How Also to Fix Mesmers (Just my thoughts)

[DaShi.1368]

Mesmer is the main reason I've played this game. And is currently one of the main reason I quit long ago. I check back now and then to see if Mesmers are in a playable state only to see that it remains a dead class outside of open world pve, which all classes can do anyway.

 

Here are my thoughts on some simple fixes for Mesmer for PvP and WvW.

 

• 1. Make Mesmer clones easily distinguishable from the Mesmer. And makes tab targeting for them work the same way Necro minions (prioritize the Mesmer).
  • Many people complain that Mesmers are unfun because the clones are frustrating. As a long term Mesmer player, I agree with this. They make Mesmers annoying to fight and turn people against the class.
  • Clones are a form of passive defense that gets less useful as other players get better. Good Mesmers don't really rely on hiding among clones to protect them. Only in the days of release did people try to pretend to be clones and that was mostly for memes.
  • Generally, all this feature has done is frustrate people fighting against Mesmers, lead to Mesmer nerfs, and offer literal benefit to Mesmers themselves. I believe they have only hurt this class in the long run and need to go. At least as perfect clones. As a resource for the Mesmer, they are fine.
  • Also, should probably make the clones distinguishable from phantasms for more counterplay.
• 2. Remove stealth from all Mesmer abilities.
  • There's probably nothing more hated than stealth. Just look at what thieves have had to deal with. So I suggest freeing Mesmer from this entirely.
  • Instead, I believe that Mesmer should focus on mobility and target dropping (which is why I suggested changing tab targeting for clones). Dropping target is powerful, but not as powerful or annoying as stealth. Plus, it gives Mesmer a unique mechanic for surviving, without being overpowered.
  • Changes to stealth skills (not getting into details on most of the numbers here):
    • The Prestige: Blinds nearby foes. Drops target. Teleports Mesmer behind 120 behind targeted foe. Burns nearby foes (240). Removes 1 condition. Blast finish.
    • Decoy: Mesmer shadowsteps (450). Drops target. Creates clone at original location. Breaks stun.
    • Veil: Create a wall that drops target for you and your allies.
    • Signet of Midnight (Active): Blinds nearby foes. Drops target. Breaks stun. Unblockable.
    • Mass Invisibility: You and all your allies drop target. Creates a clone for every ally (including self) affected.
    • Prismatic Understanding: Gain a random boon when you drop target.
    • Escape Artist: Create a clone when you drop target.
    • Deception: No change. Downed states are their own thing. Not really dealing with them here.
• 3. Remove Mirage Cloak from Mirage dodge.
  • I love Mirage Cloak, but it is way too powerful. It's a free distortion every time you dodge. If Mirage wants its second dodge back, Mirage Cloak has to go. I want the second dodge back, because one dodge feels terrible and hurts an already squishy class.
  • Ways Mirage can still gain Mirage Cloak:
    • From Mirage Mirrors.
    • Illusionary Ambush: Leave behind a Mirage Mirror instead of gaining Mirage Cloak
    • Axes of Symmetry: Add: Leave behind a Mirage Mirror (Mirages would need a more consistent way to generate mirrors and this skill has a decent cooldown for it. Jaunt is a possible alternative for this since it is so heavily nerfed in PvP).
  • This also has the effect of balancing Infinite Horizon. But some other traits will need to be adjusted. One suggestion:
    • Speed of Sand: Dodging increases your movement speed. (Makes it easier to get to Mirage Mirrors)
• 4. Keep the effects of the Core shatter skills for each elite spec. Elite specs can add to them, but can't lose the Core effect.
  • Mesmer clones as a resource are so tied to this that removing them in away severely hurts the class. I'm talking to you, Chronomancer and Virtuoso.
  • What about trade-offs?
    • First, I hate the whole trade-off discussion when it comes to elite specs. I think this has done more harm to elite specs than improved core specs.
    • Second, why not give core specs something elite specs can't have? My suggestion is that core specs can use all the weapons of their elite specs, but elite specs still can't use weapons of other elite specs in the class.
      • So a Core Mesmer can use a axe/shield or dagger/shield, if it wants. I think this should be the case for all the classes. It breathes some life back into the Core classes, and gives some trade-off for the elites (as they focus into their specific weapons).

