Remove core revenants ability to provide pernament alacrity.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid attacking each other. I've removed a few posts.

Regards.

[Kulvar.1239]

22 hours ago, Echo.6310 said:

To put it simply, taking away the alacrity from Serene Rejuvenation would remove the freedom to reduce the amount of boon duration needed for a Renegade that is built to heal to provide enough alacrity while (instead of Righteous Rebel) traited with Lasting Legacy as a source of might.

Heya pals, bored of Diviner Rev?

That's not freedom if it cripple the class design possibilities though.

As for the Might, very little change needed.

Heroic Command gives 12s Might x3 per Kalla's Fervor, but energy cost is increased to 20.
Lasting Legacy no longer increase the amount of Might nor the duration, but halves the energy cost back to 10.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/8/2022 at 7:06 AM, Echo.6310 said:

People just aren't satisfied with classes being unique anymore. This boring trend of "my class should do everything" is getting old.

"Bring the player, not the profession". It's going to happen. Guild Wars 2 was never supposed to have professions with clearly defined roles, and while it ended up happening in HoT and PoF, they're re-affirming the original philosophy now.

The OP does have a point. The Serene Rejuvenation change was made before renegade existed, when ArenaNet realised they'd made chronomancer far too essential to the meta and nerfing it was just making the problem worse so they had to introduce some competition. And they can't really add group quickness to a future elite specialisation without risking creating a build that can heal, alacrity, and quickness all at once. 

YMMV on whether this is important. In the medium term (namely, the period between now and the next expansion), it doesn't really matter. But we are at a point now where three professions each have a build that can provide quickness and a build that can provide alacrity, and that number is probably going to increase in future expansions.

(Mind you, after June, we'll probably have three professions that can provide quickness and/or alacrity on core builds, so maybe the long-term philosophy will be that there'll be some professions that can do either but need to pick specific elite specialisations to do so, while others might be able to do only one but can do so with any elite specialisation.)

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And they can't really add group quickness to a future elite specialisation without risking creating a build that can heal, alacrity, and quickness all at once.

Worth noting that Heal/Support Chrono can already do this with heavy investment.  The only thing it can't do is 25 might. 

If in future Revenant does get a quickness spec as long as they don't give it boon extension like Vindicator or Herald or extra energy gain like Core it should be fine since the current duration of Alacrity from Serene Rejuvenation makes the rotation rather tight and inflexible.  On top of the lack of flexibility in the rotation it also requires more boon duration than Chrono so current Core/Herald/Vindicator Alacs have to heavily specialize meaning it will severly lack dps.  As we've seen with Support Chrono, heavy specialization and lack of damage has made the spec less valuable to the playerbase when compared to the other hybrid options that can do both some damage and good support.  Anet will have to figure out if this sort of "heavy specialization" is okay within the game or not and if they're okay with Full Support Chrono being an outlier or not.  I was surprised to see them pre-emptively nerf Spectre not once, but twice, since they "didn't want it to do Quickness and Alac at the same time," yet Spectre's entire quickness/alac rotation was extremely specialized and would have had it contributing even less dps and utility to the group than Chrono.  It seems they've either forgotten Chrono exists, have made some sort of an exception for it, or don't have a hard rule as to what specializations can do both alac/quickness at the same time.  

[draxynnic.3719]

I think Chronomancer is considered to be an exception, partly because of the theme (they've nerfed the alacrity granting pretty hard, but they can't take it away from a specialisation based on speeding things up and slowing them down altogether) and partially because it doesn't really do much otherwise. Maybe I've missed something, but I've never really heard of heal chronomancer being a thing so much as...well, if you're in Minstrel's for tanking and self-sustain anyway, a little bit of pressure off the main healer is better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think Chronomancer is considered to be an exception, partly because of the theme (they've nerfed the alacrity granting pretty hard, but they can't take it away from a specialisation based on speeding things up and slowing them down altogether) and partially because it doesn't really do much otherwise. Maybe I've missed something, but I've never really heard of heal chronomancer being a thing so much as...well, if you're in Minstrel's for tanking and self-sustain anyway, a little bit of pressure off the main healer is better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick.

