Unhindered combattant and cripple

[apharma.3741]

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it.

Sindrener kept saying the changes are irrelevant, which may be true in a +1 PVP scenario. But WvW roaming is a whole other thing. As a solo roamer playing DP meta but also acro/tr/DD s/d I suffer hard from these nerfs. These nerfs took out alot of the fun in GW2 for me.

You're impacted more, but that's because the relatively wide open nature makes the dd mobility advantage far greater when roaming in wvw than playing pvp. Meaning, you're suffering a lost advantage that your pvp counterpart didn't really have.

DD mobility and defense potential really has supported a lower risk/reward style of roaming play than is reasonable, and (as has sometimes been the case with other classes) has allowed way too much cover for sloppy play.

The change could be good, though I'd defer to level headed people with greater knowledge of the class to say whether it was the right way to go.

Do not lump risk/reward of

escape

in the same boat as risk/reward of

actual combat.

The people who cry low risk/reward are simply irritated that they cannot

finish

the thief that they

already defeated

in combat. Your opponent ran away, big deal, take solace in the fact that you won the fight. Compare the risk/reward of a Thief's combat potential vs. the risk/reward of ...oh I don't know, lets say a Warrior's combat potential. Thief's risk doesn't look so low anymore, does it?If you're getting chewed up by a warrior while roaming on a hyper mobile dd, then the warrior is playing better than you.

Yes and if a hyper defensive Warrior is getting chewed up by a DD, the DD is playing better than him. You have no point here.

While roaming? The dd is at clear advantage unless he's constrained by time, whether because the warrior slips into a structure or gains allies to pressure the thief.

The hyper defensive warrior should otherwise never defeat a properly played mobile dd while roaming. If you're losing to them, then you have some work to do.

If a Warrior fights a Thief with a similar skill level, there is no reason the Warrior should lose given the kits between the two. If a the Thief disengages, the Warrior will be out of combat at the same time. I don't even know why I'm bothering laying it out to you here, I roam on both Warrior and Thief, I know the potential of both. Unfortunately, you don't seem to as your post history shows that you pretty much only play Warrior, and your bias is incredibly apparent. It seems you have some work to do as a Warrior if you are losing to Daredevils 1v1, especially since you main the one that has the advantage.

Who said anything about resetting the fight? Just stay out of melee range until you're good and ready to close.

Too often you seem to assume that superior mobility is only useful for disengaging, which, frankly, calls into question your skill playing either class.

In the context of your common DD vs the common Warrior, that's really all it will help you with outside damage mitigation while in combat. If you are being damaged by a Thief's shortbow, I daresay you need far more practice as Warrior before even attempting to post on a profession's forum in which you are consistently showing lack of basic understanding. Please take your incredible bias elsewhere.

I'm embarrassed to have to explain this to you, but you do know that dd builds can use their superior mobility to both stay out of range of a warrior's attacks

and

control when to enter melee combat, right? That doesn't mean the warrior is necessarily a sitting duck, but yeah, that's a major advantage you can leverage against the warrior. You're welcome.

Also, too often thieves underestimate the value of the shortbow beyond shadow step. Even if you're just plinking with the auto, you're out trading a melee warrior who's not in melee range. Your poison application is a great way to crimp his sustain too., and it'll also increase the damage of Trick Shot. Of course, keeping range also denies most warrior's ability to benefit from Adrenal Health, which is another big part of the his sustain package. So, again, you're welcome.

Maybe some of the more highly skilled thieves here could give you additional pointers.

As for bias, remember that you already acknowledged on another thread that a soft counter to the very thing under discussion was fair enough, though you didn't like the way Anet went about it. For my part, I already acknowledged (twice in this thread) that there may have been better ways for them to go about it.

Sure, buddy. Whatever makes you feel more secure. I'm done teaching you how to play Thief and Warrior. You'll just need some more practice and persistence. I'll leave you with this challenge though: I dare you to duel a competent Warrior as a Thief and kill him with Shortbow. According to your theory, it should be easy for you, right?

Could you two just arrange to meet up in WvW and grab a tape measure? If that’s to hard to do, each record a little video of an average fight you have and you can show of your amazing skills. It’ll be far more fruitful than the 4th round of L2P and you’re bias, no you’re bias bickering that ends every thread about thief.

[Rezzet.3614]

I had made a thief just because of unhindered combatant yet me being Thief noob running dp and pp had an 80% win rate. Anyone with general combat experience could dominate on this profesion because theres little counterplay

[SteepledHat.1345]

@Rezzet.3614 said:It was a broken trait to begin with, now it adds a skill factor to allow some actual counterplay against daredevils instead of blowing your evades om cripple use them on immob or chill, also dd has endurance refill on heal as well as endurance refill plus cleanse on a signet you have more than enough evades to break out of a pinch just lost the ability to perma evade with vigor

Sorry, but we have to evade to survive. We can't just stand in damage like say, a SB.

[Coronit.9432]

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:In WvW thief is just plain cancer to the game, no other class (except for warrior) can go full zerker (as much as many want to) and be legit in roaming - you can try to, but the first thief with even half brain will insta gib you.

People want to have fun playing a game & thieves are just taking away that element plain and simple, being privileged with the things I said above :-1:"HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to reset combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns"

& initiative although it was meant to be a cooldown mechanic it simply doesn't cut it because there plenty of ways to restore it WHILE it also recharges passively:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Skills_which_restore_initiative

Thats even better than chronomancer's alacrity

So in conclusion thief makes the game (Wvw) not fun for any other class facing it & needs to be brought in line even more.

Nobody can go full zerker except thief. In the same sentence you say, that warrior can go full zerker after all. So contradiction? Full zerker thief is by far anything but "legit" in wvw, most run defensive stats due to low HP pool and lack of other defensives outside of few evades, they got blown up by literary anything, even when enemies are not even looking at them.The first thief with half brain will also instagib any thief running full zerk. What's your point?

Thieves also want to have fun. Thief players also asked for other way to play instead of being forced into same gameplay for years (slippery one hit wonder). Don't blame thieves, blame Anet for forcing thief players into this playstyle and depraving them of everything else. Devs don't even attempt to change the playstyle, they just give in in all QQ from clueless players and take things away until nobody plays the class like it was in s1/s2 and suddenly oh wonder they realize they messed up.

There are also ways to decrease CDs on other classes. What is your point?

