Can Mirage finally have its 2nd dodge back?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Lmao. Yeah, okay sure. If they give blink a 5 second cooldown maybe all mesmer specs would be viable, Or maybe if clones did like 50% of our base damage, Or more relistically maybe give everything Dom and Duel has in one line and then make a better survivability line on par with wilderness survival or shadow arts. To bad that's never going to happen.

Necro never had a broken and rushed base design that made it objectively inferor to another class that would intrinsically replace it in slot in all metas, it was never a one trick pony to CC one person out of a fight on a super long cooldown with an objectively inferior kit to the rest of the cast behind it. When Death Shroud and Litch was first buffed (idk how it looks now) it stared knocking people out basically for free without over reliance on the team, mesmer WILL NEVER get anything like that- This is not analogues in any way. It had times when it underperformed sure, but even then it had a role and a reason to be taken over those competing in the slot. Also to a lesser degree than literally every medium class, Necro trait lines don't really need to double up to do one thing effectively either.

You don't fix the core issues that Mesmer has without redesigning Mesmer as a whole, I already said that in my post. But this is a lot of resources and effort, that A-net already doesn't want to spend buffing Mesmer; rather than oh idk RETURNING THE EVADE BAR AN ON A ELITE SPEC.

As for your example you do nothing to solve the actual issues with Mesmer. Mesmer's issue is that it's survivability has always been a mechanic that doesn't actually add survivability against anyone that isn't simply bad, with a one shot burst that leaves you massively vulnerable after, and a damage resource people can literally kill or and put all the control in the opponents hand. Meanwhile thief gets to escape for virtually free and try again on a whiff and is completely un-targetable until then (unless it's an evade spam build). <- This is the issue that needs to be solved, this is the issue that mirage exclusively was supposed to solve; It was the wilderness survial/shadow art equivalent line- and it was gutted to the point of only being playable in one particular clunky way because A-net can't balance condi on anything ever... (Even though the solution for condi mirage was actually fairly simple, but they didn't listen they wanted to do whatever tf they wanted, much like with their demeanor in the leaks... It's almost like Supcutie called this out in freaking 2013, but here we are.)

Didn't read the whole wall of text, but core Necro was also considered terrible whereas Scourge was considered way superior for a long time, then Core Necro became meta up until EoD and Scourge is/was considered trash tier, crazy right. Let's say as a hypothetical, that Core Mesmer got a pre-nerf portal on F5 (not available on Mirage/Chrono/Virtuoso). It would instantly be up there in power level with Mirage. That took me 1 second to come up with.

Also Core Necro was considered useless and flawed after the expansions due to its slow cast times, lack of mobility and lack of stability, which made it weak to CC and being bursted down - Scourge made up for this with instant shroud skills and a portal, reaper made up for it with built-in mobility, and stab.

Edited June 27, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Salt Mode.3780]

39 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Didn't read the whole wall of text, but core Necro was also considered terrible whereas Scourge was considered way superior for a long time, then Core Necro became meta up until EoD and Scourge is/was considered trash tier, crazy right. Let's say as a hypothetical, that Core Mesmer got a pre-nerf portal on F5 (not available on Mirage/Chrono/Virtuoso). It would instantly be up there in power level with Mirage. That took me 1 second to come up with.

Also Core Necro was considered useless and flawed after the expansions due to its slow cast times, lack of mobility and lack of stability, which made it weak to CC and being bursted down - Scourge made up for this with instant shroud skills and a portal, reaper made up for it with built-in mobility, and stab.

What...? Scourge Minionmancers became very meta for a very long time to a point where it continued to get nerfed. The only reason why Core seemed like it got stronger is because both reaper and scourge got significant nerfs to its core mechanics like scourge with sand shades and reaper well they nerfed necro's ability to gain stab. Regardless of buffing core it did not help either scourge or reaper perform better. 

So no, buffing core does not mean it will trickle down to making the e-specs perform better. Also the nerfs on Mirage aside from the one dodge nerf most of it was nerfs to core. I've said it many times, revert the nerfs that was done when mirage had 2 dodges, aka revert all the nerfs done to core.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

39 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So no, buffing core does not mean it will trickle down to making the e-specs perform better.

This is completely nonsensical and contradicts reality on a fundamental level.

