Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[Geckoo.6018]

Mechanically speaking the fight is almost fine. It needs to be less RNG dependant when it comes to tails, switching sides and CC bars. With that said, more damage = less rng, less room for it to happen since you kill stuff faster or hit checkpoints fast enough to avoid it, but considering that the timer is really tight and there is no room to recover from mistakes it would probably be a good idea to limit that kind of disruptive special attacks further along with some change to the tail HP so that less damage is required (=less players).

There is a learning curve for the whole community, just as it happens with many other meta events and just as those, you'll always have clueless players as well as experienced ones and usually things balance out. I don't think this is actually happening with this meta and to me, that's the main issue.

They certainly need to look into completition rates, but more importantly, they need to make sure that there is a wide variety of squads completing it. Having a high completition rate is pointless if that ends up happening only for hyper organized squads one hour before the meta starts, mostly because those squads are rare and do not exist for every single meta window.

The goal should be to have a wider variety of squads participating and being able to win.

For starters the whole preparation phase should not give any kind of combat benefit, this only creates the false sensation that being ahead of time with a squad full of people with 10 stacks is required and that does not help when less organized squads form just when the countdown starts. The buffs can exist tied to the red events once the meta starts, but not before.

Making the whole thing more rewarding is also important. Each red event and even certain checkpoints during the fight should give enough reward so that even failing the fight is still worth anyones time. Better and more rewards = more player interest. More players means more squads and that will eventually lead that healthy mixed variety of players that balance out each other and are able to succeed more often, as it happens with almost any other meta in the game.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Geckoo.6018

[Zok.4956]

8 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Hmm. No average person attempts running through a wall repeatedly -- everyone will go grab a ladder after their first failed attempt.

Or that person just goes somewhere else after he/she was hurt too much.

 

8 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

ANet obviously wants to encourage every player to take a deeper look at the game's basics and rejoice once they realize how much easier they will have it with a few build tweaks and proper equipment, even in a simple open-world environment. You don't have to be "pro" to improve -- some people seem to have a misconception about that.

I appreciate that the developers are trying to convey the basics of game combat, but they don't do a good enough job.

After 10 years Anet made now a small tutorial about combo fields and yet in most open world fights there is so much visual noise and overlapping aoe fields that you can not see them properly.

Anet made now a small tutorial about break bars/cc. But some build/classes have better access to CC than others.

Learning a fight mechanic is one thing. But how to "build tweaks and proper equipment" the game teaches you NOTHING about.

To be able to create and tweak a build is not "average" but "pro". But this is so important because how badly the builds in GW2 are balanced. Good DPS can easily be 10 times higher than average DPS. 

How can a player see if "+10 power" is better or worse then "+5% critical damage" for an open world encounter where they do not know how much boons are flying around? The game teaches players nothing about this. Sure, Anet added the golems. But to use and setup them properly still needs (a lot) knowledge and time. To see how good/bad I am doing in a real fight (as DPS, healer, support etc) I have to use an external tool like "ArcDPS" (I use ArcDPS, but I hate it, that my game crashes after an update if I forget to also update ArcDPS and that Anet took the "easy way out" with this).

A streamer called "mukluk" (spelled correctly, I hope) made a 20k-dps-autoattack-engi-mech build a few days ago. I checked it in DE and other real world bosses and it did quite high DPS with just autoattacking. If everyone would be running the DE meta with this build auto-attacking, there would be no discussion about lacking DPS. I am sure, that build will be nerved. But the point is: Why is the game not helping players to play a decent build, so they can contribue to a fight without "grinding" for the right gear and without complicated rotations? It is often in a fight more about having the right build than having skill. The game teaches and helps players nothing in this matter.

And "grinding for the right gear" is still a thing in GW2. I keep forgetting this myself (because I have 3 sets of legendary armor,  full legendary trinkets and lots of unused ascended weapon boxes and can play around with my builds at no cost) but the best/required stats are not really easy accessible for every player. Even if they go to external websites like metabattle and snowcrows and try to use some of those builds. Sure, players can tweak. But only if they know how. 

And if Anet wanted players to use more and better builds for different encounters, they would give players more free build/gear/template-slots instead of monetizing them heavily.

So, again: Trying to teach players (in a fun way) how the basic game fight mechanics work is a good thing. But I think Anet is (not yet) doing a good job with this. The length of this thread (and all the other similar threads before this one) is prove for that. I hope the game/Anet will improve a lot in this matter before the Steam release. 