Same can be said about every class in this game. Your point? Define "fun". For each person it is something different. Trust me, it is not "fun" for thief getting instagibbed by literary everything in this game the moment they don't dodge because Anet didn't give them anything else besides low HP pool and dodge bar+bit of stealth. It is not fun to be constantly kicked from all groups because you bring nothing as thief. It is not fun to be constantly harassed for playing the class. It is not fun to being forced to constantly adjust to yet another stupid nerf while other classes can literary afk and still collect their bags. It is not fun to be constantly target of the nerfs because people that have 0 idea about the class cry rivers for those nerfs.

Thief is also only class in game that automatically gets kicked from zergs due to being "waste of spot". So OP and yet so unwanted.

Privileged you say? How about guards/wars/eles/necros that have been "must have" since basically launch of wvw? That is what i call privileged. How about we bring those in line.

Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief & even if they can pull out such a feat the thief can simply disengage & come back later when the other guy has no cds.

=> one of the main causes for grouping / blobbing are the roaming thieves xD => you brought it upon yourselves boys.

lmao

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:In WvW thief is just plain cancer to the game, no other class (except for warrior) can go full zerker (as much as many want to) and be legit in roaming - you can try to, but the first thief with even half brain will insta gib you.

People want to have fun playing a game & thieves are just taking away that element plain and simple, being privileged with the things I said above :-1:"HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to reset combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns"

& initiative although it was meant to be a cooldown mechanic it simply doesn't cut it because there plenty of ways to restore it WHILE it also recharges passively:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Skills_which_restore_initiative

Thats even better than chronomancer's alacrity

So in conclusion thief makes the game (Wvw) not fun for any other class facing it & needs to be brought in line even more.

Nobody can go full zerker except thief. In the same sentence you say, that warrior can go full zerker after all. So contradiction? Full zerker thief is by far anything but "legit" in wvw, most run defensive stats due to low HP pool and lack of other defensives outside of few evades, they got blown up by literary anything, even when enemies are not even looking at them.The first thief with half brain will also instagib any thief running full zerk. What's your point?

Thieves also want to have fun. Thief players also asked for other way to play instead of being forced into same gameplay for years (slippery one hit wonder). Don't blame thieves, blame Anet for forcing thief players into this playstyle and depraving them of everything else. Devs don't even attempt to change the playstyle, they just give in in all QQ from clueless players and take things away until nobody plays the class like it was in s1/s2 and suddenly oh wonder they realize they messed up.

There are also ways to decrease CDs on other classes. What is your point?

Same can be said about every class in this game. Your point? Define "fun". For each person it is something different. Trust me, it is not "fun" for thief getting instagibbed by literary everything in this game the moment they don't dodge because Anet didn't give them anything else besides low HP pool and dodge bar+bit of stealth. It is not fun to be constantly kicked from all groups because you bring nothing as thief. It is not fun to be constantly harassed for playing the class. It is not fun to being forced to constantly adjust to yet another stupid nerf while other classes can literary afk and still collect their bags. It is not fun to be constantly target of the nerfs because people that have 0 idea about the class cry rivers for those nerfs.

Thief is also only class in game that automatically gets kicked from zergs due to being "waste of spot". So OP and yet so unwanted.

Privileged you say? How about guards/wars/eles/necros that have been "must have" since basically launch of wvw? That is what i call privileged. How about we bring those in line.

Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief & even if they can pull out such a feat the thief can simply disengage & come back later when the other guy has no cds.

=> one of the main causes for grouping / blobbing are the roaming thieves xD => you brought it upon yourselves boys.

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it.

Sindrener kept saying the changes are irrelevant, which may be true in a +1 PVP scenario. But WvW roaming is a whole other thing. As a solo roamer playing DP meta but also acro/tr/DD s/d I suffer hard from these nerfs. These nerfs took out alot of the fun in GW2 for me.

You're impacted more, but that's because the relatively wide open nature makes the dd mobility advantage far greater when roaming in wvw than playing pvp. Meaning, you're suffering a lost advantage that your pvp counterpart didn't really have.

DD mobility and defense potential really has supported a lower risk/reward style of roaming play than is reasonable, and (as has sometimes been the case with other classes) has allowed way too much cover for sloppy play.

The change could be good, though I'd defer to level headed people with greater knowledge of the class to say whether it was the right way to go.

Do not lump risk/reward of

escape

in the same boat as risk/reward of

actual combat.

The people who cry low risk/reward are simply irritated that they cannot

finish

the thief that they

already defeated

in combat. Your opponent ran away, big deal, take solace in the fact that you won the fight. Compare the risk/reward of a Thief's combat potential vs. the risk/reward of ...oh I don't know, lets say a Warrior's combat potential. Thief's risk doesn't look so low anymore, does it?If you're getting chewed up by a warrior while roaming on a hyper mobile dd, then the warrior is playing better than you.

Yes and if a hyper defensive Warrior is getting chewed up by a DD, the DD is playing better than him. You have no point here.

While roaming? The dd is at clear advantage unless he's constrained by time, whether because the warrior slips into a structure or gains allies to pressure the thief.

The hyper defensive warrior should otherwise never defeat a properly played mobile dd while roaming. If you're losing to them, then you have some work to do.

If a Warrior fights a Thief with a similar skill level, there is no reason the Warrior should lose given the kits between the two. If a the Thief disengages, the Warrior will be out of combat at the same time. I don't even know why I'm bothering laying it out to you here, I roam on both Warrior and Thief, I know the potential of both. Unfortunately, you don't seem to as your post history shows that you pretty much only play Warrior, and your bias is incredibly apparent. It seems you have some work to do as a Warrior if you are losing to Daredevils 1v1, especially since you main the one that has the advantage.

So you want to tell me & everyone on this forum that as soon as the warrior gets out of combat also gets his cooldowns reset ??? because the only thing a thief needs to wait for when resetting is his health to get back up while warr & many other classes have much lengthier skill cds.

I don't see where is the argument here - the thief is at clear advantage when resetting combat period

Except with improvisation thief doesn´t reset his cd´s either you know? Warrior has more health and toughness to begin with, so in theory the warrior gains actually more out of that resetting (more health gained and better effective health cause of toughness).

Cd´s overall aren´t really higher. shadowstep has 50sec, blinding powder 40sec, basi 45sec.Berserker stance now has 30sec cd. Does that magically change anything about what you talk about? No, because its irrelevant talking about resetting cd´s when getting ooc.

Thieves being good in disengaging doesn´t mean they kill anything. Is it annoying? of course, but saying "Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief" (your quote) simply tells me you are terrible in this game and need help from others to kill anything. THAT leads to grouping/blobbing. So actually YOU are the problem.

Anything this change did was making thieves to fight less and disengage earlier.And proving that anet is still bad in balancing

[Shirlias.8104]

I can understand immobilize, but why chill and cripple. But don't worry in exchange we got sustai... oh wait.