While heal Chrono isn’t well accepted or known its actually quite functional you just have to build around it a little bit differently than you would the traditional tank/support role.  My static has used it before and it’s surprisingly decent.  Not great in all situations though. 
 

As for Chrono not doing much else, that’s what I was getting at in comparison to Core Alacrity variants of Revenant that aren’t Renegade; Chrono still actually provides more than a theoretical “Revenant with quickness/Alac at the same time” assuming that hypothetical variant ended up with similar capabilities and restrictions to the current heal-Alac non-Ren variants 

Edited April 10, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Virdo.1540]

Just make it give regeneration. For gods sake  why do we have a healing legend that cant even give regeneration.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Just make it give regeneration. For gods sake  why do we have a healing legend that cant even give regeneration.

We already have 2 elites specs for that, Herald can reach 1.1k regen ticks, same has Vindicator, the only dif is one is AOE,  the other can become a  passivate cost of energy  around its caster.

If u ment healing spec has ventari, ventari is more to catch spikes  and a panic team heal, used to heal arround 15k heals aoe when was released now at 10k aoe heals and 7k on wvw.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 4/7/2022 at 3:14 PM, celestia.3829 said:

.... Alacrity on core means vindi CANNOT have quickness. if it had quickness it would provide might,quick and alac - making it compress all roles into one healer. 

Vindicator should NOT be a team based E-spec. We have TWO E-specs meant for team play even though herald can't fulfill that role now doesn't mean that it was not its intended spot. Renegade is ALL group/support/amps for the group. If anything Vindicator should of been our selfish spec designed solely around us and making us a bruiser which mind you core can fulfill but it's not the best and doesn't feel good to play really. But it's doable. 

If A-net is really focused on bringing ALL types of gameplay to every class, be it support, bruiser, dps, tank, healer and so on then this spec being made to be another boon bot/group support would just mean rev has nothing it fulfills on its own and is solely a stand in for something else. And you mean to tell me you want vindicator to try and out quickness firebrand? You want that role? Next you're going to tell me you want rev's next spec to be a glorified banner slave. 

Every spec does NOT need to be group centric, every build does not need to offer something to your party outside of killing potential.

[Jthug.9506]

Uhh I actually love my heal alac boon extension vindicator build, this would make me quite sad.

[celestia.3829]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:37 AM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Worth noting that Heal/Support Chrono can already do this with heavy investment.  The only thing it can't do is 25 might. 

If in future Revenant does get a quickness spec as long as they don't give it boon extension like Vindicator or Herald or extra energy gain like Core it should be fine since the current duration of Alacrity from Serene Rejuvenation makes the rotation rather tight and inflexible.  On top of the lack of flexibility in the rotation it also requires more boon duration than Chrono so current Core/Herald/Vindicator Alacs have to heavily specialize meaning it will severly lack dps.  As we've seen with Support Chrono, heavy specialization and lack of damage has made the spec less valuable to the playerbase when compared to the other hybrid options that can do both some damage and good support.  Anet will have to figure out if this sort of "heavy specialization" is okay within the game or not and if they're okay with Full Support Chrono being an outlier or not.  I was surprised to see them pre-emptively nerf Spectre not once, but twice, since they "didn't want it to do Quickness and Alac at the same time," yet Spectre's entire quickness/alac rotation was extremely specialized and would have had it contributing even less dps and utility to the group than Chrono.  It seems they've either forgotten Chrono exists, have made some sort of an exception for it, or don't have a hard rule as to what specializations can do both alac/quickness at the same time.  

this isnt an issue for chrono for many reasons:

-alac and healing are  both bad, and require close immobile stacking

- no might

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, celestia.3829 said:

this isnt an issue for chrono for many reasons:

-alac and healing are  both bad, and require close immobile stacking

- no might

 

-Healing on Chrono is actually not bad, you just have to change a few things around.  My group has run Heal Support Chrono before and it worked fine.  Is it the best healer?  No, far from it, but it's not bad and it does work. 

