Please release the numbers that show that Gandara is the most populated server on EU right now

[Karagee.6830]

 

57 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Those match K+D numbers are available via the API and don't require players to have signed up.

I already posted on the other thread why cherry-picking the K+D datapoint is not a good metric to infer population from when used in isolation.  Anet has told us in past forum posts that they found the most accurate measurement of population is playhours and have used WXP gain as a sanity check for playhours.  Anyone can peruse the old posts linked in the pinned "WvW Library" thread or use Google to verify.

Also, the most recent API data on Gandara is going to be infected by their tanking and rendered somewhat useless.  The Full status is also a variable since we don't know when or by what amount the threshold changes.

You can't understand that 1 kill, + for 1 team and - for another team, is the clearest indication of participation and activity in a (mostly) pvp game!? You see how the problem here is not K+D right?

How many people do you see parked for 20 minutes at spawn (where they can't be killed) on your server? Repairing doesn't give participation, using siege doesn't give participation and on and on and on. So as you (or your party giving you participation) need to go out and cap stuff or kill players...

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Strider Pj.2193]

6 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

 

You can't understand that 1 kill, + for 1 team and - for another team, is the clearest indication of participation and activity in a (mostly) pvp game!? You see how the problem here is not K+D right?

How many people do you see parked for 20 minutes at spawn (where they can't be killed) on your server? Repairing doesn't give participation, using siege doesn't give participation and on and on and on. So as you (or your party giving you participation) need to go out and cap stuff or kill players...

You do understand that 4 people getting a hit on one player that died is 4 kills and one death right?  
 

And that no death is counted against a server more than once?

Edited June 21, 2022 by Strider Pj.2193

[Voltekka.2375]

Out of curiosity, what is Gandara?

[Karagee.6830]

13 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

You do understand that 4 people getting a hit on one player that does is 4 kills and one death right?  
 

And that no death is counted against a server more than once?

That is not how it works. Current T1 numbers are 62746 kills and 65287 deaths. Deaths counted are also from NPCs or the environment (fall damage would be the most common) and in fact the discrepancy is smaller (2%) in EBG where these are less frequent.

In any case, even the simple fact that deaths are higher than kills surely invalidates every single word you have written in your comment, does it not? Otherwise good luck to you sir: in reconciling your strange ideas with the hard cold numbers, you'll need plenty.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

5 minutes ago, Voltekka.2375 said:

Out of curiosity, what is Gandara?

It's Joko's fortress. Move on, nothing to see here, friend.

[Mabi black.1824]

21 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

You do understand that 4 people getting a hit on one player that died is 4 kills and one death right?  
 

And that no death is counted against a server more than once?

I would not be so sure of this, I believe that in that case 1 kill is counted on one side and 1 dead on the other. if we count as you suggest we are completely out of the way.

that is, a complete blob of 70 players who kills two poor lone enemies sitting in the middle of the meadow collecting daisies, should count as 140 kills ? and on the other side only 2 dead? I can't believe it.

[Dawdler.8521]

52 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

The K+D data comes from Anet's API, I don't give a rat's kitten about GW2 Mists player numbers, they are interesting, but that was not what I was criticising you for. What I asked you plain and simple was to compare K+D numbers for Gandara to that of linked servers. Since Gandara is usually around 45k (and typically in the bottom 2-3 among all 15 teams at that) and the top linked servers are around 85k what do you deduce from K+D numbers?

I didnt deduce nor had any intention of counting K+D numbers for Gandara. I just said it was better than GW2mists/effiecency. I only quickly looked at DBL for Gandara because I found it amusing that they roflstomp the other servers there yet is doing to quote myself "not so much" on the other borders. Even more amusing considering the complaints of DBL on the forums. But you seem to have gotten hung up on that mention with the perception of what, that I thought Gandara is full population with highest K+D, lol?. 

I dont dispute your numbers at all.

For those arguing how the kills count, we dont really see extremes in practice when the week is over and all borders averaged. Most KDR at the end of a matchup is around 1. 0.8 low and 1.2 high would still be considered "normal" in an equal matchup among similar sized worlds, wouldnt it (when the K+D are also equal)?

Edited June 21, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Of course, it's not *exact* - you'd have to consider the overall matchup and the other servers

That's why I called their use of the K+D data cherry-picked and isolated.  They don't seem to be considering other data that enlarge and refine the picture nor are they recognizing that linking large chunks of population (servers) can result in wide disparities in population as a regular drawback of the current system and that Gandara isn't the first, nor will it be the last, server to have this experience.  Anet has even told us they literally can't get all teams close in population to each other!

