B2P vs P2W and the nature of GW2's "skill progression"

[Swagg.9236]

In the case of GW2:

PvE could be described as "buy to play."  Players get content (what little there truly is), but there is generally also the knot to address where new specs have historically released in states either outright better than previous build iterations or, at least, receive a number of generous touch-ups to "quickly" (at anet patch release speed anyway) elevate them to equal or slightly higher than their predecessors.  What this really means, though, is due to how homogenized all the possible options are, player choice and commitment doesn't really mean anything.  This can often lead to exclusionary nitpicking in team environments, but it also doesn't inherently give the solo player enough of a challenge to feel like their choices matter.  It's B2P at the expense of being an engaging experience; and in environments where people are aggressively attempting to clear content, it's very possibly a P2W situation (because players might be consistently excluded without the "right/best" classes or gear sets).

PvP, however, could be quite arguably described as P2W.  Statically, if you really want to look at it without the self-centered Damocles sword of "my time invested in MUH GW2 PvP SKILL is worth more than your observations" looming over your head, it's not difficult to spy the trend of every expansion dropping on its respective GW2 PvP environment like a 9.0 earthquake hitting a decrepit parking garage.  It's not always a COMPLETE turnover of class/spec representation (although, you can't argue that "core" specs have been struggling to tread water since the dawn of HoT), but the issue is that GW2's skill ceiling height is not truly defined by a universal, interactive slope of progression.  The paradigm shifts in jarring, up-and-down jerks heralded by patch notes; and to refuse to buy an expac in the midst of one's release is akin to entering a surfing competition, but only receiving a boogie board:  sure, you'll hit the waves, but you'll never truly stand up if you don't buy in to all the required equipment.  This isn't a game like Quake, Melee, or TF2 where you can see a honed skill difference across a continuity of fundamental player techniques; GW2 patches are deliberately designed to overpower or smother what players are currently doing prior to their respective releases.

By this point, though, with how most PvE players who regularly do that content have long since collectively gone full-180 from the days of "But, you can't kick me from your Arah party just because I'm a Necro/Ranger/Engie!" it's actually kind of hysterical to see GW2 be so abrasive and neglectful of the people who just want to see what it's about.  Either somebody gets duped into buying all the expansions just to participate in what probably ought to be the baseline experience, or they likely just get bored with the core game like most people did back in 2012 lol (nobody remembers this game's pop going from maximum hype train to a comparative ghost town in only about 6 months post-launch; and don't even try to defend it with how dead things got in 2014).  This is to say that while there might have been a buffer to save new players from this kind of close-minded  environment in PvE (as opposed to PvP's inherent, esoteric swamp of passive gameplay and opposition to innovation which rivals even the Adeptus Mechanicus), now even PvE isn't safe from the "Why are you playing that class/build?" question.

tl;dr GW2 PvP was never really competitive from the outset, but people who invested so much time into GW2 want to justify their loss.  Just accept things for what they are, dudes.  Why are so many people so vitriolic over this?  You can't say you got anything out of GW2?

[Guirssane.7082]

People expected it to be competitive during the first few years. Unfortunately after the first big tournament (won by dignitas I believe), pretty sure arenanet wasn't happy about the popularity of pvp and just stopped investing. 

[Pengu.7481]

7 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

PvP, however, could be quite arguably described as P2W.

No it cannot be arguably described as P2W and here is why:

P2W means theres a direct and CONSTANT correlation between the money you put into a game and the power u get out of it.

in case of gw2 once u buy the expansion u are on the same tier as everyone else. u cant buy the expansion twice to be twice as good in pvp

 

i cant believe how many ppl keep getting this wrong.

[Downstate.4697]

1 hour ago, toxic.3648 said:

No it cannot be arguably described as P2W and here is why:

P2W means theres a direct and CONSTANT correlation between the money you put into a game and the power u get out of it.

in case of gw2 once u buy the expansion u are on the same tier as everyone else. u cant buy the expansion twice to be twice as good in pvp

 

i cant believe how many ppl keep getting this wrong.

