Giving those using infantile raid mode full rewards is a huge punch in the gut from anet to their hardcore players

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Kimmel Shore.3408 said:

Emboldened has a better chance of increasing the player base for full difficulty raids.  An easy mode would presumably remove mechanics, which means a player could still fear trying full difficulty due to looming mysterious new mechanics.  With emboldened, a player trains with all mechanics, and as the weeks go by, they may wipe less until they virtually accomplish full difficulty, and an individual may realize they're ready to move into full difficulty sooner if they have an easy enough time before the rest of their group wipes. It sounds like it will still be quite an ordeal that doesn't significantly reduce the prestige of raid rewards.

The point of a normal mode would be to increase the player participation, not to ferry players over into the currently existing hard mode or its CMs. Thus making the normal mode a mechanically better fit for a wider part of the player base should be expected.

Such a normal mode might have attracted more players than this emboldened buff does, especially since the people who want to improve are a small minority of the player base.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Aenesthesia.1697]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:55 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

 TL;DR:d Infantile mode helps no one, it cheapens the experience for everyone, and makes rewards feel less rewarding

 

Not only is infantile mode apparently going to be default (wtf?), but those who are using it get FULL rewards? With the current power-creep the game is already seeing, and the skill ceiling and skill floor basically right next to each other, arenanet seems adamant about destroying the 0.0001% of the game that requires just a little bit of brain power in favor of the screeching masses who want everything without any effort. This HURTS the game. Why? Reward without effort is CHEAP. It does not have the same dopamine hit as the kind of hit you get from struggling and then succeeding. Without the thrill of overcoming a challenge, people are actually more likely to quit. Imagine if everything was given to you. You'd be bored in days, if not hours. This is not good design. If anything, they should have added CM+ mode to raids, to keep those playing raids engaged. 

 

OP, don´t know what to say. 

 

Infantile mode? Let´s call the other one gatekeeping mode? 

 

I am sure you raid with your static, good job, you must feel great downing all those impossible to beat bosses. 

 

I tried to get myself into raids when they came out and I couldn´t. I just couldn´t put up with the downtime required. Putting a group together takes more time than raiding, and commiting to a static means commiting to a schedule I cannot keep. 

 

I recently cleared my first raid on my first try, after doing harvest temple with some randoms. The guys say: let´s go raiding now! and i was like: what? i don´t have any LI or KPs!

 

We cleared W1 without wiping. I topped the dps in all encounters (in Sabetha, the second was 5k below me). After that I spent a lot of time trying to find pugs and I completed w2, 3 and 4 (save for the last boss). This means i spend more time looking at the lfg than playing, nowadays. I started playing less, too, as I quite enjoy the raids but it´s not always possible to find a group. 

 

What are you cheapening exactly? The biggest difficulty of Raids seems to come from the lack of players playing raids. If you value that, then yes, it seems it would be better to keep your precious elitist thingy closed to casual players that may discover there´s not much prestige there either. 

 

Otherwise, this change should make it easier to group for at least one wing per week. The "infantile" mode doesn´t kick in if you don´t wipe, and it will at least help prevent the group from disbanding after the first miserable fail. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Linken.6345]

8 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

 

OP, don´t know what to say. 

 

Infantile mode? Let´s call the other one gatekeeping mode? 

 

I am sure you raid with your static, good job, you must feel great downing all those impossible to beat bosses. 

 

I tried to get myself into raids when they came out and I couldn´t. I just couldn´t put up with the downtime required. Putting a group together takes more time than raiding, and commiting to a static means commiting to a schedule I cannot keep. 

 

I recently cleared my first raid on my first try, after doing harvest temple with some randoms. The guys say: let´s go raiding now! and i was like: what? i don´t have any LI or KPs!

 

We cleared W1 without wiping. I topped the dps in all encounters (in Sabetha, the second was 5k below me). After that I spent a lot of time trying to find pugs and I completed w2, 3 and 4 (save for the last boss). This means i spend more time looking at the lfg than playing, nowadays. I started playing less, too, as I quite enjoy the raids but it´s not always possible to find a group. 

 

What are you cheapening exactly? The biggest difficulty of Raids seems to come from the lack of players playing raids. If you value that, then yes, it seems it would be better to keep your precious elitist thingy closed to casual players that may discover there´s not much prestige there either. 

 

Otherwise, this change should make it easier to group for at least one wing per week. The "infantile" mode doesn´t kick in if you don´t wipe, and it will at least help prevent the group from disbanding after the first miserable fail. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just one question how is it being gatekept when as you say later anyone can make a squad?

