Catalyst will be nerfed again because of Quickness

[Sunshine.5014]

Mechanist is very OP in PvE right now, but it won't be nerfed, because it has to trait to get Alac.

Catalyst has access to (very little) quickness without traiting. This means a seasoned group will run 1 heal Alac + 4 Catalyst DPS. Even without boon duration, that would cover the quickness, while still maximizing DPS.

ANet will look at it and nerf Catalyst for "overperforming".

Solution: make it so the Jade Sphere doesn't give boon to allies by default. When traits, give allies boons, make it follow the Catalyst, and bigger range.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Sunshine.5014

[Infusion.7149]

I don't want to keep reading the "Mechanist OP" propaganda. It really isn't OP. Alac mech only puts out barrier every 3s with the mech and for 434 if you don't have healing power (all non-heal mech builds do not). Barrier Burst which accompanies the trait was nerfed already to the same base 434 value per pulse and has a 3.75 second cast time (as long as meteor shower for a support skill) and is the sole source of fury on the meta variants. A full heal mech outputs ~260 a second barrier to the party with barrier engine assuming the mech stays close to the group and remains alive. It's a similar case with the mace, where it outputs 434 barrier with no heal power if you connect the whole auto chain (<250/second without quickness and with quickness around 460/second accounting for 0.9s total activation and barrier to mech which means ~230/second per player). Zero healing alac ren can put out close to 600/second with soulcleave (~800 per second on cele alac) and the base healing orbs on staff are around 400 on the auto chain for power alac. Zero heal power scourges put out 1.2K barriers every <8s with Sand Cascade with additional ~600 barriers every time a sand shade is made (below 7 seconds). If you have an issue with med kit that's a core engineer skill and when using it you don't receive barrier from mace nor do you do any damage whatsoever.

The Jade Sphere doesn't need to follow the catalyst and it sure doesn't need its general boons removed, all the boons are relatively low value save for quickness and protection (might, 5s fury when traited, resolution, short duration base 4s resistance, vigor arguably better but requires trait and is 5s base duration). You'd have roughly the same effect as running triple radiance dragonhunter "FMW" as DPS compared with triple catalyst save for quickness (resolution, fury, might) if the phase is short enough. "Feel My Wrath" is 3s duration (6s on person using it) on a 30 cooldown. Deploy Jade Sphere is 5s quickness if all of it hits with 15s cooldown. That also doesn't include double condi FB with Mantra of Potence (12s base cooldown , 2.5s base duration per charge) or quickness harbingers for example (fury+quickness, some might) where running a quick harbinger with a DPS harbinger averages to around 36K DPS currently. Catalyst would need to push out 39K+ on all hitbox sizes (as in before the nerfs) and 30K+ on quickness builds to compete with the likes of 33K quick harbinger and 30 to 33K (with allies) cQB. The places catalyst are most likely to be used such as on Keep Construct, Conjured Amalgamate , and Vale Guardian (which would benefit greatly from the orb change) are static targets at least for 5 seconds of Jade Sphere.

Due to the quote here by Josh Davis: "Generally speaking, a build that is a DPS/support hybrid does about 3/4s the damage of a pure DPS build." - https://www.pcgamer.com/the-future-of-guild-wars-2-arenanet-announces-return-of-season-1-and-teases-next-expansion/
I would say instead of changing catalyst repeatedly, quickness firebrands are probably both going to be scaled back by ~10% to 28-30K or so to be inline with StM chrono and quickness scrapper in terms of sustained damage.

The only usability and balance improvement I can see that should be done with respect to boon application is quickness moved to Spectacular Sphere so that pure DPS builds cannot output quickness or stack. Moving quickness onto Spectacular Sphere means people don't need to be inside the radius for the entire duration for quickness uptime ; 360 radius would be better than the current 240 radius but it would be far more usable if the quickness applied on cast. I would rather have half cooldown on Jade Sphere when Sphere specialist is used rather than double boon duration in its current iteration since it allows for more repositioning.
 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Dadnir.5038]

The logic of the OP is sound... It's true that the quickness being baseline (without investment) might lead catalyst to be nerfed.

Infusion's idea to swap the sphere's pulsed boons with Spectacular Sphere's boons could work (in fact the nerf to the sphere CD could even have been avoided this way).

