Hs Low Intensity Build Competition - No more excuses for low DPS, please!

[Despot.3048]

Everyone except him

[Cyninja.2954]

6 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Already tried Lord Hizens build it was lackluster..

Maybe spend 2 minutes and watch his explanation on how the build works given you obviously skipped it.

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Sorry i disagree Guardian is trash these days, try running scepter and torch and see how well you do 40k dps.. Actually try running anything outside of Firebrand axe or greatsword.

Strait up learn to play issue on your part. Sorry to say, but Willbender and guardian overall remains one of the easiest and strongest picks in the game for PvE and is still mandatory in WvW. Doesn't matter if for solo or support/dps in groups. On top of which every elite specialization for guardian and even core guardian has viable builds. That is mirrored by nearly no class.

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Sword wasn't very successful.

This statement alone is already so telling....

Edited May 26, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Dante.1508]

On 5/26/2022 at 5:29 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

Maybe spend 2 minutes and watch his explanation on how the build works given you obviously skipped it.

Strait up learn to play issue on your part. Sorry to say, but Willbender and guardian overall remains one of the easiest and strongest picks in the game for PvE and is still mandatory in WvW. Doesn't matter if for solo or support/dps in groups. On top of which every elite specialization for guardian and even core guardian has viable builds. That is mirrored by nearly no class.

This statement alone is already so telling....

I did three maps worth of content in EoD, and died to multiple HP bosses where other classes had no issues killing them in seconds, maybe its the terrible healing Guardian has but its damage felt low as well, compared to Engi, Ranger, Necro, Mesmer and Thief Specter of which i passed all of EoD with with no real issues..

On 5/26/2022 at 10:59 AM, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

so what is not trash?

Mesmer, Necro, Engi, Ranger, Specter Thief.

 

Warrior, Revenant, Ele and Guardian are all bad in my opinion.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I did three maps worth of content in EoD, and died to multiple HP bosses where other classes had no issues killing them in seconds, maybe its the terrible healing Guardian has but its damage felt low as well, compared to Engi, Ranger, Necro, Mesmer and Thief Specter of which i passed all of EoD with with no real issues..

Mesmer, Necro, Engi, Ranger, Specter Thief.

 

Warrior, Revenant, Ele and Guardian are all trash in my opinion.

 

I've completed all 4 EoD maps on by now 24 characters. Finished the campaign on 9 using the new elite specialisations on each. Cleared multiple Dragons End maps on multiple characters.

I never had any issue with any of my guardians. Stacking 20-30 burning with ease near immediatly, using lithany heal and bow spirit weapon (almost never F2 even, which when properly used increases sustain even more) while using celestial made the willbender face-role any and all content. Even ran the raid willbender build with trailblazer instead of viper on my initial playthrough.

The only thing lacking out of the box was cc, which I would have to slot in on utility slots (and where guardian has again sonenof the strongest picks).

There was 2 classes which were even easier: crit bleed build virtuoso thanks to the passive healing on bleeds, harbinger because well necro on steroids. Mechanist was about the same, but pretty much afk gameplay but more easily pressured.

If you are dying on willbender or feel the heal is lacking, you need to cycle your tools better and make sure to make use of the buff your receive when using virtues. Firebrand is nearly the same as before for most open world content where the perma protection makes up for the lack of aegis heal. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

4 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Warrior, Revenant, Ele and Guardian are all trash in my opinion.

Something must be not clicking with you as Guardian. DH, FB and Willbender all can clear any HP including Hot, Pof and Eod easily enough. I'd definitely practice more because it is one the strongest class atm.

[Nephalem.8921]

7 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I did three maps worth of content in EoD, and died to multiple HP bosses where other classes had no issues killing them in seconds, maybe its the terrible healing Guardian has but its damage felt low as well, compared to Engi, Ranger, Necro, Mesmer and Thief Specter of which i passed all of EoD with with no real issues..

Have you tried pressing buttons?