 

I feel with these changes, Anet can safely roll back some of the nerfs to class. In addition, it solves the clone problem by treating them solely as a resource going forward and not having to worry about how much they frustrate players. Same with stealth. Dropping target may not be as powerful, but it's more fun to play against and gives Mesmers a unique mechanic to play around with. So are my thoughts. Take them or leave them. Agree or disagree. I only hope that they can in some way help Mesmers get back to being a fun class to play again.

Edited April 28, 2022 by DaShi.1368

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Forgot the tldr, here I made it for you: let's get rid of every defense mesmer has and give nothing in return. 

While it is true its easy to identify the real mesmer it still takes a tiny bit of time reselecting the mesmer which you also want to take care of by allowing tab to do the job for you. 

This nonsense does two things, one it caters for the low skill players and makes the whole drop target you later want to replace stealth with absolute uselessness. Like player drops target and half a second later he is reselected with a tab touch. 

Stealth is toxic garbage in this game, it has no place in it and I've been saying that since 2012, and this is specially true for thieves since they're the only ones that have stealth on demand with only 3 sec CD. Stealth is also broken because not only does it not have any trade offs but it also provides benefits like move faster take less damage, cure condis and so on, it's absolutely astonishing how gw2 team tried to be the smart guy and subvert the whole stealth bad aspects the whole industry set to balance stealth (move slower, get revealed on damage, a shadowy figure instead of total invisibility and so on).

With all that said, your solution makes no sense because like I said before target drop is not useful with the whole tab priorities. Also you turned two offensive/defensive skills into full offensive skills nerfing mesmer defenses even further. 

Also we already had sort of a no stealth gameplay with mirage, the whole evasive type of gameplay, and it got gutted because of the qq. 

Regarding mirage cloak it is fine, it only needs vindicator treatment. 

Choose IH it takes 100% endurance, choose one of the other two gm it takes 50%, revert one dodge and revert every vigor nerf. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735
Typos

[Hotride.2187]

Ugh I dont play mesmer and even I wonder how it will fight after the proposed changes. Its already pigeon-holed into condi bunkering. Its marginal use stealth, target dropping and hiding in clones are new player issues. For distortion, nerfing it will just delete even those few power mesmer builds I've seen in the last year.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Dadnir.5038]

Is this serious? Anyway, I'm 100% against every single thing this post suggest.

[Urphen.2857]

Not sure if serious or trolling but

 

1. Clones aren't a problem they die in an instant in wvw and you can see the real mesmer if you look on the boons

2. Stealth is it's own story but why mesmer should get nerfed and other Classes should be allowed to have it? We aren't the most op class in pvp/wvw with stealth

3. Your solution for Mirage cloak is mirrors so you have to walk every time to them or have to look where they are only for using ambush? Why not suggest to delete it completely and don't give something in return? Imagine you can't even escape with the Sword ambush anymore since you have to create first mirror and collecting it

4. You are realising that Mesmer is the only class that nothing changes with the elite spec? Only the chrono f4 is a total different thing and virtu f4 is a block instead of distortion also still a defensive shatter even if it is worse. Beside this nothing changes all our shatters are doing the same thing F1 dps F2 Condi F3 cc and beside of chrono F4 defense.

It's one of the reasons why mesmer and its Specs starts to get boring for me, because there isn't something new like on guard or necro, only animation changed on Virtu that's all

Edited April 28, 2022 by Urphen.2857

[phokus.8934]

Yikes, some people don't know what the term "fix" means in the context of Mesmer.

He should rename it to How to Nerf Mesmer.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

9 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Yikes, some people don't know what the term "fix" means in the context of Mesmer.

He should rename it to How to Nerf Mesmer.

On the contrary. It is a "fix" in ANet's style regarding mesmers. 

[The Boz.2038]

15 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Yikes, some people don't know what the term "fix" means in the context of Mesmer.

He should rename it to How to Nerf Mesmer.

Oh, no, this would definitely fix the mesmer.
Just like you'd fix a dog.

[Lethion.8745]

I was expecting to see a "give X in return" part at the end. If you truly think this is a fix to Mesmer, 1) you must either be thinking Mesmer is overpowered or 2) you don't fully understand what suggesting a fix means.

 

1) If it's the first case, that's completely wrong. The changes you've mentioned are about PvP and Mesmer is only strong below Gold rank. That shouldn't be the basis for balance since those ranks consists of players who plays PvP only for rewards or just for the sake of it. Anyone who actually takes PvP seriously (no matter how bad they are) will be placed in Gold and balancing needs to be done taking those players into consideration. 

