New Meta being ruined

[Fwog.9387]

For what its worth. If i had to play a bunch of AB's in a row before i could get loot. Even if the loot was the same i would probably still pass the vast majority of the time because i have to commit more time all at once to do it. So even if dragon's end matched AB it probably still wouldn't be worth the time investment. I think they should just do what dragon stand does and reward you here and there based on participation and give a good bonus at the end to the people for sticking with it.

This doesn't fix any issues with fishing, but that is a separate can of worms caused by small maps and ultimately player choice. People have the right to play the game how they want to. And the fishing mechanics as they are don't incentivize being a good Samaritan. 

[Labjax.2465]

2 minutes ago, Jaricko.6143 said:

For what its worth. If i had to play a bunch of AB's in a row before i could get loot. Even if the loot was the same i would probably still pass the vast majority of the time because i have to commit more time all at once to do it. So even if dragon's end matched AB it probably still wouldn't be worth the time investment. I think they should just do what dragon stand does and reward you here and there based on participation and give a good bonus at the end to the people for sticking with it.

This doesn't fix any issues with fishing, but that is a separate can of worms caused by small maps and ultimately player choice. People have the right to play the game how they want to. And the fishing mechanics as they are don't incentivize being a good Samaritan. 

Brainstorming here... what if they did a mechanic that goes something like: if you're fishing (got fishing pole out or got fishing stacks) and are on a meta-in-progress map that's full, it gives you some prompt like... would you like to go to another instance and gives you a refresh on fishing stacks if you take it. Idk if that's enough for the fishers to get them to move, but yeah.

[Emberfoot.6847]

1 minute ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Brainstorming here... what if they did a mechanic that goes something like: if you're fishing (got fishing pole out or got fishing stacks) and are on a meta-in-progress map that's full, it gives you some prompt like... would you like to go to another instance and gives you a refresh on fishing stacks if you take it. Idk if that's enough for the fishers to get them to move, but yeah.

Or just add a few extra stacks of fishing power to the map change buff, so you slightly gain by doing it.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Emberfoot.6847 said:

Or just add a few extra stacks of fishing power to the map change buff, so you slightly gain by doing it.

Yeah, that sounds even better.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Brainstorming here... what if they did a mechanic that goes something like: if you're fishing (got fishing pole out or got fishing stacks) and are on a meta-in-progress map that's full, it gives you some prompt like... would you like to go to another instance and gives you a refresh on fishing stacks if you take it. Idk if that's enough for the fishers to get them to move, but yeah.

I have a better solution. Maybe the event should just scale to the number of players actually doing it, instead of assuming everyone on the map does.

There will always be uninvolved players on the map. The solution is not to try to get rid of them, but to acknowledge that fact when designing events.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I have a better solution. Maybe the event should just scale to the number of players actually doing it, instead of assuming everyone on the map does.

There will always be uninvolved players on the map. The solution is not to try to get rid of them, but to acknowledge that fact when designing events.

Fair point, though I do think there's a factor not being accounted for there, which is the problem of people who want to do an event being excluded (randoms, guildies, etc.) because slots are being occupied by people who aren't doing it. But admittedly, that is kind of its own can of worms, more generally, and ties into issues with taxiing and so on.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Fair point, though I do think there's a factor not being accounted for there, which is the problem of people who want to do an event being excluded (randoms, guildies, etc.) because slots are being occupied by people who aren't doing it. But admittedly, that is kind of its own can of worms, more generally, and ties into issues with taxiing and so on.

Again, the solution is to not assume full map capacity for the event. The rest is just a byproduct of map caps being too low to admit enough players. And honestly, for the player in question it doesn't really matter if "his" spot is being taken by a fisher, or by someone that actually also is interested in the event. They still won't be able to join anyway. 

If the event design was different, those players would at least have a chance of organizing something on their instance. In case of Gerent or AB it often works (i have seen initially empty maps being organized this way with less than 5 minutes left to the event, and seen those maps succeed on reliable basis). In case of DE, ad-hoc last minute squads having a really low chance of succeeding, coupled with low player interest means that if you don't get in that one succesful squad, you have next to no chance of doing the meta this time around. Fishers or no fishers. 

The solution is never to create workarounds for bad design. The solution is always to fix the original design that is a problem.