Litany of wrath is the strongest heal in the game. "Terrible healing guardian has" he said...Have you read your skills? I guess you didnt so you arent using f1 so your attacks dont cause burning and you do no damage as a result.

Willbender is one of the most busted aoe specs aswell.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Why is this topic on this forum? No one would be allowed to play these builds Iconsistently (that is, without ever getting kicked/questioned) in instanced content unless they are in a static where they are being carried. All of that is pretty kitten fine for open world though, but only normal Strike pugs won't care that you're not bringing best-in-slot stuff.

[Nash.2681]

2 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Why is this topic on this forum? No one would be allowed to play these builds Iconsistently (that is, without ever getting kicked/questioned) in instanced content unless they are in a static where they are being carried. All of that is pretty kitten fine for open world though, but only normal Strike pugs won't care that you're not bringing best-in-slot stuff.

Ever PUG raided? I really wish more people that claim to be "dps" would just play low LI builds and suddenly pull twice or even trice the numbers they do with a copy&pasted meta build they obviously never practiced...

[maxwelgm.4315]

9 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Ever PUG raided? I really wish more people that claim to be "dps" would just play low LI builds and suddenly pull twice or even trice the numbers they do with a copy&pasted meta build they obviously never practiced...

I too wish people would play LI builds, I really do. But I repeat - pugs with KP requirements or the especially picky ones that ask you to ping the runes on your panties are not always going to let you go by even to demonstrate you can pull off 20k+ DPS in a real scenario. You can obviously get into several encounters with non-standard builds - but consistently, never being questioned about it - that won't happen, and unfortunately so.

 

Which brings back to the main point - a topic about LI builds should really be  a general discussion for people who play open world and not locked in the instanced content forum where most people don't really mind the meta builds since they already play this content regularly.

[Zok.4956]

On 5/21/2022 at 1:47 PM, Raizel.8175 said:

No idea why this hasn't made its way into the forum yet.

Maybe because a forum is more about discussion than passively watching YouTube videos?

 

On 5/21/2022 at 1:47 PM, Raizel.8175 said:

We had a lot of complaints lately about how difficult it is to achieve high DPS numbers during DE and other content. This video will prove otherwise. I do hope that people will be open-minded and appreciate this content

While I'm not expecting the same quality as the builds/guides on https://snowcrows.com/ or https://gw2mists.com/builds , but maybe are there at least links to your suggested builds on https://metabattle.com/ or http://en.gw2skills.net/ ? 

For some people, the written word is still more efficient (and more fun) than watching a YouTube video of a streamer speaking.

Thanks.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Zok.4956

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Why is this topic on this forum? No one would be allowed to play these builds Iconsistently (that is, without ever getting kicked/questioned) in instanced content unless they are in a static where they are being carried. All of that is pretty kitten fine for open world though, but only normal Strike pugs won't care that you're not bringing best-in-slot stuff.

I haven't encountered anyone complaining about LI builds even in 400LI groups. You deal damage as DPS noone will complain.

[ASP.8093]

4 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Why is this topic on this forum? No one would be allowed to play these builds Iconsistently (that is, without ever getting kicked/questioned) in instanced content unless they are in a static where they are being carried. All of that is pretty kitten fine for open world though, but only normal Strike pugs won't care that you're not bringing best-in-slot stuff.

"Best-in-slot" is pretty dependent on execution. There's a reason Snow Crows has both the Jade Dynamo and J-Drive versions of Condi Mechanist on their website.

[Raizel.8175]

4 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

Why is this topic on this forum?

I originally posted this under General Discussions. It was later moved here though. Would have prefered it if it had stayed in General Discussions since these builds are also good for open world gameplay.

4 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

No one would be allowed to play these builds Iconsistently (that is, without ever getting kicked/questioned) in instanced content unless they are in a static where they are being carried. All of that is pretty kitten fine for open world though, but only normal Strike pugs won't care that you're not bringing best-in-slot stuff.