 

2) If it's second case, none of your ideas are terrible on their own. But you should bring an argument on what can be done to replace those abilities. It easy to completely remove something that is deemed to problematic from a class. The real hard part is to figure out what could take it it's place. That's exactly why everyone was furious when Anet completely disabled a trait from a Mesmer and didn't put anything else in it's place. We have played with 1 less trait for months. On their side, Anet did that because they couldn't find what to put in it's place. As I said, that's the actual difficult part and if you want bring up a fix for class, you should think of what can be done to keep it still playable as well. Now, you did suggest some compensating changes on your own terms but all of them are just nerfed version of the original mechanic. Instead of taking the power from somewhere and putting it somewhere else while maintaining the total power budget, you are straight up reducing the total power budget. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Lethion.8745

[DaShi.1368]

I'm sorry if didn't make that part clear. The return for Mesmer would be the rollback of past nerfs as well as new buffs.

 

I feel like the above mentioned mechanics are a crutch that holds the Mesmer back. They prevent it from getting needed buffs and target it for complaints and nerfs. I agree that these mechanics are very strong at low level play. With these mechanics fixed, Mesmer hits a floor that can be built on to make it more competitive in high level pvp. This could allow for bringing back the bold Chrono. Mirage could definitely use more with Mirage Mirrors nerfed. Virtuoso should get distortion back. Core should gets buffs all around that help the elite specs as well. 

 

 

[SaferMurderweapon.7143]

"How also to fix Mesmers"

Provides more nerfs...

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Certified GW2 forum moment

[Levetty.1279]

On 4/28/2022 at 2:52 AM, DaShi.1368 said:

It's a free distortion every time you dodge.

Just like every dodge.

[Salt Mode.3780]

10 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Just like every dodge.

no because at least with a dodge you have distance and if you know how to jump dodge you further extend the range of your dodge~

[mortrialus.3062]

On 4/27/2022 at 8:52 PM, DaShi.1368 said:

Mesmer is the main reason I've played this game. And is currently one of the main reason I quit long ago. I check back now and then to see if Mesmers are in a playable state only to see that it remains a dead class outside of open world pve, which all classes can do anyway.

 

Here are my thoughts on some simple fixes for Mesmer for PvP and WvW.

 

• 1. Make Mesmer clones easily distinguishable from the Mesmer. And makes tab targeting for them work the same way Necro minions (prioritize the Mesmer).
  • Many people complain that Mesmers are unfun because the clones are frustrating. As a long term Mesmer player, I agree with this. They make Mesmers annoying to fight and turn people against the class.
  • Clones are a form of passive defense that gets less useful as other players get better. Good Mesmers don't really rely on hiding among clones to protect them. Only in the days of release did people try to pretend to be clones and that was mostly for memes.
  • Generally, all this feature has done is frustrate people fighting against Mesmers, lead to Mesmer nerfs, and offer literal benefit to Mesmers themselves. I believe they have only hurt this class in the long run and need to go. At least as perfect clones. As a resource for the Mesmer, they are fine.
  • Also, should probably make the clones distinguishable from phantasms for more counterplay.

I actually hard disagree.  One of the long standing competitive problems with mesmer is clones but more specifically clone DAMAGE.

I think clone condi damage should 100% go away, as mesmers making clones then kiting while their clones whittle away the enemy with autos is extremely degenerate.  I am not blind to how mesmer is balanced around it, as many other professions mains are.  Mesmer staff and scepter are balanced around having their clones up and contributing to auto attack damage 100% of the time. 50% of their auto attack damage output on both those weapons come from clone autos. And instead all of this damage contributions from clones should be rolled into the mesmer itself and the clones should be invulnerable but indestructible.  Which frankly benefits everyone, the mesmer gets complete control over their damage output while other classes don't deal with clone autos. 

If you get confused, by clones in terms of targeting, that's just the name of the game?  Like if a warrior Whirlwind Blades and lands behind your character, you can't easily tab target them either.  Doesn't mean the game should auto target the warrior.  Just like with Thieves guild and Necro minions. Mesmer is built on sabotage and disruption and that should never ever change.