Wrong. I bought EoD twice and now im 2x as good.

[Lysico.4906]

Op.  You are wrong.  Really that simple 

[Crab Fear.8623]

5 hours ago, toxic.3648 said:

No it cannot be arguably described as P2W and here is why:

P2W means theres a direct and CONSTANT correlation between the money you put into a game and the power u get out of it.

in case of gw2 once u buy the expansion u are on the same tier as everyone else. u cant buy the expansion twice to be twice as good in pvp

 

i cant believe how many ppl keep getting this wrong.

 

 

Upgrade to win.

[Khalisto.5780]

LoL

 

If you starting now you have to drop 50 moneys and play like 2-3 years after you have to spend any money at the game. Which means you have to save like 1 money/month to be competitivr or you prolly has to play some of the old guardian/necro build that would prolly still be meta.

 

 

[DoomNexus.5324]

Since you can't buy anything that gives you an advantage that scales with how much you pay, I wouldn't consider GW2 p2w at all.
You buy the expansion and that's that. No additional fees, no RNG, no scaling, no advantage over anyone else. If anything I'd call it "pay 2 keep up" or something, because you still have to be good at the game, there's no inherent advantage of having access to Willbender if you have no skill yourself. But I don't even consider it as such as I don't really think you need the latest expansion and its e-specs.

(condi) specter is arguably the meta build for thief atm, yet I'm still solo-queueing as d/p daredevil and I'm in plat atm. I was sometimes even queueing as core condi thief and won every of those matches.
Sure Willbender and Harbinger are oppressive rn- and need to be toned down, like Scourge+FB back then, and I hope the summer balance patch corrects this without destroying something else - but you could also still play support core guard and be viable for example.
My point is it isn't mandatory to have the latest expansion and perform very well.

And while I've had some matches with like 4 Harbingers and 2 Willbenders (I even had one yesterday where someone even swapped to harbinger so the enemy team had 3 Harbingers, a Willbender and a Core Guard), a lot of matches have been fairly "normal" with a wider variety of specs.
I also had matches where we had a way better comp - on paper - (with Vindicator, Harbinger and Willbender) and we still lost to a "less-EoD-spec-heavy" comp. 

17 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

tl;dr GW2 PvP was never really competitive from the outset, but people who invested so much time into GW2 want to justify their loss.  Just accept things for what they are, dudes.  Why are so many people so vitriolic over this?  You can't say you got anything out of GW2?

GW2 - for me - has hands down the perfect combat system for a small-scale PvP RPG. That's why I'm still playing it (from time to time). I didn't really have any loss, if I had fun I played, if I didn't have fun I played something else or nothing at all.
That being said I'm really not a fan of the balance atm and I hate how slow Anet is in fixing depressingly obvious issues such as Harbinger and Willbender. But other than that I don't think your statements reflect the actual state of the game. It's horrible due to a few outlier builds, extremely low population and all those issues that stem from Anet showing basically no love to PvP. But calling it p2w is a huge stretch imho.

[anjo.6143]

11 hours ago, toxic.3648 said:

No it cannot be arguably described as P2W and here is why:

P2W means theres a direct and CONSTANT correlation between the money you put into a game and the power u get out of it.

in case of gw2 once u buy the expansion u are on the same tier as everyone else. u cant buy the expansion twice to be twice as good in pvp

 

i cant believe how many ppl keep getting this wrong.

so, u NEED to BUY the exp, right? You need to BUY.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, anjo.6143 said:

so, u NEED to BUY the exp, right? You need to BUY.

No you don’t. You can play a core profession and, if you are good enough, still roll over most people in pvp (does depend on class to an extent). 
 

Edit: just realized this may have been sarcasm, but also may have not been. Text is hard to decipher for smooth brained people like me.

Edited June 9, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Bazsi.2734]

GW2-s PvP is the literal opposite of P2W. Is this some troll initiative to gaslight us into an alternative reality?

[Philanthropist.7246]

P2W just means if you pay money you have an advantage in PvP.  That applies to GW2, it is P2W.