[Hotride.2187]

7 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

If you have enough dps, you never get tails. So could be RNG or simply that.

We got a tail on 80% to 60% (3-4 platform spins too) and 20% to 0%, and we were (unsurprisingly) the same group. So... we definitely got massive luck.

[Hotride.2187]

6 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

No one should be told to leave a map for someone else. It is the squad's problem, not yours, that someone can't get onto the same instance.

It is actually a game problem but whatever at this point (I don't need the meta for anything now).

On one of my attempts after release I had to try to join a map for 15+ min, right-click, try to join, right-click try to join, like a moron. Not even in an abandoned mode like wvw do you have to do this nonsense. And the squad tried to force a new map too, going all in at the same time from echovald.

You have to be a major fanboi to look at this and go "yeah its fine".

Edited June 24, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Labjax.2465]

21 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Again, the solution is to not assume full map capacity for the event. The rest is just a byproduct of map caps being too low to admit enough players. And honestly, for the player in question it doesn't really matter if "his" spot is being taken by a fisher, or by someone that actually also is interested in the event. They still won't be able to join anyway. 

If the event design was different, those players would at least have a chance of organizing something on their instance. In case of Gerent or AB it often works (i have seen initially empty maps being organized this way with less than 5 minutes left to the event, and seen those maps succeed on reliable basis). In case of DE, ad-hoc last minute squads having a really low chance of succeeding, coupled with low player interest means that if you don't get in that one succesful squad, you have next to no chance of doing the meta this time around. Fishers or no fishers. 

The solution is never to create workarounds for bad design. The solution is always to fix the original design that is a problem.

It would not eliminate that problem yes, but it could alleviate some tension between players with different interests on the same map, which is a healthy thing for the game. Scaling could help too, but since we're poking holes in proposed solutions, I'm not sure how realistic it is to adjust scaling accurately on the fly and make sure it's not including players like fishers. Like I can imagine a situation where the fishing spot is physically too close and makes it difficult to judge properly on a mechanic level who should be scaled for and who not.

I do agree that DE specifically needs ad-hoc to be more realistic.

[Tukaram.8256]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Fair point, though I do think there's a factor not being accounted for there, which is the problem of people who want to do an event being excluded (randoms, guildies, etc.) because slots are being occupied by people who aren't doing it. But admittedly, that is kind of its own can of worms, more generally, and ties into issues with taxiing and so on.

I think the map/event was just designed incorrectly from the beginning. If I am fishing... I should not be taking a slot in an event that I am not doing.  I rarely get involved in any event, but on other maps it has never been a problem. How do events scale on other maps, but they cannot do it on this map? 

[Baseleader.4128]

25 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

How do events scale on other maps, but they cannot do it on this map? 

Think it just has to do with the difficulty of this event where it is more important everyone joins up. I think quite a few of the other meta events dont scale either. I dont think Auric Basin meta scales for instance.

[Dante.1508]

18 hours ago, vanfrano.1325 said:

Not only the drops are bad but even the way we loot all the chests at the end of Soo Won is not enjoyable, the whole EoD experience is very unenjoyable. Sadly it seems to have had a negative effect on the whole game as I never got that many map change prompts pretty much everywhere.

I don't care if Soo Wan dropped 100g loot there is no way i'm going to go through that meta (or kaineng) over and over again.. Thats soul destroying bordem..  No amount of money makes me do unfun things.

[Astralporing.1957]

44 minutes ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

Think it just has to do with the difficulty of this event where it is more important everyone joins up. I think quite a few of the other meta events dont scale either. I dont think Auric Basin meta scales for instance.

Some things do not scale (like stacks needed to make vines damageable). Some do (you can easily burn down the vine in one attempt with just 2-3 players per side, and the amount of trash mobs you get also scales with how many players are present). I have done AB with like 5 players per side more than once, and it worked quite well. The difference is, of course, that with fewer players present they all have to play their part, because there's far less leeway for afkers and people failing mechanics.

[Gorem.8104]

6 hours ago, Emberfoot.6847 said:

I personally am not here to argue total overall values but just to make 1 reminder. AB meta takes like 10mins then you get loot. SooWon takes (as far as my experience goes) about an hour minimum. If you have limited time to play or a dodgy Internet connection, you may well still be better to do AB as the loot as you go in EoD is poor, with the main rewards being only on success at the very end.