39 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Also the nerfs on Mirage aside from the one dodge nerf most of it was nerfs to core. I've said it many times, revert the nerfs that was done when mirage had 2 dodges, aka revert all the nerfs done to core.

Absolutely, I agree 100% on that! For instance Critical Infusion.

[Daishi.6027]

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Didn't read the whole wall of text

Well then you're going to miss alot of historical context to show why I'm right, and not be able to answer the key question. But kay. Why refute an argument based on it's points?😒
I'd comment more on the necro kitten, but if you're not going to read it fine. But you have a misconception of the history.
 

 

3 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Let's say as a hypothetical, that Core Mesmer got a pre-nerf portal on F5 (not available on Mirage/Chrono/Virtuoso). It would instantly be up there in power level with Mirage. That took me 1 second to come up with.

1. That proves my point in saying how you can easily balance core without making the elite specs op.

2. I don't get what that it has to do with mirage and why that would somehow preclude it from getting it's 2nd evade back.

3. A-net's already stingy to reverse bad nerfs, what makes you think they'd spend the resources programing a f5 of something they already consider too strong, just to slap it on core baseline? Does this also mean we get distortion back on Chrono? (something else I'd be saying to give back if this wasn't a mirage thread)

It is an interesting and fun thought tho; In WvW yes it would be very powerful. In sPvP maybe, I'm more skeptical. Like sure, it frees a utility slot so you can have it on chaos build for free. But like, even before portal nerfs the usage was falling off, and even then mesmer mains would still stop playing mesmer as a portal utility in favor of thief when playing in tourneys that actually mattered, (with a few exceptions). idk how much this would actually change unless the freed utility somehow made or breaks mesmer; but again I'm skeptical.

 

 

2 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Absolutely, I agree 100% on that! For instance Critical Infusion.

Glad we all agree on this point that salt made, and I'm all for them. However, none of that would fix how clunky mirage is. None of it would make power mirage viable. And even Core mes with all that stuff was pretty lacking; so where do you go from there? I'd rather actually have a fun and viable mirage now, that would actually get me to play... Rather than have a mediocre core and at best mediocre elites for 5 years.
 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Daishi.6027

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

Well then you're going to miss alot of historical context to show why I'm right, and not be able to answer the key question. But kay. Why refute an argument based on it's points?😒
I'd comment more on the necro kitten, but if you're not going to read it fine. But you have a misconception of the history.
 

Ok fine, I read the whole thing now and honestly it seems like I have already responded to most of it. You make it sound like the issue is survivability but it's actually damage/impact for sidenoder core and mobility for roamer core. Core Mesmer has such low impact that it needs to run 2 or even 3 offensive traitlines to have any impact at all, and then you can't fit in inspi/chaos. The same is basically true of Virtuoso. Mesmer doesn't have much trouble surviving if it wants to, but other classes can afford to slot one or two defensive lines (like ranger with nature magic/wilderness survival for ex) and still have a ton of impact. Even thief runs Shadow Arts. And clones aren't really the fundamental issue (you say "a damage resource people can literally kill", otherwise Virtuoso would be better than Mirage which it isn't).

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

1. That proves my point in saying how you can easily balance core without making the elite specs op.

Yeah you can always do things the complicated way and separately buff core, chrono, mirage and virtuoso. Or... you can do 4 times less work and just buff core Mesmer which will have positive effects on all Mesmer specs. Are you like Jazz in that you also actively dislike core Mesmer?

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

'2. I don't get what that it has to do with mirage and why that would somehow preclude it from getting it's 2nd evade back.

I'll explain it then;

Step 1. realize that all of Mesmer is underperforming, including core and all 3 elite specs.

Step 2. realize that buffing core Mesmer thus is the most efficient and appropriate way to buff all four specs at once.

Step 3. realize that buffing core Mesmer will also buff Mirage.

Step 4. after this is done, evaluate how strong Mirage is compared to other Mesmer specs. If it is weaker, then restore the 2nd dodge. If it is still stronger than Core, Chrono, Virtuoso, then don't restore the 2nd dodge, as that would actively make the class balance worse.