-Alacrity uptime from Core/Herald/Vindicator ALSO requires "close immobile stacking" even more-so than chrono.  Alacrity from Ventari is in a 240 radius as are most of the other boons provided by Revenant.  The Alacrity applied per pulse is so little, even at 100% BD, that the group has to be within that 240 radius for a good amount of time (far longer and more often than chrono) in order to not drop alacrity at all through movement/mechanics/etc.  The rotation is extremely easy to mess up as well if mechanics are needed to be handled as well and Rev mostly loses the ability to heal from a distance if it's expected to provide alacrity from Ventari. 

-If Quickness was given to Rev for one of its elite specs, they could easily make it so it provides little might as well.  Nothing in Core Rev provides good might uptime for a group; only the elites do, so this would be something that could be directly balanced through the elites. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[celestia.3829]

7 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

-Healing on Chrono is actually not bad, you just have to change a few things around.  My group has run Heal Support Chrono before and it worked fine.  Is it the best healer?  No, far from it, but it's not bad and it does work. 

-Alacrity uptime from Core/Herald/Vindicator ALSO requires "close immobile stacking" even more-so than chrono.  Alacrity from Ventari is in a 240 radius as are most of the other boons provided by Revenant.  The Alacrity applied per pulse is so little, even at 100% BD, that the group has to be within that 240 radius for a good amount of time (far longer and more often than chrono) in order to not drop alacrity at all through movement/mechanics/etc.  The rotation is extremely easy to mess up as well if mechanics are needed to be handled as well and Rev mostly loses the ability to heal from a distance if it's expected to provide alacrity from Ventari. 

-If Quickness was given to Rev for one of its elite specs, they could easily make it so it provides little might as well.  Nothing in Core Rev provides good might uptime for a group; only the elites do, so this would be something that could be directly balanced through the elites. 

untrue, alac on rev is lots of small pulses instead of one big one, making it less punishing

[InsaneQR.7412]

While we are add it, can we move serene rejuvination to a major trait slot and swap it with something that would help more builds not using ventari?

I always feel i miss out on this trait because i dont wanna use ventari although i would love to build a Rev with salvation for more durability and support.

 

Edit: its also weird that a specific legend skill type benefits from a minor trait. I dont khow any other class that has a minir trait benefitting one specific type of utility skill.

Edited April 26, 2022 by InsaneQR.7412

[Dadnir.5038]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:02 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

And they can't really add group quickness to a future elite specialisation without risking creating a build that can heal, alacrity, and quickness all at once.

Chrono say Hi!

Willbender ask you if you want to "feel his wrath!" for some quickness on top of alacrity.

The devs intend to give core warrior group Quick and core ranger group Alac in the very near futur.

Specs that give both alacrity and quickness already exist and are bound to appear in the futur. I don't think Serene rejuvenation is what prevented the devs from giving rev a group quickness spec so far. 

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Chrono say Hi!

Willbender ask you if you want to "feel his wrath!" for some quickness on top of alacrity.

The devs intend to give core warrior group Quick and core ranger group Alac in the very near futur.

Specs that give both alacrity and quickness already exist and are bound to appear in the futur. I don't think Serene rejuvenation is what prevented the devs from giving rev a group quickness spec so far. 

The boons situations will get worse and worse, and with next expantion we will have more classes providing more perma team boons...all classes will be alble to do what other class do thats the class design that Anet has been doing.

 

Gw2 boons system makes 0 sense,  aoe team perma invunerability soon cause it will be game changer! :D haha

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Dadnir.5038]

9 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

The boons situations will get worse and worse, and with next expantion we will have more classes providing more perma team boons...