Exactly this, recently started full time work, and suddenly 2 hours is about all I get in a day if I decide to more then just log in daily. None of that would ever ever be spent wasted in a Cantha area. Boring place that looks terrible with a bad story and no loot unless lucky? haha yeah right. 

[Fwog.9387]

1 hour ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

I think the map/event was just designed incorrectly from the beginning. If I am fishing... I should not be taking a slot in an event that I am not doing.  I rarely get involved in any event, but on other maps it has never been a problem. How do events scale on other maps, but they cannot do it on this map? 

There were events going on in istan and draconis when i was doing my cod swimming amongst mere minnows achievement. And you know what they did... they continued to do the meta. Me being there was not a problem at all. And the grossest part of all of this. Dragon's End was designed alongside fishing. Meaning they knew people would fish there. They knew what the map cap and scaling would be (unless they didn't play test anything... hmm) and could have avoided this problem. Fishing almost bug free on launch though. Only a rare hiccup and an item duplication bug people found that required collections to be disabled for a bit. 

[Flasterko.4087]

21 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Exactly this, recently started full time work, and suddenly 2 hours is about all I get in a day if I decide to more then just log in daily. None of that would ever ever be spent wasted in a Cantha area. Boring place that looks terrible with a bad story and no loot unless lucky? haha yeah right. 

This. It makes me sad that they probably done this meta like this to motivate people to do more strikes. Like some way of desprate move of Anet to move people from world events to instanced content. 

 

Who knows what then next move could be, if most of the people start to follow wanted gear standards for group play. Store items that will help players even more to develop character to be group ready? 

 

I hope this game will not become in next years what LOTRO is now. Their store also was once just helping quality of life stuff with little bit of buying advances. 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

On 6/19/2022 at 8:03 PM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh, and i love the "git gud" ones. The same ones that were saying "git gud" later bit their tongues and started defending the meta with "you noly need 5k dps" lmao. Well what is it, git gud or is the meta casual? Decide, then start spamming forums with conflicting posts.

later to the party but....
it's both actually.
the meta is not that that hard to begin with as it does not require to much mechanical understanding, less than even the easy strikes from IBS and only a basic understanding of boons and subgroup interaction. And pressing EMP when the com says so.
at the same time a lot of players (85% by anets own statistics) have been lulled by anets "all inclusive all the time for everyone" Philosophie to do barely WASD+1 only and vastly misunderstood and poorly explained "play what you want to play" manifesto, to be entitled to have everything as mindlessly easy as possible to have the gold medal ding at the end for instant gratification. 
They are what some would coin  as toxic casual players. they go out of their way NOT to learn the very basics of a game and then have strong negative opinions about difficulty or adversity.
I personally think a lot of people who play gw2 right now, do not want to play an MMO because they find the genre interesting or want to engage with one, but because so they can say they played one (since anet at the beginning did practically advertised gw2 as the "anti-mmo") to then justify those strong opinions I mentioned before.

Edited June 24, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[Silent.6137]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I have a better solution. Maybe the event should just scale to the number of players actually doing it, instead of assuming everyone on the map does.

There will always be uninvolved players on the map. The solution is not to try to get rid of them, but to acknowledge that fact when designing events.

 

9 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Fair point, though I do think there's a factor not being accounted for there, which is the problem of people who want to do an event being excluded (randoms, guildies, etc.) because slots are being occupied by people who aren't doing it.

 

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Again, the solution is to not assume full map capacity for the event. The rest is just a byproduct of map caps being too low to admit enough players. And honestly, for the player in question it doesn't really matter if "his" spot is being taken by a fisher, or by someone that actually also is interested in the event. They still won't be able to join anyway.

 

8 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Scaling could help too, but since we're poking holes in proposed solutions, I'm not sure how realistic it is to adjust scaling accurately on the fly and make sure it's not including players like fishers. Like I can imagine a situation where the fishing spot is physically too close and makes it difficult to judge properly on a mechanic level who should be scaled for and who not.

For the above discussion chain, the meta scale at all events according to how many is at a particular location. It does not assumed full map capacity. It does not include fishers or farmers who are not at the events.

Test it for yourself on a non-meta map if you doubt what I stated above. Fight any of the void bosses with just a few. They will be no harder than fighting with 10 players. Of course, you won't win the meta since all events has to be successful. You simply don't have enough time to rush to do all 3 lanes: fight all the adds and all the sub-bosses, do the Crystal phase which requires all 5 areas to be completed simultaneously.