Edited March 27, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[lLobo.7960]

IMO, have the Jade sphere have two states: active and passive. 

In passive state, it floats near the catalyst (as the scraper function gyro) and provides 1 boom every time it gains 2 energy (2 seconds ICD). Boom is to the catalyst only and based on attunement. The sphere passive boom changes with the catalyst attunment.

When activated (ground target AoE) the sphere drains 2 energy per second, provides a combo field in the area, based on attunment, so no aoe boons. Its a way for the catalyst to get an easy field to do combos and get the benefits of it at the cost of its self boon generation. When active, the sphere does not change attunements when the catalyst changes, and cannot gain energy. The sphere becomes passive when energy is completely depleted or recalled (F5).

When active, using the F5 again will recall the sphere to the passive state. Have a 4s CD on it. In this way you can easily reposition the sphere or use it just for the combo.

Now make the AoE boons go into the Spectacular Sphere (competing with the aura dps trait and making a full boon support).

 In this way, catalyst can use the sphere for combos at the cost of its own boon generation, or it can trait the sphere to provide boons to the group at the cost of its own boons and a dps trait. It allows the catalyst to focus on a single boon (letting the sphere drain out in a single attunement) or many (by recalling and redeploying the sphere in a different attunement).

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by lLobo.7960

[Jski.6180]

It will likely be nerfed mostly because its an ele class and for what ever reason anet realty goes out of there way to keep the ele class weaker then the mean of balance.

What wrong with Mechanist has more to do with just how over power the kits are atm. They never got a real nerf from the 2020 patch.

[Sunshine.5014]

12 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

long post about barrier

You're missing the point. The point is there is no way you can run 4 DPS Mech and get Alac covered. However, you can run 4 DPS Catalyst and get Quickness covered. That's the difference. Mech has to trait to get Alac; Catalyst doesn't. 4 DPS Catalyst getting 100% quickness while doing top DPS in speed run is how the spec will get nerfed again.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

He's talking about it too.

 

I also think quickness shouldn't be "baseline" but in traits (Spectacular Sphere/Sphere Specialist) so you'll need to build for support rather than have it for free in your baseline toolkit.
Also because those traits feel really bad right now; 10sec mights, 5sec fury ...  Same with the +50% BD for 1 or 2 boons every 15sec, when you can already pass some BD with fractals potions or diviner+Elemental Empowerement (+moa stance). Who cares ? As you said you don't need those traits with 3-4 catalysts.

Spectacular sphere : quickness on air attunement when activated. (and mights, resistance etc)
Sphere Specialist :  decrease CD, decrease energy cost and some gimmick effect (double combo, or people in range get a +120 concentration, share second effect of augments, or something) but no more +50%BD.
Or Sphere Specialist : grant all boons from all elements. (I mean why 2 boons when mechanist, FB etc can fart 10 boons every 10sec. )

(And to increase Jade Sphere alternatives. 
Staunch Aura; Jade Sphere becomes Jade Shroud. Gain an aura bases on your current element when activated and break stun. Gain stability when you gain aura.  READ THIS ANET. MAKE JADE SPHERE MULTI PURPOSES)

Edited March 28, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[The Boz.2038]

Air orb: Grant fury instead of quickness.
Trait: Orbs also grant quickness.

There. Fixed.

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Air orb: Grant fury instead of quickness.
Trait: Orbs also grant quickness.

There. Fixed.

You mean Spheres, not orbs 😄 but agree.

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, SeTect.5918 said:

You mean Spheres, not orbs 😄 but agree.

Balls.

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

You're missing the point. The point is there is no way you can run 4 DPS Mech and get Alac covered. However, you can run 4 DPS Catalyst and get Quickness covered. That's the difference. Mech has to trait to get Alac; Catalyst doesn't. 4 DPS Catalyst getting 100% quickness while doing top DPS in speed run is how the spec will get nerfed again.

If you mean for 5 man content I doubt you are running 4 catalysts, especially not on 100CM. Not having banner also means you are missing ferocity (6.7% crit in the case of missing banners) ; not having frost spirit is 5% DPS loss as catalyst is a power build.
In 10 man content you'll want at least a banner warrior until the summer patch.

