Winds of Disenchantment - 25/90

[Sarge.9730]

@Evonet.1632 said:10 ppl are in a spot. A sneaky warrior comes in and drops Winds of Disenchantment. The first hit will immediately strip 60 (!!!) boons because of Enchantment Collapse. Your dodge is still not enough because winds of disenchantment radius is larger than a dodge distance.

That is assuming the Warrior has literally walked directly on top of you and those 9 other people while you what, just stood there and watched him queue up a 1.5 second cast time skill? The radius is only that big if you are at the absolute center of it and unless you fell asleep at the keyboard AND have 0 scourges in your group that should never happen.

[Aeolus.3615]

WoD is my last worries while figthing a SB

[Turk.5460]

@Evonet.1632 said:

@Turk.5460 said:You seem to be greatly overestimating the amount of pulsing AoE stuns that are prevalent in WvW, that prohibit multiple uses of stunbreaks to escape. Or maybe not, please enlighten me - which ones do you encounter?

Static field, Line of warding, Ring of Warding, Gravity Well, the inevitable succession of Heated Rebukes, Unsteady Ground, Dragon's Maw, Hunter's Mark.Out of all these skills, under a WoD, you can only leave Line of Warding and Unsteady ground, but it forces you to take a different path.Game's a lot different when you aren't 1v1'ing or 2v2'ing... I roam too... I don't give a crap about WoD when I roam.

You clearly don't have a grasp of how these CC's work, and even more so which ones you actually see in a coordinated push. Dragon's Maw, Hunter's Mark, and Ring of Warding are the only ones that someone would not be able to escape without stability. All three of these are from Guardians, 2 of them (Dragon's Maw and Hunter's Mark) barely see play anymore, and even less in an organized zerg. Ring of Warding is a stretch, considering Hammer Guardians have to be right on top of their target, all while not being CC'd themselves.

The rest are not pulsing - or can be easily walked around, once CC'd by them you can simply click your stunbreak and be on your way. If you need help learning how the abilities you posted function, please visit the GW2 Wiki.

[Evonet.1632]

@Turk.5460 said: simply click your stunbreak and be on your way. If you need help learning how the abilities you posted function, please visit the GW2 Wiki.

... sigh... yes... "click"... I'm gonna "click" my stunbreak. Clearly you know absolutely nothing about the current med to large scale meta, so GL with your warrior/thief roamings and HF clicking your skills: this thread is not for you.

Sarge, that example was just to show the difference between a WoD and a Plaguelands (that was above described has having the same territorial potential). The result stands as an example of what happens when you push: if you push with 25 ppl into 25 ppl and are able to see that 1 spellbreaker in the middle popping his WoD and interrupt them, then clearly you play in a completely different league than me (or anyone for that matter) and this thread is not for you either.

And Aeolus, if you fight spellbreakers using WoD you are either fighting bad spellbreakers or spellbreakers that are on their way to their groups and you interrupted. This thread ain't about 1v1's or 2v2's... this thread is about large scale fights.Either all the guilds that don't rely on WoD to transform are on plastic tier or NA, 'cause I never saw any. Every single battle fought by large competent groups, be it guilds or zergs or blobs, is decided by a WoD.

[Turk.5460]

@Evonet.1632 said:

@Turk.5460 said: simply click your stunbreak and be on your way. If you need help learning how the abilities you posted function, please visit the GW2 Wiki.

... sigh... yes... "click"... I'm gonna "click" my stunbreak. Clearly you know absolutely nothing about the current med to large scale meta, so GL with your warrior/thief roamings and HF clicking your skills: this thread is not for you.

Sarge, that example was just to show the difference between a WoD and a Plaguelands (that was above described has having the same territorial potential). The result stands as an example of what happens when you push: if you push with 25 ppl into 25 ppl and are able to see that 1 spellbreaker in the middle popping his WoD and interrupt them, then clearly you play in a completely different league than me (or anyone for that matter) and this thread is not for you either.

And Aeolus, if you fight spellbreakers using WoD you are either fighting bad spellbreakers or spellbreakers that are on their way to their groups and you interrupted. This thread ain't about 1v1's or 2v2's... this thread is about large scale fights.Either all the guilds that don't rely on WoD to transform are on plastic tier or NA, 'cause I never saw any. Every single battle fought by large competent groups, be it guilds or zergs or blobs, is decided by a WoD.

