I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Feanor.2358]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:They clearly stated that these meters broke their ToS, and still do to this day, but they don't kick people for using them, or if they do, it's anecdotal. The same is true in other game modes regarding other issues and clear hacks. If they actually policed their game as much as they did the forums, then our conversation would be totally different.

Can you please post where they said DPS meter are breaking the TOS?and what "hacks" are you talking about?

Honestly i wonder if thered be half the issues if the tool itself was offered by Arenanet, instead of a third party.

There isn't much of an issue. Some fuss on the forums, caused by mostly the same handful of people. I'd guess they'd complain about meters regardless, and this just saved ANet some work. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind to ditch the 3rd party software (nothing personal, /deltaconnected, great job btw :P) in favor of an official meter, but I don't expect it is anywhere near the top of ANet's priority list.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@Fermi.2409 said:

DPS meters that spy on people ARE bad.

"Spy on" people in a dungeon by looking at how much damage they're doing to a mob everyone is beating up and seeing how many boons they're getting, which you can see on their buff bar?

This deliberately misses the point.DPS meters are only legal if they

do not read other players' data

.

Granted, if 4 out of 5 people in a group run and share meters, it's not hard to figure out the last person's contribution, at least in a DPS sense. Even boons come with a source, so those contributions would be visible so long as they land on a player with a meter.And if the group adverts for a meter, well no harm no foul if someone gets asked to leave.

The problems OP and others are seeing:Not having a meter to share, yet being told DPS is low and kicked. (Meters used to "spy" on someone against ToS.)Group

not

advertising a meter as a requirement then kicking.

Uhm if a player joins a group they automatically give consent since the dps they do is not private data, this has been stated and confirmed by Arenanet Devs. Right now there is only one Meter that is TOS compliant and that is Arcdps it doesn't pull any data that is not allowed by Arenanet to be read/transmitted, again as stated by Devs more Specifically Chris Cleary who works closely with deltaconnected(Arcdps creator) to ensure its compliance with TOS.

Again if someone is using a non compliant Meter and is using meters for overly toxic purposes, report them, that option is in game.

So no one is being spied on with the TOS compliant Meter, Anet has issued their official responses on this matter etc..

[Cynn.1659]

@deltaconnected.4058 said:

@Coconut.7082 said:Did you mean: no Ranger no Necro? Dungeoneers only? Meta Zerk? Kicks for refusing to exploit Mossman on top of the cabin? Eternal / Slippery Slubling only? Spirit Quest Tonic? 50+ LI? Ping full Gear? 4 Tempests only?

Nah, All those didn't exist before DPS meters.

What else could be caused by those spiteful tools?Look at Mystic Coin price!! It was below 1g before DPS meters were legal, and where is it now?!

You caught me. I'm secretly siphoning all these accounts of mystic coins and hoarding them for myself B)

I love the fact that people rambling abut meters, didn't even realize that creator of arc replied here.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Sarie.1630 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

If you want to play your necro, or you want a more casual run... then make your own lfg, or join one that is aimed towards that goal.

Back when people cared about dungeons and you'd get aggressive warrior heavy meta-only groups there people would say the exact same thing. It's not bad advice, it's logical, but it doesn't always work. I will occasionally make an explicitly "casual" run for something because I want to play something non meta or, gasp, not want to care about rotations. More often than you might think you will get 3 people join you because it's a casual run, but then one guy joins and yells at people all the way through because you're not fast enough or understand the content well enough. You can't really defend against people joining but not taking cognisance of what the group is for.

The attitude and inflexibility of people, and the "dps meter intrusion", however useful and justifiable people find it all, really turns me off group content in GW2 these days. Toxicity just escalates.

I went from level 70-80 spamming CoF on my necros (just before HoT) in greens/blues and only had an issue one time in a party with a guy who started raging because we didn't burn the final boss fast enough so he died because he didn't understand mechanics such as dodging and using heals. The killspeed was still reasonable enough since there were other 80's in the party, but being an open run it wasn't amazingly quick.

I told him to shut up and deal with it while the rest of us took it down. He didn't and kept raging, so I then kicked him mid-boss, and we proceeded to end the fight.No loot for him, no competion for him. He just wasted his time. I don't understand why people let these players stay in their groups. Kick them without hesitation and fill the slot if truly necessary, and if you're an important member in a raid like a healer and can't manage the kick... just leave. Let these so-called "pros" spend the extra time waiting for a fill. There are tons of people strapped for time who'd like a faster run by starting halfway through if they can get one and the group can hold its own, and a lot who just want a relaxed run when they aren't.

