Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, rune.9572 said:

Also the problem is willful ignorance of the playerbase. Got to Echovald and watch swathes of people get bonked by the golem repeatedly until they're hard dead from downed penalty (I wonder how many people here even know what that is btw), with 0 attempts to maybe try and understand what killed them and why.

GW2 playerbase just wants to show up and get their participation reward, and that is true whether you like it or not.

Ah, yes.

The proud stance of "everyone is just an idiot and these filthy casuals ruin the game!"

Finally someone said it! 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[rune.9572]

If you feel offended by someone suggesting that you want participation rewards from showing up to a shallow superhero fantasy then perhaps you should reflect upon why it offends you. And stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say, it's not cool man.

Edited March 29, 2022 by rune.9572

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, rune.9572 said:

If you feel offended by being told that you want participation rewards from showing up to a shallow superhero fantasy then perhaps you should reflect upon why it offends you.

I think it's a very bad take because it promotes exclusion from open world content. Which isn't good for the game long term.

So someone gets a participation trophy. So what? Take your first place trophy, feel good about fake internet points going up morer fasterer than the points of others and everyone is happy.

GW2 isn't a competition. It's an entertainment product. Absolutely nothing happening in the game matters so long as it doesn't affect how much everyone can enjoy the game. And as long as enough people enjoy the game we get to all enjoy this magnificent online world with servers that are in fact running. And even receiving regular content updates!

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[rune.9572]

"My enjoyment is more important than your" the thread

At least these forums are great containment zone so anet doesn't have to read it.

Edited March 29, 2022 by rune.9572

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, rune.9572 said:

"My enjoyment is more important than your" the thread

I don't actually know why I'm even wasting life replying here XD

How is your enjoyment positively impacted by others failing? And how is it negatively impacted by others succeeding an open world meta? 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Zok.4956]

 

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Notice, btw, that devs often have no real idea what the results of balance changes they introduced will be like, so they would have to wait till those results materialize before adjusting the builds offered to players

Yes, I have noticed it, a few times over the years. And I have been told a few times that this was an important reason why the eSports-community left sPvP and GW2 some years ago.

But it doesn't have to be this way for ever.

Just as an example: I see it at my workplace, that we are doing, fully automatic, hundreds and even thousands  of software tests as part of our build and deployment pipeline to make sure that software changes do not break important parts of the software/system.

I am pretty sure Anet has something similar and they could setup a system where they fully automatic do tests of different builds when/before they are doing balance changes. And then this system could tell, if there are outliars or "broken" builds that should be looked into before going live.

Sure, this would not be perfect. No testing system is. But Anet could add all builds from metabattle, snowcrows etc. and could also add results from the live game data analysis (builds with increased popularity, builds with too high DPS etc..) and after 3-4 months of collection/setup/preparation work the devs that work with this system would have quite a good understanding from this "builds-balance-testing-system", how some balance changes would affect most builds before the changes go live. 

 

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

That's because the build system this game has makes it impossible. Or, at least, extremely impractical. The game would have to supply builds to players, but to do that, it would have to decide which builds are good for them first. And that cannot be done automatically - someone would have to do it by hand every time the balance switches (or new builds are found out).

I would do it the other way around: I would define (and promote) some "preferred, decent builds" for "open world" (and other game parts, maybe roles), etc. easy rotation, maybe with autottacks etc. and then I would make sure that the gear stats (inlcuding runes/sigils/trinkets) of this builds would be easily available in exotic rarity in AH, for a few gold. This gear then would become my "baseline" in comparing other builds and I would make sure (because I can just let the "builds-balance-testing-system" from above check this), that this "baseline" will continue to be decent after balance updates.

Sure, this addresses only a part of the problems in GW2 and in reality it is much more complicated and I do not think that Anet will go this way. But it could be practical and could be a (first) step in the right direction. One can dream. 😎

 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

11 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

How is your enjoyment positively impacted by others failing? And how is it negatively impacted by others succeeding an open world meta? 

I don't remember reading "I enjoy others failing" anywhere. Being told that a meta requiring more than mashing 1 is fine doesn't mean people enjoy others failing.

Here's another run where we succeeded with ~4 minutes left. The average squad DPS wasn't Raid level as some suggest, it was only around 12k per player, could be below that. We had 6 Tails and no CCs.
Seems perfectly doable.