Maybe they wanted us to play deadeye?

How to force player to play the new expansion build.

And elementalists which try to talk about thieves. But why.

[Coronit.9432]

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Coronit.9432 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:In WvW thief is just plain cancer to the game, no other class (except for warrior) can go full zerker (as much as many want to) and be legit in roaming - you can try to, but the first thief with even half brain will insta gib you.

People want to have fun playing a game & thieves are just taking away that element plain and simple, being privileged with the things I said above :-1:"HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to reset combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns"

& initiative although it was meant to be a cooldown mechanic it simply doesn't cut it because there plenty of ways to restore it WHILE it also recharges passively:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Skills_which_restore_initiative

Thats even better than chronomancer's alacrity

So in conclusion thief makes the game (Wvw) not fun for any other class facing it & needs to be brought in line even more.

Nobody can go full zerker except thief. In the same sentence you say, that warrior can go full zerker after all. So contradiction? Full zerker thief is by far anything but "legit" in wvw, most run defensive stats due to low HP pool and lack of other defensives outside of few evades, they got blown up by literary anything, even when enemies are not even looking at them.The first thief with half brain will also instagib any thief running full zerk. What's your point?

Thieves also want to have fun. Thief players also asked for other way to play instead of being forced into same gameplay for years (slippery one hit wonder). Don't blame thieves, blame Anet for forcing thief players into this playstyle and depraving them of everything else. Devs don't even attempt to change the playstyle, they just give in in all QQ from clueless players and take things away until nobody plays the class like it was in s1/s2 and suddenly oh wonder they realize they messed up.

There are also ways to decrease CDs on other classes. What is your point?

Same can be said about every class in this game. Your point? Define "fun". For each person it is something different. Trust me, it is not "fun" for thief getting instagibbed by literary everything in this game the moment they don't dodge because Anet didn't give them anything else besides low HP pool and dodge bar+bit of stealth. It is not fun to be constantly kicked from all groups because you bring nothing as thief. It is not fun to be constantly harassed for playing the class. It is not fun to being forced to constantly adjust to yet another stupid nerf while other classes can literary afk and still collect their bags. It is not fun to be constantly target of the nerfs because people that have 0 idea about the class cry rivers for those nerfs.

Thief is also only class in game that automatically gets kicked from zergs due to being "waste of spot". So OP and yet so unwanted.

Privileged you say? How about guards/wars/eles/necros that have been "must have" since basically launch of wvw? That is what i call privileged. How about we bring those in line.

Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief & even if they can pull out such a feat the thief can simply disengage & come back later when the other guy has no cds.

=> one of the main causes for grouping / blobbing are the roaming thieves xD => you brought it upon yourselves boys.

lmao

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:In WvW thief is just plain cancer to the game, no other class (except for warrior) can go full zerker (as much as many want to) and be legit in roaming - you can try to, but the first thief with even half brain will insta gib you.

People want to have fun playing a game & thieves are just taking away that element plain and simple, being privileged with the things I said above :-1:"HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to reset combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns"

& initiative although it was meant to be a cooldown mechanic it simply doesn't cut it because there plenty of ways to restore it WHILE it also recharges passively:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Skills_which_restore_initiative

Thats even better than chronomancer's alacrity

So in conclusion thief makes the game (Wvw) not fun for any other class facing it & needs to be brought in line even more.

Nobody can go full zerker except thief. In the same sentence you say, that warrior can go full zerker after all. So contradiction? Full zerker thief is by far anything but "legit" in wvw, most run defensive stats due to low HP pool and lack of other defensives outside of few evades, they got blown up by literary anything, even when enemies are not even looking at them.The first thief with half brain will also instagib any thief running full zerk. What's your point?

Thieves also want to have fun. Thief players also asked for other way to play instead of being forced into same gameplay for years (slippery one hit wonder). Don't blame thieves, blame Anet for forcing thief players into this playstyle and depraving them of everything else. Devs don't even attempt to change the playstyle, they just give in in all QQ from clueless players and take things away until nobody plays the class like it was in s1/s2 and suddenly oh wonder they realize they messed up.

There are also ways to decrease CDs on other classes. What is your point?

Same can be said about every class in this game. Your point? Define "fun". For each person it is something different. Trust me, it is not "fun" for thief getting instagibbed by literary everything in this game the moment they don't dodge because Anet didn't give them anything else besides low HP pool and dodge bar+bit of stealth. It is not fun to be constantly kicked from all groups because you bring nothing as thief. It is not fun to be constantly harassed for playing the class. It is not fun to being forced to constantly adjust to yet another stupid nerf while other classes can literary afk and still collect their bags. It is not fun to be constantly target of the nerfs because people that have 0 idea about the class cry rivers for those nerfs.

Thief is also only class in game that automatically gets kicked from zergs due to being "waste of spot". So OP and yet so unwanted.

Privileged you say? How about guards/wars/eles/necros that have been "must have" since basically launch of wvw? That is what i call privileged. How about we bring those in line.

Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief & even if they can pull out such a feat the thief can simply disengage & come back later when the other guy has no cds.

=> one of the main causes for grouping / blobbing are the roaming thieves xD => you brought it upon yourselves boys.

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it.

Sindrener kept saying the changes are irrelevant, which may be true in a +1 PVP scenario. But WvW roaming is a whole other thing. As a solo roamer playing DP meta but also acro/tr/DD s/d I suffer hard from these nerfs. These nerfs took out alot of the fun in GW2 for me.

You're impacted more, but that's because the relatively wide open nature makes the dd mobility advantage far greater when roaming in wvw than playing pvp. Meaning, you're suffering a lost advantage that your pvp counterpart didn't really have.

DD mobility and defense potential really has supported a lower risk/reward style of roaming play than is reasonable, and (as has sometimes been the case with other classes) has allowed way too much cover for sloppy play.

The change could be good, though I'd defer to level headed people with greater knowledge of the class to say whether it was the right way to go.

Do not lump risk/reward of

escape

in the same boat as risk/reward of

actual combat.

The people who cry low risk/reward are simply irritated that they cannot

finish

the thief that they

already defeated

in combat. Your opponent ran away, big deal, take solace in the fact that you won the fight. Compare the risk/reward of a Thief's combat potential vs. the risk/reward of ...oh I don't know, lets say a Warrior's combat potential. Thief's risk doesn't look so low anymore, does it?If you're getting chewed up by a warrior while roaming on a hyper mobile dd, then the warrior is playing better than you.

Yes and if a hyper defensive Warrior is getting chewed up by a DD, the DD is playing better than him. You have no point here.