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

3. A-net's already stingy to reverse bad nerfs, what makes you think they'd spend the resources programing a f5 of something they already consider too strong, just to slap it on core baseline? Does this also mean we get distortion back on Chrono? (something else I'd be saying to give back if this wasn't a mirage thread)

That was an example I came up with in 1 second to show that it isn't hard to make core Mesmer compete with the elite specs. Some people, you included, seem to have this idea that it is impossible, which just isn't true at all. Core Mesmer is actually fairly balanced compared to Chrono right now, it's just Virtuoso and to a greater extent Mirage that are outliers. To be clear, it isn't my preferred core Mesmer buff, which would rather be to first of all buff dueling, domination and some underused utilities and weapons (such as offhand sword).

Giving back distortion to Chrono is another terrible idea along the exact same lines as giving back 2nd dodge to Mirage (actually, even worse I'd say). With distortion removed from Chrono, we finally have Core and Chrono on a similar playing field - which is a FANTASTIC thing. This balance should under no circumstances be purposefully ruined.

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

It is an interesting and fun thought tho; In WvW yes it would be very powerful. In sPvP maybe, I'm more skeptical. Like sure, it frees a utility slot so you can have it on chaos build for free. But like, even before portal nerfs the usage was falling off, and even then mesmer mains would still stop playing mesmer as a portal utility in favor of thief when playing in tourneys that actually mattered, (with a few exceptions). idk how much this would actually change unless the freed utility somehow made or breaks mesmer; but again I'm skeptical.

This is putting too much stock into a thought experiment, that wasn't an actual suggestion.

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

 

Glad we all agree on this point that salt made, and I'm all for them. However, none of that would fix how clunky mirage is. None of it would make power mirage viable. And even Core mes with all that stuff was pretty lacking; so where do you go from there? I'd rather actually have a fun and viable mirage now, that would actually get me to play... Rather than have a mediocre core and at best mediocre elites for 5 years.
 

I don't think Mirage is that clunky though, and the most clunky thing on Mirage for me is the terrible sword ambush animation, not the single dodge. Even with 1 dodge Mirage is way way easier to survive on than core/chrono. I'd certainly say Virtuoso is far clunkier. Mirage isn't even that bad right now, if you buff the core lines it uses (domi, duel, illu) and the core weapons (sword, gs etc) it will instantly be much better.

[Salt Mode.3780]

The problem is, even if you buff vigor it doesnt really reduce the time it takes to get the one dodge back. Dodge food + vigor is a fixed 8 sec CD on the dodge, it doesnt affect it whatsoever I dont know if this was intentional when they removed a dodge.

[Lethion.8745]

I am sorry but I don't think second dodge will ever come back or Mirage will be above average outside of PvE in general. Both devs and players have insane bias against Mesmer that can only be competed by Thief, (espacially against Mirage) Yes, there was a time where Mirage was broken and unfortunetly people doesn't seem to be able to get over it. Maybe in next 10 years after everyone forget what Mirage once was, we can see some improvements. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

The reason why Mirage seems clunky is because the spec was made with 2 dodge in mind. Removing dodge hurts Mesmers more then any other classes only because our resource is tied to it as well as Mirage main source of dps because if IH is tied to dodge. So what ends up happening is you dodge for dps or dodge to evade damage. Often not you are lacking that extra damage to finish people off because well one dodge only. The fact that Deceptive evasion is in most of our builds in competitive play.

Mesmer dps has declined over the years due to damage nerfs lets not forget the biggest damage nerf on Blurred Frenzy. Our phantasms gutted and our weapon skills itself dont do much damage. GS 2 got a nerf with a damage decrease and a extra projectile slap onto it to make it seem like you will do more damage. Difference between Mesmer vs all the other classes is our weapon skills really dont do all that much damage, most of our damage is shattering which again dodging is tied to our resource. 

The only saving grace for Mirage is honestly GS ambush because it double downs on giving you might and stacking vulnerability on the enemy allowing you to double your damage.

Also as far as Condi mirage goes, I can see why it can be strong in sPVP only because of how many things removed from that mode, but in WvW where sigil of cleansing clears 3 condis its a joke, in sPVP you are forced to engage a condi mirage due to a point node type of game mode where as WvW as a roamer you can simply ignore the condi mirage and they have no real way to catch up to you or do enough "burst" to kill you. Even if mirage had 2nd dodge back in WvW condi mirage is still a joke simply because they removed burn from staff which was the bulk of dps for condi mirage.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Suyheuti.1732]

On 6/26/2022 at 5:28 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

I think it should be changed to one dodge in PvE (like it is in PvP) as well, BUT make every dodge leave behind a Mirage Mirror so you can always get your second dodge by backtracking. This would make it more of a solid mechanic than a nerf, and benefit from traits more.