Frankly, before HoT killed off dungeons, I almost never had a problem making my own groups to run casual groups, and these groups rarely ever had issues. One of my fastest runs ever was from a casual off-meta group timing just a bit over 5 mins for CoF.

The toxicity is definitely up since catering to the "hardcore" scene - PvE metas by strict definition don't exist; they're just optimizations dependent on balance patches from the developers, so every patch just becomes about whatever is optimal, and once people have hard data to back up their claims, they feel a need to enforce that you too must be playing in such a time-optimal fashion. For this reason, I've stopped playing PvE altogether since. It's so stale I don't see a reason to justify doing it, since the rewards are at best some shiny pixels which in the context of literally everything mean nothing.

The motivation for this toxic attitude ultimately comes from gating such strong/good rewards behind the content; people playing solely for rewards encourages this kind of behavior because then they just want to solve the equation for gaining loot faster to do whatever else is is they want to do that isn't running the same content over and over. Them running the content more and more doesn't help improve their attitudes, either, especially towards newer players.

Really, the problems behind the toxicity aren't solvable within just the confines of PvE changes or the community; ANet needs to recognize the precedent of going back to their manifesto and rewarding all players in all modes fairly equally, even in terms of skins, they need to be much faster at deploying profession changes to reduce staleness in both the PvP/WvW metas and to keep players guessing in PvE on what is optimal, and they also need to design encounters in ways which do not simply always get time of completion cut by pumping out huge damage numbers, such as timed onslaught fights (CoF) and miscellaneous other types of encounters (CoE lasers), or ones which also help justify tankier builds for more than just an out-of-combat one-off endeavor (crossing a dangerous area to unlock a shortcut for the rest of the party that requires a party split for example akin to the Dredge fractal).

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Abakk.9176 said:

LFG is not so good because that is where the damage is done.Everyone and their mother comes in through LFG and there people are supposed to learn through trial and error.After that they might wish to get organised and join a guild or remain outside of instances at all.

That freedom is damaged by players that scold and kick unsuspecting newcomers.

You are incorrect as to the purpose of the LFG tool. The LFG is a convenience tool, which allows people to find a group doing content they want to do, without having to use some other means to find a group, (like making the effort to develop a friend's list or find a guild). LFG is the enabler of drop-in gaming. How do I know? I know because that is both how the tool is designed and how it is used. If some players are able to use the LFG tool to learn, that is purely a side effect of its real purpose.

[Makai.3429]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@Makai.3429 said:Heh. Still waiting for that "unlike many, our group doesn't have abelists, please come in" checklist in the LFG tool.If the groups without specific requirements dont fulfill your wishes, why dont you open one yourself?

Too afraid/tired of being belittled for not being able to match post-HoT/raid flawlessness, I guess.

[MiniMe.1960]

Like it a lot. Helps me to see where i can improve. Also I like elitist. I actually can learn from them.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Uhm if a player joins a group they automatically give consent since the dps they do is not private data, this has been stated and confirmed by Arenanet Devs.

LOL ! This is one of the most hypocritical statements coming from an official. If the statement is TRUE, that means (for example) that by joining ANet, any employee automatically give consent to share his home / bank account/ wife with the others :3.A consent regarding such private data should be explicit and very clear.How can you tell us that the individual DPS is not private data? Why I cannot see the DPS of another player without hacking the system memory? I think the answer is simple - because the DPS is a private data.

@Dante.1763 said:Honestly i wonder if thered be half the issues if the tool itself was offered by Arenanet, instead of a third party.

You won't see a DPS meter from ANet. Not that they cannot do one or they have no time to do one. The answer is even simpler - they know that any kind of DPS meter is against the ToS. And by breaking their own rules will turn GW2 in a "hacka paradise". They should change the ToS before offering this kind of tool to the community.

[Faaris.8013]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

Uhm if a player

joins

a group they

automatically give consent

since the dps they do is not private data, this has been stated and confirmed by Arenanet Devs.