As long as you do decent damage and are able to pull your weight, nobody will really care what build you're using. At least I've never had problems trying out LI builds in PUGs on EU. Funny thing is that these builds are more likely to reach their potential due to being easier to apply than more complex rotations on meta builds. People really have to get rid of that notion that golem DPS is everything. Actual encounters aren't golems and mechanics will disrupt rotations and gameplay.

4 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Maybe because a forum is more about discussion than passively watching YouTube videos?

Then discuss? What's wrong with sharing information here?

4 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

While I'm not expecting the same quality as the builds/guides on https://snowcrows.com/ or https://gw2mists.com/builds , but maybe are there at least links to your suggested builds on https://metabattle.com/ or http://en.gw2skills.net/ ? 

For some people, the written word is still more efficient (and more fun) than watching a YouTube video of a streamer speaking.

Thanks.

Dude, both the builds themselves and the original videos are literally linked in the video description. At least interact with the content instead of outright complaining.

 

[Zok.4956]

20 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

Dude, both the builds themselves and the original videos are literally linked in the video description. At least interact with the content instead of outright complaining.

Dude, it was a polite question and not a complaint.

If your intention was to spread low-intensity builds further in the community, it would have made sense to put the links to the builds/guides pages here in the forum. Then the people who don't click on youtube links would also have seen them and it would be easier to share and give the builds to others.

[Shikaru.7618]

16 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I did three maps worth of content in EoD, and died to multiple HP bosses where other classes had no issues killing them in seconds, maybe its the terrible healing Guardian has but its damage felt low as well, compared to Engi, Ranger, Necro, Mesmer and Thief Specter of which i passed all of EoD with with no real issues..

Mesmer, Necro, Engi, Ranger, Specter Thief.

 

Warrior, Revenant, Ele and Guardian are all trash in my opinion.

Sounds like a severe learn to play situation. Saying guardian is weak is about as misguided as saying ranger has no ranged weapons.

[Dante.1508]

4 hours ago, Shikaru.7618 said:

Sounds like a severe learn to play situation. Saying guardian is weak is about as misguided as saying ranger has no ranged weapons.

Funny how i had no issues learning to play all those others..

[maxwelgm.4315]

16 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

I originally posted this under General Discussions. It was later moved here though. Would have prefered it if it had stayed in General Discussions since these builds are also good for open world gameplay.

As long as you do decent damage and are able to pull your weight, nobody will really care what build you're using. At least I've never had problems trying out LI builds in PUGs on EU. Funny thing is that these builds are more likely to reach their potential due to being easier to apply than more complex rotations on meta builds. People really have to get rid of that notion that golem DPS is everything. Actual encounters aren't golems and mechanics will disrupt rotations and gameplay.

Then discuss? What's wrong with sharing information here?

Dude, both the builds themselves and the original videos are literally linked in the video description. At least interact with the content instead of outright complaining.

 

The thing is that LI builds fulfill excellently their niche of aiding players with disabilities in reaching very high benchmarks with low actions per minute. If a player has no such disability I assure you they can reach higher DPS by just pressing all the cooldowns of a meta build. Literally random pressing buttons with condi SB will be better than the LI rotation as long as your build is exactly word per word the same as the one used to benchmark, including runes, sigils and what not. Not pressing any skills (even randomly) and not having the exact build is the #1 and #2 causes for low DPS. This is an important point even semi-exp players miss - that LI builds fulfill a very specific purpose and they are better off acknowledging that they don't have any such disability keeping them from playing. The fact that LI builds can reach high benches is awesome and if Anet has deliberately allowed players to reach high DPS with low APM they should definitely keep doing that. But it's a bit bad on oneself if they would have no trouble with pressing many keys at once (even nearly random ones) and instead choose to handicap themselves with low APM builds that are excellent to the public they're designed for.

 

But of course this is the part of the discussion relevant to instanced content. Why not play low APM in open world to go easy on ourselves? Doing world map exploration or farming can get tiresome really fast and there's no reason not to go low APM in that case no matter who we are.

