PvP is at its worst

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Not a good take. Class-class balance influences team-team balance in a major way; they're intrinsically linked. Not everyone plays every class to the same skill level, nor wants to. And you're making this vague concept of balance out to be more difficult ("impossible") than it is.

It's not 36 distinct classes. If you swap out the elite spec traitline, 2/3 of your traits and all of your utilities could still be identical per class variant. Often times they are. Yes, there are many possible combinations and making all of those viable at the same time would be difficult. Most of the people complaining on these forums aren't asking for anything near that level of diversity.

At least 3 whole classes (including all their elites) have seen little to no competitive play over the past 2-3 months. Making 9 builds (1 per class) competitive is definitely achievable and would be a big step in the right direction.

There are a number of good reasons. To list a few:

1. Not everyone enjoys multi-classing or has the time to.

2. MMORPGs foster attachment to a single or few characters.

3. The same 3 "OP" classes fighting each other is repetitive and not fun to play or watch. This reduces the playerbase.

4. In a competitive environment, winning (getting kills, being useful etc) is fun. If the gap between OP classes/specs and yours is so great that winning is nigh impossible, you're probably not having fun. If you're not having fun, you probably swap to the OP class (see #3) or quit. This reduces the playerbase.

5. Hoping for situations to improve is a normal, human response. Better balance is not impossible. 

This post is important and bears QFT. 

I'd also like to garnish this with contempt for the people that justified holding off on balance changes until AFTER EoD dropped, like 9 additional denominations of play wouldn't frustrate the already struggling situation.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Dadnir.5038]

PvP? At it's worst? I believe we see this kind of thing writen every month since release of the game.

So the question is: "Is it a new low or just yet another post from someone burnt out by the monotony of the gamemode?"

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

15 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I believe we see this kind of thing writen every month since release of the game.

Thats because its only ever been getting worse

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

4 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Hearing one particular british streamer unironically applaud Anet for these ''balance'' changes, and then seeing others agree with him... It's positive reinforcement for bad decisions. 

Could be one of the streamers who is literally paid to be excited.

At least on patch day. Inevitably, even the resolute and stalwart of minds will crack under a consistent lack of dopamine and outward stimulation.

Eventually during some event, someone is going to get bored and start /dancing or /sleeping on a point for 10 minutes and then that's there for all the sPvP world to see.

[JTGuevara.9018]

12 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

((Opinions of a player who has never touched Necro in PVP, expects & invites Harbinger nerfs at June 28th patch, and strives to meet every challenge head-on))

Sahne, this is less about you specifically and moreso this general flavor of PVPer (especially since Harbinger & Willbender are the latest in combat-mentality brainrot), but put plainly;

Hours playing a class alone does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness.

 

While your anecdotal experience with this Harbinger player is very common and reasonably true, the outcome you derived from it is a strong indicator why you are not at the combat-effectiveness you want to be.

-------------------------------------------

Quick definition aside

Now combat-effectiveness, personally, is a simple combination of;

(Personal Skill) + (Class Rank)

Personal Skill encompasses things like;

i) Experience (basically data, ie Raw play hours, familiarity from similar games) 

ii) Integration (ie HOW you process experiential data and translate that to tangible improvement)

iii) Tangible Skillset (things that are directly affected by improvement, ie reaction time, skill-timing, CC placement, dodging, combo construction, decision-making, etc)

Class Rank encompasses mainly; 

i) Mechanics (how does your class fair both in isolation and in relation to other classes)

-----------------------------------------------

I won't begin to pretend like I have any idea how the fire Weaver/Harbinger matchup is like (it really could be as depressing as you claim it to be), but what you have to realize is that whatever it is, the Class Rank between *your class of choice* and *top tiers (ie Harbinger and Willbender)* are (mostly) out of your control.

 

^This is, granted, a fairly straightforward realization, but it is where many players stop. They say things like "I've played 900 hours on my class and I cannot beat (x) new class/build = ALL i need to win is to play (x) class/build = (x) class/build is broken = Anet fix your game".

>This kind of player banks their success on patch-to-patch balance, and therefore they are very likely to be dominant in a favorable patch, but weak-to-nonexistent in an unfavorable one. (this is the degenerate "Flavor of the Month" mentality you talked about, but you also exhibit it but on the receiving end)

 

However, if the two barriers to success in combat are Personal Skill and Class Rank, and one of those is fundamentally OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, then it raises two crucial (but difficult to swallow) realizations about your future experiences with this game;

1) You are not entitled to success.