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I don't remember reading "I enjoy others failing" anywhere. Being told that a meta requiring more than mashing 1 is fine doesn't mean people enjoy others failing.

Here's another run where we succeeded with ~4 minutes left. The average squad DPS wasn't Raid level as some suggest, it was only around 12k per player, could be below that. We had 6 Tails and no CCs.
Seems perfectly doable.

It seems you sent the link while uploading. It's not a valid link.

But also. 12k average is insane. That's somewhere around 300% the normal average. Nothing anyone can do on map bridges that gap. 

"enjoy others failing" is implicit. Wanting only one version of the content and having that as the default point that everyone is pushed to means it's either approachable or has most people failing. If someone makes it out to be "their enjoyment or mine" then the point is between having most players enjoy it vs having them enjoy it. 

Though I am genuinely curious. Is your enjoyment really depending on higher numbers on average? Because the obvious point is that the difference really isn't skill usage. It's 80%+ gear and setup. Like, there's 15k-20k autoattack only builds. It's really not about skill.

I have a hard time seeing how other peoples gear could affect open world enjoyment. Or why it should.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Ashantara.8731]

5 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

Do you notice a suspicious lack of something in your list?

You didn't list DPS. [...]

As my follow-up post mentioned, I do count in DPS:

 

[Erise.5614]

4 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

As my follow-up post mentioned, I do count in DPS:

 

My point was about what the game and this expansion is teaching. Which doesn't include DPS. There's no DPS checks in the story, no context about how to optimize your DPS. Not even an NPC who throws a few words at you like the defiance training grounds. 

Or rather, it seems to but in the worst possible eat or die format. Repeating a key mistake that causes fractals and raids to be so underpopulated. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It seems you sent the link while uploading. It's not a valid link.

But also. 12k average is insane. That's somewhere around 300% the normal average. Nothing anyone can do on map bridges that gap. 

"enjoy others failing" is implicit. Wanting only one version of the content and having that as the default point that everyone is pushed to means it's either approachable or has most people failing. If someone makes it out to be "their enjoyment or mine" then the point is between having most players enjoy it vs having them enjoy it. 

Though I am genuinely curious. Is your enjoyment really depending on higher numbers on average? Because the obvious point is that the difference really isn't skill usage. It's 80%+ gear and setup. Like, there's 15k-20k autoattack only builds. It's really not about skill.

I have a hard time seeing how other peoples gear could affect open world enjoyment. Or why it should.

If I'd enjoy people failing I'd be pounding my desk for the original version of the meta. 
The link to the screenshot should work now, I also calculated the average DPS, I overestimated it, it's 9k, not 12k. That' just 2k above the 7k "DPS check" being thrown around. 
As I said, 6 tails, no CC, average DPS of 9k and we did it with ~4 minutes left. 

There are many builds where you just auto attack and sit around 25k DPS, but those don't matter. What matters is that the game gives you 20% outgoing damage for doing 10 events, you also get 5% more damage if all lanes are maxed, the Jade Tech Offensive Buff gives 150 Power and Condi Damage. 
With all those you can't say the required damage is high.

[DerAlteSack.3572]

I think people get way to stuck up about the "need for high dps" at this meta. I think someone mentioned already that this meta needs an average dps of about 7k. Taking all the damage buffs into account that is more than achievable for the average player. Most people can probably reach this by just auto-attacking.

But you know what massivly hurts dps? Half of the people dying to wave attack or some people staying on Soo-Won when her tail is up. You can even increase DPS by quite a bit if your break her CC-Bar. These are all things that you were taught during the Seitung Province Story.

I am also pretty sure, that with sime time people will get used to it and the meta gets easier. The problem is, to keep it alive until this happens the rewards for participating in a failed attempt need to be increased by a lot.

EDIT: I also want to add, that I did this meta through the help of the LFG with mostly random people and without the need to sort people into groups with alac/quick. We nearly always managed it with ~1 minute to spare.

Edited March 29, 2022 by DerAlteSack.3572

[Erise.5614]

6 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If I'd enjoy people failing I'd be pounding my desk for the original version of the meta. 
The link to the screenshot should work now, I also calculated the average DPS, I overestimated it, it's 9k, not 12k. That' just 2k above the 7k "DPS check" being thrown around. 
As I said, 6 tails, no CC, average DPS of 9k and we did it with ~4 minutes left. 