Edited June 21, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Karagee.6830]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I didnt deduce nor had any intention of counting K+D numbers for Gandara. I just said it was better than GW2mists/effiecency. I only quickly looked at DBL for Gandara because I found it amusing that they roflstomp the other servers there yet is doing to quote myself "not so much" on the other borders. Even more amusing considering the complaints of DBL on the forums. But you seem to have gotten hung up on that mention with the perception of what, that I thought Gandara is full population with highest K+D, lol?. 

I dont dispute your numbers at all.

For those arguing how the kills count, we dont really see extremes in practice when the week is over and all borders averaged. Most KDR at the end of a matchup is around 1. 0.8 low and 1.2 high would still be considered "normal" in an equal matchup among similar sized worlds, wouldnt it (when the K+D are also equal)?

You said the K+D was similar to FSP+GH (my deduction) because you seem to be SM/EBG huggers. It happens when you are vastly outnumbering both opponents: they attack each other and stay away from the leading team home border, even more if that's the desert map. The issue is that you have 2.5x the overall K+D that Gandara has when counting all the maps.

[Zyreva.1078]

5 hours ago, Arky.3072 said:

These are the numbers you asked for, clearly reflecting the fact that Gandara was playing before, hasn't been playing during the past 3-ish weeks, and are stuck in a tier 5 limbo without any chance of getting opened no matter the player activity. 

So you are basically complaining that your attempt at exploiting the system isn't working as you want. So what is anet supposed to do now - make it easier to exploit?

Btw when checking "World Ranking" on that site you linked, and using K+D/match as rough indicator of activity - then gandara is actually the second most active unlinked server (after BB). Now i'm aware that K+D might not always be an accurate measurement of overall population, but there is certainly some correlation. So it would make sense that the presumably second most populated server is also the one to be unlinked the second most and BB not being full seems to be the only questionable thing.

Edited June 21, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Karagee.6830]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I would not be so sure of this, I believe that in that case 1 kill is counted on one side and 1 dead on the other. if we count as you suggest we are completely out of the way.

that is, a complete blob of 70 players who kills two poor lone enemies sitting in the middle of the meadow collecting daisies, should count as 140 kills ? and on the other side only 2 dead? I can't believe it.

We can double check how the API works in detail if the information was provided, but since deaths are always higher than kills it makes sense that it's counted as scoring points (ie. 1 kill = 1 point for whichever team kills the player, even though this may not be added if he/she has the outnumbered buff...). So at best you will have 2 kills for 1 death when you have players from all teams involved.

[Karagee.6830]

18 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So you are basically complaining that your attempt at exploiting the system isn't working as you want. So what is anet supposed to do now - make it easier to exploit?

Btw when checking "World Ranking" on that site you linked, and using K+D/match as rough indicator of activity - then gandara is actually the second most active unlinked server (after BB). Now i'm aware that K+D might not always be an accurate measurement of overall population, but there is certainly some correlation. So it would make sense that the presumably second most populated server is also the one to be unlinked the second most and BB not being full seems to be the only questionable thing.

lol you do understand that only 3 servers (of 27) are unlinked right? And that my point is that either those 3 should all be open (like BB always is) or they should rotate? Servers that are unlinked have a physiological drop in population because people can't bear to play outnumbered for 2 months so they either not play or they play on alt accounts. See if you can explain how Desolation went from 40k K+D with no link to 83k with a link in a week.

Linked servers have 2x and sometimes more than 2x the K+D than Gandara has (not now, now that we are tanking it's 3.5x+). Now think about it: when 2 servers together have 2x+ the K+D than a single opponent, how can they both mathematically have lower participation than the opponent? Enlighten me.

Btw this is no exploiting the system. This is exactly what all the servers that are unlinked do, other than Gandara, because we stick to our server unlike others where people transfer or play on alt accounts. All we ask Anet is: you hate and wanna keep us unlinked forever? Fine, do that, but at least you owe us the courtesy of keeping us open like you do with Baruch Bay.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Dawdler.8521]

40 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

You said the K+D was similar to FSP+GH (my deduction) because you seem to be SM/EBG huggers

I said:

Funny enough Gandara has almost as many kills on DBL as my full+full link, but the other borders... not so much.

But you apparently read that as whatever you want to read.

[Zyreva.1078]

3 minutes ago, Karagee.6830 said:

lol you do understand that there are 3 servers that are unlinked right? Or that little detail flew right over your head and that linked servers have 2x and sometimes more than 2x the K+D than Gandara has? Explain this: when 2 servers have 2x+ the K+D than Gandara has, how can they mathematically both have lower participation than Gandara? Enlighten me.

