Noodle Ant.1605 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 8 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said: I doubt many people are interested in generically speaking about ele healing capabilities, probably almost nobody uses core ele to heal, and hqCata is still very niche (but yeah that could use some improvements for condi management). Since the biggest change is coming for tempest I'd like to refer to that . Tempest barely sacrifices anything to cleanse while healing. Moving from Powerful Aura to Cleansing Water will just cut a tiny bit of heals on auras, since most auras will be shared baseline anyway. If you add to that the use of staff, the cleansing is INSANE, boring build, extremely boring build, but huge heals and condi cleanses. a htemp with staff that sits in water all day and can actually hit overload water without any consequence (20-25 cleanse per cast) obviously has no problems pumping out heals or cleanses. But its far more likely that covering alac will be more involved than just sitting in water, which means it cant just staff 1 its problems away and overload water unless it has a good backup plan for later down the line. so while it is definitely capable in certain contexts, i dont believe your concerns about having to run staff are valid when you probably cant even play it like that (and then my concerns about condi clear start becoming valid 🙃) 8 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said: Adding alac to staff build will make hTemp very strong. Their only way to tone it down is requiring you to overload on each attunement to break the costant healing flow. Doing this, in my opinion, will make the class feel cluncky. Alac on overloads (which I really really hope won't happen) would break both staff or d/w tactical use, transforming your strategy into a spamfest. Right now we have two cases for alacrity and quickness: You need 1 or 2 skills (always available and with fast casting) which main purpose is giving the boon Your boon output is tied to your dps rotation If they'll tie alacrity to overloads for ele, it would be like forcing another class to constantly swap weapons. Not considering we'll be locked in tedious channeling animations. I've never been a fan of alacmirage, dodge-dodge-swap-dodge-spamspamspam. Remember when dodging used to be required to avoid things and not to barely upkeep a boon or a personal buff? hTempest d/h is freedom, you can play with its combo in the order you prefer, you have access to specific tools like you'd have with some engi kits. I don't want to be forced to swap to an attunement I don't need in a specific moment only to upkeep a boon. I don't like the idea of sacrificing so much of my healing for alacrity, or sacrificing almost none (going back to a clunky and boring gameplay) as long as I accept staff. i dont see how htemp is freedom unless all it does is healing (where camping staff + overload water is overkill), it naturally wants to hit overload fire and heat sync for might and overload earth for prot (and sand squall so that people can get teleported by VG greens or something and still have plenty of boon on them). youre still technically free not to press any of these skills or provide any of these boons (including alac) if you doing think something else is more important, because no ones going to really care about 100% uptime/dps/whatever over a wipe its in times like these where your skill as a player or buildcrafter really shows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alcatraznc.3869 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Tempest has a lot of strong heal but and if you need to, you can use arcane to blast inside a waterfield. For PvE, I think this is a good change. Unless you really need some high healing, you wont be trading too much to give your party alacrity. For WvW, I dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emberheart.8426 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said: Tempest has a lot of strong heal but and if you need to, you can use arcane to blast inside a waterfield. For PvE, I think this is a good change. Unless you really need some high healing, you wont be trading too much to give your party alacrity. For WvW, I dont know. In theory that sounds nice, but in practice I think heal tempest will not be used unless there are other changes. The higher healing is the main advantage that tempest has to compete with the higher CC, barrier, stab, aegis and other mechanics that other healers bring. If you slash it down to bring alac, you basically have a heal alac with not much else going for it. Edited June 24, 2022 by Ganathar.4956 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downstate.4697 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Maybe builds shouldnt be the best supports and the best boon generator as well. Maybe tempest would be a good dps alac build. But also I dont care that much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erick Alastor.3917 Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) Dropping Elemental Bastion results in ~ -20% of your