While roaming? The dd is at clear advantage unless he's constrained by time, whether because the warrior slips into a structure or gains allies to pressure the thief.

The hyper defensive warrior should otherwise never defeat a properly played mobile dd while roaming. If you're losing to them, then you have some work to do.

If a Warrior fights a Thief with a similar skill level, there is no reason the Warrior should lose given the kits between the two. If a the Thief disengages, the Warrior will be out of combat at the same time. I don't even know why I'm bothering laying it out to you here, I roam on both Warrior and Thief, I know the potential of both. Unfortunately, you don't seem to as your post history shows that you pretty much only play Warrior, and your bias is incredibly apparent. It seems you have some work to do as a Warrior if you are losing to Daredevils 1v1, especially since you main the one that has the advantage.

So you want to tell me & everyone on this forum that as soon as the warrior gets out of combat also gets his cooldowns reset ??? because the only thing a thief needs to wait for when resetting is his health to get back up while warr & many other classes have much lengthier skill cds.

I don't see where is the argument here - the thief is at clear advantage when resetting combat period

Except with improvisation thief doesn´t reset his cd´s either you know? Warrior has more health and toughness to begin with, so in theory the warrior gains actually more out of that resetting (more health gained and better effective health cause of toughness).

Cd´s overall aren´t really higher. shadowstep has 50sec, blinding powder 40sec, basi 45sec.Berserker stance now has 30sec cd. Does that magically change anything about what you talk about? No, because its irrelevant talking about resetting cd´s when getting ooc.

Thieves being good in disengaging doesn´t mean they kill anything. Is it annoying? of course, but saying "Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief" (your quote) simply tells me you are terrible in this game and need help from others to kill anything. THAT leads to grouping/blobbing. So actually YOU are the problem.

Anything this change did was making thieves to fight less and disengage earlier.And proving that anet is still bad in balancing

Don't play the typical thief high horse knowing all snowflake, I have stomped many tryhard noob thieves to know how all they try to play (who also believe to be better than others by simply playing an easymode class who they try to disguise as high skill rofl can you immagine)

Besides the fact that shows you just want to weasle out of the argument thieves DON'T have WEAPON cds, come on bro i thought you are smarter.

Once other classes have no weapon cds the thief still has his & initiative regen / gain is much better than standard weapon cds you cannot deny that because it is a fact - there are multiple ways of regaining initiative while all other classes have to wait out on theirs (excluding some minor alacrity gains).Either you don't know that or you conveniently don't mention it - which is even worse.

Initiative is just another cooldown. A delayed global cooldown to be precise. "initiative regen / gain is much better than standard weapon cds you cannot deny that because it is a fact" Where is that a fact? Because you say so? lmaoYears ago people did the actual math and it turned out standard weapon cd´s are shorter in comparison to initiative. Mostly because initiative affects BOTH weaponsets. Today it should be even more so because weapontraits got shorter cd´s overall since HoT to compete with the new weapons/traits. The initiative gain got actually nerfed and the amount you need not really reduced. Look up the patch notes if you don´t believe me. Actually there isn´t a single trait that reduces the needed initiative for weapon skills.Initiative gain better? where? overall there is ONE trait that most thieves use and that is "kleptomaniac" that gives you 2 initiative on successful steal (got nerfed in the past, used to be 3). The one rarely used in acrobatic got nerfed, too.

Btw there are traits that reduce cd´s in other ways, "imagined burden" for example.

I don´t know everything, but apparently more then you do.And before you continue with the brainless insults, I´m not playing thief a lot currently.

saw this in a 4 year old thread:**"A necro, after casting 2,3,4,5 can then swap weapons and cast 2,3,4,5…

A thief can cast the equivalent of 12 init (untraited) and then is on cool down on all skills.

As soon as a Necro casts a skill, it begins regenerating whether he casts any other skill or not, casting 3 after 2, does not decrease the recharge rate of 2. It does for a thief because all his skill use the same 12 init resource.

A necro, running on an initiative system could, at best cast 5, 5 and be completely blown on both land and underwater weapon sets. That means he used 2 skills to put 18 others on CD."**

more like 8 though. Underwater skill are irrelevant

[Exciton.8942]

@Coronit.9432 said:Years ago people did the actual math and it turned out standard weapon cd´s are shorter in comparison to initiative. Mostly because initiative affects BOTH weaponsets. Today it should be even more so because weapontraits got shorter cd´s overall since HoT to compete with the new weapons/traits. The initiative gain got actually nerfed and the amount you need not really reduced. Look up the patch notes if you don´t believe me. Actually there isn´t a single trait that reduces the needed initiative for weapon skills.

Initiative regen 1 per second. So the effective CD for individual skill is equal to the number of initiative cost. You need around 16 initiatives to use every weapon skill once. If we mix in 1-2 lower cost skills, it is like 20-25 initiatives total. This is still lower than many high-impact skills from other professions.

Just take one example: Sword 2 port. Do other profession have anything that ports them 900 range at such low cost?

The price you pay is that you can't spam different high-initiative cost skills at once. You gain the benefit of using same skills several times in a row. However, over time, you definitely have effectively lower CD than most other profession's weapons skills.

[Coronit.9432]

@Exciton.8942 said:

@Coronit.9432 said:Years ago people did the actual math and it turned out standard weapon cd´s are shorter in comparison to initiative. Mostly because initiative affects BOTH weaponsets. Today it should be even more so because weapontraits got shorter cd´s overall since HoT to compete with the new weapons/traits. The initiative gain got actually nerfed and the amount you need not really reduced. Look up the patch notes if you don´t believe me. Actually there isn´t a single trait that reduces the needed initiative for weapon skills.

Initiative regen 1 per second. So the effective CD for individual skill is equal to the number of initiative cost. You need around 16 initiatives to use every weapon skill once. If we mix in 1-2 lower cost skills, it is like 20-25 initiatives total. This is still lower than many high-impact skills from other professions.

Just take one example: Sword 2 port. Do other profession have anything that ports them 900 range at such low cost?

The price you pay is that you can't spam different high-initiative cost skills at once. You gain the benefit of using same skills several times in a row. However, over time, you definitely have effectively lower CD than most other profession's weapons skills.

16 is the lowest but I would go with it because its both the amount you need on D/P and SB.What do you mean with that still lower than many high impact skills from other professions? cd´s of all skill vs 1 higher one?

And other classes have blocks as weapon skills, it depends on the class. Phase retreat for example has higher cd, but generates a clone and is a leap finisher. Comparing that is futile.