[Dante.1508]

15 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

The thing is that LI builds fulfill excellently their niche of aiding players with disabilities in reaching very high benchmarks with low actions per minute. If a player has no such disability I assure you they can reach higher DPS by just pressing all the cooldowns of a meta build. Literally random pressing buttons with condi SB will be better than the LI rotation as long as your build is exactly word per word the same as the one used to benchmark, including runes, sigils and what not. Not pressing any skills (even randomly) and not having the exact build is the #1 and #2 causes for low DPS. This is an important point even semi-exp players miss - that LI builds fulfill a very specific purpose and they are better off acknowledging that they don't have any such disability keeping them from playing. The fact that LI builds can reach high benches is awesome and if Anet has deliberately allowed players to reach high DPS with low APM they should definitely keep doing that. But it's a bit bad on oneself if they would have no trouble with pressing many keys at once (even nearly random ones) and instead choose to handicap themselves with low APM builds that are excellent to the public they're designed for.

 

But of course this is the part of the discussion relevant to instanced content. Why not play low APM in open world to go easy on ourselves? Doing world map exploration or farming can get tiresome really fast and there's no reason not to go low APM in that case no matter who we are.

I know this might be a shock to many but ping times are also a huge change in Dps, for me in a large group or even solo to hit my skills they arent instantly cast, they sit there flickering for ages before the skill fires off, up to 3-4 seconds sometimes on a bad day, so i assume that would affect the dps of a meta build as well.. So even with the exact build and setup i bet my rotations do less dps then say USA players with tiny ping times..

[maxwelgm.4315]

9 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

I know this might be a shock to many but ping times are also a huge change in Dps, for me in a large group or even solo to hit my skills they arent instantly cast, they sit there flickering for ages before the skill fires off, up to 3-4 seconds sometimes on a bad day, so i assume that would affect the dps of a meta build as well.. So even with the exact build and setup i bet my rotations do less dps then say USA players with tiny ping times..

 

I play with 150 to 350 ping at all times due to distance to the NA servers, and I still get high DPS with the exact build and setup of most meta builds - I don't play elementalist because I don't like it, but it would likely work in a similar manner as I can play the Holosmith and Mechanist builds, even if I have a 5s delay window and have to spam buttons. LI builds won't help that (quite on the contrary, you already have a higher delay so why limit yourself to e.g 9 actions per minute when your 2 to 5s window can go anywhere from 12 to 30 APM?). LI builds are a very nice thing, the community should keep thriving on them and theorycrafting on this - I am merely saying that the buttons you press are actually not the biggest % of your DPS using a meta build, a huge player driven misconception - in fact, the buttons you don't press are far more important. Then again, this is not a you issue, and I mean it for everyone trying LI builds who could instead be adding several skills into their rotation for better results and still pretty much no effort. You already said above you can play several classes (including Engie kinda proving ping is no issue there) with a few exceptions like Guardian and Warrior, so that shouldn't be an issue either. That's not to say I don't recommend everyone to play LI builds in open world, I do and that is the comfiest option possible - but in raids/fractals/strikes this is just limiting yourself when this is meant as a workaround to people out there with actual limitations.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/21/2022 at 2:50 PM, Raizel.8175 said:

Not really. Expecting people to do at least 7k DPS with several buffs during DE while decent celestial open world builds can easily do 10k minimum isn't unreasonable.

Expecting people that run bad builds because they don't use third party sites for information to improve due to an information obtained through third-party site however is certainly unreasonable.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

22 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Expecting people that run bad builds because they don't use third party sites for information to improve due to an information obtained through third-party site however is certainly unreasonable.

Then don't rely on the third party sites and use the tools the game provides. People creating those builds you can find on those horrible third party sites started out on what the game offerend. Those third party sites save you the time it takes to experiment with options and presents you with possibilities.

What's with this "the game should tell me everything" idea? Why are people expecting the game to explain every little thing and tell them the best combination? 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Then don't rely on the third party sites and use the tools the game provides. People creating those builds you can find on those horrible third party sites started out on what the game offerend. Those third party sites save you the time it takes to experiment with options and presents you with possibilities.