 

 

 

[titje.2745]

10 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

 

And "grinding for the right gear" is still a thing in GW2. I keep forgetting this myself (because I have 3 sets of legendary armor,  full legendary trinkets and lots of unused ascended weapon boxes and can play around with my builds at no cost) but the best/required stats are not really easy accessible for every player. Even if they go to external websites like metabattle and snowcrows and try to use some of those builds. Sure, players can tweak. But only if they know how. 

 

 

 

 

I created a post about legendary gear for open world players not long ago. On guildwars 2 forum i got many likes. I then shared it at Reddit and they all downvoted me. I didn’t expect this from a nice community. 
everyone are able to obtain legendary gear with games modes they like. Open world players have to go to a place where they don’t want to play (I think) sure I want legendary gear. But I also have a real life where I have to work. I am now starting wvw and PvP because I think before we open world players would be able to get legendary gear from out game mode we are a year ahead. So in that time I can have a set already. 
And yes. Everyone can just stat swap. And I have to create a new set everytime. While gold income is not that high for open world. And I am most times out of spirit shards. I have 70 left now. I am busy for legendary trinkets. Have 1 bloody shard. Long before I have another one. So right now I am not able for new ascended gear. But it’s hard for elitists to imagine others situation. And the droprate for vision crystal is ridiculous low from princess, herta, and other converting items. Haven’t obtained 1 in 6+ months. While wvwers etc are obtaining easy ascended boxes for salvage. 
raiders are now 7 years ahead while open world players are still not have an option for legendary gear with content they like. 

[Astralporing.1957]

32 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

But the point is: Why is the game not helping players to play a decent build, so they can contribue to a fight without "grinding" for the right gear and without complicated rotations? It is often in a fight more about having the right build than having skill. The game teaches and helps players nothing in this matter.

That's because the build system this game has makes it impossible. Or, at least, extremely impractical. The game would have to supply builds to players, but to do that, it would have to decide which builds are good for them first. And that cannot be done automatically - someone would have to do it by hand every time the balance switches (or new builds are found out).

Notice, btw, that devs often have no real idea what the results of balance changes they introduced will be like, so they would have to wait till those results materialize before adjusting the builds offered to players. Which means half of the time those builds would not be up to date.

And it would have to be done that way, because actually teaching players about the complexities of the system is beyond what the game can do. It's way too complex for that.

The best game could do is to make it way easier for players to exchange their builds between each other.

32 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

And if Anet wanted players to use more and better builds for different encounters, they would give players more free build/gear/template-slots instead of monetizing them heavily.

Yes, when i heard they were to finally introduce the template system, i thought it will be a great help in dissemination of good builds' knowledge among the community. They might have even added stuff like "guild build template archives" etc, to help with that.

But no, they preferred to go for shortterm cash influx at the cost to the game.

[Erise.5614]

18 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And it would have to be done that way, because actually teaching players about the complexities of the system is beyond what the game can do. It's way too complex for that.

I mean... no!?

Games with more complex game dynamics exist and manage to teach players just fine.

If it was genuinely too complex to be taught then it is a design mistake and should be simplified. 

[Ultramex.1506]

Eh i'm just glad i managed to beat it 3 times before the future nerf.

Haven't felt this much adrenaline and joy since idk how long!

Edited March 30, 2022 by Ultramex.1506

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

So you are actively doing the thing that should not be pushed onto open worlders and getting lucky, your post gives us nothing to the discussion. 

If a person joins a group that sets the goal of doing the meta it's not luck. If without any organization, no commander, nothing you beat the meta then that can be considered luck.

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 The meta should not require alx or quickness support, it should not require "big dps carries" in order to win, it should not require RNG going well in order to win.

I'd love to see how well other metas would go without the big DPS carries. Gerent, Octovine, you see each lane having players people doing 20k or more, a bunch around 10-15k, the rest just tickling the boss. What do you think how well those would go if everyone was just throwing Ranger axes at the boss?

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 And there is no point to do this meta a second time so saying 10 times is pointless unless you really really care about pointless achievements. 

Then don't do it, finish it once, be happy, no need to complain about it being hard when you have no urge to do it.

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

All it should require is people doing mechanics, and people ARE doing mechanics and are massively failing. They are trying their hardest and failing. 

If they are trying their hardest and still fail then they are just not good enough to do it. We are a month into EoD and the amount of accounts that completed the meta - on GW2Efficiency, so the actual value is probably different - is above 10%, which is a bit less than 7% less than the accounts that finished EoD.

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

They are being forced into joining the squads. Forced to play the game differently then they have played it for nine years. It is not a good thing. 

There are other open world metas(TT, Dragon's Stand) that also ""force"" you to join squads, you are not forced to play the game differently. You can keep bashing your forehead into the boss the same way you could do it for years before.

2 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 It is not a good thing. It still needs to be nerfed and changed, her health needs to be lowered, the tail should hurt her health total. 