Thank you for conceding. I'm assuming that was what you were reluctantly doing here, since all you had left was to attack common terminology instead of how I proved you completely wrong. Although, it would also be nice to hear you say "Yes @Turk.5460, you are right and I am wrong." Oh...but are you going to instead virtually sigh because I said "hear" regarding a text format?

Please.

[Grim West.3194]

Wrong thread. Nm

[Turk.5460]

@SkyShroud.2865

These groups of players can coordinate with support and stunbreaks. However, that's not even an issue. Please go find a WvW video where a group of players pushes, and all of the lines of warding and uneven grounds are placed in such a strategic square to box someone in. You won't be able to find it, because that is not something that is remotely common in even the best and most coordinated of teams. Are you referring to multiple Static Fields? How often do you see those overlapping , as well as overlapping inside a WoD bubble. You don't. Please do not use a 50-60team perspective to talk about WvW where all of these arguments become irrelevant.

[Jski.6180]

Its the added boon strip ontop of the winds of disenchantment that is the problem. You can tell where the winds are and not go into it but you cant stop the aoe added strips from other ppl who cant deal with it.Having long cd strip all for boons is ok but low cd with low tells is not ok.Enchantment Collapse is the real problem here it needs to be on an icd of at least 5 sec.

Its the CD of these effect of boon strip that the real problem this is why scorge is one of the more op classes in wvw atm due to how low of a cd its strips are on.

[Choppy.4183]

@Jski.6180 said:Enchantment Collapse is the real problem here it needs to be on an icd of at least 5 sec.

Honestly, just a split second ICD should stop the chain reaction. So, EC would trigger for anyone caught in the initial bubble, and then anyone else who doesn't have the sense to walk out of it.

A long ICD doesn't seem warranted when people can walk out, and it would also kill the trait in small scale (e.g. a hammer based debuffer)=

[juno.1840]

I use to think it's broken, but now I dig the impact it has on large scale fights. It's another tool in a commander's arsenal.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

One could argue that the issue is it's synergy with Enchantment Collapse resulting on a instant strip of all boons to everyone inside the bubble.

This is the one and only issue with Spellbreaker. (As others have mentioned already)Winds of Disenchantment isn't the only skill you shouldn't be in, you seem to have forgotten that we have unblockable attacks and skills that do enough damage so that no boon will save you (Every tried tanking a meteor shower?)And having skills that change the way you move are great in my opinion because they add a new aspect to the game. If we could just run through any AoE without paying attention to them than what would be the point of AoE's in the first place? I agree that Winds of Disenchantment is arguably the strongest skill of that type in the game and I wouldn't mind if they increased it's cooldown or decreased the AoE slightly but the mechanic is fine as it is and as you (OP) mentioned, boonstrip is a neccessary counterplay to boons.

If you argue that it is too strong than why is blocking not too strong? Blocking has no counterplay, it just negates all damage. Or Guardians invulnerability, yet again, no counterplay, you're just immortal for a certain duration - is it broken? No, is it strong? Yeah. On the same page is Winds of Disenchantment, it's incredibly good at what it's doing but it does have counterplay, just walk out of it! Whereas Enchantment Collapse does not have counterplay because it just instantly removes everything, no insane reaction time will safe you.

We just need an internal Cooldown of anywhere between 1-5s on Enchantment Collapse and tadaa problem solved (+Winds of Disenchantment is still a good and interesting skill)

[Aeolus.3615]

@Jski.6180 said:Its the added boon strip ontop of the winds of disenchantment that is the problem. You can tell where the winds are and not go into it but you cant stop the aoe added strips from other ppl who cant deal with it.Having long cd strip all for boons is ok but low cd with low tells is not ok.Enchantment Collapse is the real problem here it needs to be on an icd of at least 5 sec.

Its the CD of these effect of boon strip that the real problem this is why scorge is one of the more op classes in wvw atm due to how low of a cd its strips are on.

Complete agree bvut the boon spam... went out of control as well cause everything was boons, so things get easilly broken when u try to compensate with the oposite.Just to think gw2 next expeact will be absicly more boon spam and condi spam in diretent classes ._.

im out...if this guys dont get the game at least decent for pvp combat.Besdides the remake of lineage "Project TL" from ncsoft looks rather interesting,

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Its the added boon strip ontop of the winds of disenchantment that is the problem. You can tell where the winds are and not go into it but you cant stop the aoe added strips from other ppl who cant deal with it.Having long cd strip all for boons is ok but low cd with low tells is not ok.Enchantment Collapse is the real problem here it needs to be on an icd of at least 5 sec.