[Laken.9018]

Seriously?. 
The raid community has spent YEARS moaning about a lack of new blood. The game has been pushing players to do raids and strikes to no avail
So ANET has given basically the training mode which rotates to allow people to 
1) Try the content and see if they like it without getting whiplash
2) Allow people to learn without getting punished if they messed up.

And your moaning because it takes away imaginary e-peen?
Psst heres a games psychology hint for you, if the rewards got reduced it would create tension and divides. It needs to be the same to get players to engage and then move on to other raids.
And if it doesn't work then theres now a system in place that allows raids to go into support mode and not have its content locked out.

[Linken.6345]

13 minutes ago, Laken.9018 said:

Seriously?. 
The raid community has spent YEARS moaning about a lack of new blood. The game has been pushing players to do raids and strikes to no avail
So ANET has given basically the training mode which rotates to allow people to 
1) Try the content and see if they like it without getting whiplash
2) Allow people to learn without getting punished if they messed up.

And your moaning because it takes away imaginary e-peen?
Psst heres a games psychology hint for you, if the rewards got reduced it would create tension and divides. It needs to be the same to get players to engage and then move on to other raids.
And if it doesn't work then theres now a system in place that allows raids to go into support mode and not have its content locked out.

Cough raids kinda have been in maintinance mode over 3 years now.

[Kimmel Shore.3408]

On 7/1/2022 at 6:26 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

The point of a normal mode would be to increase the player participation, not to ferry players over into the currently existing hard mode or its CMs. Thus making the normal mode a mechanically better fit for a wider part of the player base should be expected.

Such a normal mode might have attracted more players than this emboldened buff does, especially since the people who want to improve are a small minority of the player base.

 

In addition to attracting timid tryhards, I think Emboldened may attract casuals to at least play through raids once such that they experience the scenery and lore, which may be the greatest benefit in having easy mode.  Emboldened will help in carrying casuals, so tryhards won't be so demanding of teammate skill, and carrying is fun for getting appreciated and having more challenge, and people generally will get good or move onto other content if they're relying on being carried by strangers, so again, it won't reduce the prestige of raid rewards much.

 

If the player base is as you say, one reason may be that the game needs a harder mode for leveling, so people who want challenge don't drop the game at the start. 

[Fueki.4753]

17 minutes ago, Kimmel Shore.3408 said:

In addition to attracting timid tryhards, I think Emboldened may attract casuals to at least play through raids once such that they experience the scenery and lore, which may be the greatest benefit in having easy mode.  Emboldened will help in carrying casuals, so tryhards won't be so demanding of teammate skill, and carrying is fun for getting appreciated and having more challenge, and people generally will get good or move onto other content if they're relying on being carried by strangers, so again, it won't reduce the prestige of raid rewards much.

And yet there likely is a substantial amount of players, who might want to engage with raids, if there weren't enrage timers, one-shot mechanics and possibly other mechanics that feel too punishing for failing them. None of these are properly addressed with the Emboldened buff.

[firedragon.8953]

I like the Embolded system. Although not perfect, it is a step in the right direction (including the new exp based lfg sections, too). I hope it brings in more raiders, or at least allows people to attempt to experience the content.

It would be kinda nice if the Embolded buff is turned off, the group instead get's the "Call of the Mists" buff for double gold and exp, essentially give 2 "Call of the Mists" wings every week.

[Linken.6345]

6 hours ago, firedragon.8953 said:

I like the Embolded system. Although not perfect, it is a step in the right direction (including the new exp based lfg sections, too). I hope it brings in more raiders, or at least allows people to attempt to experience the content.

It would be kinda nice if the Embolded buff is turned off, the group instead get's the "Call of the Mists" buff for double gold and exp, essentially give 2 "Call of the Mists" wings every week.

Dont it already have call of the mists active with emboldened?

[firedragon.8953]

8 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Dont it already have call of the mists active with emboldened?

No, not how it is currently. 
For example, this week Call of the Mists is Wing 3, but Emboldened is Wing 2. 
My proposal would mean that raiders who choose to forgo the Emboldened Buff in Wing 2 would get Call of the Mists in Wing 2 and Wing 3 this week.
This boosts the rewards of veteran raiders and also incentivizes players to take off the "training wheels" once they feel they are more comfortable with the encounters.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:55 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

 TL;DR:d Infantile mode helps no one, it cheapens the experience for everyone, and makes rewards feel less rewarding

 

Not only is infantile mode apparently going to be default (wtf?), but those who are using it get FULL rewards? With the current power-creep the game is already seeing, and the skill ceiling and skill floor basically right next to each other, arenanet seems adamant about destroying the 0.0001% of the game that requires just a little bit of brain power in favor of the screeching masses who want everything without any effort. This HURTS the game. Why? Reward without effort is CHEAP. It does not have the same dopamine hit as the kind of hit you get from struggling and then succeeding. Without the thrill of overcoming a challenge, people are actually more likely to quit. Imagine if everything was given to you. You'd be bored in days, if not hours. This is not good design. If anything, they should have added CM+ mode to raids, to keep those playing raids engaged. 