LOL ! This is one of the most hypocritical statements coming from an official. If the statement is TRUE, that means (for example) that by

joining

ANet, any employee

automatically give consent

to share his home / bank account/ wife with the others :3.A consent regarding such private data should be

explicit

and very clear.How can you tell us that the individual DPS is not private data? Why I cannot see the DPS of another player without hacking the system memory? I think the answer is simple - because

the DPS is

a private data.

@Dante.1763 said:Honestly i wonder if thered be half the issues if the tool itself was offered by Arenanet, instead of a third party.

You won't see a DPS meter from ANet. Not that they cannot do one or they have no time to do one. The answer is even simpler - they know that

any

kind of DPS meter is against the ToS. And by breaking their own rules will turn GW2 in a "hacka paradise". They should change the ToS before offering this kind of tool to the community.

What you are saying is contrary to reality. Arcdps is a third party tool that shows your party members' dps, and it is tolerated by ArenaNet. You can use it and talk about it and you will not get banned. It is not violating the Terms of Services. I conclude that ArenaNet does not consider your toon's dps as private data, and they own this data anyway. Your allegory with with an employee's bank account makes no sense at all. You are simply paying to get access to Anet's services, you own nothing in this game. The only thing that's private data here is your email address and your credit card info that you might have provided, maybe the IP address you are logging in from, depends on the law of your country.

[Wolfheart.7483]

I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I prefer a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Faaris.8013 said:

What you are saying is contrary to reality. Arcdps is a third party tool that shows your party members' dps, and it is tolerated by ArenaNet. You can use it and talk about it and you will not get banned. It is not violating the Terms of Services. I conclude that ArenaNet does not consider your toon's dps as private data, and they own this data anyway. Your allegory with with an employee's bank account makes no sense at all. You are simply paying to get access to Anet's services, you own nothing in this game. The only thing that's private data here is your email address and your credit card info that you might have provided, maybe the IP address you are logging in from, depends on the law of your country.

I think you are wrong. Indeed the Arcdps is a third party program. But look at what ANet says in the GW2 User agreement - section 8:PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES:**- software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;

• software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;**Exactly what Arcdps does. So, one ANet employee says that an activity labeled as illegal and prohibited by GW2 User Agreement is in fact allowed and legally because he says so. This is the reason why I said the statement is hypocritical. ANet should change the Agreement in order to make the statement correct. Or ANet should ask the employees to read the GW2 User Agreement before any statement.

About ownership in the game - let's look again at what Anet says: (section 2)"ArenaNet hereby grants You a revocable, non-exclusive, license for personal and non-commercial use of Service, Content and Game that is non-transferable except as permitted under Section 9©."

You see: PERSONAL USE OF SERVICE. That means I own a license. This license can be terminated in case I break the Agreement. Owning a license grants you the right to create an account. ANet can change the name / Character ID - if these are against the rules or even delete the account in some circumstances. In any case (and nowhere in the Agreement) ANet did not say they can share your characters between accounts. Or that they can share your gold / items with other players. Because these are personal. And now, one of the ANet employees says that if you join a group you agree to share your personal data with others.

So, I think is clear that the analogy with the real life is perfectly fine.

And again - if the NPC's DPS are not private data, why we cannot see them in our log? You only see your own DPS in the log. But you need a software to see my DPS. Software stated by ANet to be illegal - see again Section 8 in the GW2 User Agreement.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

What you are saying is contrary to reality. Arcdps is a third party tool that shows your party members' dps, and it is tolerated by ArenaNet. You can use it and talk about it and you will not get banned. It is not violating the Terms of Services. I conclude that ArenaNet does not consider your toon's dps as private data, and they own this data anyway. Your allegory with with an employee's bank account makes no sense at all. You are simply paying to get access to Anet's services, you own nothing in this game. The only thing that's private data here is your email address and your credit card info that you might have provided, maybe the IP address you are logging in from, depends on the law of your country.

I think you are wrong. Indeed the Arcdps is a third party program. But look at what ANet says in the GW2 User agreement - section 8:PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES:**- software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;

• software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;**Exactly what Arcdps does. So, one ANet employee says that an activity labeled as illegal and prohibited by GW2 User Agreement is in fact allowed and legally because he says so. This is the reason why I said the statement is hypocritical. ANet should change the Agreement in order to make the statement correct. Or ANet should ask the employees to read the GW2 User Agreement before any statement.

