-Might- The one change to achieve a better balance!

[Sahne.6950]

Changing the boon "might" = the solution to the omnipresence of Celestial in Roaming,  fixing Warrior on the side and tuning down Conditions slightly... ALL AT ONCE! 

Celestialbuilds in itself dont hit hard. Celestial becomes a problem when your enemy can maintain 25 stacks of might. The Celebuilds get 750 power and 750 Condidamage ontop and suddenly hit as hard as powerbuilds and Condibuilds combined, because they have the same Ferocity as Marauder and the same Condiduration and roughly the same Conditiondamage as Trailblazer. How can we tune down the performance of Celestial with 25 might, without touching the performance of other builds that run Berserker for example? How can we balance the metashift to condi/cele in Smallscale... WITHOUT touching Largescale....?

 

Might has to be changed from a flat 30 stats to a +1% bonus.

Right now 1 stack of might = 30power+30condi                   ->        suggestion:   1 stack of might = 1% increase in power and Conditiondamage.

 

What would that lead too?

The value of one stack might on a fullpowerbuild would be roughly the same. for example if you are having 2800 power a stack of might would equal 28 power. If you have 3100 Power a stack would give 31 power (which is even more than before).

my Celestialrenegade is sitting at around ~1700 power and ~1000Conditiondamage(with runes and traits). 1 Stack of might would equal 17 Powerdamage and 10 Conditiondamage. This would significantly tune down Celestial. Previously a Celebuild would have 2450 power and 1750 Conditiondamage with 25 stacks. With the "new might" it would be 2125 Power and 1250 Condidamage.

I think this is all it needs to bring Celestial in check with the other stat combinations. Heck Cele would still be strong, because 90% of the time you win by outsustaining the enemy cleanses. And if the enemy is running out of cleanses it doesnt matter if the burn is ticking for 900 or 750 damage... you are going to die to it in both scenarios. And the overall Powerdamage would only see a small decrease.

---Beautiful sideeffects---

It would slightly nerf Conditiondamage as a whole. You have 1000 Basepower, but you have 0 Baseconditiondamage. Your everyday powerbuild has between 2600 and 3100 Power, whereas Full condibuilds are between 1800 and 2200 Conditiondamage.      ->  aka. Might would be slightly more valuable for Powerbuilds.

Warriors. Previously Warriors would get more Value from Might. I want to keep that. Warrior get a 2% Statboost for every might. This would slightly raise their numbers during the Burst. It doesnt fix the w0nky mechanics but it could be a first step to make Warrior relevant again.

 

Current state of roaming? If you are not running celestial... are you even roaming? It is sad but true.

I run Celestial on basicly anything right now.... and it is 100% to strong. Something has to be done. Overall my idea would tune down Celestial and Condis as a whole, as they are 100% meta in WvW roaming atm, without touching the performance of "Meta" Zerg builds, heck for Builds with more than 3000 Power it would even be a buff. I think its a briliant solution! (make it WvW/PvP only tho as the PvE Community would screech xD)

Edited May 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Hotride.2187]

Though regen, prot, and stab uptime increase of 40% is also an issue. Even with nerfed dmg I bet players will run it to just be unkillable, and will still be able to win on the long run with condis stacking up and killing you.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Make it 5% instead of 2% on Pinnacle of Strength and then we'll talk.

[Sahne.6950]

41 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Though regen, prot, and stab uptime increase of 40% is also an issue. Even with nerfed dmg I bet players will run it to just be unkillable, and will still be able to win on the long run with condis stacking up and killing you.

Yeah thats the overall goal of it... Celestial should still be viable and considered strong. I dont want to nerf it out of existance, as it enables alot of builds to see play at the moment, which is nice.

It just needs a small tweak, because you actually are a marauder / Trailblazer build combined when you are sitting at 25 might. Even with 25 might a celestialbuild should not reach the same Powerdamage as full marauder, while having the same stats as trailblazer, and the same Boonduration as minstrels....   At best Celestial needs to be brought to a point, where it is good to create "baseline" stats for your charackter and you mix it with other stats to push your build in a certain direction. But it shouldnt be your "jack-of-all-trades" and actually outperform marauder/Trailblazer all together in one set, while having a wagonload of toughness, Vita and healingpower.

#Dont kill Celestial.... Balance it!

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Hotride.2187]

35 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Yeah thats the overall goal of it... Celestial should still be viable and considered strong. I dont want to nerf it out of existance, as it enables alot of builds to see play at the moment, which is nice.

The builds it enables kill power builds that no longer have the dmg to punch through cele sustain. But its whatever to me, any balancing will be welcome given the current sad state.

[Sahne.6950]

3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

The builds it enables kill power builds that no longer have the dmg to punch through cele sustain. But its whatever to me, any balancing will be welcome given the current sad state.

Alot of people that used to play power are being pushed to Cele. Which leads to even more people running cele...