Like i (and many others) tried to explain you in all the earlier threads on this subject you wrote in, you clearly do not even understand what emboldened mode does, how much does it help, and how much it does not. All you are showing with those threads is your own lack of experience with the mode.

BTW, Somehow I don't see you complaining about all the advantages over the original raiders you've got due to doing raidings more recently, when it is much easier. You do not seem to think this cheapens the experience of everyone that had it harder than you. All you care about is attempting to put down everyone else.

That... does not look good at all.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

To be fair... I personally don't find this "emboldened mode" attractive as wiping a few time and waiting each time for everyone to re-gather up is what push me away from raids. The whole mechanic is promoting what I dislike the most in raids...

I can understand that it's a way to bring new blood in raids but... That's just not for me.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

To be fair... I personally don't find this "emboldened mode" attractive as wiping a few time and waiting each time for everyone to re-gather up is what push me away from raids. The whole mechanic is promoting what I dislike the most in raids...

I can understand that it's a way to bring new blood in raids but... That's just not for me.

You are looking at it from the wrong side.

This mechanic does not promote wiping. It does the opposite - it tries to lower the psychological weight of wiping, so new players are not so crushed by it. Those that can do it on the first try will still be doing it on the first try. It's what happens if they can't what this mechanism is about - it promotes sticking together and trying again (and again, and again, if necessary) without the whole group immediately getting discouraged and individual players starting to leave in search of "better groups".

Frankly, groups that simply can not do it without the buff will still be unable to do it even with full stacks. Groups that can consistently do it without the buff, obviously, have no need of it. Where it helps is in case of the groups that can kill the boss, just not very consistently.

It's something that is supposed to promote the "okay, maybe we've wiped this time, but next time we'll surely be able to do it" way of thinking.

And to address your original point: "wiping a few time and waiting each time for everyone to re-gather up" is still going to happen, with or without the emboldened mode, because that's unfortunaltely, is how raids are. With emboldened, at least there's a chance there will be slightly less wipes. There definitely should not be more of them.

[Labjax.2465]

32 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You are looking at it from the wrong side.

This mechanic does not promote wiping. It does the opposite - it tries to lower the psychological weight of wiping, so new players are not so crushed by it. Those that can do it on the first try will still be doing it on the first try. It's what happens if they can't what this mechanism is about - it promotes sticking together and trying again (and again, and again, if necessary) without the whole group immediately getting discouraged and individual players starting to leave in search of "better groups".

Frankly, groups that simply can not do it without the buff will still be unable to do it even with full stacks. Groups that can consistently do it without the buff, obviously, have no need of it. Where it helps is in case of the groups that can kill the boss, just not very consistently.

It's something that is supposed to promote the "okay, maybe we've wiped this time, but next time we'll surely be able to do it" way of thinking.

And to address your original point: "wiping a few time and waiting each time for everyone to re-gather up" is still going to happen, with or without the emboldened mode, because that's unfortunaltely, is how raids are. With emboldened, at least there's a chance there will be slightly less wipes. There definitely should not be more of them.

Yes, motivation and limiting-beliefs are a really important thing to consider in something like raids. One thing I noticed in my time doing progression raiding in another game was that it was almost always easier to kill a boss the 2nd time (and beyond). The amount of gear we'd gotten immediately wasn't that much, so I believe it was more the confidence of knowing we'd done it before that made it easier; something that applies pretty broadly, whether as a group or as an individual. Knowing you've done something before is such a powerful confidence booster and on the flip side, looking at attempt after attempt and seeing only failure is a drain on confidence to the point you may think you can never succeed, regardless of how close you really are.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

One thing I noticed in my time doing progression raiding in another game was that it was almost always easier to kill a boss the 2nd time (and beyond). The amount of gear we'd gotten immediately wasn't that much, so I believe it was more the confidence of knowing we'd done it before that made it easier

It's not confidence, it's practice. With every wipe you still practice the encounter and game's/encounter-specific mechanics. That leads you to your first clear in the first place and you're not suddenly unlearning everything when you approach the boss after that clear.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Kantharr.2308]

I know that they said some prestige achievements would be locked out if you turn Emboldened mode on but has anyone confirmed whether this includes the Envoy & Coalescence achievements?