On 4/27/2022 at 8:52 PM, DaShi.1368 said:

• 2. Remove stealth from all Mesmer abilities.
  • There's probably nothing more hated than stealth. Just look at what thieves have had to deal with. So I suggest freeing Mesmer from this entirely.
  • Instead, I believe that Mesmer should focus on mobility and target dropping (which is why I suggested changing tab targeting for clones). Dropping target is powerful, but not as powerful or annoying as stealth. Plus, it gives Mesmer a unique mechanic for surviving, without being overpowered.
  • Changes to stealth skills (not getting into details on most of the numbers here):
    • The Prestige: Blinds nearby foes. Drops target. Teleports Mesmer behind 120 behind targeted foe. Burns nearby foes (240). Removes 1 condition. Blast finish.
    • Decoy: Mesmer shadowsteps (450). Drops target. Creates clone at original location. Breaks stun.
    • Veil: Create a wall that drops target for you and your allies.
    • Signet of Midnight (Active): Blinds nearby foes. Drops target. Breaks stun. Unblockable.
    • Mass Invisibility: You and all your allies drop target. Creates a clone for every ally (including self) affected.
    • Prismatic Understanding: Gain a random boon when you drop target.
    • Escape Artist: Create a clone when you drop target.
    • Deception: No change. Downed states are their own thing. Not really dealing with them here.

Full on troll mode.  Mesmers do not have the means to survive without stealth.  They don't even have thief mobility to survive with literally zero stealth. 

"Look at what thieves have had to deal with."

What being literally straight up unambiguously MANDATORY for all levels of play especially high end levels of play since the inception of the game while also straight up unambiguously hard countering their one rivals, memsers. Until mesmer portal got nerfed at which point they had no rivals.  Like yeah, that sounds nice compared to Mesmer right now, yeah. 

If stealth attacks when predicted and evaded/blocked/invuled/ revealed the target, that's a change I'm okay with.  As a mesmer I've been pretty annoyed every time I perfectly predicted a burst from a stealthed target and only succeeded in buying time until they just set up the burst again with more stealth.

But comparatively, people have a deranged bugbear about GW2's stealth, which is immensely more fair than other games.

On 4/27/2022 at 8:52 PM, DaShi.1368 said:

• 3. Remove Mirage Cloak from Mirage dodge.
  • I love Mirage Cloak, but it is way too powerful. It's a free distortion every time you dodge. If Mirage wants its second dodge back, Mirage Cloak has to go. I want the second dodge back, because one dodge feels terrible and hurts an already squishy class.
  • Ways Mirage can still gain Mirage Cloak:
    • From Mirage Mirrors.
    • Illusionary Ambush: Leave behind a Mirage Mirror instead of gaining Mirage Cloak
    • Axes of Symmetry: Add: Leave behind a Mirage Mirror (Mirages would need a more consistent way to generate mirrors and this skill has a decent cooldown for it. Jaunt is a possible alternative for this since it is so heavily nerfed in PvP).
  • This also has the effect of balancing Infinite Horizon. But some other traits will need to be adjusted. One suggestion:
    • Speed of Sand: Dodging increases your movement speed. (Makes it easier to get to Mirage Mirrors)

Lets remove reaper shroud from reaper as well.  Or tomes from Firebrand. 

Like if you removed Mirage being able to dodge while stunned (Which I have already an exact example of how the devs could do so with EXACT code that doesn't impact the rest of mirage) than really, all mirage truly does is give it the level of evasiveness while attacking as core thief. 

Spamming pistol whip?  Spamming Death Blossom?  Spamming Flanking Strike?  Free evade when using evade for their healing skill?  Even at its absolute most broken, Mirage did not come remotely close to the level of evade frame uptime as thief, as weaver, or even Spellbreaker.  All of them pushed to their limit, Miraged significantly lagged behind them in evade/block/invulnerability uptime per minute by 10+ seconds the entire duration of PoF.  

This sort of "Evade while doing action" has ALWAYS existed in GW2.   Guardians block while healing.  Warriors and revenants heal while taking damage.  There's tons of "unfair" mechanics.  But ultimately, mesmer is extremely tame on this front.  But because people get such a bug bear about mesmers, that's when stuff like this becomes a problem. 

If you want to "fix" mesmer, then ultimately you need to fix the significant nerfs to core weapons, traits, and utilities and ESPECIALLY our elite skills. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by mortrialus.3062