There are many builds where you just auto attack and sit around 25k DPS, but those don't matter. What matters is that the game gives you 20% outgoing damage for doing 10 events, you also get 5% more damage if all lanes are maxed, the Jade Tech Offensive Buff gives 150 Power and Condi Damage. 
With all those you can't say the required damage is high.

I'll grab a log from a run myself. Will take a while so I'll respond to that later.

Edit: Here's a screenshot of a more average run, though with the full 2 hour loop and full buffs. Right after the top players it drops pretty much immediately to around 5k or below with occasional quick bursts pushing them above for a few seconds. https://imgur.com/a/z7K8l5o

But one thing I really need to point out and hammer home. Remember, GW2 has lots of multiplicative systems. Just like these buffs are multiplicative. Meaning, the higher your squads average DPS the more bonus DPS you get from the buff. 

A team full of inexperienced players with suboptimal builds will benefit by maybe 1k DPS per player. Whereas a different squad with just 6k dps average will benefit by ~2.1k. A raiding guild with average 15k dps will gain ~5k. 

So, the better you are the more of a joke the fight is due to these buffs. The lower your DPS the less meaningful it is. So it helps hardcore players turn the encounter into a literal joke while gatekeeping the average open world player. This would be a different story if everything was buffing your power or condi damage. As those are additive buffs and would therefore have a more even impact across the board. Though quickness and alacrity uptime would still have been major deciding factors then making a massive difference but that's another story. Point being. The buff is worse than you make it out to be for the people who need it. And extremely strong for people who don't. 

Basically, all the buffs do is increase the difference between experienced and inexperienced players. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Geckoo.6018]

2 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

How can you STILL be saying reduce the tail RNG when it's SIGNIFICANTLY rarer in EVERY circumstance, regardless. You claim "tail", but what you're actually dealing with is lack of awareness and DPS. It does NOT take long to kill the tail, if people aren't wandering aimlessly like a bunch of samurai RPers.

 

I named 3 elements, not just one. The bad RNG comes from combinations between elements, like changing sides during a tail or having a CC phase with the tail up. And i also said that the best way to counter RNG is having more damage since usually that means less room for RNG to happen.

Is not about the event being hard (it really isn't), is about being aware that you can't expect people to be willing to invest time on something with an outcome that they can't control when the chances to fail are high. This means that no matter how good you peform during the fight, you will still depend on what others do and when that dependency is so high that most of the times it ends in failure... you end up with exclusive squads, angry players and a declining interest in participation.

I insist. The only way to fix this is to make changes to increase the success rate for less organized squads and make the whole event be worth doing even if it fails. This can also mean better rewards for squads performing better, but as it is right now? is already heading into the dead meta zone.

[hardy.7469]

I haven't  been able to beat the meta but my biggest issue is it runs completely counter to the expansion.

EVERYTHING before the expansion, the story, the maps (including the metas), even the strikes, are designed to be casual, quick, and if you know what you're doing, easy enough to complete in small pickup groups of other competent players.

Then you hit this meta and you need1-2 hours, be very competent and be VERY organized. It's basically a raid in the open world.

This meta would fit in an expansion like Hearth of Thornes where everything was designed to be more difficult but this meta just... Makes no sense to what seems like the direction of EoD seem to be.

I feels like whoever designed the final meta has absolutely zero contact with the rest of the team on what they were doing.

If their goal was to make it feel like an epic conclusion, difficulty does not equal epicness. There's metas in the base game that are more epic than this fight. Dragonfall, Dragon's End and Auric Basin are more epic feeling AND rewarding. Heck Echovald's meta feels like a better balance of challenge and epicness.

 

On a side note, blocking story achievements behind this meta when it's so hard to beat, some requiring multiple wins to finish is just dumb.

Edited March 29, 2022 by hardy.7469

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

also discord requirment lol.