And assuming you had enough to get past those and get on the platforms, even scaled down, you won't win with too few players due to the many mechanics involved.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Silent.6137

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

later to the party but....
it's both actually.
the meta is not that that hard to begin with as it does not require to much mechanical understanding, less than even the easy strikes from IBS and only a basic understanding of boons and subgroup interaction. And pressing EMP when the com says so.
at the same time a lot of players (85% by anets own statistics) have been lulled by anets "all inclusive all the time for everyone" Philosophie to do barely WASD+1 only and vastly misunderstood and poorly explained "play what you want to play" manifesto, to be entitled to have everything as mindlessly easy as possible to have the gold medal ding at the end for instant gratification. 
They are what some would coin  as toxic casual players. they go out of their way NOT to learn the very basics of a game and then have strong negative opinions about difficulty or adversity.
I personally think a lot of people who play gw2 right now, do not want to play an MMO because they find the genre interesting or want to engage with one, but because so they can say they played one (since anet at the beginning did practically advertised gw2 as the "anti-mmo") to then justify those strong opinions I mentioned before.

You aren't exactly wrong. But it's at best tangential. Players lacking skill has nothing to do with things balance issues like map caps and time required, after all.

Yes, Gw2 was indeed perceived as an anti-MMO, and yes, that's what drew people to it and made it (fairly) unique. It was designed as such on release, with a minimal emphasis on gear grind and grouping-- players can do so, but they also don't have to. Most things are scheduled for an hour or less. People can leave for years and still keep their progress intact instead of having it negated by new content completely. So if you hate this core concept this much, then well, there's other games.

I agree that people should take responsibility and get better. They should look to actively contribute to a group if they choose to take part in group content.  But so should the devs. What you're missing in all of this is that this is a two way street, and while Anet has made some tremendous steps in EoD to prepare people for harder stuff, it could do better.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

21 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I agree that people should take responsibility and get better. They should look to actively contribute to a group if they choose to take part in group content.  But so should the devs. What you're missing in all of this is that this is a two way street, and while Anet has made some tremendous steps in EoD to prepare people for harder stuff, it could do better.

10 years are enough reason to give anet in that regard the position of already having gone half way. its along enough time to understand the basics even if you are super casual.

at this moment the current player base is just to stubborn to accept they have to play the basics. and if they continue to refuse to learn I personally want them gone from gw2 to be honest. They do not play it already.
they may have the client active and are logged in, but that is comparable to having chess board in front of you and smashing your face on it aka NOT playing chess. if they refuse to engage with the game rules and mechanics, they shouldn't occupy the game board cause those who want to could make much better use of it.

[Emberfoot.6847]

29 minutes ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

10 years are enough reason to give anet in that regard the position of already having gone half way. its along enough time to understand the basics even if you are super casual.

at this moment the current player base is just to stubborn to accept they have to play the basics. and if they continue to refuse to learn I personally want them gone from gw2 to be honest. They do not play it already.
they may have the client active and are logged in, but that is comparable to having chess board in front of you and smashing your face on it aka NOT playing chess. if they refuse to engage with the game rules and mechanics, they shouldn't occupy the game board cause those who want to could make much better use of it.

That assumes that even a decent chunk of the players have been playing since launch. Even in my guild I am the only one I know of. Everybody I knew personally quit through the years too due to decisions Anet made and that people backed up with "if you don't like it, leave". So people left. Now most players are not so experienced, and people are all confused as to why they don't how to play well, and that if THEY aren't going to git gud they should quit too? Like if people really want the game to die chasing off most players is a good way to start. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

10 years are enough reason to give anet in that regard the position of already having gone half way. its along enough time to understand the basics even if you are super casual.

And for the last time 10 years, Anet has decided to keep this casual fanbase, which is why so much content is focused around story and open world. That's not going to change, and if it took 10 years to arrive to this conclusion expecting anything else then that's just wishful thinking.

2 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

at this moment the current player base is just to stubborn to accept they have to play the basics. and if they continue to refuse to learn I personally want them gone from gw2 to be honest.

  I'm pretty sure if it's between you and them, you're not winning.