 

Having two dodges that you don't have to work for is just way too powerful on Mirage. What makes it balanced on other classes is it significantly lowers DPS output and increases ramp up time.

 

I'm sorry but you advice is nonsense. Do you think every mirage player play with ranged weapon? Do you know how hard to get mirrors 1 by 1 with melee build? I'm not even talk about axe mirage still bugged for a very long time and Devs even know and none of them cared. 

 

I'm not asking to get 2nd dodge in PvP, because it will make mirage unbeateable position. At least, I'd like to get sth which triggers ambush attack (not mirrors) Maybe changing mechanic of mirrors with sth else. (As I said, mirrors are pain without ranged build)

 

One more thing, staff ambush is also bugged, it should go to a target who located higher level than you, Autoattacks deal but not Chaos Vortex. It gets obstacled all the time. For example: a target on the castle wall in WvW.   

[FarmBotXD.1430]

they will never make mesmer good in pvp, its against their policy 

[chripsy.1027]

If thieves can stealth permanently. essentially becoming invulnerable, then Mirage can have 2 dodges...

[Daishi.6027]

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You make it sound like the issue is survivability but it's actually damage/impact for sidenoder core and mobility for roamer core.

idk about now but no one actually plays core side node (if we're talking to actually draw fights and fight them xv1), No one has since 2014. and Prior to the specalization patch, giving us 3 full trait lines; the amount of pros who would even run it to do this role in tounrys was nil.

Mobility for core roaming was addressed with super speed in chaos.

We're talking about a build that can one shot with something less consistent than a backstab, with a longer cooldown, and with 0 safety between attempts - Attempts that require the same tools you use to stay alive. 

I don't know how you draw "Damage/impact" from that. When all it needs is something like going water/earth like an ele or a way to evade spam like a thief or ranger, or escape into stealth without expending to many resources to allow you to hide the burst like the way a thief does. Mesmer has none because A-net assume illusions are enough.

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Core Mesmer has such low impact that it needs to run 2 or even 3 offensive traitlines to have any impact at all, and then you can't fit in inspi/chaos

Which if you want to buff the traits too that's fine. But I'd argue even for defense something like inspiration/chaos do not compare to something like wilderness survival. If you want true core buffs we'd have to roll Duel and Dom into one, and everything except the mobility of chaos into insp. The more complicated or more grandiose changes the less likely A-net will do anything about it. Outside of Chrono bunk, and the glamour thing in WvW, and excluding obvious bugs; Mesmer has always been underpowered or fair, and A-net would nerf it. (or nerf the wrong thing to fix something else)

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Mesmer doesn't have much trouble surviving if it wants to

Yes, but it has to spend ALL it's resources to doing so. This is not the same as something like thief who's burst and defensive options, although share the initiative bar; has more than enough to perform what it needs to AND THEN just needs to not stand in AoEs while in stealth; where they regain their resources and can easily refresh with little cost to their already restoring pool. Or Run away and return with little expenditure.

Every class capable of dueling or side nodeing, except for mesmer loses no momentum when having to survive waiting for their burst options. Some do it better than others sure, but only mesmer loses the war of attrition by default because of their resources. Which is why people complained so much about Mirage; because now it could win wars of attrition.

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

but other classes can afford to slot one or two defensive lines (like ranger with nature magic/wilderness survival for ex) and still have a ton of impact. Even thief runs Shadow Arts. And clones aren't really the fundamental issue

Yes, and they are better lines. The reason for this is the damage the other clases have are implicitly high, mesmer historically had a coefficent issue (tho it got better) and the fact that half it's skills as you say have no real impact. I agree for the most part

But you know what works if Mesmer has to take 2 offensive lines to compete, and has bad sustain- meanwhile everyone else has decent baseline offense and can afford two defensive lines or whatever?: Improving the baseline sustain of mesmer. Like sure, You're right to a degree, you COULD try and make it all even, give mesmer skills more impact and fix the core lines... but that requires re-working all of mesmers lines... But to re-emphasize my point: The more complicated or more grandiose changes, the less likely A-net will do anything about it. Outside of Chrono bunk, and the old glamour build in WvW, and excluding obvious bugs; Mesmer has always be underpowered or fair and A-net would STILL nerf it.