healing output. That not factoring the loss of frost aura bonus (extra -10% incoming dmg, ~30/40% uptime).Powerful Aura will probably be dropped for Soothing Mist to recover some lost healing, and that will lead to hard times upkeeping protection in a realistic scenario even going Earth (for Elemental Shielding). As Gana said, after nerfing a good heal (which in reality was truuly good only when it was 10 men), with what are we left? Let's remember what other main healers do bring: HAM: 25 Might (while sleeping) Perma Regen Perma Vigor Perma Fury Perma Protection Perma Alacrity Meh stability A lot of direct healing A lot of barrier Aegis (almost not worth mentioning) Absorb Small CC HFB: 25 Might Perma Regen Perma Fury Perma Quickness Protection Stability on demand A lot of direct healing Extra HoT with symbols Aegis (albeit quite nerfed now) Reflects on demand Strong CC hTEMP that will be forced to go Staff: Some Might Perma Regen Fury What? (Perma?) Alacrity Some Protection Good direct healing (that may be distrupted by the need to change attunements tho) Small CC Uhmmm... Edited June 24, 2022 by Erick Alastor.3917 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Nachos.7918 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 5 hours ago, Erick Alastor.3917 said: Powerful Aura will probably be dropped for Soothing Mist to recover some lost healing, and that will lead to hard times upkeeping protection in a realistic scenario even going Earth (for Elemental Shielding). You likely won't want to drop Powerful Aura since that's how heal tempest maintains fury in its subgroup. You can recover some of your lost healing outside water though with Signet of Water and Wash the Pain away. You would also likely not want to take staff unless your group really needs giga healing. With Sc/Wh or dg/Wh you will be able to provide 25 might, perma regen, perma fury, perma alacrity, perma fury, perma vigor and rebound allows for some special strats on some raid bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erick Alastor.3917 Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Crazy Nachos.7918 said: You likely won't want to drop Powerful Aura since that's how heal tempest maintains fury in its subgroup. You can recover some of your lost healing outside water though with Signet of Water and Wash the Pain away. You would also likely not want to take staff unless your group really needs giga healing. With Sc/Wh or dg/Wh you will be able to provide 25 might, perma regen, perma fury, perma alacrity, perma fury, perma vigor and rebound allows for some special strats on some raid bosses. (As per latest informations) We'll probably no longer be required to provide fury. Sometimes you have to burst heal when you have to burst heal, you can't simply put WtPA always on hold for out of water moments. Signet of water is kinda okayish but still a single heal with a kinda meh radius. I for one would like to heal with d/wh, and it was the whole point of this thread, but it seems ppl tend to understimate how elemental bastion is a key element to that build. What made d/wh ele good was (not considering the 10 men cap) the ability to heal via shouts and apply auras with a 600 radius, strip that and we're left with nothing peculiar going on. :S Edited June 24, 2022 by Erick Alastor.3917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegohBrave.1823 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 lol, complete an overload for alacrity. anet, give wvw tempests something please. You gave us alacrity but no one is going to play fresh air tempest in wvw. I guess it's good for pve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLinni.6109 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Yeah, in WvW it is too unrealiable since you do get interrupted. In PvE.....it would cost healing on aura....for a semi-reliable alacrity? It feels much too clunky, but I will give it a try. I would much prefer having alacrity on aura instead if we already lose healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhaid Zhem.6508 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 (edited) So now you have choice between heal ... or fresh-air alacrity. Was is too difficult to put alacrity on auras or shouts ? Edited June 24, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapenike.6793 Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 9:00 PM, Noodle Ant.1605 said: any ele with a proper heal setup can get 1k+ heals per second passively from maintaining regen + (traited) soothing mist alone. theres absolutely no need to camp water staff/icebow unless bruteforcing a mechanic by trying to outheal it, and unlike cata, temp has wash the pain away + water warhorn skills + better access to regen. one of staffs strengths is geyser res (where temp might not even take arcane to begin with), while icebow can be slotted as emergency anyway, where its more effective than water staff 1 spam and even allows switching attunements while retaining the 1 spam the biggest threat to ele heals is condi cleanse, ele isnt given much group condi clear to deal with junk like afflicted on aquatic, but it shouldnt be a sin to ask people in group to switch a utility skill if necessary (though hopefully theres already a cfb spamming purging flames or scg who knows how to press f2 properly) Ele has the most reliable condi cleanse of any class... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volca.7234 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Alac tempest isn't meant to be a heal tempest buff, its an entirely new role for tempest to choose and thats 100 times better than just buffing heal temp with another boon, now u can play tempest as a hybrid alac dps hybrid and that the best thing ever, a new way to play. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crash.5486 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Why is a tempest being forced to choose between being a hybrid alac dps or just a normal healer? Its perfectly fine if people wanna play an alac hybrid dps but why take it away from healing? Almost all other heal classes are allowed to heal and gives boons but we have to choose. Always loved tempest healer in raids but always gets frowned opon cause it only heals. This changes nothing and is not what they said they were going to do. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine.5014 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 I'd rather have Alac on Aura, not Alac on Overload. At least, with Alac on Aura, Ele can still play Aura Share, which opens up more builds. Alac on Overload means Ele is stuck with Water Staff and Wet Noodles. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhaid Zhem.6508 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 No, it's dumb. Tie a valuable boon, groups are looking for, with a specific (and core) mechanic ... it's dumb. Alacrity on shouts/aura would let you easily adapt if you want to be hybrid dps/buffer with fresh-air or Fire, or full support role with water etc. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Alacrity only on a full overload is a bit too much to ask for at worst it should give alacrity pulsing during the overload effect but to ask for tempest to rotate and never get interrupted by them self or an out side sorceress is to ask for a dead tempest. Mind you that no other class needs to put so much risk to get an ok effect like at tempest (even scraper gyro may give quickness at the end of there effect there no real way to stop the gyro from going though its full effect). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joswi.2635 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Tying it to auras definitely would have been better for both dps and support. Tying it to overloads, especially the end of the overloads, makes it a bit more annoying to deal with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volca.7234 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Crashdown.7419 said: Why is a tempest being forced to choose between being a hybrid alac dps or just a normal healer? Its perfectly fine if people wanna play an alac hybrid dps but why take it away from healing? Almost all other heal classes are allowed to heal and gives boons but we have to choose. Always loved tempest healer in raids but always gets frowned opon cause it only heals. This changes nothing and is not what they said they were going to do. No its not perfectly fine to be highest heal per second class in the game AND be an alac source, if they want to give tempest free alac i will be the first to post a thread demanding the healing in tempest kit to be much lower. And role diversity beats single role bloat 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emberheart.8426 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, volca.7234 said: No its not perfectly fine to be highest heal per second class in the game AND be an alac source, if they want to give tempest free alac i will be the first to post a thread demanding the healing in tempest kit to be much lower. And role diversity beats single role bloat It is perfectly fine because it lacks barrier, CC, stab, aegis, bubbles etc. Look at the actual meta specs bring and you will realize that you would not have brought alac tempest even if it retained full healing. 1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volca.7234 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 Just now, Ganathar.4956 said: It is perfectly fine because it lacks barrier, CC, stab, aegis, bubbles etc. Look at the actual meta specs bring and you will realize that you would not have brought alac tempest even if it retained full healing. No, in group content tempest has highest CC from all support due to lighting aura share to 5 targets which total to 1k-2k defiance bar dmg with staff, 2k-4k if u run dagger and get it from both overload and air dagger 3, and with staff you got 20% mag aura uptime, meanwhile engie bubbles are also 20%, they are matched 1:1 its just the stab that makes bubbles meta and the bigger size so no tempest is no underdog and auras in themselves with no boons are legit god tier utility 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emberheart.8426 