Because even among hardcore players those that can make good builds from scratch are a minority. And among casuals it's even worse - hardcores after all at least know around which stat sets they should base their build around, and that dps is the king. Many of casuals however still think that the best stat set is celestial (because, you know, it has the most points) and will go after hybrid builds with defensive stats (because if you're dead, you do no damage). And those are the players that do think about that stuff.

The game offers no tools whatsoever to let players understand the build/gear systems well. And it definitely does not help in making players understand that a lot of choices that seem good on paper turn out not so good in reality. Nor does it give any help in comparing those builds you have made with those of other players, or with the potential that exists.

For example, sure, you can use golem to check your damage. There's nothing in there however to tell you whether the values you saw are good or bad, or how they compare to those of other players. So, you see some numbers that tell you nothing without context, and you neither know if those are good enough, whether you could improve them, nor how you might go about improving them.

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What's with this "the game should tell me everything" idea? Why are people expecting the game to explain every little thing and tell them the best combination? 

Because the mysterious puzzle that is the gearing/build system is a game that is completely separate to the game they came there to play, and as such they may not be well suited for it.

But yes, you're right. If Anet devs want their player population to improve, they should not depend on help from third party sites but should themselves create in-game tools and systems that would help disseminating the knowledge needed for that improvement.

Notice, i said "knowledge" not "skill", because it's the lack of knowledge, not skill, that holds most players back.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The game offers no tools whatsoever to let players understand the build/gear systems well. 

Move your mouse over your skills, traits, runes, armor, stats. 
"Hm, these skills don't have any conditions on them, but have nice damage, hm, these stats increase my damage/crit, this trait gives me more crit damage, this rune gives me more damage and crit"
Absolutely nothing from the game. You don't read your skills, traits, ec. don't expect to know what they do.

[Linken.6345]

54 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Move your mouse over your skills, traits, runes, armor, stats. 
"Hm, these skills don't have any conditions on them, but have nice damage, hm, these stats increase my damage/crit, this trait gives me more crit damage, this rune gives me more damage and crit"
Absolutely nothing from the game. You don't read your skills, traits, ec. don't expect to know what they do.

You cant expect people to read things that is to elitist.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Move your mouse over your skills, traits, runes, armor, stats. 
"Hm, these skills don't have any conditions on them, but have nice damage, hm, these stats increase my damage/crit, this trait gives me more crit damage, this rune gives me more damage and crit"
Absolutely nothing from the game. You don't read your skills, traits, ec. don't expect to know what they do.

And now they understand the individual skills, traits and runes. Sure. So what? How that does help them in understanding that they should not go for hybrid power/condi builds? How that tells them that going for survival-based builds and investing in toughness and vitality is mostly useless? How that makes them realize that they should use 2 weapon sets for the same purpose, and switch them for dps increase, instead as (how it was initially suggested) use 2 different weapon sets fro completely different situations (i.e. one melee set and one ranged set)? How will that make them choose between 2-3 different traits that each seem to be helpful (in a different way) when they can't really understand full impact of them on their effectiveness? How will they know about the effect of traits that are not a flat +%bonus? (like knowing that for warriors discipline is practically obligatory, just due to Fast Hands)?

Knowing what something does often does not tell you how exactly does that help you, and neither there's a way to compare with other things that also seem helpful.

Hint: there's a ton of people with very well thought-out builds out there, that still do not make sense, because what they offer is not really needed (but there's no easy way to know that). For example, that very process you described (reading the traits and thinking about what they do) led to me running with a very well thought out bunker guardian build that was doing laughable levels of damage. Which i managed to notice only after i have installed Arc. Up to that point, sure, i knew i wasn't doing as much dps as glass builds, but i honestly thought that survivability and utility given by that build are well worth that "small" loss in dps. There was nothing in the game to tell me that this loss was not small at all, and that the gains i have felt were so precious were in reality mostly worthless. Many years later, there's still nothing like this in the game. Any such info exists only outside of it. And you have to first know you need to search for it before you can find it. Which, again, game does not tell you.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Astralporing.1957