About ownership in the game - let's look again at what Anet says: (section 2)"ArenaNet hereby grants You a revocable, non-exclusive, license for personal and non-commercial use of Service, Content and Game that is non-transferable except as permitted under Section 9©."

You see:

PERSONAL USE OF SERVICE

. That means I own a license. This license can be terminated in case I break the Agreement. Owning a license grants you the right to create an account. ANet can change the name / Character ID - if these are against the rules or even delete the account in some circumstances. In any case (and nowhere in the Agreement) ANet did not say they can share your characters between accounts. Or that they can share your gold / items with other players. Because these are

personal

. And now, one of the ANet employees says that if you join a group you agree to share your

personal

data with others.

So, I think is clear that the analogy with the real life is perfectly fine.

And again - if the NPC's DPS are not private data, why we cannot see them in our log? You only see your own DPS in the log. But you need a software to see my DPS. Software stated by ANet to be illegal - see again Section 8 in the GW2 User Agreement.

Game data such as Dps is not personal data the Devs have officially stated as such, look at the legal definition (the definition used by all legal documents ie ToS)of what personal data entails, you won't see Dps listed or what Boons/heals/dodges/skills used etc listed as personal data.

Now the Devs made the Official statements during an AMA for clarification, you know one of their ways of pushing out Official statements.

And here the official stance and response from Anet during The Head of the Snake Feedback event.

"ChrisCleary • 224dWe have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement.

DanDaze/r/GW2Exchange Mod• 224dSo, does that mean memory reading DPS readers are OK as long as they are only parsing combat data?

ChrisCleary• 224dYou are correct. Combat data is defined as any information that is created due to the usage of skills or impact on players due to skill usage (by the player/s or an outside source)."

TOS legal Combat/dps meets don't pull any personal account information from other players. They only pull visible combat data from the game.

So again nothing is breaking the TOS as per Anets Official stance.

[Sariel V.7024]

@Fermi.2409 said:Nice unsubstantiated generalizations m80

I am dead certain those generalizations have been well substantiated, since before raids AND meters.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Coconut.7082 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:DPS-meters spying on others are an affront. The data is used to harass other players and that disgusts me in a way i can't even express in nice wording.

DPS-meter data is used to filter out players that do not know how to read and join groups that aren't meant for them. That's not a problem caused by the meters.

Exactly!

Its a problem that is caused by people that couldn't care less who they insult and damage in order to get

what THEY want

. That is why it is

MY OPINION

that it should not be allowed in MMORPG's.

So those people should be able to force themselves on a group they "don't fit in", basically wasting a whole group's time to get

what THEY want

?

It goes both ways you know: players who join groups while lying about their experience or not answering the group's requirements are damaging the game! That's why I think casual play should not be allowed n MMORPG's.

People should be able to play by whatever means as long as it isn't through harassment. Using DPS-meters to spy on, and call out people is what i call harassment.

Lying your way into a group and wasting other people's time is what I call harassment, is that fine?

If you lied to get into a group, but can supply what they ask for, no harm is done.It's how I started as a raided, just lied about my KP and LI. After a while I had tangent LI and just linked that

[deltaconnected.4058]

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:I think you are wrong. Indeed the Arcdps is a third party program. But look at what ANet says in the GW2 User agreement - section 8:PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES:**- software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;

• software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;**Exactly what Arcdps does. So, one ANet employee says that an activity labeled as illegal and prohibited by GW2 User Agreement is in fact allowed and legally because he says so. This is the reason why I said the statement is hypocritical. ANet should change the Agreement in order to make the statement correct. Or ANet should ask the employees to read the GW2 User Agreement before any statement.

Did you know your antivirus scans memory, and your firewall intercepts/inspects network data flowing to and from the game?

[Cynn.1659]

@deltaconnected.4058 said:

@Spurnshadow.3678 said:I think you are wrong. Indeed the Arcdps is a third party program. But look at what ANet says in the GW2 User agreement - section 8:PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES:**- software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;

• software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;**Exactly what Arcdps does. So, one ANet employee says that an activity labeled as illegal and prohibited by GW2 User Agreement is in fact allowed and legally because he says so. This is the reason why I said the statement is hypocritical. ANet should change the Agreement in order to make the statement correct. Or ANet should ask the employees to read the GW2 User Agreement before any statement.

Did you know your antivirus scans memory, and your firewall intercepts/inspects network data flowing to and from the game?