And you forgot that you definitly have to compare them with BOTH weaponsets, because thats where initiative shows its disadvantage.If you use all your initative and change to another weapon you don´t gain a new bar of initiative (3 if traited, but who actually uses that trait). Warrior for example has every cd ready when first changing to it. Now you would use new skills as thief to defend yourself, attack or disengage. Using initiative immediatly. Meanwhile every cd used from the warrior regenerates independent. Except higher cd ones, skills will be ready again when changing back to the first weaponset, skills on the second weaponset regenerating all at the same rate during that. I thought the quote would explain that pretty well.Good comparison imo: thief SB 3 with ranger SB 3. First one needs 4 initiative, second one has 8sec cd. On first glance it looks like 4s cd vs. 8s cd. Now if you would use it on thief after waiting 4s you had it faster ready again than ranger, BUT every other cd would be on cd again as well. Ranger recharges everything simultaneously without getting into the way of other skills.

Can´t find the old thread about initiative cd vs. normal cd. Was myself interested how it was calculated back then. Can only remember a view variables. If its more similar today, the better.

At the end, comparing apples with oranges.

[Sasajoe.1509]

@Coronit.9432 said:Initiative gain better? where? overall there is ONE trait that most thieves use and that is "kleptomaniac" that gives you 2 initiative on successful steal (got nerfed in the past, used to be 3). The one rarely used in acrobatic got nerfed, too.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Skills_which_restore_initiative

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Related_traits

The fact that you don't use those skills/traits doesn't mean other more competent players also don't.Actually I've seen many thieves building esp for initiative grains for prolonged fights to wear down the opponent

@Exciton.8942 said:

@Coronit.9432 said:Years ago people did the actual math and it turned out standard weapon cd´s are shorter in comparison to initiative. Mostly because initiative affects BOTH weaponsets. Today it should be even more so because weapontraits got shorter cd´s overall since HoT to compete with the new weapons/traits. The initiative gain got actually nerfed and the amount you need not really reduced. Look up the patch notes if you don´t believe me. Actually there isn´t a single trait that reduces the needed initiative for weapon skills.

Initiative regen 1 per second. So the effective CD for individual skill is equal to the number of initiative cost. You need around 16 initiatives to use every weapon skill once. If we mix in 1-2 lower cost skills, it is like 20-25 initiatives total. This is still lower than many high-impact skills from other professions.

Just take one example: Sword 2 port. Do other profession have anything that ports them 900 range at such low cost?

The price you pay is that you can't spam different high-initiative cost skills at once. You gain the benefit of using same skills several times in a row. However, over time, you definitely have effectively lower CD than most other profession's weapons skills.

My point exactly , thank you kind sir for pointing it more precisely, you got a +1

[Vitali.5039]

Don't Stop + Superior Rune of Hoelbrak will rule the world.Sword is more appealing with steal (initiative+endurance) recharge.

Who haven't dropped Deadly Arts yet?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Vitali.5039 said:Don't Stop + Superior Rune of Hoelbrak will rule the world.Sword is more appealing with steal (initiative+endurance) recharge.

Who haven't dropped Deadly Arts yet?

I dropped dardevil for acrobatics 2 months before POF as s/d. Da/acro/trickery.

Compitent players don't use them traits because it either dosnt fit their build, and or they know to manage their initiative, spamming skills as previously poster said is a death sentence to any 1 who knows what they thief is actually doing (draining initiative) a classic example are head shot spam thieves.

[Vitali.5039]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:Don't Stop + Superior Rune of Hoelbrak will rule the world.Sword is more appealing with steal (initiative+endurance) recharge.

Who haven't dropped Deadly Arts yet?

I dropped dardevil for acrobatics 2 months before POF as s/d. Da/acro/trickery.

Compitent players don't use them traits because it either dosnt fit their build, and or they know to manage their initiative, spamming skills as previously poster said is a death sentence to any 1 who knows what they thief is actually doing (draining initiative) a classic example are head shot spam thieves.

To me physical skills+endurance are too good to pass up and I value DA over DD only for condition builds.How do you play your build? Can you share it?

[Cynz.9437]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:Spamming evades doesn't equal skill, this change should have been made loooong time ago (as more are needed to bring this class in line)Can't have everything: HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to

reset

combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns & is left just standing in the open (which let's be honest isn't making the game particularly fun).

Also nobody forces thieves to play full zerker gear - you can always use some toughness/vitality combo like most other classes in wvw do.

But spamming overloaded skills on low CD and riding passives like other classes do equals skill? UC wouldn't be needed on first place of the powercreep wasn't so insanse (since HoT). Why does only thief gets locked out of AA by own spells? Why does only thief gets their Grandmaster Trait deleted because lets face it game is flooded with chill/cripple/immobs on top of trillion aoes? Why do not other classes get same treatment? Why for example is warrior not locked out of their AA if they miss their burst skill? Or mes locked out of AA if not all their clones hit target on shatter? Why not increase CD on defensive skills on warrior if they have resistance applied to them? That would be equal treatment.

I find it ironic that you say everything: do thieves have invuls? No. Do thieves have high HP pool? No. Do thieves have reliable access to protection/resistance/retal etc.? No. Do thieves have high healing capacity? No. Do thieves have great team support? No. Do thieves have big amount of meaningful AoE? No. The huge burst you talk about happens when all stars align and is only single target damage for most part. Shall we look at other classes that can do way more, have been declared too strong/OP by entire community and yet didn't see nowhere near the same treatment that thieves got.Btw, thieves have CDs, it is called initiative which takes

TIME

to recharge in case you didn't know. And thieves do have CDs on utility skills, once again, just so you know.

Finally counter to thieves? Well, why don't you give thieves counter to other classes. And i mean actual counter, e.g. successful steal prevents guard from using virtues etc. Or do you admit that you just want thief to afk and give you bags?

Good to see that some things never change. You do realize that UC was in game before all of the powercreep that came

after HoT

, don't you? UC always has been ridiculously overloaded, making DD's immune to immobilize and softCC.

The change to this trait was poorly done, I agree with @apharma.3741 there. But the rational behind it was 100% good reasoning. This trait was one of the remaining things from HoT that was ridiculously broken, and tbh I'm surprised that it finally got addressed.

UC is part of powercreep that came with HoT, which got worse with PoF. Sad to see that some things never change and people find heavy nerfs to other classes ok as long as their own class doesn't get same treatment. Sure, UC is overloaded but so are many other spells from HoT/POF but yet they remained untouched or didn't see any meaningful changes because balance is based on QQ from players that don't even play the class (cough cough what is plasma).

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:Don't Stop + Superior Rune of Hoelbrak will rule the world.Sword is more appealing with steal (initiative+endurance) recharge.