But I am glad you're seeing where the issues are, but the part you don't seem to understand is that core mes was rushed and fairly incomplete for release... They haven't fixed it in 10 years outside of releasing elite specs that let it compete- Only to then nerf them, and most of the time being because top players were losing to it, and wanted to keep their standing. Pro players in 2013 pointed out how the "balance team" and it's collusion with other top players, along with devs particularly Karl Mclain were explicitly bias against mesmer, and would not concede any objectively correct points.

With the leak communications, you can see the demeanor among that general clique has not changed. Some of the faces maybe, but the attitude has not.

If this was 5 or 6 years ago, I would be onboard with going for what you're asking, but it takes wayyy to long for anything to get done with A-net... And that's assuming a time when A-net isn't bleeding money and had the resources. (well you know if they weren't sinking it into side projects no one gave a kitten about.)

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

(you say "a damage resource people can literally kill", otherwise Virtuoso would be better than Mirage which it isn't).

(This was one of many already kitten contexts, fixing one aspect doesn't make or break a class, and I'd argue they didn't even wholly fix it in a good way)

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yeah you can always do things the complicated way and separately buff core, chrono, mirage and virtuoso. Or... you can do 4 times less work and just buff core Mesmer which will have positive effects on all Mesmer specs. Are you like Jazz in that you also actively dislike core Mesmer?

-snip-
 

I'll explain it then;

Step 1. realize that all of Mesmer is underperforming, including core and all 3 elite specs.

Step 2. realize that buffing core Mesmer thus is the most efficient and appropriate way to buff all four specs at once.

Step 3. realize that buffing core Mesmer will also buff Mirage.

Step 4. after this is done, evaluate how strong Mirage is compared to other Mesmer specs. If it is weaker, then restore the 2nd dodge. If it is still stronger than Core, Chrono, Virtuoso, then don't restore the 2nd dodge, as that would actively make the class balance worse.

No, and I'll point it out again. The issue with Core is that it's fundamentally broken and it's not going to be fixed, it needs way to much of a comprehensive re-work and that's just not happening, and that is a WAY more complicated fix than Restoring distortion, Restoring second evade, and then doing a couple number based balance tweaks. and idk what to do with Virtuoso I haven't really played enough of it to assess, but from what I have in the betas felt pretty garbage and has less than core, by giving up the parts that made core useful. Leaked communications pretty much pointed out Virtuoso is supposed to be "easier to use core mes", which is pretty telling.

EVEN IF you buff core, remember- there was a time when core mesmer had a lot of what we're asking for; It couldn't even compete then. You could argue it's elite spec would push it out of the meta- I'd argue it wouldn't, because while mirage was side nodding, core could roam in ways mirage couldn't; because Mirage couldn't afford chaos nor massinvis. 

This along with the points we both made about the trait lines is the trade off CMC was looking for- he failed to realize: ALL of Mesmer's elite specs inherently come with one.

Which is why they should be restored. I'm also in favor of returning the nerfs made to core. Because even at the height of mirage's power the issue is rooted in condi and it's application. (another thing a-net can't seem to balance)

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

That was an example I came up with in 1 second to show that it isn't hard to make core Mesmer compete with the elite specs. Some people, you included, seem to have this idea that it is impossible, which just isn't true at all.

It's impossible because A-net will not make those changes. Plain and simple, if we ask for things that would could MAYBE get a fun and fair class to play.

Let's say we took your suggestion, giving Core Portal on F5 no matter how hypothetical. Question is is how does this affect the others? Does this now mean that all 4 get it?- it can't because you specified the part I underlined.
If alternatively you mean that for example Mirage's trade off would be to lose the F5 portal functionality, I'm fine with that if Mirage got it's second evade back in return... But that doesn't seem to be what you're implying?

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Core Mesmer is actually fairly balanced compared to Chrono right now

Pretty low bar.

Look, Core has a role. You can buff it so it improves that roll I don't see an issue with that. But you can't sit here and tell me that Core is balanced relative to the rest of the game even with buffs, when it's generally replaced in slot no matter what you do. I have no issue with buffing core to be on par with something like a thief, but that is a much bigger ask thatr would probably never come. A-net already will probably never restore the small asks, and this entire thread is probably equally pointless (why I stopped playing and even posting... I was debating if I was even going to engage you at first... But I'd rather A-net see my grievance and mock them because given the state of the game; I can rub in was right on their forums.) But there's really only so much you can ask for and expect to happen.
 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

With distortion removed from Chrono, we finally have Core and Chrono on a similar playing field - which is a FANTASTIC thing. This balance should under no circumstances be purposefully ruined.