Its the CD of these effect of boon strip that the real problem this is why scorge is one of the more op classes in wvw atm due to how low of a cd its strips are on.

Complete agree bvut the boon spam... went out of control as well cause everything was boons, so things get easilly broken when u try to compensate with the oposite.Just to think gw2 next expeact will be absicly more boon spam and condi spam in diretent classes ._.

im out...if this guys dont get the game at least decent for pvp combat.Besdides the remake of lineage "Project TL" from ncsoft looks rather interesting,

@Aeolus.3615 man.. take a break from the forums. It would seem as if you have been on each forum post on WvW about how horrible the game is. Take a breather man.. If the game is as unredeemable as you say, why do it?

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Turk.5460 said:@SkyShroud.2865

These groups of players can coordinate with support and stunbreaks. However, that's not even an issue. Please go find a WvW video where a group of players pushes, and all of the lines of warding and uneven grounds are placed in such a strategic square to box someone in. You won't be able to find it, because that is not something that is remotely common in even the best and most coordinated of teams. Are you referring to multiple Static Fields? How often do you see those overlapping , as well as overlapping inside a WoD bubble. You don't. Please do not use a 50-60team perspective to talk about WvW where all of these arguments become irrelevant.

Why would you use line when you have heated rebuke and gravity well, follow up with rev hammer 5?

[Coldtart.4785]

I think it's wrong to say that WoD is conceptually wrong because WoD is, conceptually, a boon strip. There's plenty of boon strip skills in the game and none of them are outrageously strong or game breaking. The only real difference between these skills and WoD is their power level. WoD strips boons at an alarming rate, especially when paired with enchantment collapse, and follows that up by preventing boon application. If it just stripped boons (more slowly than it does now) or it just blocked boon application there would be little issue.

[Djamonja.6453]

I don't think WoD is as big a deal as some people are making it out to be -- you can bait WoD out like any other long cooldown AoE, you can avoid it like any other AoE, or you can even just move through it quickly and get the boons rolling again. The Boon vs Boon strip meta isn't that great I admit, but that's a separate discussion.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

Beign chased down and having a WoD put on you and your zerg isnt that much of a deal, it takes a couple of seconds before you lose all your boons and by the time the ranged catches up to the warrior to bomb the WoD you've most likely gotten out.Where WoD shines the msot is choke fights: a prime example is Stone Mist inner hallways. It is best as a defensive tool and much harder to use during an open field fight. It's much easier to waste in and have all the enemies jsut pass through ti than to time it with the ranged classes and get a bomb off inside the WoD radius.

[Edu.6984]

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:

One could argue that the issue is it's synergy with Enchantment Collapse resulting on a instant strip of all boons to everyone inside the bubble.

This is the one and only issue with Spellbreaker. (As others have mentioned already)Winds of Disenchantment isn't the only skill you shouldn't be in, you seem to have forgotten that we have unblockable attacks and skills that do enough damage so that no boon will save you (Every tried tanking a meteor shower?)And having skills that change the way you move are great in my opinion because they add a new aspect to the game. If we could just run through any AoE without paying attention to them than what would be the point of AoE's in the first place? I agree that Winds of Disenchantment is arguably the strongest skill of that type in the game and I wouldn't mind if they increased it's cooldown or decreased the AoE slightly but the mechanic is fine as it is and as you (OP) mentioned, boonstrip is a neccessary counterplay to boons.

If you argue that it is too strong than why is blocking not too strong? Blocking has no counterplay, it just negates all damage. Or Guardians invulnerability, yet again, no counterplay, you're just immortal for a certain duration - is it broken? No, is it strong? Yeah. On the same page is Winds of Disenchantment, it's incredibly good at what it's doing but it does have counterplay, just walk out of it! Whereas Enchantment Collapse does not have counterplay because it just instantly removes everything, no insane reaction time will safe you.

We just need an internal Cooldown of anywhere between 1-5s on Enchantment Collapse and tadaa problem solved (+Winds of Disenchantment is still a good and interesting skill)

Since when does block have no counter? Half the skills on the game are unblockable. Necro wells and marks, mesmer GS2, etc.