[Sahne.6950]

Gw2 pvp is B2P (Buy 2 Play). You have to buy the expansion to be competetive kinda.... we see this in.. idk almost every game. Games like WoW even raise the maximumlevel when a new expansion drops, same for ESO. Gw2 doesnt have this. You get the new professions, and YES i would say that they completly outshine older specs.... but that is FAR from p2w. It is called Buy 2 Play.

Anyone played Archage? That thing is literal p2w. You could directly turn 100 bucks into raw stats and weapons. I have received a big chunck of money back in the day and literally put over 800€ at once into Archage.. i bought a Weapon that was completly overpowered for the state of the game back then.... i could literally fight 1v30 in  Archeage pvp... 1 Versus 30! and it was not even close! literally looking at someone funny made them flap over 100 to 0! You can NOT do this in gw2 and especially not in pvp. Your gear doesnt even matter there. gw2 pvp is actually the opposite of p2w... because even if you bought full legendary... it will not give you the slightest of advantages in pvp. Some of you guys have never played anything that is truely p2w... and it shows. When you can buy +100 Powerinfusions with Gems, and ONLY with gems... and if they could be applied indefinitly to the same gemslot, and if that would actually work inside of spvp.... THEN IT WOULD BE p2w.... if money directly nets you a advantage... that you can infinitely increase with putting more money in it... THAT WOULD BE P2W!  But that is simply not possible in gw2! You put 30 Bucks on it, so you can play Harbinger.. and this is about it... You can not get any stronger by buying more gems or EoD once again... you pay once and unlock the content. That is the literal definition of B2P.

You guys have a point tho... the new specs outshine the older ones... but using the term "PAY 2 WIN" in this context, is simply wrong.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Pengu.7481]

On 6/8/2022 at 8:12 PM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

 

 

Upgrade to win.

 

On 6/9/2022 at 2:13 AM, anjo.6143 said:

so, u NEED to BUY the exp, right? You need to BUY.

 

On 6/9/2022 at 8:39 AM, Philanthropist.7246 said:

P2W just means if you pay money you have an advantage in PvP.  That applies to GW2, it is P2W.

@Trevor Boyer.6524

guys read the word i UNDERLINED, i explained it as simple as i could. if you still dont understand why you are wrong, i cant help you

Edited June 10, 2022 by toxic.3648

[Swagg.9236]

22 hours ago, toxic.3648 said:

No it cannot be arguably described as P2W and here is why:

P2W means theres a direct and CONSTANT correlation between the money you put into a game and the power u get out of it.

in case of gw2 once u buy the expansion u are on the same tier as everyone else. u cant buy the expansion twice to be twice as good in pvp

 

i cant believe how many ppl keep getting this wrong.

Ok, but again, you have to buy in to compete.  Guild Wars 1 was B2P because there was no F2P version of the game.  GW2 certainly does have tiers of investment.  The true whales get hooked by the gem store, but are you really going to argue that GW2 F2P options are going to collectively compete in with somebody who bought into all the expansions (in any mode)?

Again, this is mostly a question of why people feel so motivated to defend PvP skill continuity in a game with PvP so utterly defined by meta-overwriting patch notes and expansion drops.  Seriously, why?  It's ok to be honest about the time you put into GW2 (PvP); it's just not healthy to pretend that it's something more than it truly is--that is, unless you really want to take a 2014 sword-dagger/shortbow core thief build into a season and rely on that well-honed continuity of meta skill progression that is supposed to defy how 5 other classes are currently just "2014 thief but better" now due to patch notes.

[Sahne.6950]

17 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Ok, but again, you have to buy in to compete.  Guild Wars 1 was B2P because there was no F2P version of the game.  GW2 certainly does have tiers of investment.  The true whales get hooked by the gem store, but are you really going to argue that GW2 F2P options are going to collectively compete in with somebody who bought into all the expansions (in any mode)?