Who haven't dropped Deadly Arts yet?

I dropped dardevil for acrobatics 2 months before POF as s/d. Da/acro/trickery.

Compitent players don't use them traits because it either dosnt fit their build, and or they know to manage their initiative, spamming skills as previously poster said is a death sentence to any 1 who knows what they thief is actually doing (draining initiative) a classic example are head shot spam thieves.

To me physical skills+endurance are too good to pass up and I value DA over DD only for condition builds.How do you play your build? Can you share it?

Sure. This is the gear and build I use for core s/d.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVl0MhSnYhTw8Jw/EHwElPNOj2oXYhYiqTgAY3A-j1CFQBsb/hCpiyCOCAC4ECwHlgKUJVSUuwgDgg6OAh+G9peBAeUArDOAGrYFbsAzN3czN3cNgYjN2YjN2YjN2YlCY1hWA-w

[Nimrud.5642]

First thing first: the trait is OP indeed. But not on thief. On any other class it'd be OP as hell (one of the most OP OPness that ever occured in gw2). But all thief has is this thing in PVP. Because it has next to none on-point fighting potential and whatever a thief does he/she must do it quickly otherwise he/she will end up in a bad situation (starting a 1v1 then getting +1ed by the enemy thief or intending to +1 a fight but ending up in a 2v2 instead, etc.) Being able to reset/escape like this AND having the on-point pressure of a holo or scourage would indeed be OP, a thief dies from a weak fly's fart between dodges so I really dont get it why this nerf was so neccessary according to Anet. Or at least they should have given us some boosts to be able to stay in stationary fights a lil longer...

But anyways:How about making the trait EITHER remove a movement impairing condition OR give swiftness with no ICD? The dash animation should stay for both scenarios imho.

[babazhook.6805]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:Don't Stop + Superior Rune of Hoelbrak will rule the world.Sword is more appealing with steal (initiative+endurance) recharge.

Who haven't dropped Deadly Arts yet?

I dropped dardevil for acrobatics 2 months before POF as s/d. Da/acro/trickery.

Compitent players don't use them traits because it either dosnt fit their build, and or they know to manage their initiative, spamming skills as previously poster said is a death sentence to any 1 who knows what they thief is actually doing (draining initiative) a classic example are head shot spam thieves.

To me physical skills+endurance are too good to pass up and I value DA over DD only for condition builds.How do you play your build? Can you share it?

Sure. This is the gear and build I use for core s/d.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsYVl0MhSnYhTw8Jw/EHwElPNOj2oXYhYiqTgAY3A-j1CFQBsb/hCpiyCOCAC4ECwHlgKUJVSUuwgDgg6OAh+G9peBAeUArDOAGrYFbsAzN3czN3cNgYjN2YjN2YjN2YlCY1hWA-w

Very much like my own and my own conclusions much the same. BEFORE POF I found s/d thief in ACRO worked better then the Daredevil version for my purposes. In the adept slots I found better choices in Acro. The combo of PR with the cleanse on using 2 was just more efficient at clearing conditions then relying on EA. Swindlers beat out PI (given there few interrupts in an s/d build) and Don't stop was just about as good as UC. I never found the need for those extra dodges in an s/d build.

Either DA or CS worked as the other traitline with TR and Acro.

With enhancements to Don't stop and in particular the removal of an immobilizing condition EVERYTIME swiftness applied , plus adding swiftness to sword 2 with an added 16 percent increase in boon duration , ACRO became a cut and dried better choice.

I like the use of IMPROV with the build BUT have also found using the new DE traitline can offer significant benefits and overall the Cantrips I find work better for my style of play then the physical skills that Daredevil offerred.

Any thief using s/x in a build should recognize the significance of Don't stop and how it synergizes with S/X number 2 and that swiftness add. Acro also offers what is in essence full time swiftness, vigor and regen while increasing durations of might and fury adds.

[OriOri.8724]

@Cynz.9437 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:Spamming evades doesn't equal skill, this change should have been made loooong time ago (as more are needed to bring this class in line)Can't have everything: HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to

reset

combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns & is left just standing in the open (which let's be honest isn't making the game particularly fun).

Also nobody forces thieves to play full zerker gear - you can always use some toughness/vitality combo like most other classes in wvw do.

But spamming overloaded skills on low CD and riding passives like other classes do equals skill? UC wouldn't be needed on first place of the powercreep wasn't so insanse (since HoT). Why does only thief gets locked out of AA by own spells? Why does only thief gets their Grandmaster Trait deleted because lets face it game is flooded with chill/cripple/immobs on top of trillion aoes? Why do not other classes get same treatment? Why for example is warrior not locked out of their AA if they miss their burst skill? Or mes locked out of AA if not all their clones hit target on shatter? Why not increase CD on defensive skills on warrior if they have resistance applied to them? That would be equal treatment.

I find it ironic that you say everything: do thieves have invuls? No. Do thieves have high HP pool? No. Do thieves have reliable access to protection/resistance/retal etc.? No. Do thieves have high healing capacity? No. Do thieves have great team support? No. Do thieves have big amount of meaningful AoE? No. The huge burst you talk about happens when all stars align and is only single target damage for most part. Shall we look at other classes that can do way more, have been declared too strong/OP by entire community and yet didn't see nowhere near the same treatment that thieves got.Btw, thieves have CDs, it is called initiative which takes

TIME

to recharge in case you didn't know. And thieves do have CDs on utility skills, once again, just so you know.

Finally counter to thieves? Well, why don't you give thieves counter to other classes. And i mean actual counter, e.g. successful steal prevents guard from using virtues etc. Or do you admit that you just want thief to afk and give you bags?

Good to see that some things never change. You do realize that UC was in game before all of the powercreep that came

after HoT

, don't you? UC always has been ridiculously overloaded, making DD's immune to immobilize and softCC.

The change to this trait was poorly done, I agree with @apharma.3741 there. But the rational behind it was 100% good reasoning. This trait was one of the remaining things from HoT that was ridiculously broken, and tbh I'm surprised that it finally got addressed.

UC is part of powercreep that came with HoT, which got worse with PoF. Sad to see that some things never change and people find heavy nerfs to other classes ok as long as their own class doesn't get same treatment. Sure, UC is overloaded but so are many other spells from HoT/POF but yet they remained untouched or didn't see any meaningful changes because balance is based on QQ from players that don't even play the class (cough cough what is plasma).

Lol what? No one has even whined about UC for a loooong time now. We all just assumed that it was one of those broken aspects of HoT that Anet decided would never be nerfed. It was nerfed 100% because it was too powerful, and you know it. Its time to face reality Cynz, DD was severely overperforming, and this was one of the last aspects of it that was.