The most consistently good players have accepted the following;

>In ANY patch, there are going to be matchups that you are VERY likely not to win

>Anet has the power to make your build as unviable as they wish, and other builds as viable as they wish

>10 years of experience is just that. Experience (Data!). There are players that have only been playing for <2 years that will smoke you, easily.

>You will lose against low-skill players on meta builds

>You will definitely lose against high-skill players on meta builds

>You will lose against high-skill players on non-meta builds

>You'll even lose against "low-skill" players on your own build ((this might the hardest to accept, even for me))

 

These are all situations and events that are likely to trigger the version of you that tries to protect yourself (blaming balance, reinforcing how much experience you have, going to PVP-forum.com to type out your frustrations, etc), a.k.a your Ego. I'm sure we've all heard about ego here and there, but in relation to PVP, an overactive ego puts up deceptive mental blocks that focuses our attention on external outcomes and blinds us to any possibility of personal responsibility. It's up to you to recognize these blocks and streamline your improvement.

Your 10 years of experience does not entitle you to beat a player with 1 year of experience (same with PVP rank). That player could have a combo that you've never seen before, you could have a poor judgement of your spacing, you could be having an off-day, or they simply just rolled you with their beefy Harbinger autos. The result is still the same;

You can't beat everybody. You won't beat everybody. It's not about beating everybody.

 

2) GW2 really is about skill

In that it is your only constant solace against the uncontrollable nature of Class Rank. Even at its best, it will not carry you above and beyond EVERY top-tier class/build (see point 1 if you still feel any resistance to this), but pure & outright success is not realistic. Remember Class Rank is not up to you.

>Vindicator got slapped, Mechanist got slapped, MM Necro got slapped, Holo is outshined, Herald is outshined, Crev got slapped, Firebrand got slapped, the list goes on. If you put stock into any of these builds solely by their Class Rank against other builds at the time, you're probably long gone onto the next meta build.

 

I forget which video exactly it was, but I watched one of Sindrener's recent thief gameplays, and in the comments someone asked what he thought about the upcoming balance patch in terms of Necro changes. Sindrener replied with tbf the most beautiful response about balance I've ever heard; "Idc about balance".

>It sounds like a doomer take, but what I got out of this was that the best players accept hard matchups for what they are. Hard. Unfair. Rage-inducing. Disgusting. Degenerate. Broken. *insert Expletive*. And in spite of it, they struggle, practice, and experiment their way around it. And even if they can't, they are still much a better player for all the effort.

 

^This is the stance I've personally been trying to remind myself of more often. And believe me it's not easy (imagine doing it with infamously underperforming classes like Warrior or Core Engi). Disgusting builds will come again and again. We've had plenty before Harbinger, we'll have plenty after. Again it's OK, remember;

You can't beat everybody. You won't beat everybody. It's not about beating everybody.

 

**In defense of Class Rank

None of what I've laid out is to say that advocating for overperforming classes to come down or underperforming classes to come up is wrong. Anet clearly has trends of ignoring both, and addressing both is objectively good for the fun of the most players possible. People want the builds that they play to be good, and if you've had your favorite build nerfed out of existence (beyond any reasonable effort of personal improvement you may want to invest), then you are entirely justified to move to a new class or even to a new game to find fun elsewhere. It's a sad reality, but it happens.

 

TLDR;

12 confuses, 3 crying faces, I have no idea what I'm talking abt, I'm not bad you are, Nerf Harbinger plss

"Hours playing a class alone does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness."

"Personal Skill encompasses things like;

i) Experience (basically data, ie Raw play hours, familiarity from similar games) "

So, which is it? See, besides the preachy vibe of the post, some logical consistency and proofreading would've been preferred!

[vilesoldier.9826]

6 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

"Hours playing a class >>ALONE<< does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness."

"Personal Skill encompasses things like;

i) Experience (basically data, ie Raw play hours, familiarity from similar games) "

So, which is it? See, besides the preachy vibe of the post, some logical consistency and proofreading would've been preferred!

It's a tad bit more logically consistent when you actually focus on the correct important words, friend :3 (dw, I made it easy to spot in your quote)

Edited June 8, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

19 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

ANet: Wow we didn't think about it that way. I think we will nerf core engi again. 

It would help if some of the more prominant voices/streamers would stop advocating for this...  ahem... "balance". The voices of these people hold real weight in the community. The major win trade drama should be proof of that.