Again, this is mostly a question of why people feel so motivated to defend PvP skill continuity in a game with PvP so utterly defined by meta-overwriting patch notes and expansion drops.  Seriously, why?  It's ok to be honest about the time you put into GW2 (PvP); it's just not healthy to pretend that it's something more than it truly is--that is, unless you really want to take a 2014 sword-dagger/shortbow core thief build into a season and rely on that well-honed continuity of meta skill progression that is supposed to defy how 5 other classes are currently just "2014 thief but better" now due to patch notes.

okey... you are saying gw1 is B2P... but gw2 is not B2P because it has a free-to-play option....

okey... according to you logic.... Gw2 became p2w... the second it became f2p?  did i get you right there?

1) p2w means that you can pay infinite ammounts of money to gain infinite ammounts of benefits.

2) B2P means that they demand money from you to access all the content.

which one of the two is gw2?   

The new specs from EoD are stronger than the previous specs....  that is kitten blance... but not p2w! the TERM used is simply wrong. The message is the same. pay 30 bucks to win! and that is EXACTLY what we are seeing. NEVERTHELESS! this is B2P with kitten balancing. Gw2 is FAAAAAAR from being p2w.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Pengu.7481]

39 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Ok, but again, you have to buy in to compete.  Guild Wars 1 was B2P because there was no F2P version of the game.  GW2 certainly does have tiers of investment.  The true whales get hooked by the gem store, but are you really going to argue that GW2 F2P options are going to collectively compete in with somebody who bought into all the expansions (in any mode)?

Again, this is mostly a question of why people feel so motivated to defend PvP skill continuity in a game with PvP so utterly defined by meta-overwriting patch notes and expansion drops.  Seriously, why?  It's ok to be honest about the time you put into GW2 (PvP); it's just not healthy to pretend that it's something more than it truly is--that is, unless you really want to take a 2014 sword-dagger/shortbow core thief build into a season and rely on that well-honed continuity of meta skill progression that is supposed to defy how 5 other classes are currently just "2014 thief but better" now due to patch notes.

only point im arguing here is that u are wrong about it being P2W. its B2P and if u dont want to do that then play core instead. u can still be more than competetive with core guard/necro/ranger and roll over most fotm players since they play the spec because its broken, not because they are good. individual player skill matters.

as for the time ive put into the game, i play it for fun. if i dont have fun, i dont play it.

[Swagg.9236]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:38 PM, toxic.3648 said:

only point im arguing here is that u are wrong about it being P2W. its B2P and if u dont want to do that then play core instead. u can still be more than competetive with core guard/necro/ranger and roll over most fotm players since they play the spec because its broken, not because they are good. individual player skill matters.

as for the time ive put into the game, i play it for fun. if i dont have fun, i dont play it.

Then what are people even playing when they play the F2P/core version? 

[Swagg.9236]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:05 PM, Sahne.6950 said:

okey... you are saying gw1 is B2P... but gw2 is not B2P because it has a free-to-play option....

okey... according to you logic.... Gw2 became p2w... the second it became f2p?  did i get you right there?

1) p2w means that you can pay infinite ammounts of money to gain infinite ammounts of benefits.

2) B2P means that they demand money from you to access all the content.

which one of the two is gw2?   

The new specs from EoD are stronger than the previous specs....  that is kitten blance... but not p2w! the TERM used is simply wrong. The message is the same. pay 30 bucks to win! and that is EXACTLY what we are seeing. NEVERTHELESS! this is B2P with kitten balancing. Gw2 is FAAAAAAR from being p2w.

I'm saying that there are options that anyone can use regardless of monetary investment, and then there is the reality that nobody in PvP or end-game PvE is going to appreciate or invite your participation if you aren't using the builds which are locked behind monetary investment.  Or is that wrong with another helping of random capital letters?

Edited June 10, 2022 by Swagg.9236

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 6/8/2022 at 9:04 AM, toxic.3648 said:

No it cannot be arguably described as P2W and here is why:

P2W means theres a direct and CONSTANT correlation between the money you put into a game and the power u get out of it.

in case of gw2 once u buy the expansion u are on the same tier as everyone else. u cant buy the expansion twice to be twice as good in pvp

 

i cant believe how many ppl keep getting this wrong.