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 11 minutes ago, volca.7234 said: No, in group content tempest has highest CC from all support due to lighting aura share to 5 targets which total to 1k-2k defiance bar dmg with staff, 2k-4k if u run dagger and get it from both overload and air dagger 3, and with staff you got 20% mag aura uptime, meanwhile engie bubbles are also 20%, they are matched 1:1 its just the stab that makes bubbles meta and the bigger size so no tempest is no underdog and auras in themselves with no boons are legit god tier utility Bubbles are far superior to mag aura, due to different projectile types and also covering an entire squad. Shocking aura does not deal CC unless you get hit, which you should definitely not be getting hit when breakbars are up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeyeti.8347 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, volca.7234 said: No, in group content tempest has highest CC from all support due to lighting aura share to 5 targets which total to 1k-2k defiance bar dmg with staff, 2k-4k if u run dagger and get it from both overload and air dagger 3, and with staff you got 20% mag aura uptime, meanwhile engie bubbles are also 20%, they are matched 1:1 its just the stab that makes bubbles meta and the bigger size so no tempest is no underdog and auras in themselves with no boons are legit god tier utility Ok , just tell me which boss in the game hit a 5 man to get stunned 1 secondes x5 , assuming this boss isnt channeling while his cc bar is available . Auras are utter garbage in pve content (super strong in pvp though) , sole purpose was to apply boon/healing effect from traits . Fire aura ? a joke . Magnetic aura ? oke , i still prefer a big bubble to reflect/destroy. Shock aura ? Oh it's shiny , kewlll . frost aura ? This one is ok ,-10% damage is good. As people showed upper in the thread , compare the next alac tempest to a ham or even a mech condi/alac ? Why take the tempest as heal/alac or dps/alac , mecha basically is better than him in all ways , Ham is a freaking joke , only buff he dont give is resistance and quickness , other buffs ? it's a 100% uptime (just speed +-80%). This patch (actually) is a joke , it feels like anet remembered there is tempest and herald in the game , and : "oh kitten we forgot about those , lets give them some leftover alacrity and ppl will be happy" . I will stay on my mech to provide alac , and on my firebrand to provide quickness , either it is in healing or dps/condi version. And maybe tryout the druid and banner warrior , but the tempest ? i wont touch it even with a stick ! Other class have very little tradeoff for healing , if you play water and tempest , what do you take for 3rd spec ? obviously air to pump out some fury , but you will not benefit from lower switch cd from arcane , and basically you ll need to overload every attunement to keep alacrity on (assuming you not get interrupted while channeling , lol) , then you have the 20 secs cd , 15 with alacrity for every attunement switch ..., would be way better , to include alac in a renamed hard conduit ( who cares about a -7%power damage taken on himself anyway ,..) , this way tempest can maintain vigor too. You ll take the dps that do the more damage , and as healer you ll take what give the more boons , then what heal the most. At least thats the way i play , i take whats efficient , not whats funny , cause being inefficient isnt funny. Edited June 25, 2022 by zeyeti.8347 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erick Alastor.3917 Posted June 25, 2022 Author Share Posted June 25, 2022 (edited) Endless sadness. Edited June 25, 2022 by Erick Alastor.3917 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howluffu.7259 Posted June 25, 2022 Share Posted June 25, 2022 On 6/22/2022 at 10:48 PM, Erick Alastor.3917 said: "Elementalist: Tempest will now be able to provide party alacrity, with a rework to their grandmaster trait Lucid Singularity." I've mixed feelings about this change. I like that we're finally getting alacrity. And on a dps build having to rely on LS can be pretty okay. I have some concerns about Healing Tempest tho, if we have to sacrifice Elemental Bastion for Lucid Singularity on a healing build, we'll be shoehorned into Staff (just like with cata). Tempest D/W was one of the most fun healing builds I played, it was dynamic, it had a lot of perks (reflects/blind/decent CC/good boon sharing). After the aura cap nerf I was hoping it would come back thanks to alacrity, but now I fear we'll get stuck with staff once again. Don't get me wrong, I'm still happy the class will be viable (in pve), but I find staff gamplay way less engaging... what do you think? Nice! I like staves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erick Alastor.3917 Posted June 25, 2022 Author Share Posted June 25, 2022 44 minutes ago, Howluffu.7259 said: Nice! I like staves. We'll see if you'll like using staff to heal having to constantly move outside of the water attunement xP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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