Anyhow you're assuming that DPS catalyst is going to bench as high as before nerfs (38-39K outside hitbox when played perfect, 43-44K when the hitbox is favorable). It is quite likely it ends up around 36-37K which is the average power DPS (even weaver is 37K). We'll see tomorrow.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Serephen.3420]

18 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

You're missing the point. The point is there is no way you can run 4 DPS Mech and get Alac covered. However, you can run 4 DPS Catalyst and get Quickness covered. That's the difference. Mech has to trait to get Alac; Catalyst doesn't. 4 DPS Catalyst getting 100% quickness while doing top DPS in speed run is how the spec will get nerfed again.

An idealistic scenario unlikely to happen but anet would probably think that anyways. I'm pretty sure some of the suggestions asking for quickness to be moved to spectacular sphere will be a likely change in the near future. It's quite easily the simplest and most logical change.

[Sunshine.5014]

On 3/28/2022 at 7:16 PM, Serephen.3420 said:

An idealistic scenario unlikely to happen but anet would probably think that anyways. I'm pretty sure some of the suggestions asking for quickness to be moved to spectacular sphere will be a likely change in the near future. It's quite easily the simplest and most logical change.

Proof. And it only takes 3 Catalyst, not 4. Catalyst will get nerfed because of the free group quickness without having to trait.

Jade Sphere boons by default should give boons to only the Catalyst. With the Sphere trait, then it gives 5 targets boons. Then we can revert the nerf on Sphere cooldown and make it more fun again. It also allows ANet to remove the energy mechanics, since the boons duration can be tuned independently. Via trait.

[Ace.1784]

20 minutes ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

Proof. And it only takes 3 Catalyst, not 4. Catalyst will get nerfed because of the free group quickness without having to trait.

Jade Sphere boons by default should give boons to only the Catalyst. With the Sphere trait, then it gives 5 targets boons. Then we can revert the nerf on Sphere cooldown and make it more fun again. It also allows ANet to remove the energy mechanics, since the boons duration can be tuned independently. Via trait.

For whatever reason, people on this forum really underrate Catalyst's strength and they are missing out on its power. It's crazy strong.

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, Vinteros Asteano.1209 said:

For whatever reason, people on this forum really underrate Catalyst's strength and they are missing out on its power. It's crazy strong.

Balance perception inertia. It was bad, so it will continue to be perceived as bad until and unless it gets so horribly broken that it completely dominates the meta. Then it will be viewed as OP and have regular complaint threads about being OP until it gets nerfed so harshly that people stop playing it altogether.

People in general are really bad at recognising when something has actually been brought back into balance, but people either haven't learned how to fully utilise it yet (in the case of bad builds being buffed) or people are still playing it because it's still viable and it's what they're used to playing (in the case of good builds being nerfed - consider that for most people, if a nerf is heavy enough that it overrides the practice a player has already placed into that build, it's probably actually at a point where it'd be a little weak if not for the benefit of experience).

[Serephen.3420]

I sure hope it won't get nerfed lol.

[Jski.6180]

At this point i kind of hope it dose so ppl stop buying eod and maybe the next expansion as well. Also i am tried of seeing core ele nerfed. After the last update i am not buying eod.

[Sunshine.5014]

With sadness: I told you so.

[Serephen.3420]

5 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

With sadness: I told you so.

With sadness I must agree😔

[SeTect.5918]

22 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

With sadness: I told you so.

Well actually they solved the issue and still nerfed it...Not that this would be any better tho....

[Kuya.6495]

OP spoke the truth and nobody listened until it was too late

Edited June 27, 2022 by Kuya.6495

[Gustaff.6581]

Dude, Catalyst is so fun with quickness, we have enough fury generators, i dont want to lose quickness....

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

OP spoke to the truth and nobody listened until it was too late

The ele community is always listening but there no real power here. There no way to get anet devs fired or at least reprehended for failing there jobs. You cant vote bad devs out. The best thing ppl can do is talk to ncsoft or find out who the whaels are supporting gw2 and try to talk them out of spending money on it. I know i not spend any money on this game but for the first 2 expansion and there no way i am getting eod at this rate. I suggest not getting EOD to any one who is already playing the game.