There is no discord requirement for anything here, so maybe stop trying to keep pushing this objectively false narrative 🙄 

[Rainbow Dragon.7268]

im in two minds for the meta in DE i hate it and its fun at the same time. like i been playing the game for 7 years and always try to keep my build up to date i'm always in ascended/legendary gear and my traits are what they should be for condi specs i play [yes i been condi main since i started power is boring to me] but needing to arrange an open world meta like a raid that just puts me off i completed the meta before and after any changes and both times it just felt like it takes waaay too long for way little reward 1 antique stone now laughable i wouldn't farm it alot tbh def not daily maybe once every 2 weeks now if i can be bothered with it. the main reason being all the prep time it get's super boring super fast.the boss fight that's the fun part maybe make the prep time a little bit less snoozefest? i dunno

[Kanok.3027]

People still complaining about the meta. gf and I tried it a few times (about 3 or 4) before finally getting a win (with 40s left). We found a commander, with lieutenants, that were telling people what needed to be done and how to do things. We got it. I've heard other people say they have tried over a dozen times and still failed. We just LFG'd it and learned the mechanics as we went along. Seems fine to us and we're not hard core players. We're semi-casual. Just wanted to have fun and get our turtles. We did and so did a friend of ours. Pre-nerf, however...

[mindcircus.1506]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

But also. 12k average is insane. That's somewhere around 300% the normal average. Nothing anyone can do on map bridges that gap. 

*EDIT*
question answered later by one of your other posts. nm

Edited March 29, 2022 by mindcircus.1506

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Where are you getting these averages?

My own observation commanding open world meta trains regularly. 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

39 minutes ago, hardy.7469 said:

Then you hit this meta and you need1-2 hours, be very competent and be VERY organized. It's basically a raid in the open world.

Wrong. You're required to have nowhere near raid levels of competence or organization.

This is just something people toss around to feel, and make others feel, better about themselves. For all the wrong reasons, mind you.

Edited March 29, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

4 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Wrong. You're required to be nowhere near raid levels of competent or organized.

This is just something people toss around to feel, and make others feel, better about themselves. For all the wrong reasons, mind you.

I really want to see what people would say if Anet just brought this meta up to the level of let's say Deimos.
Up the required DPS to ~15k minimum and add mechanics that instantly wipe your attempt, don't let people revive mid-encounter. Add enemies or mechanics that force you to run healers for each subgroup.
Also remove the Jade Tech Buffs and the free +25% damage.

That'd be interesting.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

3 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I really want to see what people would say if Anet just brought this meta up to the level of let's say Deimos.
Up the required DPS to ~15k minimum and add mechanics that instantly wipe your attempt, don't let people revive mid-encounter. Add enemies or mechanics that force you to run healers for each subgroup.
Also remove the Jade Tech Buffs and the free +25% damage.

That'd be interesting.

Coincidentally, Deimos is one of my favorite fights both visually, thematically AND mechanically. I usually play puddle kiter. Raids are really underappreciated in the cohesion department, which is one of the reasons I'd want to see more of them.

They're satisfying, and not just for pure gameplay reasons.

Edited March 29, 2022 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Kate.3679]

4 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

Coincidentally, Deimos is one of my favorite fights both visually, thematically AND mechanically. I usually play puddle kiter. Raids are really underappreciated in the cohesion department, which is one of the reasons I'd want to see more of them.

They're satisfying, and not just for pure gameplay reasons.

Careful, if you even MENTION raids you're going to get confused reacted by the masses.

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If I'd enjoy people failing I'd be pounding my desk for the original version of the meta. 
The link to the screenshot should work now, I also calculated the average DPS, I overestimated it, it's 9k, not 12k. That' just 2k above the 7k "DPS check" being thrown around. 
As I said, 6 tails, no CC, average DPS of 9k and we did it with ~4 minutes left. 

There are many builds where you just auto attack and sit around 25k DPS, but those don't matter. What matters is that the game gives you 20% outgoing damage for doing 10 events, you also get 5% more damage if all lanes are maxed, the Jade Tech Offensive Buff gives 150 Power and Condi Damage. 
With all those you can't say the required damage is high.

Not sure how you increased the size of your window to show all 50. 

But here's the middle ground of a run just now. Picked the first best DE group that wasn't asking for LI/KP but was asking for alac / quickness (without enforcing it afterwards or grouping in arborstone).

https://imgur.com/a/z7K8l5o

You'll notice that even with buff few even passes 5k. Some of them temporarily as they can not sustain that kind of DPS. 

That's the kinds of groups that remain after all the usual 20k+ dps players self selected into the gatekept groups.