 

Community voice also matters. Everyone complained about mechanist because "It doesn't belong in PvP"  and it appeared in every cough... "balance" patch as a result. The general sentiment once it was finally dead "good riddance"

(Dwayna forbid the Engineers, the builders and inventors of this fantasy world start building things to help them in combat in this combat oriented game. Stop hiding behind your inventions you cowards!)

Hearing one particular british streamer unironically applaud Anet for these ''balance'' changes, and then seeing others agree with him... It's positive reinforcement for bad decisions. 

The only way I can see this changing is if someone else with a large enough voice starts to challenge the "Nerf X" rhetoric that permeates so much of the community. Once the overwhelming community feedback changes, Anet may very well listen. They've been receptive up until now. 

 

The fun part...is that streamers and top players are the "self-appointed authority on how to balance games." So not only do they hold weight in influencing the opinions and views of the population, they are also are the intellectual authority on those views. This is disturbing...you wouldn't want your country run like this, but yet people are comfortable with this here.

 

In the same token, A-net does this but also on the other side of the yard: They listen to, and cater to a specific group of newbie players (PVE) for the sake of cashflow. Those players have no idea...(just like the top PVP players) about game balance, diversity, or how changes effect the behavior of game systems. I could go on and on about some of these things, like the solo-ability of this game as being a huge issue with current MMO culture and how it cultivates toxicity and feelings of isolation...but I think I introduce enough depression into the gw2 forums.

Edited June 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Downstate.4697]

23 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

The fun part...is that streamers and top players are the "self-appointed authority on how to balance games." So not only do they hold weight in influencing the opinions and views of the population, they are also are the intellectual authority on those views. This is disturbing...you wouldn't want your country run like this, but yet people are comfortable with this here.

 

In the same token, A-net does this but also on the other side of the yard: They listen to, and cater to a specific group of newbie players (PVE) for the sake of cashflow. Those players have no idea...(just like the top PVP players) about game balance, diversity, or how changes effect the behavior of game systems. I could go on and on about some of these things, like the solo-ability of this game as being a huge issue with current MMO culture and how it cultivates toxicity and feelings of isolation...but I think I introduce enough depression into the gw2 forums.

Most people interested in pvp will watch the monthly ATs and/or top streamers like boyce and naru. This holds incredible weight to how the meta shapes. For example, I knew tempest was going to push guard out of this meta a month before the AT and people only started playing it after the AT. Willbender also became popular partly because of naru.

That being said, the meta in lower ranks is often different and broken dps pug stomp builds will not only work but push out enough damage to make new players uninstall. The damage is so high that it deletes their system32 folder automatically.

I guess what I am saying is balance is focused on the top end meta partly because of streaming and it influences how many people play it. Anet has more data points to make decisions. Meanwhile 1 shot soulbeast and spin to win zerker ruin the experience in lower tiers and are never addressed

[Sahne.6950]

On 6/7/2022 at 4:55 PM, GeneralBM.5781 said:

((Opinions of a player who has never touched Necro in PVP, expects & invites Harbinger nerfs at June 28th patch, and strives to meet every challenge head-on))

Sahne, this is less about you specifically and moreso this general flavor of PVPer (especially since Harbinger & Willbender are the latest in combat-mentality brainrot), but put plainly;

Hours playing a class alone does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness.

 

While your anecdotal experience with this Harbinger player is very common and reasonably true, the outcome you derived from it is a strong indicator why you are not at the combat-effectiveness you want to be.

-------------------------------------------

Quick definition aside

Now combat-effectiveness, personally, is a simple combination of;

(Personal Skill) + (Class Rank)

Personal Skill encompasses things like;

i) Experience (basically data, ie Raw play hours, familiarity from similar games) 

ii) Integration (ie HOW you process experiential data and translate that to tangible improvement)

iii) Tangible Skillset (things that are directly affected by improvement, ie reaction time, skill-timing, CC placement, dodging, combo construction, decision-making, etc)

Class Rank encompasses mainly; 

i) Mechanics (how does your class fair both in isolation and in relation to other classes)

-----------------------------------------------

I won't begin to pretend like I have any idea how the fire Weaver/Harbinger matchup is like (it really could be as depressing as you claim it to be), but what you have to realize is that whatever it is, the Class Rank between *your class of choice* and *top tiers (ie Harbinger and Willbender)* are (mostly) out of your control.