Gw2 boons system makes 0 sense,  aoe team perma invunerability soon cause it will be game changer! 😄 haha

Well, they want their professions to be able to do anything so that you bring the "player" not the "profession". Maybe we will have more professions able to grant stability, it would be refreshing don't you think?

[Aeolus.3615]

9 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, they want their professions to be able to do anything so that you bring the "player" not the "profession". Maybe we will have more professions able to grant stability, it would be refreshing don't you think?

In future all classes will be able to provide stability within the new elite specs, some can be self stab, others will provide aoe stab same will happen to any other boon.

The issue is its redudancy concept, that kinda  borks up the stacking effect since everything stacks at minimal effort, with perma boons there isnt much player skill involved, and due how easy is to stack boons there isnt much use boons at the right situation since most ive seen have most of the boons for a very long time and easilly resplendished when removed.

(off topic note: reason why the current CC and pulls need to exist and be abused, its the counter meta) 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Jthug.9506]

On 4/23/2022 at 5:15 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

-Healing on Chrono is actually not bad, you just have to change a few things around.  My group has run Heal Support Chrono before and it worked fine.  Is it the best healer?  No, far from it, but it's not bad and it does work. 

-Alacrity uptime from Core/Herald/Vindicator ALSO requires "close immobile stacking" even more-so than chrono.  Alacrity from Ventari is in a 240 radius as are most of the other boons provided by Revenant.  The Alacrity applied per pulse is so little, even at 100% BD, that the group has to be within that 240 radius for a good amount of time (far longer and more often than chrono) in order to not drop alacrity at all through movement/mechanics/etc.  The rotation is extremely easy to mess up as well if mechanics are needed to be handled as well and Rev mostly loses the ability to heal from a distance if it's expected to provide alacrity from Ventari. 

-If Quickness was given to Rev for one of its elite specs, they could easily make it so it provides little might as well.  Nothing in Core Rev provides good might uptime for a group; only the elites do, so this would be something that could be directly balanced through the elites. 

I play heal alac boon support rev and even with 100% boon duration spamming the tablet isn’t very effective, the only reason it works well for vindicator is because it can get boon extension from the dodge which it can do fairly often with energy sigils and f2. And yes the radius is punishing just like chrono wells, but if people stack properly it’s ok.

 

So imo it’s pretty reasonable to think anet will be able to give revenant a quickness build in the future without tablet being a big problem.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 minute ago, Jthug.9506 said:

I play heal alac boon support rev and even with 100% boon duration spamming the tablet isn’t very effective, the only reason it works well for vindicator is because it can get boon extension from the dodge which it can do fairly often with energy sigils and f2. And yes the radius is punishing just like chrono wells, but if people stack properly it’s ok.

 

So imo it’s pretty reasonable to think anet will be able to give revenant a quickness build in the future without tablet being a big problem.

Exactly.  It already has a more punishing rotation to provide the alacrity than the other options (including chrono) and it only works well-ish because of the boon extension on Herald and Vindicator.  There's definitely room for a quickness option in another Elite and if they need to can definitely "alter the ventari alacrity" specifically for another Elite (they've done similar things on other classes) if it proves to be too much

[celestia.3829]

I know its been a while, but this is taken from the most recent post.

• Revenant: Legendary Centaur Stance skills and Salvation traits have been updated to better support healing roles, while herald will now be able to provide quickness to allies with the trait Draconic Echo.
• Although it doesnt say it explicity, i think it is likely that alacrticty has been removed from core.

 

[Jthug.9506]

Yeah and most of revenant’s outgoing healing bonus went with it. Gg anet. 

[Aeolus.3615]

On 4/23/2022 at 9:43 PM, celestia.3829 said:

this isnt an issue for chrono for many reasons:

-alac and healing are  both bad, and require close immobile stacking

- no might

 

Ventari can aply migh with tablet (punny  1 might OKEY :P)  but  will aply way more might since all skills will give boons.