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Svarty.8019]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Something has to be done,

Nothing will be done.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Svarty.8019
NOTHING WILL BE DONE

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

remove the 25 stack limit on might and vulnerability

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Warriors. Previously Warriors would get more Value from Might.

That's true for more than one profession.

 

 

[Sahne.6950]

5 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

remove the 25 stack limit on might and vulnerability

What would that achieve? Wouldnt this further encourage to simply stack defensive stats? aka. more bunkers?

[Svarty.8019]

15 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

What would that achieve? Wouldnt this further encourage to simply stack defensive stats? aka. more bunkers?

Yep, might as well have one-shot-kills ><

 

Then everybody can have that Thief experience.

[Dawdler.8521]

Uhm... wouldnt it just be simpler to give say +10 instead?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

What would that achieve? Wouldnt this further encourage to simply stack defensive stats? aka. more bunkers?

Why have 25? Why is everyone happy with that number? Why not 24, or 23? 23 would be cool since its prime. But why limit it to a whole number at all? Why not make it a continuous spectrum instead of discrete values? So many questions without answers.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

28 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Why have 25? Why is everyone happy with that number? Why not 24, or 23? 23 would be cool since its prime. But why limit it to a whole number at all? Why not make it a continuous spectrum instead of discrete values? So many questions without answers.

Well, let me play the devil's advocate here just a wee bit.
 

The stacks on damaging conditions got removed, but vulnerability and might still have the 25 stack cap. Seems unfair to me. Why not have 100 stacks of each? Or maybe instead the 25 stack cap on damaging condis should be put back into competitive.

[Sahne.6950]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Uhm... wouldnt it just be simpler to give say +10 instead?

No, because that would just nerf might.

The % might change would make might less valuable for builds that have lower base values(aka.bunkers), but it would barely affect the damageoutput of highdamage builds.

in other words, it would nerf condibuilds and the Celestialstatcombination , but leaves fullpowerbuilds and most notably all the Zergmeta builds untouched.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Dawdler.8521]

12 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

No, because that would just nerf might.

The % might change would make might less valuable for builds that have lower base values(aka.bunkers), but it would barely affect the damageoutput of highdamage builds.

in other words, it would nerf condibuilds and the Celestialstatcombination , but leaves fullpowerbuilds and most notably all the Zergmeta builds untouched.

Yeah it would be horrible if the zerg meta was touched.

[Sahne.6950]

17 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yeah it would be horrible if the zerg meta was touched.

The Zergmeta is a big topic for itself.. and it 100% needs some love aswell.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Well, let me play the devil's advocate here just a wee bit.
 

The stacks on damaging conditions got removed, but vulnerability and might still have the 25 stack cap. Seems unfair to me. Why not have 100 stacks of each? Or maybe instead the 25 stack cap on damaging condis should be put back into competitive.

The cap on damaging condis got removed because it would prevent players from dealing any dmg. The cap on might and vuln does not cause similar issues and is needed to keep those already very powerful effects in check.

Btw i don't think i ever had 25+ stacks of any condi on me, because it would require so much facetanking that you should be dead before those numbers are reached. It is mainly relevant vs npc, not in direct player vs player combat.

Btw, my cele slb has very litte might and still kills almost everything just fine, so i disagree that nerfing might is the way to balance cele. The only way to balance cele is to change the stats directly, ideally by reverting the completely unneccessary buffs, since it was fine before those. No weird experiments needed.

Edited May 2, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

The cap on damaging condis got removed because it would prevent players from dealing any dmg. The cap on might and vuln does not cause similar issues and is needed to keep those already very powerful effects in check.

I know.

3 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Btw i don't think i ever had 25+ stacks of any condi on me, because it would require so much facetanking that you should be dead before those numbers are reached. It is mainly relevant vs npc, not in direct player vs player combat.

Btw, my cele slb has very litte might and still kills almost everything just fine, so i disagree that nerfing might is the way to balance cele. The only way to balance cele is to change the stats directly, ideally by reverting the completely unneccessary buffs, since it was fine before those. No weird experiments needed.

Having Endure Pain up gives plenty of time for a zerg to overload you with condi stacks 😉

But yeah, there is no need to change might, and I disagree that Cele is OP. 

 

[Bale.3851]

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Though regen, prot, and stab uptime increase of 40% is also an issue. Even with nerfed dmg I bet players will run it to just be unkillable, and will still be able to win on the long run with condis stacking up and killing you.

Isnt that true for other gear? I mean if you want to be a bunker in gw2 its super easy but how i see it if you run a bunker build you should deal low dmg. So personally i really like the idea of making might a percent based buff cause it wont nerf more risky stat combinations like berserk or mara while nerfing cele / trailblazer or am i missing something?

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Isnt that true for other gear? I mean if you want to be a bunker in gw2 its super easy but how i see it if you run a bunker build you should deal low dmg. So personally i really like the idea of making might a percent based buff cause it wont nerf more risky stat combinations like berserk or mara while nerfing cele / trailblazer or am i missing something?