[Turk.5460]

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Coronit.9432 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:In WvW thief is just plain cancer to the game, no other class (except for warrior) can go full zerker (as much as many want to) and be legit in roaming - you can try to, but the first thief with even half brain will insta gib you.

People want to have fun playing a game & thieves are just taking away that element plain and simple, being privileged with the things I said above :-1:"HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to reset combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns"

& initiative although it was meant to be a cooldown mechanic it simply doesn't cut it because there plenty of ways to restore it WHILE it also recharges passively:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Skills_which_restore_initiative

Thats even better than chronomancer's alacrity

So in conclusion thief makes the game (Wvw) not fun for any other class facing it & needs to be brought in line even more.

Nobody can go full zerker except thief. In the same sentence you say, that warrior can go full zerker after all. So contradiction? Full zerker thief is by far anything but "legit" in wvw, most run defensive stats due to low HP pool and lack of other defensives outside of few evades, they got blown up by literary anything, even when enemies are not even looking at them.The first thief with half brain will also instagib any thief running full zerk. What's your point?

Thieves also want to have fun. Thief players also asked for other way to play instead of being forced into same gameplay for years (slippery one hit wonder). Don't blame thieves, blame Anet for forcing thief players into this playstyle and depraving them of everything else. Devs don't even attempt to change the playstyle, they just give in in all QQ from clueless players and take things away until nobody plays the class like it was in s1/s2 and suddenly oh wonder they realize they messed up.

There are also ways to decrease CDs on other classes. What is your point?

Same can be said about every class in this game. Your point? Define "fun". For each person it is something different. Trust me, it is not "fun" for thief getting instagibbed by literary everything in this game the moment they don't dodge because Anet didn't give them anything else besides low HP pool and dodge bar+bit of stealth. It is not fun to be constantly kicked from all groups because you bring nothing as thief. It is not fun to be constantly harassed for playing the class. It is not fun to being forced to constantly adjust to yet another stupid nerf while other classes can literary afk and still collect their bags. It is not fun to be constantly target of the nerfs because people that have 0 idea about the class cry rivers for those nerfs.

Thief is also only class in game that automatically gets kicked from zergs due to being "waste of spot". So OP and yet so unwanted.

Privileged you say? How about guards/wars/eles/necros that have been "must have" since basically launch of wvw? That is what i call privileged. How about we bring those in line.

Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief & even if they can pull out such a feat the thief can simply disengage & come back later when the other guy has no cds.

=> one of the main causes for grouping / blobbing are the roaming thieves xD => you brought it upon yourselves boys.

lmao

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:

@Sasajoe.1509 said:In WvW thief is just plain cancer to the game, no other class (except for warrior) can go full zerker (as much as many want to) and be legit in roaming - you can try to, but the first thief with even half brain will insta gib you.

People want to have fun playing a game & thieves are just taking away that element plain and simple, being privileged with the things I said above :-1:"HUGE burst, teleports, evade SPAM, mobility, stealth, no cooldowns & ability to reset combat indefinitely until your opponent has blown off all his cooldowns"

& initiative although it was meant to be a cooldown mechanic it simply doesn't cut it because there plenty of ways to restore it WHILE it also recharges passively:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative#Skills_which_restore_initiative

Thats even better than chronomancer's alacrity

So in conclusion thief makes the game (Wvw) not fun for any other class facing it & needs to be brought in line even more.

Nobody can go full zerker except thief. In the same sentence you say, that warrior can go full zerker after all. So contradiction? Full zerker thief is by far anything but "legit" in wvw, most run defensive stats due to low HP pool and lack of other defensives outside of few evades, they got blown up by literary anything, even when enemies are not even looking at them.The first thief with half brain will also instagib any thief running full zerk. What's your point?

Thieves also want to have fun. Thief players also asked for other way to play instead of being forced into same gameplay for years (slippery one hit wonder). Don't blame thieves, blame Anet for forcing thief players into this playstyle and depraving them of everything else. Devs don't even attempt to change the playstyle, they just give in in all QQ from clueless players and take things away until nobody plays the class like it was in s1/s2 and suddenly oh wonder they realize they messed up.

There are also ways to decrease CDs on other classes. What is your point?

Same can be said about every class in this game. Your point? Define "fun". For each person it is something different. Trust me, it is not "fun" for thief getting instagibbed by literary everything in this game the moment they don't dodge because Anet didn't give them anything else besides low HP pool and dodge bar+bit of stealth. It is not fun to be constantly kicked from all groups because you bring nothing as thief. It is not fun to be constantly harassed for playing the class. It is not fun to being forced to constantly adjust to yet another stupid nerf while other classes can literary afk and still collect their bags. It is not fun to be constantly target of the nerfs because people that have 0 idea about the class cry rivers for those nerfs.

Thief is also only class in game that automatically gets kicked from zergs due to being "waste of spot". So OP and yet so unwanted.

Privileged you say? How about guards/wars/eles/necros that have been "must have" since basically launch of wvw? That is what i call privileged. How about we bring those in line.

Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief & even if they can pull out such a feat the thief can simply disengage & come back later when the other guy has no cds.

=> one of the main causes for grouping / blobbing are the roaming thieves xD => you brought it upon yourselves boys.

@Sasajoe.1509 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Choppy.4183 said:

@Skada.1362 said:

@ZhouX.8742 said:After seeing sindrener and a few other top thieves playing with it, it didn't change much , but I think it depends if you're good or not. Not justifying the nerf, but just saying it hasn't shifted playstyles massively if you weren't already spammy with it.

Sindrener kept saying the changes are irrelevant, which may be true in a +1 PVP scenario. But WvW roaming is a whole other thing. As a solo roamer playing DP meta but also acro/tr/DD s/d I suffer hard from these nerfs. These nerfs took out alot of the fun in GW2 for me.

You're impacted more, but that's because the relatively wide open nature makes the dd mobility advantage far greater when roaming in wvw than playing pvp. Meaning, you're suffering a lost advantage that your pvp counterpart didn't really have.

DD mobility and defense potential really has supported a lower risk/reward style of roaming play than is reasonable, and (as has sometimes been the case with other classes) has allowed way too much cover for sloppy play.

The change could be good, though I'd defer to level headed people with greater knowledge of the class to say whether it was the right way to go.

Do not lump risk/reward of

escape

in the same boat as risk/reward of

actual combat.