It has been nerfed enough. If people avoided getting downed by heavily telegraphed attacks then it would be even easier.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 hour ago, Geckoo.6018 said:

Mechanically speaking the fight is almost fine. It needs to be less RNG dependant when it comes to tails, switching sides and CC bars. With that said, more damage = less rng, less room for it to happen since you kill stuff faster or hit checkpoints fast enough to avoid it, but considering that the timer is really tight and there is no room to recover from mistakes it would probably be a good idea to limit that kind of disruptive special attacks further along with some change to the tail HP so that less damage is required (=less players).

There is a learning curve for the whole community, just as it happens with many other meta events and just as those, you'll always have clueless players as well as experienced ones and usually things balance out. I don't think this is actually happening with this meta and to me, that's the main issue.

They certainly need to look into completition rates, but more importantly, they need to make sure that there is a wide variety of squads completing it. Having a high completition rate is pointless if that ends up happening only for hyper organized squads one hour before the meta starts, mostly because those squads are rare and do not exist for every single meta window.

The goal should be to have a wider variety of squads participating and being able to win.

For starters the whole preparation phase should not give any kind of combat benefit, this only creates the false sensation that being ahead of time with a squad full of people with 10 stacks is required and that does not help when less organized squads form just when the countdown starts. The buffs can exist tied to the red events once the meta starts, but not before.

Making the whole thing more rewarding is also important. Each red event and even certain checkpoints during the fight should give enough reward so that even failing the fight is still worth anyones time. Better and more rewards = more player interest. More players means more squads and that will eventually lead that healthy mixed variety of players that balance out each other and are able to succeed more often, as it happens with almost any other meta in the game.

How can you STILL be saying reduce the tail RNG when it's SIGNIFICANTLY rarer in EVERY circumstance, regardless. You claim "tail", but what you're actually dealing with is lack of awareness and DPS. It does NOT take long to kill the tail, if people aren't wandering aimlessly like a bunch of samurai RPers.

Edited March 29, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 hour ago, titje.2745 said:

Open world players have to go to a place where they don’t want to play (I think) sure I want legendary gear

If 3/4 game "modes" are places where you "don't want to play", then maybe it's a YOU issue instead of a GAME issue?

[The Boz.2038]

7 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

If 3/4 game "modes" are places where you "don't want to play", then maybe it's a YOU issue instead of a GAME issue?

If you stretch categories and definitions, anything is true!
94% of the game world surface is open world!
 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

25 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If you stretch categories and definitions, anything is true!
94% of the game world surface is open world!
 

Most of the game content is what you make of it. By that definition, WvW >>> Open world in terms of content. 
Also, space does not equal time developed or time spent playing in a 1:1 ratio. "If you stretch categories!" or how was it, again.

No one's forcing you to touch the harder (-er, not hard) content of the game. But don't expect to reap the rewards then, either. It's how it goes everywhere.

Accept it or switch games.

Edited March 29, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Erise.5614]

36 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I'd love to see how well other metas would go without the big DPS carries. Gerent, Octovine, you see each lane having players people doing 20k or more, a bunch around 10-15k, the rest just tickling the boss. What do you think how well those would go if everyone was just throwing Ranger axes at the boss?

I'm commanding those regularly for a meta train. Usually have ~40 people in squad so I can record a decent picture.

20k are not common. Maybe every second or third time. There's maybe 5-8 people who do >10k. And a vast majority (30+) who deal around 2k.

Considering we're often one shotting gerent and do a flawless octo with all lanes preparing, south killing in one burn, everyone else clearing I'd say they'd work out just fine if not a single player was dealing >8k. Might get a bit closer to the timer but still very achievable. 

The "everyone is just lazy and getting carried" thing is an urban legend within circles of experienced players. 

Even Dragon's Stand you can generally just show up and complete it. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean... no!?

Games with more complex game dynamics exist and manage to teach players just fine.

Different players. This system for example would be completely fine in a game targeted at a small group of hardcores.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

If it was genuinely too complex to be taught then it is a design mistake and should be simplified. 

Yes, it is and it should. That's unlikely to happen, though.

[Herd.3081]

I don't think it's a problem to have literally one OW event in the game that is hard. I just think they should improve even further the rewards both of the final boss and the pre events.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Herd.3081
typo

[LHidekiRyuga.3726]

That's its nature, some people likes garbage 

[Jartgo.8921]

Do I've been reading a lot of the comments people have had on this meta and frankly it is not a hard meta. Calling it hard would be wrong, the mechanics are pretty simple compared to other games and content to be honest. 

But saying that I have still yet to get the clear myself and frankly I think it just has too much going on. 