2 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

They do not play it already.
they may have the client active and are logged in, but that is comparable to having chess board in front of you and smashing your face on it aka NOT playing chess. if they refuse to engage with the game rules and mechanics, they shouldn't occupy the game board cause those who want to could make much better use of it.

Not playing the game to your standards =/= not playing the game. And it's great you alone don't get to decide who gets to play beyond your own groups.

Besides in pve, you already have much control over who you play with anyways. No decent group will have trouble succeeding these events or have to ever blame randoms for failure because they will be able to organize an instance.

And if you're a decent player, it's inevitable that you'll have access to these groups, so why rant about these so called face smashers anyways? I suppose Anet should really find a way to switch instances more easily.

Heck, all I had to do was bring a few friends of which only one knew the fight because I knew that as long as the map had some semblance of effort, we would be able to succeed with ease. And we did.  It doesn't take long to read what's happening on the map to know if it's worth an attempt.

  

1 hour ago, Emberfoot.6847 said:

Now most players are not so experienced, and people are all confused as to why they don't how to play well, and that if THEY aren't going to git gud they should quit too? Like if people really want the game to die chasing off most players is a good way to start. 

Well that's why EoD has tried to educate players more about mechanics. Quite a few of the events and hearts are basically advanced tutorials. Visual clutter remains an issue but that can be changed as well.

Of course, players also need to be willing to learn as well. But when faced with the issue of opportunity cost (why learn this difficult fight when I can just autoattack in a champ train instead?) is still an issue.

And this is why I bring up Teq as something that works. People have just naturally learned the fight because it's definitely worth the farm and not too hard. But it's also not completely brain dead. Yes, people are being carried through the fights because others do the mechanics, but the incentive to actually know what's going on is very high.

Edited June 25, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

27 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

And for the last time 10 years, Anet has decided to keep this casual fanbase, which is why so much content is focused around story and open world. That's not going to change, and if it took 10 years to arrive to this conclusion expecting anything else then that's just wishful thinking.

Not playing the game to your standards =/= not playing the game.

And it's great you alone don't decide who's on the game board.

and then anet made strikes more complex, they made launch suu won. they did strikes in HoT. made open world a bit more "harder" in general in new content ever since. the only thing they did wrong is having no back bone and stand to more challenging content. one that requires the mere basics of the combats system to be known and not just WASD+1 through the game.

And its not "my" standards. first is barely high enough to be considered standing as it is just the skill floor.
and that skill floor is the combat/movement/combo field/boon/squad UI system. Im not asking for them to beat Dhuum CM in 3 hours, to break through the skill ceiling. aka beat the best chess masteres of the last 5 years.
I ask them to lay down ON the skill floor not beneath it, to know that the springer moves 2forward 1side and the rook to only move up down left right. that they need to roll the dice in "Man, Don't Get Angry"  to move their pieces forward. 

and I wish i was deciding that. because i could give them a blank board of wood instead which they would be happy with to smash with and allow others to use the chess board for chess.
i seriously do not support this entitlement to be part of something if you outright refuse to engage with it even in the smallest possible way and be a selfish richard about it.

Edited June 25, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

1 hour ago, Emberfoot.6847 said:

That assumes that even a decent chunk of the players have been playing since launch. Even in my guild I am the only one I know of. Everybody I knew personally quit through the years too due to decisions Anet made and that people backed up with "if you don't like it, leave". So people left. Now most players are not so experienced, and people are all confused as to why they don't how to play well, and that if THEY aren't going to git gud they should quit too? Like if people really want the game to die chasing off most players is a good way to start. 

i have seen new players learn in less then a half hour about the most basics things. i myself have been providing that knowledge over map chat no less in LA. it really doesn't take long to get the basics. so 10 years is to generous already. a week would be enough to know better.
And the thing is those who want to learn? where did i say they should go? I WELCOME THEM WITH OPEN ARMS, as they are critically thinking enough to question their performance in a team effort. That alone puts players in the top 15% of player.

i talk about people refusing to learn. when people are told that their "condi" build does not really work well if they take soldiers gear and non condi traits/-lines only then to Reeeee in entitlement "don't tell my how to play i play what i want" after they complained how they can not beat Big Nose Ted or a lvl 7 crab. those need to either suck it up and learn or play a different game.

Edited June 25, 2022 by ShroomOneUp.6913