That site shows all servers that have been unlinked during the past 69 weeks (as well as all link combinations). So that makes 7 servers that have been unlinked if i didn't miss some. It is also the "activity" averaged out over a longer period of time. This doesn't mean a server can't be above or below that at times. But it doesn't make sense to determine a server's population based on a single snapshot anyway, due to how volatile player activity can be (as gandara beautifully displays currently).

So yes, it is likely that some worlds temporarily have a higher population than gandara, mostly due to transfers. Also as i said, K+D might be indicative of activity, but not very accurate, because it also depends on enemy worlds/matchups as well as PPT/PPK relation. Especially if you look at a very small sample size (eg. a single match) and insignificant disparities.

(Btw according to said website the average k+d of gandara is just above 50% of the most "active" EU pair that existed during that period of time.)

[Valdel.7325]

42 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So you are basically complaining that your attempt at exploiting the system isn't working as you want. So what is anet supposed to do now - make it easier to exploit?

For some it's a protest, for some it's to test the algorithim, for some it's an attempt to get guild members from other games into the game. We have people from New World, Lost Ark and ESO we can't get in due to being full. For some they are just tired and fed up of playing endlessly outnumbered, with no visible understanding of why us? when we are never queued, bar probably one BL at reset. Lot of stats I don't quite understand, but if you play everyday and through the day and some evenings, your eyes don't lie. If ANET are being petty because of the withdrawal of people from WvW for numerous reasons and keeping it locked then it will be possibly one of the most anti-player decisions a Game Company have made. They are so lucky that we have a community that sticks together and isn't torn apart, even though you just want to get away from the pointlessness of being on Gandara in T5

 

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

 

You can't understand that 1 kill, + for 1 team and - for another team, is the clearest indication of participation and activity in a (mostly) pvp game!? You see how the problem here is not K+D right?

How many people do you see parked for 20 minutes at spawn (where they can't be killed) on your server? Repairing doesn't give participation, using siege doesn't give participation and on and on and on. So as you (or your party giving you participation) need to go out and cap stuff or kill players...

And how do you know that's how the API counts kills?  What happens to a kill when there's an assist from a 2nd server?  Why does the API end up showing different numbers than what in-game shows?  And why do you keep representing that data as anything other than total PvP activity on combined teams such as individual server population when that information can't be teased out from API?  How do you know who plays on your server after you log out and how they are playing?  Of course they're not going to have a big influence on activity level, but they certainly add playhours to a server's rolling average.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Karagee.6830]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

That site shows all servers that have been unlinked during the past 69 weeks (as well as all link combinations). So that makes 7 servers that have been unlinked if i didn't miss some. It is also the "activity" averaged out over a longer period of time. This doesn't mean a server can't be above or below that at times. But it doesn't make sense to determine a server's population based on a single snapshot anyway, due to how volatile player activity can be (as gandara beautifully displays currently).

So yes, it is likely that some worlds temporarily have a higher population than gandara, mostly due to transfers. Also as i said, K+D might be indicative of activity, but not very accurate, because it also depends on enemy worlds/matchups as well as PPT/PPK relation. Especially if you look at a very small sample size (eg. a single match) and insignificant disparities.

(Btw according to said website the average k+d of gandara is just above 50% of the most "active" EU pair that existed during that period of time.)

What's the likelyhood that the pairs with 85k K+D are both below 45k?

 

Baruch Bay has 1/3 more players and activity than Gandara and it's not full, so why not treat us the same way? Any logical explanation? I said I'd be ok with being permanently open, like BB, and never having a link, like BB.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

39 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

And how do you know that's how the API counts kills?  What happens to a kill when there's an assist from a 2nd server?  Why does the API end up showing different numbers than what in-game shows?  And why do you keep representing that data as anything other than total PvP activity on combined teams such as individual server population when that information can't be teased out from API?  How do you know who plays on your server after you log out and how they are playing?  Of course they're not going to have a big influence on activity level, but they certainly add playhours to a server's rolling average.

Oh boy. At the times I don't play our score is in the gutter. You really want to check the scores and participation for Gandara, in T5, in the morning and early afternoon? Be my guest. I occasionally have played at those times: we have very few people, so it's not like we have a surge which is dwarfed by an even bigger surge by every other server.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Karagee.6830]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I said:

Funny enough Gandara has almost as many kills on DBL as my full+full link, but the other borders... not so much.

But you apparently read that as whatever you want to read.

I read it like any normal person would: oh look Gandara has a similar participation on red border as my stacked team. 'The other maps not so much' is also playing down the difference which is massive in every single one of them. Maybe that was not your intention but it's how it reads.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Leaa.2943]

21 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

I just want some Anet figurehead or placeholder to lie to me, so I can be at peace that they will never be honest about it or confirm they live in denial.