The people who cry low risk/reward are simply irritated that they cannot

finish

the thief that they

already defeated

in combat. Your opponent ran away, big deal, take solace in the fact that you won the fight. Compare the risk/reward of a Thief's combat potential vs. the risk/reward of ...oh I don't know, lets say a Warrior's combat potential. Thief's risk doesn't look so low anymore, does it?If you're getting chewed up by a warrior while roaming on a hyper mobile dd, then the warrior is playing better than you.

Yes and if a hyper defensive Warrior is getting chewed up by a DD, the DD is playing better than him. You have no point here.

While roaming? The dd is at clear advantage unless he's constrained by time, whether because the warrior slips into a structure or gains allies to pressure the thief.

The hyper defensive warrior should otherwise never defeat a properly played mobile dd while roaming. If you're losing to them, then you have some work to do.

If a Warrior fights a Thief with a similar skill level, there is no reason the Warrior should lose given the kits between the two. If a the Thief disengages, the Warrior will be out of combat at the same time. I don't even know why I'm bothering laying it out to you here, I roam on both Warrior and Thief, I know the potential of both. Unfortunately, you don't seem to as your post history shows that you pretty much only play Warrior, and your bias is incredibly apparent. It seems you have some work to do as a Warrior if you are losing to Daredevils 1v1, especially since you main the one that has the advantage.

So you want to tell me & everyone on this forum that as soon as the warrior gets out of combat also gets his cooldowns reset ??? because the only thing a thief needs to wait for when resetting is his health to get back up while warr & many other classes have much lengthier skill cds.

I don't see where is the argument here - the thief is at clear advantage when resetting combat period

Except with improvisation thief doesn´t reset his cd´s either you know? Warrior has more health and toughness to begin with, so in theory the warrior gains actually more out of that resetting (more health gained and better effective health cause of toughness).

Cd´s overall aren´t really higher. shadowstep has 50sec, blinding powder 40sec, basi 45sec.Berserker stance now has 30sec cd. Does that magically change anything about what you talk about? No, because its irrelevant talking about resetting cd´s when getting ooc.

Thieves being good in disengaging doesn´t mean they kill anything. Is it annoying? of course, but saying "Other classes simply have to group up because if they go ALONE they don't have much chance vs a thief" (your quote) simply tells me you are terrible in this game and need help from others to kill anything. THAT leads to grouping/blobbing. So actually YOU are the problem.

Anything this change did was making thieves to fight less and disengage earlier.And proving that anet is still bad in balancing

Don't play the typical thief high horse knowing all snowflake, I have stomped many tryhard noob thieves to know how all they try to play (who also believe to be better than others by simply playing an easymode class who they try to disguise as high skill rofl can you immagine)

Judging by your post(salt) history, I don't believe you have beaten many Thieves...Just an educated guess here. ;P

[Vertep.2498]

@Coronit.9432 you also forgot to add as thief can burst same skill with initiative then this single skill have reduced cc time or other effects, when other classes have stun, daze etc for 1 sec minimum then thief daze have only for 1/4 so what it is? only to interrupt because even stun for 1/4 sec will do nothing to anyone but interrupt if casting

[Silvwy.2680]

There is my two-cents of the nerf to Unhindered Combatant:

To address those who think there is a way to workaround this nerf, I don't really see it possible in any real world scenario.When enemies apply cripple, chill, or immobilize, they either come as

1. An small attack, or auto that can be applied through rapid session, which ultimately is not worth dodging, or
2. A heavy attack, along with at least one of these conditions, that must be dodged, due to huge damaging condition application, or just a huge spike of power damage.

To avoid the first situation, the thief will have to dodge the cripple application to avoid receiving the debuff, and obviously, that usually is not a good trade. But if you choose to wait, you will have either one of the conditions, and hence you are forced to dodge the next heavy attack coming, on top of receiving the debuff, because there is no way to avoid the situation. While this is less of an issue when any of the three conditions comes with an huge attack, which you will have to dodge regardless, it is not realistic in any real world scenario, especially in WvW, because of the constant changes in the amount of enemies involved in your combat, especially in WvW.

Sure, in PvP, it would be a different case, not only because of the controlled number of enemies in a game, but also because of the nature of thief's role in sPvP does not require it to be constantly engaged in fighting. But for those who enjoys small skirmishes and outnumbered WvW fights, it becomes much more difficult to commit to fights.

ANet's original intention for this nerf is to reduce the disengagability that comes from UC, as stated in the Patch Notes, but the way they implemented is just not going to yield the result they were planning for.What actually (or very likely to) happens with this nerf is that thieves will want to disengage fights earlier, instead of committing to fights like before, and realize: "Oh crap! I am out of Endurance, now I can't get away from fights so I will have to commit more and try to kill my enemy before they kill me!", they will think: "Oh no, due to my lack of endurance, committing any further would put myself in a much bigger risk, so it is better to disengage now".

I just don't think nerf would reduce the "slippery-mess" of thieves in anyway. It is not going to force thieves to commit to fights to the point where they leave themselves no ability to escape. No matter how much they change the functionality of UC, it will not change thief player's mindset of playing a class that allows them to engage and disengage quickly, unless ANet decides completely scrap the core mechanic of the class.

Any thief that knows the basics knows the importance of endurance management, due to dodging being one of the only reliable damage mitigation thieves have. Unlike other classes, which has a number of defensive skills cool downs to manage, thieves, with only one main type of damage mitigation, will be exposed to the harsh condition of losing absolutely all other functionality of what dodge can offer when they removes any one of the moment impairing conditions. From what I can see, this is the equivalent of using one condition clear skill that removes a moment impairing condition at the cost of waiting for additional four seconds of cool down for all defensive skills, including those that mitigate power damage and condition damage (especially when traited with Escapist's Absolution, not mentioning how dodge can evade condition application skills themselves), just because of the mobility and disengagability this skill offers. I personally would still want to be able to dodge, even if it means that I'm immobilized and cannot move anywhere, than unable to dodge at all.

[Turk.5460]

@Silvwy.2680 said:There is my two-cents of the nerf to Unhindered Combatant:

To address those who think there is a way to workaround this nerf, I don't really see it possible in any real world scenario.When enemies apply cripple, chill, or immobilize, they either come as

1. An small attack, or auto that can be applied through rapid session, which ultimately is not worth dodging, or
2. A heavy attack, along with at least one of these conditions, that must be dodged, due to huge damaging condition application, or just a huge spike of power damage.

Cripple was what made the nerf so ridiculous. Not because of Exhaustion on Chill, nor because of Exhaustion on Immobilize. Cripple is thrown out of every profession, and almost every build, and it is nearly always tied to a small attack that is not worth dodging. I would rather UC updated to no longer remove cripple if this nerf stays.