Somehow you miss his point even after stating the point yourself in your own words.

Obviously what he was saying is that "if you don't buy the expansions, you don't have access to the current most powerful builds". Thus if you want to be competitive you must buy expansions. This is a form of p2w.

No need to logical fallacy and act like you didn't understand what he meant in the OP post.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 6/9/2022 at 8:39 AM, Philanthropist.7246 said:

P2W just means if you pay money you have an advantage in PvP.  That applies to GW2, it is P2W.

Oh yes, if you redefine P2W to mean that, then yes of course it is an advantage. For anyone else P2W means more money spent=more power. In the form of stronger gear, boosters, skipping timegates etc.

I hereby re-define dumb to mean "smart, handsome and clever" and I'll have you know I'm very very dumb.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Bladestrom.6425]

for OP. your root problem is that new builds are slow to be balanced to bring into line with all other builds, that's not Pay to Win that's slow development lifecycles and a cross cutting concern that impacts all mmorpg regardless of payment model.  We know this to be true because over time we have historically seen in GW2 that the builds balance over time.  

 I would refer to an  expansion as buy-to-expand.  Expansions means additional build permutations and choice that takes time to balance, that's the reality of it, we as players WANT expansions to offer greater choice and permutations. 

On a different note I have 0 -play time with catalyst ele even though i have and enjoy the expansion, so theoretically I must be at a huge disadvantage, but in SPVP and WVW I continue to play with my older builds competitively. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by vesica tempestas.1563

[Sahne.6950]

On 6/10/2022 at 6:06 PM, Swagg.9236 said:

I'm saying that there are options that anyone can use regardless of monetary investment, and then there is the reality that nobody in PvP or end-game PvE is going to appreciate or invite your participation if you aren't using the builds which are locked behind monetary investment.  Or is that wrong with another helping of random capital letters?

yeah.... you have to buy to play all the content.  That is buy 2 play by definition...

When you can get permanent stat boosts for reallife money.. then we can talk about pay 2 win. You guys seriously argue over a term?

YES you win in pvp when you pay the 30 bucks to buy EoD. YES you are gaining power with reallife money here. But that is b2p with kitten balancing. p2w is something completly diffrent. The message is still the same... pay 30 bucks = win! Simply the term used is wrong. its just completly dumb that the new 30 bucks specs dominate.... but that is far from p2w.

Some of you guys have not played a true p2w game and it shows.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[DoomNexus.5324]

On 6/10/2022 at 6:04 PM, Swagg.9236 said:

Then what are people even playing when they play the F2P/core version? 

Support Guardian Build (PvP) - Hardstuck
Power Shatter Build (PvP) - Hardstuck
Core Necromancer Build (PvP) - Hardstuck
Core Ranger Build (PvP) - Hardstuck
I've tried running condi pistol thief (without offhand) and worked also pretty well too.

Those are just some builds I found links to on hardstuck. A lot of streamers on twitch link a couple builds (I can't promise everybody offers a core build tho), metabattle, etc also have some. Or just talk to some people in pvp if you can't come up with a good one. Just because it's not linked somewhere doesn't mean you can't perform well with it either.

A couple years ago I've been playing a p/p deadeye build people considered to be unviable. It was nowhere near considered meta or good, not even viable. In fact, people - who had no idea - thought it was so bad that it sometimes happened that one mate flat out threw the game once they noticed my build (even if we were already clearly in the lead and could've easily won).
I was in the top100 during that season btw.

It really comes down to understanding conquest in general as well as your own role, your team mate's roles, game knowledge in general and of course your mechanical skill.

Edited June 13, 2022 by DoomNexus.5324

[SlayerXX.7138]

Did you know if you want to play football you have to pay for a Ball. Only conclusion: football is pay to win!
A Gaming mouse with extra buttons does Make any MMO(or any game with many skills) easier to play. So by the definition proposed in this threat every game that has 10+ Abilities is pay to win. No exceptions.