 

^This is, granted, a fairly straightforward realization, but it is where many players stop. They say things like "I've played 900 hours on my class and I cannot beat (x) new class/build = ALL i need to win is to play (x) class/build = (x) class/build is broken = Anet fix your game".

>This kind of player banks their success on patch-to-patch balance, and therefore they are very likely to be dominant in a favorable patch, but weak-to-nonexistent in an unfavorable one. (this is the degenerate "Flavor of the Month" mentality you talked about, but you also exhibit it but on the receiving end)

 

However, if the two barriers to success in combat are Personal Skill and Class Rank, and one of those is fundamentally OUT OF YOUR CONTROL, then it raises two crucial (but difficult to swallow) realizations about your future experiences with this game;

1) You are not entitled to success.

The most consistently good players have accepted the following;

>In ANY patch, there are going to be matchups that you are VERY likely not to win

>Anet has the power to make your build as unviable as they wish, and other builds as viable as they wish

>10 years of experience is just that. Experience (Data!). There are players that have only been playing for <2 years that will smoke you, easily.

>You will lose against low-skill players on meta builds

>You will definitely lose against high-skill players on meta builds

>You will lose against high-skill players on non-meta builds

>You'll even lose against "low-skill" players on your own build ((this might the hardest to accept, even for me))

 

These are all situations and events that are likely to trigger the version of you that tries to protect yourself (blaming balance, reinforcing how much experience you have, going to PVP-forum.com to type out your frustrations, etc), a.k.a your Ego. I'm sure we've all heard about ego here and there, but in relation to PVP, an overactive ego puts up deceptive mental blocks that focuses our attention on external outcomes and blinds us to any possibility of personal responsibility. It's up to you to recognize these blocks and streamline your improvement.

Your 10 years of experience does not entitle you to beat a player with 1 year of experience (same with PVP rank). That player could have a combo that you've never seen before, you could have a poor judgement of your spacing, you could be having an off-day, or they simply just rolled you with their beefy Harbinger autos. The result is still the same;

You can't beat everybody. You won't beat everybody. It's not about beating everybody.

 

2) GW2 really is about skill

In that it is your only constant solace against the uncontrollable nature of Class Rank. Even at its best, it will not carry you above and beyond EVERY top-tier class/build (see point 1 if you still feel any resistance to this), but pure & outright success is not realistic. Remember Class Rank is not up to you.

>Vindicator got slapped, Mechanist got slapped, MM Necro got slapped, Holo is outshined, Herald is outshined, Crev got slapped, Firebrand got slapped, the list goes on. If you put stock into any of these builds solely by their Class Rank against other builds at the time, you're probably long gone onto the next meta build.

 

I forget which video exactly it was, but I watched one of Sindrener's recent thief gameplays, and in the comments someone asked what he thought about the upcoming balance patch in terms of Necro changes. Sindrener replied with tbf the most beautiful response about balance I've ever heard; "Idc about balance".

>It sounds like a doomer take, but what I got out of this was that the best players accept hard matchups for what they are. Hard. Unfair. Rage-inducing. Disgusting. Degenerate. Broken. *insert Expletive*. And in spite of it, they struggle, practice, and experiment their way around it. And even if they can't, they are still much a better player for all the effort.

 

^This is the stance I've personally been trying to remind myself of more often. And believe me it's not easy (imagine doing it with infamously underperforming classes like Warrior or Core Engi). Disgusting builds will come again and again. We've had plenty before Harbinger, we'll have plenty after. Again it's OK, remember;

You can't beat everybody. You won't beat everybody. It's not about beating everybody.

 

**In defense of Class Rank

None of what I've laid out is to say that advocating for overperforming classes to come down or underperforming classes to come up is wrong. Anet clearly has trends of ignoring both, and addressing both is objectively good for the fun of the most players possible. People want the builds that they play to be good, and if you've had your favorite build nerfed out of existence (beyond any reasonable effort of personal improvement you may want to invest), then you are entirely justified to move to a new class or even to a new game to find fun elsewhere. It's a sad reality, but it happens.

 

TLDR;

12 confuses, 3 crying faces, I have no idea what I'm talking abt, I'm not bad you are, Nerf Harbinger plss (but actually tho)

Holy mother of textwall... i just skimmed it...   And all i have to say after this...

Harbinger is op. Please nerf Harbinger. uuhmmm i mean... PLEASE DONT NERF HARBINGER! I JUST PAID 30 BUCKS TO WIN!