[Seffen.2875]

I do not have a Problem with WoD anymore. Right now it is rather the Enchantment Collaps trait (or whatever it is called) which is so completely out of line. Give it an Internat Cooldown of like 1 to 2 seconds and we are completely fine. (Ah as i come to think about it even that is quite much. Maybe half a second or put it in line with the WoD pulses. So at least the trait can not pull so many boons at once)

[Evonet.1632]

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:Beign chased down and having a WoD put on you and your zerg isnt that much of a deal, it takes a couple of seconds before you lose all your boons

No it doesn't. If 5 players are caught inside the bubble, they instantly lose 6 boons and lose the other 5 (assuming they had all boons in the game) half a second later - So yes, all boons in half a second.

An ICD on enchantments collapse would still make the first hit strip 6 boons from 5 ppl, but I guess it wouldn't have much of an impact of 10 or more players. Could still be synergised with other boon strips and make it an uncounterable kill field which should not exist... but I guess it would be better than nothing.

My feeling reading this is that many here either don't play medium/large scale or that are yet to face an half decent guild... all pushes into them are literaly WoD + 6x Heated Rebuke + CoR + Met Shower. Death in 1 second with no counterplay (other than, of course, not pushing at all which is the entire point of this discussion). If you are yet to see the WoD+Rebuke+CoR combo, then you are yet to experience the real problem with WoD.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:

One could argue that the issue is it's synergy with Enchantment Collapse resulting on a instant strip of all boons to everyone inside the bubble.

This is the one and only issue with Spellbreaker. (As others have mentioned already)Winds of Disenchantment isn't the only skill you shouldn't be in, you seem to have forgotten that we have unblockable attacks and skills that do enough damage so that no boon will save you (Every tried tanking a meteor shower?)And having skills that change the way you move are great in my opinion because they add a new aspect to the game. If we could just run through any AoE without paying attention to them than what would be the point of AoE's in the first place? I agree that Winds of Disenchantment is arguably the strongest skill of that type in the game and I wouldn't mind if they increased it's cooldown or decreased the AoE slightly but the mechanic is fine as it is and as you (OP) mentioned, boonstrip is a neccessary counterplay to boons.

If you argue that it is too strong than why is blocking not too strong? Blocking has no counterplay, it just negates all damage. Or Guardians invulnerability, yet again, no counterplay, you're just immortal for a certain duration - is it broken? No, is it strong? Yeah. On the same page is Winds of Disenchantment, it's incredibly good at what it's doing but it does have counterplay, just walk out of it! Whereas Enchantment Collapse does not have counterplay because it just instantly removes everything, no insane reaction time will safe you.

We just need an internal Cooldown of anywhere between 1-5s on Enchantment Collapse and tadaa problem solved (+Winds of Disenchantment is still a good and interesting skill)

Since when does block have no counter? Half the skills on the game are unblockable. Necro wells and marks, mesmer GS2, etc.

Half the Skills? Elementalist has TWO unblockable damaging skill (Phoenix and Static Field, not counting those that deal no damage)Engi has ZERO unblockable damaging skills!Guardian has ONE unblockable damaging skill (Deflecting shot)Mesmer has ONE unblockable damaging skill (Mirror blade)etc

Utility Skills are slighty more damaging ones:Ele has Two (Tornado Elite and Perfect Weave Elite)Mesmer Zero

Actually: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable just see for yourself.

Yes, some classes have enough access to VIABLE unblockable skills so that, for them, Blocking enemies are just the same as normal enemies. But for other classes a blocking enemy might just as well be immortal for a certain duration.

My Point is NOT that Block is too strong, my point is that, just because a mechanic has very little counterplay does not mean it's broken. Both block and unblockable attacks are very limited, not many classes have access to them and not every skill that grants access to them is actually reasonable. And since Winds of Disenchantment is limited to Warrior AND on a 90 Second Cooldown AND can be avoided (long cast time and it's an AoE so you can just walk out of it to avoid the effect) it is absolutely not OP.

Enchantment Collapse on the other hand can not be avoided, as soon as Winds of Disenchantment hits 2-3 Enemies Enchantment Collapse will remove a total of 10-15 Boons across up to 15 Players (not including the initial Boon removal of Winds of Disenchantment since that is pretty much irrelevant at that point) And this happens on initial cast + every 1/2s and it's unblockable as well. Even if you successfully avoided Winds of Disenchantment you can still get hit by Enchantment Collapse if some of your Allies are still standing in the WoD.