While we are at it, might as well ban win 10, since it reads a lot of information off your pc.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I prefer a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that WILL occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot) and they do not have a bias (which they have), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

[Wolfheart.7483]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Wolfheart.7483 said:I am fine with DPS meters. I am quite skilled at playing all of my characters and can pull off meta rotations if needed but I

prefer

a slightly more laid back approach. I would never join a raid group looking for meta rotation/DPS if I wasn't feeling up to the task. Rather, I would look for another, more casual, group or start my own.

The issue with banning a DPS meter or anything similar will always be this: It is the player being toxic, not the meter. There will always be a percentage of the player base who want to be toxic and will find a way to do it.

I remember when people would have AP requirements in LFG to do dungeons. They were being elitist based off a number that didn't have any direct relation to skill. But it was one of the only things that could, at the very least, show a level of experience in the game as a whole that could not be faked. People were kicked or not allowed in groups because they didn't have enough AP. It was a pointless measure of how skilled a player was. Should a ban on achievement points have been considered at that time?

If you join a group who posted for specific requirements, then they have every right to kick you if you don't meet those requirements. There will always be he-said/she-said gray area (my DPS went lower because I had to res you, etc.) but that can happen in any circumstance, with or without DPS meters. The finger pointing and details of how/why someone is blamed will simply change form.

DPS meters just become an easy target to blame for the toxicity. The DPS meter is simply a tool.

For those that want DPS meters banned, what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Those toxic elitists welcoming you with open arms? Why would you want to be in their groups anyway?

TL;DRPeople are the toxic element, not the DPS meter. That will not change.

your actually incorrect here, the problem with such tools is that they are opinionated and used by players with bias (I as a tool focus on dps, I as a player want max dps)More importantly it is well understood scientifically that there are a number of behavioral issues that will occur unless the player happens to be a behavioral or data scientist and they can control the environment (we ofc cannot), for example the observer-expectancy effect and ofc confirmation bias.

You're actually incorrect. The existence of the tool does not produce the behavior. As exhibited by the AP example from years past, the behavior existed prior to the DPS meter.

Do you blame today's DPS meter for the same behavior that was shown a few years before they were allowed to use the DPS meter? No. Because the DPS meter does not create the behavior.

[Bladestrom.6425]

No you are misunderstanding the point (which perfectly demonstrates the issue at hand) , The tool is available, it can only produce unreliable data because of the points mentioned. this is human behavior and cant be avoided. The tool in itself does nothing, we are however talking about the tool when it is used.

[Fermi.2409]

What? The tool isn't opinionated. The tool tells you, on average, how much damage you have done per second of combat as well as information relating to boons. It's an objective number, there's no bias in the tool. There can be occurrences that explain the data that may not be seen in the meter, but the numbers are the numbers.

[Bladestrom.6425]

that's what i'm talking about ^^ you clearly don't understand what is meant by opinionated from a design perspective, and you are demonstrating that very bias eve here (and note 'bias' is not a negative term, its about your perspective) You also do not seem to understand what the reference to observation effects mean. This isn't a personal attack btw its just reality about human behavior.

[Wolfheart.7483]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:that's what im talking about ^^ you clearly don't understand what is meant by opinionated from a design perspective, and you are demonstrating that very bias eve here (and note 'bias' is not a negative term, its about your perspective)

Perhaps whatever actual point you are trying to make is not coming through properly. Not due to any bias we have but your inability to communicate clearly.

Basic idea:DPS meter provides objective data based on combat. Why should that be banned? It's, quite literally, a recap of what actually took place in combat.

[Bladestrom.6425]

lol well i'm not trying to communicate much apart from pointing out some well known behavioral issues. You also seem to think its about objective data, but that wasn't the point, is about observation, control and appropriate evaluation.

[Fermi.2409]

you clearly don't understand what is meant by opinionated from a design perspective

How, exactly, is a counter of damage dealt within a fight "opinionated from a design perspective"

[Wolfheart.7483]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:lol well i'm not trying to communicate much apart from pointing out some well known behavioral issues. You also seem to think its about objective data, but that wasn't the point, is about observation, control and appropriate evaluation.

Let's try again:Basic idea:DPS meter provides objective data based on combat. Why should that be banned? It's, quite literally, a recap of what actually took place in combat.