Would be nice if they actually came and played with us for a week and i dont meant to zerg or blob, not that we have that but to really play all parts of wvw and see how much extra effort we have to put in to make sure our comunity do not break .It is exhausting and i would like for them to feel it too. 

So Arena Net me and friends are running on homeborder every day to look after it and kill whats there always outnumbered in fights. Come and join us and do the things we do and see for your self how exhausting it is to fight 4 servers at the same time with only us. We are all very friendly and dedicated players so plaese take the chance and run with us and see for your self why we are exhausted and why we say your tools are wrong. I can tell you that you will feel the same way after a week.

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

What's the likelyhood that the pairs with 85k K+D are both below 45k?

Depends on whether those two linked servers have a similar population or not. But why does it even matter?

I already said multiple times that some servers very likely have higher population than gandara at times. Emphasis on "at times". At other times those servers might have much lower population, while gandara appears to be more stable. Take SFR for example - they are likely one of the highest, if not THE highest populated/active server right now. Yet whenever SFR has been unlinked, they have consistently been weaker than gandara without link.

Quote

 

Baruch Bay has 1/3 more players and activity than Gandara and it's not full, so why not treat us the same way? Any logical explanation? I said I'd be ok with being permanently open, like BB, and never having a link, like BB.

I don't know why BB is treated specially, but it might be because a) there is no alternative for players who want to play on a spanish server and b) maybe also because the server doesn't seem to be very attractive for bandwagoners, so the likelyhood of BB getting mega stacked is lower than for some others. Tho it would be an interesting experiment if all the bandwagoners decide to join BB to see what happens and if that server could be pushed to full status.

Is special treatment for one world fair? No, i don't think so, but still - the correct move would be to lock BB, not to unlock other servers above the "full" threshold. But since BB being open doesn't really cause any balance issues right now (except of the perceived unfairness), is it really neccessary to screw over another server?

 

1 hour ago, Karagee.6830 said:

Oh boy. When I don't play our score is in the gutter. You really want to check the scores and parricipation for Gandara, in T5, in the morning and early afternoon? Be my guest. I occasionally have played at those times: we have next to nobody.

Being outnumbered at certain times - especially outside of primetime - is not uncommon and completely different from being "outnumbered always and everywhere". And right now Gandara is winning their skirmishes, so i guess players are back from vacation and you aren't actually always outnumbered anymore?

Generally population disparities are lower than what they used to be pre world linking. You know, back when gandara was a healthy "gold" server while some bronze tier servers had the "pleasure" to experience population differences that gandarans wouldn't even dream of in their worst nightmares. We are talking about the winning side having up to 10x the total score of the losing server - several weeks in a row. Go figure. Nowadays we rarely see double the warscore for one side over another and even that usually only happens after relinking when matchups are messed up.

Edit: I found even more extreme cases - like a server not even getting above 20k score total - within an entire week (with the winning server having 500k+). That's less than 1/10 of gandaras score right now, and the current matchup isn't even over (I know i know, the score isn't compareable1:1, but still)

Edited June 21, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Chaba.5410]

10 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I don't know why BB is treated specially, but it might be because a) there is no alternative for players who want to play on a spanish server and b) maybe also because the server doesn't seem to be very attractive for bandwagoners, so the likelyhood of BB getting mega stacked is lower than for some others.

You would probably not be far off:

"For example, there is only one Spanish world, so they’ll never be linked and thus might never be competitive in tier 1 worlds. Similarly making each set of German worlds have equivalent populations has proved equally impossible because if we were to link them they would have a much higher population than other worlds, making match-ups against them not competitive."

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/World-Linking-8-26-2016/page/4#post6308545

[Zyreva.1078]

26 minutes ago, Leaa.2943 said:

So Arena Net me and friends are running on homeborder every day to look after it and kill whats there always outnumbered outnumbering in fights.

Fixed. Atleast according to my own experience when facing gandara and roaming on your home border. Let's hope anet didn't make the same experience 😛

[Arky.3072]

Baruch Bay is the only Spanish server, hence it will never be "full". This is set manually and has been confirmed multiple times by devs. It's literally the only example you can't compare with 'cause it will never be closed, so comparison is irrelevant.

[Burial.1958]

15 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

You would probably not be far off:

"For example, there is only one Spanish world, so they’ll never be linked and thus might never be competitive in tier 1 worlds. Similarly making each set of German worlds have equivalent populations has proved equally impossible because if we were to link them they would have a much higher population than other worlds, making match-ups against them not competitive."

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/World-Linking-8-26-2016/page/4#post6308545

 

The matchups are never competitive. After relinks mass Transfers to the next bandwagon only to rofl stomp and outnumbering the enemy 3 to 1. Anet should simply listen and block the transfer  for several weeks after the relink.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Grebcol.5984