Trailblazer builds kill you by outsustaining you and vomiting condis on you until you run out of cleanses. They don't need to stack might, they don't use concentration to get longer boons.

Cele just does the sustain part better, via concentration, vitality and healing power. Sure you can nerf the condi damage of cele (power damage is spiky for some builds but its always the condi that kills you) but the dmg will still be more than enough to kill you once the condis start stacking (i.e. you ran out of cleanses).

With less damage it will be less obnoxious to deal with but it will still be IMO too strong. The sustain should be hit too, not just the dmg.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Bale.3851]

30 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Cele just does the sustain part better, via concentration, vitality and healing power. Sure you can nerf the condi damage of cele (power damage is spiky for some builds but its always the condi that kills you) but the dmg will still be more than enough to kill you once the condis start stacking (i.e. you ran out of cleanses).

With less damage it will be less obnoxious to deal with but it will still be IMO too strong. The sustain should be hit too, not just the dmg.

Yeah ok but isnt that another story? I mean this thread is about changes in the might buff mechanic and it also nerfes cele builds in some way. So its part of what you want?

[Hotride.2187]

29 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

Yeah ok but isnt that another story? I mean this thread is about changes in the might buff mechanic and it also nerfes cele builds in some way. So its part of what you want?

Well the post says it will fix cele (and war, lol), I have doubts.

[Swagger.1459]

9 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Changing the boon "might" = the solution to the omnipresence of Celestial in Roaming,  fixing Warrior on the side and tuning down Conditions slightly... ALL AT ONCE! 

Celestialbuilds in itself dont hit hard. Celestial becomes a problem when your enemy can maintain 25 stacks of might. The Celebuilds get 750 power and 750 Condidamage ontop and suddenly hit as hard as powerbuilds and Condibuilds combined, because they have the same Ferocity as Marauder and the same Condiduration and roughly the same Conditiondamage as Trailblazer. How can we tune down the performance of Celestial with 25 might, without touching the performance of other builds that run Berserker for example? How can we balance the metashift to condi/cele in Smallscale... WITHOUT touching Largescale....?

 

Might has to be changed from a flat 30 stats to a +1% bonus.

Right now 1 stack of might = 30power+30condi                   ->        suggestion:   1 stack of might = 1% increase in power and Conditiondamage.

 

What would that lead too?

The value of one stack might on a fullpowerbuild would be roughly the same. for example if you are having 2800 power a stack of might would equal 28 power. If you have 3100 Power a stack would give 31 power (which is even more than before).

my Celestialrenegade is sitting at around ~1700 power and ~1000Conditiondamage(with runes and traits). 1 Stack of might would equal 17 Powerdamage and 10 Conditiondamage. This would significantly tune down Celestial. Previously a Celebuild would have 2450 power and 1750 Conditiondamage with 25 stacks. With the "new might" it would be 2125 Power and 1250 Condidamage.

I think this is all it needs to bring Celestial in check with the other stat combinations. Heck Cele would still be strong, because 90% of the time you win by outsustaining the enemy cleanses. And if the enemy is running out of cleanses it doesnt matter if the burn is ticking for 900 or 750 damage... you are going to die to it in both scenarios. And the overall Powerdamage would only see a small decrease.

---Beautiful sideeffects---

It would slightly nerf Conditiondamage as a whole. You have 1000 Basepower, but you have 0 Baseconditiondamage. Your everyday powerbuild has between 2600 and 3100 Power, whereas Full condibuilds are between 1800 and 2200 Conditiondamage.      ->  aka. Might would be slightly more valuable for Powerbuilds.

Warriors. Previously Warriors would get more Value from Might. I want to keep that. Warrior get a 2% Statboost for every might. This would slightly raise their numbers during the Burst. It doesnt fix the w0nky mechanics but it could be a first step to make Warrior relevant again.

 

Current state of roaming? If you are not running celestial... are you even roaming? It is sad but true.

I run Celestial on basicly anything right now.... and it is 100% to strong. Something has to be done. Overall my idea would tune down Celestial and Condis as a whole, as they are 100% meta in WvW roaming atm, without touching the performance of "Meta" Zerg builds, heck for Builds with more than 3000 Power it would even be a buff. I think its a briliant solution! (make it WvW/PvP only tho as the PvE Community would screech xD)

Nobody cares about your duels or solo roaming stuff in wvw. This game is balanced for teams, no solo players. 
 

And yet again, new cele stats add like 2 seconds to important boons, and concentration can be placed on any build through other gear sources. Cele is inefficient on most specs anyway. 
 

And cele was mostly junk prior to the change anyway, and if players can’t handle the change, then that is a personal issue. 

 

And, another again, this is wvw. Stick to pvp if you want small scale balance. WvW isn’t your personal duel or solo zone that the devs need to cater to.
 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Swagger.1459

[Hotride.2187]

39 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

 This game is balanced for teams, no solo players.

50 player blob consists of 2/3 necros and guards -> this game is balanced for teams. Just leave.