[Wintermute.5408]

32 minutes ago, Kantharr.2308 said:

I know that they said some prestige achievements would be locked out if you turn Emboldened mode on but has anyone confirmed whether this includes the Envoy & Coalescence achievements?

Coal just requires items IIRC that you pick from chests. More importantly, why should emboldened gangs be locked out of leg achievements? If they manage to kill Dhuum or Q1, they deserve it regardless of the mode.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

Coal just requires items IIRC that you pick from chests. More importantly, why should emboldened gangs be locked out of leg achievements? If they manage to kill Dhuum or Q1, they deserve it regardless of the mode.

If you're really looking for an answer "why not?", then it's probably because technically completing content in easier mode is no longer the same achievement as it was intended.

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If you're really looking for an answer "why not?", then it's probably because technically completing content in easier mode is no longer the same achievement as it was intended.

Sure... technically. When we consider however that this "easier mode" is probably helping less than at some time distort share did, this answer becomes more dubious. Because we're suddenly deciding "worthiness" of obtaining said achievement not by actual difficulty of obtaining it, but by arbitrary factors we think are important (while ignoring other factors, just because we don't think they were important).

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure... technically. When we consider however that this "easier mode" is probably helping less than at some time distort share did, this answer becomes more dubious. Because we're suddenly deciding "worthiness" of obtaining said achievement not by actual difficulty of obtaining it, but by arbitrary factors we think are important (while ignoring other factors, just because we don't think they were important).

It's almost as if it got nerfed/changed for a reason though...? What do you think that reason was? And not sure what you're saying here: just because something was overperforming at certain times, everything should be allowed to do so? The -subjective, sure- line was crossed, so we just keep crossing it? (and if "crossing the line" somehow sounds super-serious here, it's not supposed to btw)

[Krzysztof.5973]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

This mechanic does not promote wiping. It does the opposite - it tries to lower the psychological weight of wiping, so new players are not so crushed by it.

You can farm 5 stacks solo by staying alive for 30sec. Alternatively you make everyone /gg and go afk for 4min, one person farms the stacks while everyone is having a tea or listening to the few mechanics being explained. *poof* all 5 stacks right at the start with close to no effort 🤩

[Wintermute.5408]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If you're really looking for an answer "why not?", then it's probably because technically completing content in easier mode is no longer the same achievement as it was intended.

There is no ahievement in legendary gear unlocks. You could pay and get carried by the sellers anyway, and get your collection done. Or just hit a floor mid-fight and still get "clear", as I did with Q1. Muh crowning achievement.

If people aren't able to do mechanics, they will never clear Sabetha/Deimos/Dhuum/Q1 no matter how big of a buff they get. If they can do mechanics, they are half-way there anyway.

[Sobx.1758]

21 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

There is no ahievement in legendary gear unlocks.

Well, people that still didn't unlock them, but will try to go for it now must disagree I guess? 🤔

21 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

If people aren't able to do mechanics, they will never clear Sabetha/Deimos/Dhuum/Q1 no matter how big of a buff they get. If they can do mechanics, they are half-way there anyway.

Right. And last time I've checked, "half way" =/= "whole way", so honestly not sure what I'm supposed to understand from this other than just see confirmation about what I said above.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Wintermute.5408]

13 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Well, people that still didn't unlock them, but will try to go for it now must disagree I guess? 🤔

Right. And last time I've checked, "half way" =/= "whole way", so honestly not sure what I'm supposed to understand from this other than just see confirmation about what I said above.

I just disagree it was any kind of "achievement" to begin with. Leg armor/ring itself? Sure, it requires consistent clearing, and it's not something that can easily be done just on emboldeneds alone. Collection unlocks? Nah. You could literally pay your way through most of them. Which, within the context of this fantastic thread, turns into a question "who the kitten cares anyway".

Edited July 9, 2022 by Wintermute.5408

[Sobx.1758]

9 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I just disagree it was any kind of "achievement" to begin with. Leg armor/ring itself? Sure, it requires consistent clearing, and it's not something that can easily be done just on emboldeneds alone. Collection unlocks? Nah. You could literally pay your way through most of them. Which, within the context of this fantastic thread, turns into a question "who the kitten cares anyway".

Cool, you've asked why, I gave you an example for why. You're free to disagree all you want, it still is an achievement and it's still not the same achievement when done in easy mode. You seem to understand that perfectly with the "half way there" part, but if you just want to keep saying you somehow desagree regardless of what you've just wrote then w/e 😄

You could literally pay your way through almost anything, ingame or irl. But if someone wanted to "pay for it", then they don't need to have these available in easy mode since they already did pay for it.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758