I played some of Harbis counters and should the Harbinger do 1 or 2 mistakes you can get them... they are no gods! BUT! if a single profession can Gatekeep almost 32 other professions and render them completly useless.... THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING WRONG! 

Yes a good Soulbeast can burst them. Yes Vindicator can maybe outsustain them... but that is about it... the rest is a flipping freekill! nothing they can do. Harbinger will just overwhelm them with weakness and condivomit.

and concerning your "timeplayed" =/= "performance"....       I LITERALLY DID NOT READ ANY TRAITS/SKILLS yet....  I JUST SPAMMED EVERYTHING OFFCOOLDOWN AND WAS EXPONENTIALLY STRONGER THAN ANYTHING THAT IS CURRENTLY RUNNING AROUND IN GW2.

I did not know about any synergies/combos/HECK I DID NOT EVEN READ MY TRAITS.... Whereas i had almost 10 years to find every niche combo and finisher to abuse on my other classes... BUT THAT IS NOTHING COMPARED TO JUST HOLDING EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN ON NECRO. No brain required... just vomit the condis and you will be fine....

Your skill does not matter, because necro doenst require any critical thinking... just go "HURT-HURT-Circle under enemy go b00m" and everything dies. Just literally going Apemode will kill 85-90% of professions out there!. Harbinger literally just has 3-4 Matchups where there even is a remote chance that the Harbinger dies.. but if you play them good.. you will even win those.  (atleast from my experience; Platinum 1 currently)

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[semak.7481]

13 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

AND I PLAYED DOUBLE DODGE MIRAGE WHEN IT CAME OUT....

 

I mean, you have some weird convo I dont care about but when it comes to "oh my god double dodge mirage on release..." fb/scourge(in fact, I'v played scourge and couldnt believe how much it was easier and stronger it is compared to anything I'v played before mirage included)/holo/spb werent falling anywhere behind of mirage.

[Sahne.6950]

1 minute ago, semak.7481 said:

 

I mean, you have some weird convo I dont care about but when it comes to "oh my god double dodge mirage on release..." fb/scourge(in fact, I'v played scourge and couldnt believe how much it was easier and stronger it is compared to anything I'v played before mirage included)/holo/spb werent falling anywhere behind of mirage.

i did not play them at the time^^ but i know there was a few 0MEGA b0nkers builds around over the lifespan of gw2.... i remember the good ol Chrono bunker days aswell... just wanted to give a random example.

[semak.7481]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i did not play them at the time^^ but i know there was a few 0MEGA b0nkers builds around over the lifespan of gw2.... i remember the good ol Chrono bunker days aswell... just wanted to give a random example.

I havent played new harb but I dont think its just as broken as scourge on release was

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Tbh it's just Harbinger & Willbender right now.

These two classes have reached an unprecedented level of stupid overperformance.

It's pushing like everything out of viability outside of Vind, Specter, and Supports

[vilesoldier.9826]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Holy mother of textwall... i just skimmed it...   And all i have to say after this...

Hope you get a proper chance to read it (or don't I'm not your mom), it's got some points that really grounded me and streamlined my improvement playing off-meta builds, it might be useful to you too.

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

concerning your "timeplayed" =/= "performance"....       I LITERALLY DID NOT READ ANY TRAITS/SKILLS yet....  I JUST SPAMMED EVERYTHING OFFCOOLDOWN AND WAS EXPONENTIALLY STRONGER THAN ANYTHING THAT IS CURRENTLY RUNNING AROUND IN GW2.

Hours played =/= performance was in reference to your lack of success playing your class, not your success playing Harbinger (more on that below)

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I did not know about any synergies/combos/HECK I DID NOT EVEN READ MY TRAITS.... Whereas i had almost 10 years to find every niche combo and finisher to abuse on my other classes... BUT THAT IS NOTHING COMPARED TO JUST HOLDING EVERYTHING ON COOLDOWN ON NECRO. No brain required... just vomit the condis and you will be fine....

Your skill does not matter, because necro doenst require any critical thinking... just go "HURT-HURT-Circle under enemy go b00m" and everything dies. Just literally going Apemode will kill 85-90% of professions out there!. Harbinger literally just has 3-4 Matchups where there even is a remote chance that the Harbinger dies.. but if you play them good.. you will even win those.  (atleast from my experience; Platinum 1 currently)

Your tone in this post now seems to be entirely the standard "brr Nerf Harbinger" post (which is fair, nobody's hating on it), whereas your last post, while also advocating for Harb nerfs, was predicated on you being a 10-year experienced player and being upset that you lost to someone who can't time their dodges & afks in AOEs.