Enchantment Collapse has absolutely no individual Counterplay, you can't dodge it, block it or avoid it, except if you stand as far away as possible from every enemy spellbreaker, which is not really a counterplay.Winds of Disenchantment however can be avoided, it has a long cast time so in theory you can interrupt it or you can pay attention and walk away from the warrior to avoid the WoD (And most likely still get hit by Enchantment Collapse!) Or you could rush through WoD to quickly close the gap to your target (Rushing through WoD, not considering Enchantment Collapse, would remove 1-2 Boons depending on how fast you are, however, thanks to Enchantment Collapse those 1-2 Boons would turn into 6-12 across you and your nearby Allies)

And now spot the culprit please.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

@Evonet.1632 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:Beign chased down and having a WoD put on you and your zerg isnt that much of a deal, it takes a couple of seconds before you lose all your boons

No it doesn't. If 5 players are caught inside the bubble, they instantly lose 6 boons and lose the other 5 (assuming they had all boons in the game) half a second later - So yes, all boons in half a second.

An ICD on enchantments collapse would still make the first hit strip 6 boons from 5 ppl, but I guess it wouldn't have much of an impact of 10 or more players. Could still be synergised with other boon strips and make it an uncounterable kill field which should not exist... but I guess it would be better than nothing.

My feeling reading this is that many here either don't play medium/large scale or that are yet to face an half decent guild... all pushes into them are literaly WoD + 6x Heated Rebuke + CoR + Met Shower. Death in 1 second with no counterplay (other than, of course, not pushing at all which is the entire point of this discussion). If you are yet to see the WoD+Rebuke+CoR combo, then you are yet to experience the real problem with WoD.

Want to start off with: I play on EU t1 so yeah ive had my fair share of very good guild groups and large scaled fights. Not that it matters.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Disenchantment

The skill removes 2 boons /sec (3 or more if traited and others are around) This makes my statement very much true.Combined with the fact that the skill only has a 360 radius and not eg the same raidus as meteor shower, in addition to my example (where rather than being face to face with the enemy, you are running away from them) the WoD is much less effective and easier to get out of than some want to make it sound like.

I do however agree on puting an ICD on either the trait or WoD itself

[SkyShroud.2865]

@Coldtart.4785 said:I think it's wrong to say that WoD is conceptually wrong because WoD is, conceptually, a boon strip. There's plenty of boon strip skills in the game and none of them are outrageously strong or game breaking. The only real difference between these skills and WoD is their power level. WoD strips boons at an alarming rate, especially when paired with enchantment collapse, and follows that up by preventing boon application. If it just stripped boons (more slowly than it does now) or it just blocked boon application there would be little issue.

Exactly, WOD is just stripping too fast. I will be okay if is just 1 boon per 0.75s or 1s instead of 1 boon per 0.5s. It is not gonna make WOD useless because preventing boons within it is already very powerful thing.

[Miko.4158]

it's an elite skill, and the purpose of 'spellbreaker'. The cast time is already a killer and it does no damage......

[Aeolus.3615]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Its the added boon strip ontop of the winds of disenchantment that is the problem. You can tell where the winds are and not go into it but you cant stop the aoe added strips from other ppl who cant deal with it.Having long cd strip all for boons is ok but low cd with low tells is not ok.Enchantment Collapse is the real problem here it needs to be on an icd of at least 5 sec.

Its the CD of these effect of boon strip that the real problem this is why scorge is one of the more op classes in wvw atm due to how low of a cd its strips are on.

Complete agree bvut the boon spam... went out of control as well cause everything was boons, so things get easilly broken when u try to compensate with the oposite.Just to think gw2 next expeact will be absicly more boon spam and condi spam in diretent classes ._.

im out...if this guys dont get the game at least decent for pvp combat.Besdides the remake of lineage "Project TL" from ncsoft looks rather interesting,

@Aeolus.3615 man.. take a break from the forums. It would seem as if you have been on each forum post on WvW about how horrible the game is. Take a breather man.. If the game is as unredeemable as you say, why do it?

Trying tho... seriously, i even started to play DnD neverwinter on weekends, guardians have barrier there and that game is not 1211111 based, but i still like to play WvW (getting ktrained by condi blobs most time) with players ive met in this game, most already dropped the game but theres still a few on.

^^

EDIT: and Winds_of_Disenchantment is not a problem, the issue is the spam both on condi and boons, and the gimmicks ANet adds to counter both spams rather than balance them.The issue is ANet dont change the pve class design... if u make a class with pve mentality to work on pvp it will not work well... wich is actually what is happening. :PMy issue with SB is full counter, issue is not the CD never was, but how easy it is to trigger it, even if u have to hit a mob neaby to trigger the aoe against a target that knows he cant atack.