I don't think a breakbar should be allowed to happen during a tail phase for example. When a fight can be decided based on what the boss does it really does ruin the entire thing, the rng Involved is a little too much for my liking. 

My last run failed because of this rng where tail, bubbles and whirlpools happened in the last 5% the amount of people that was just simply taken out of the fight right their and then killed the run. 

 

The fight is fun, I do enjoy it a lot. But maybe we can just tone down some of the bs that is within it. And then if it still causes problems maybe look at nerfing the health or adding an extra min or two. Either way right now i truly think something needs to be done. 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

After watching people constantly fail the hide mechanic on the junkyard boss, it is pretty obvious the playerbase has a huge willful ignorance problem.

Dragons end is for organized group who are willing to put in the time to learn the content, have decent builds, and do the preevents to get the damage buff.

The dps check is beleive is only 5k.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

The dps check is beleive is only 5k.

It's 7k, but that includes all the downtime during which you can;t attack the boss, so in reality it's higher.

[Jartgo.8921]

3 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

After watching people constantly fail the hide mechanic on the junkyard boss, it is pretty obvious the playerbase has a huge willful ignorance problem.

Dragons end is for organized group who are willing to put in the time to learn the content, have decent builds, and do the preevents to get the damage buff.

The dps check is beleive is only 5k.

I have seen thee fully organised groups still fail. Do good dps, do the mechanics well and they still can't get it. There is frankly just too much rng in the fight that stops the players from hitting the boss or doing any thing. And far to many mechanics that can overlap that really shouldn't 

[Gibson.4036]

19 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

After watching people constantly fail the hide mechanic on the junkyard boss, it is pretty obvious the playerbase has a huge willful ignorance problem.

Dragons end is for organized group who are willing to put in the time to learn the content, have decent builds, and do the preevents to get the damage buff.

The dps check is beleive is only 5k.

I’ve only done the junkyard golem once. People were helpfully telling people in chat to hide in the blue circles. Even knowing about the mechanic, there was a time or two where I ended up too far away, had got knocked down, movement skills and dodges on cooldown, for whatever reason just couldn’t make it to a blue circle on time.

Multiply that times the mass of people doing the event, and what looks like willful ignorance may just be people struggling with all the ground markers, that mechanic that pushes people, managing their own skills, trying to revive downed players, and just missing the mechanic that they do know is there.

Yes, there’s a few that just stand in front of the boss and attack, but I’m not sure this idea that there are masses of people herpderping their way through events on autoattack is accurate.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Bobzitto.8571]

I came late to the party and missed the meta pre-nerf, but my experience so far is that organized groups get it. I've had kills with almost 6min to spare, and only had one fail with an organized group, because a lot of us had a random crash (the event timed out with soo-won at 2%). 

 

The event is, frankly, not hard. There are maybe 3 or 4 deadly AoEs you need to get out of and a CC phase and target switching to the tail (which, granted, could knock a couple % off the boss as a reward but oh well). Thing is, the community as a whole has gotten used to meta events being essentially free loot rides with very little effort needed. Players who are used to harder content will quickly adapt, but the guy who has spent the last 7 years playing MM necro with full toughness and vitality gear will struggle and might not even be willing to learn much.

 

Even though I'm personally against it, for the health of the community, they should add a few minutes to the timer and/or make destroying the tail hurt the boss. 

[Kate.3679]

I've succeeded the last 12 metas I've attempted with the first group I could join on LFG. In fact in the latest run the squad commander took the time to explain mechanics but did not ask for quickness/alac and didn't do subgroups either.  We cleared with around 2 minutes left on the timer. I have this run recorded if anyone wants to see it. People are massively overstating the difficulty of the meta, even with bad tail rng. The tail won't respawn that quick if you all move to it the instant it spawns.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

This sounds remarkably similar to another meta the game has... It's Dragon Stand.

[rune.9572]

My autoattack alone with all the DE buffs does over 15k DPS, and people are complaining about dps requirements. 

big lol

Edited March 29, 2022 by rune.9572

[rune.9572]

Also the problem is willful ignorance of the playerbase. Got to Echovald and watch swathes of people get bonked by the golem repeatedly until they're hard dead from downed penalty (I wonder how many people here even know what that is btw), with 0 attempts to maybe try and understand what killed them and why.

GW2 playerbase just wants to show up and get their participation reward, and that is true whether you like it or not. So anet makes everyting into 1111 fiesta and the same playerbase then complains there's "co content" having "beaten" it all in 2 dayts total by just showing up 😄

And don't try to argue about it, all these complaint threads are enough of a proof that the playerbase is simply vapid to the extreme.

Edited March 29, 2022 by rune.9572