(10-year experienced player and being upset that you lost to someone who can't time their dodges & afks in AOEs) <- this specifically is what spawned the entire post.

The entire point of my last post was to urge you to lean-in to your atrocious, downright vile matchups (in this case Harbinger) with a sense of doomer-like acceptance that hopefully will allow you to only lose to a better caliber of Harbinger (a.k.a a Harbinger using 1 braincell instead of none)

Edited June 9, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Sahne.6950]

9 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

The entire point of my last post was to urge you to lean-in to your atrocious, downright vile matchups (in this case Harbinger) with a sense of doomer-like acceptance that hopefully will allow you only lose to a better caliber of Harbinger (a.k.a a Harbinger using 1 braincell instead of none)

I am multiclassing. I played every possible counter to harb... the best thing i could come up with was tempest and Soulbeast... But if even the supposed "counters" are having a hardtime and require the harb to make actual mistakes... there is NOTHING about this that i will accept or "lean-in". im sorry.

i am aware of the "rock-paper-scissor" balancing where X profession will beat Y profession but loose to Z Profession, yada yada. 

But here it is literally:  Harb will win against profession ABDC...XY (literally 90% of builds).   And harbi is on equal footing against Profession Z.   Harbinger literally doesnt have a matchup which it outright looses. It just has matchups that it could potentially loose if the Harbinger is making mistakes. It is just clearly overperforming, same goes for Willbender. They leave everything pre-EoD completly in the dust.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Odin.6487]

On 6/7/2022 at 3:28 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Till this weekend i was completly against buying EoD, because i felt that most classes were poorly designed and just a straightup powercreep. But after a long duell session against a harbinger in pvplobby.... i had enough. This guy was SO BAD! He was just mindlessly standing in my AoE´s, he was eating every CC skill that i had and i swear to god he did not dodge anything.... Yet i got completly clapped when playing my... id say pretty good Fireweaver......  i just had no chance... he could make 15 mistakes and i do 0 and still loose.

So i threw all my honor out of the window... bought EoD and created a Necro!

i NEVER....NEVER NEVER ever played Necro before.... well guess what.

People that were HUGE obstacles for me (after a while you know your few people that duell there alot) were suddenly freekills. No challenge whatsoever. Just PEW PEW PEW -> Dead. Guess who Queued Ranked right after this experience and got 12 Wins in a row... Yeah! How can anyone defend this?! When almost 5 years of exclusively playing Elementalis followed by 5 more Years of playing Ranger and Ele.... will not even bring me close to the level of performance that i will have when playing Necor/Harbinger for the literal first time... THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING OFF WITH THE BALANCING!

Imagine you putting YEARS into a profession... you feel yourself getting better and better.. you feel really good about your skillevel by now....        you then create a necro out of frustration and right in your first hour of playing it you greatly exceed the level of performance that you grew over the last 10 years.... DISGUSTING! 

You have so many people claiming Gw2 is about Skill.... when in reality it is all about playing the "Flavor of the Month". I think there is nothing that shows this clearer than this example.

#Please dont nerf Harbinger, as i just paid 30 Bucks to gain free elo in spvp. Thanks.

aint it weird. even the most dog water eod specs are in the top 10 percent of all the specs lol. 

[vilesoldier.9826]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I am multiclassing. I played every possible counter to harb... the best thing i could come up with was tempest and Soulbeast... But if even the supposed "counters" are having a hardtime and require the harb to make actual mistakes... there is NOTHING about this that i will accept or "lean-in". im sorry.

C'est la vie 🤷‍♂️

I've done it on my Herald, I've seen it done on Chrono, I was even having fun yesterday watching deadtrigger farm it on his Holo. ig we all have different strengths, I know I certainly can't play Chrono well enough to beat Harb.

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i am aware of the "rock-paper-scissor" balancing where X profession will beat Y profession but loose to Z Profession, yada yada. 

But here it is literally:  Harb will win against profession ABDC...XY (literally 90% of builds).   And harbi is on equal footing against Profession Z.   Harbinger literally doesnt have a matchup which it outright looses. It just has matchups that it could potentially loose if the Harbinger is making mistakes. It is just clearly overperforming, same goes for Willbender. They leave everything pre-EoD completly in the dust.

Again, we agree that Harbinger is busted. Analogy after analogy, vent-post after vent-post, AT after AT;  we get it, Harbinger is top 2 and it's not #2.

I guess I'm just, tired? over it? (idk the exact words I'm looking for)

Like, what am I gonna do, stop playing GW2 because I can't 8-2 destroy it? Throw my hands up because the matchup requires godlike effort solely on my part?

End of the day? It's up to Anet to figure out balance (whether they'll get it right is a whole other discussion), in the meantime I'd rather focus on things that are entirely within my power. If that means godlike effort for marginal success? 🤷‍♂️ still a better player for it and having fun doing it too

 

**I will say this does also depend on where you get your fun from; I'm one that holds improvement far over success. If that isn't you, entirely justified too

Edited June 9, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 6/8/2022 at 4:02 AM, GeneralBM.5781 said:

It's a tad bit more logically consistent when you actually focus on the correct important words, friend :3 (dw, I made it easy to spot in your quote)

"Tad bit", you say. In other words, inconsistent. Logic does not work that way. Logic involves propositions (yes or no statements). Good try though.

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

"Tad bit", you say. In other words, inconsistent. Logic does not work that way. Logic involves propositions (yes or no statements). Good try though.

"Tad bit" was me being sarcastic about you claiming my post was LoGiCaLly InCoNsIsTeNt solely based off the fact that you couldn't read all the words in one sentence.

Mans saw "Hours" in two places, stunlocked himself, and completely ignored the "alone" just three words away.

[JTGuevara.9018]

10 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

"Tad bit" was me being sarcastic about you claiming my post was LoGiCaLly InCoNsIsTeNt solely based off the fact that you couldn't read all the words in one sentence.

Mans saw "Hours" in two places, stunlocked himself, and completely ignored the "alone" just three words away.

In other words, logically inconsistent. Your "logic" only holds on the assumption that experience in raw hours implies not playing alone, in which you did not explicitly mention there. That is why I picked out those two quotes. Unless you would like to clarify that experience(according to you) would involve playing with others. THEN your argument would actually stand on something other than wet paper and sand.

 

As far as the rest of the hot air that you've posted...well...(blinks and yawns)...

[vilesoldier.9826]

38 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

In other words, logically inconsistent. Your "logic" only holds on the assumption that experience in raw hours implies not playing alone, in which you did not explicitly mention there. That is why I picked out those two quotes. Unless you would like to clarify that experience(according to you) would involve playing with others. THEN your argument would actually stand on something other than wet paper and sand.

 

As far as the rest of the hot air that you've posted...well...(blinks and yawns)...

......???

lol wut.

 

JT I think you are completely misreading this sentence; "Hours playing a class alone does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness."

let me try and rephrase for you,

Alone, hours playing a class does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness

or

Hours playing a class, by itself, does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness

 

I'm not talking about playing by yourself vs playing with others, ya goob kek

(lol this legitimately made my night, I'll edit my original post to make it more clear)

Edited June 9, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[JTGuevara.9018]

2 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

......???

lol wut.

 

JT I think you are completely misreading this sentence; "Hours playing a class alone does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness."

let me try and rephrase,

Alone, hours playing a class does not matter when it comes to combat-effectiveness

 

I'm not talking about playing by yourself vs playing with others kek

I misread nothing, the argument was never made clear in the first place. (Hence your rephrasing). 'Alone' has a few meanings, with the primary meaning being, "by yourself". It also means "exclusive of anything else". I went with the former and the way you used it in the sentence. Hence, that's why I called it out for inconsistency. If you meant the latter context, use it like this. Here...I'll rephrase: "Hours playing a class. This alone does not matter when it comes to combat effectiveness." Now your intent is clear.

 

I mean, it's still false, but at least it's a clear argument!

 

[Graymatter.4723]

14 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Harbinger literally doesnt have a matchup which it outright looses

A spellbreaker can completely lock down a harb.

[Tycura.1982]

34 minutes ago, Graymatter.4723 said:

A spellbreaker can completely lock down a harb.

And then dies to anything else

[Myror.7521]

@Tycura.1982 more like complete lock down harbringer. Dont deal any damage to him cause all you do is 0 dmg cc skills. Harb cc Brake instand cc you and 1 spaming you to death or simply oneshot ya to death. 😆 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Pati.2438