Both of them being garbage isn't a fantastic thing tho. All it means is you equalized the time line for them both to stay in the pit for repairs. And the point is irrelevant since as I pointed out earlier, you can give Core a defined and distinct roll, and buff it accordingly. Since AGAIN, the elite specs cannot afford the same trait lines.

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I don't think Mirage is that clunky though, and the most clunky thing on Mirage for me is the terrible sword ambush animation, not the single dodge.

Disagree but you're entitled to that opinion.

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Even with 1 dodge Mirage is way way easier to survive on than core/chrono.

 That's a super low bar. Now conflate how easy it is to survive on Literally everything else in the game. If more than 1 class does it better and easier, given this was the intention of mirage; the design failed and is objectively underpowered.

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I'd certainly say Virtuoso is far clunkier.

I'll take your word for it. But from what I did play in the beta, I found it was core minus the ability to punish people you try to kite. I felt like a core mes without chaos and a worse mirror blade combo; and when I took chaos I felt like a core mes without enough damage... AND a worse mirror blade combo, lol.

 

 

22 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Mirage isn't even that bad right now, if you buff the core lines it uses (domi, duel, illu) and the core weapons (sword, gs etc) it will instantly be much better.

Or... and hear me out here Or... You could just like Restore it's second evade and maybe fix jaunt. That would be easier than watching A-net kitten up our lines- again. And a lot faster than "We added more crit" 4 months later "This trait now hits harder" or worse and more likely after a year and a half: "We redone the whole line! but we gutted aspecs X Y and Z to make room for our new vision"; because: *insert relevant people in communication leaks*

I'm tired of this, this is why I stopped. You go on believing what you want, A-net will listen to neither of us so the point is moot. We've seen the type of things you're asking for happen for over a decade, instead of implementing the specific things that will actually fix the game. I hope you get what you want but the issues go beyond just Mesmer and it's unity between it's elite specs. All most of us want is a viable fun class to play, Even if it's power would be toned down to match the game now nothing will beat how power mirage felt in season 9/10 ish, and unlike it's condi counter part which has all the same features; it was fair and balanced.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Daishi.6027

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

 

idk about now but no one actually plays core side node (if we're talking to actually draw fights and fight them xv1), No one has since 2014. and Prior to the specalization patch, giving us 3 full trait lines; the amount of pros who would even run it to do this role in tounrys was nil.

Mobility for core roaming was addressed with super speed in chaos.

We're talking about a build that can one shot with something less consistent than a backstab, with a longer cooldown, and with 0 safety between attempts - Attempts that require the same tools you use to stay alive. 

I don't know how you draw "Damage/impact" from that. When all it needs is something like going water/earth like an ele or a way to evade spam like a thief or ranger, or escape into stealth without expending to many resources to allow you to hide the burst like the way a thief does. Mesmer has none because A-net assume illusions are enough.

 

 

Which if you want to buff the traits too that's fine. But I'd argue even for defense something like inspiration/chaos do not compare to something like wilderness survival. If you want true core buffs we'd have to roll Duel and Dom into one, and everything except the mobility of chaos into insp. The more complicated or more grandiose changes the less likely A-net will do anything about it. Outside of Chrono bunk, and the glamour thing in WvW, and excluding obvious bugs; Mesmer has always been underpowered or fair, and A-net would nerf it. (or nerf the wrong thing to fix something else)

 

 

Yes, but it has to spend ALL it's resources to doing so. This is not the same as something like thief who's burst and defensive options, although share the initiative bar; has more than enough to perform what it needs to AND THEN just needs to not stand in AoEs while in stealth; where they regain their resources and can easily refresh with little cost to their already restoring pool. Or Run away and return with little expenditure.

Every class capable of dueling or side nodeing, except for mesmer loses no momentum when having to survive waiting for their burst options. Some do it better than others sure, but only mesmer loses the war of attrition by default because of their resources. Which is why people complained so much about Mirage; because now it could win wars of attrition.

 

 

Yes, and they are better lines. The reason for this is the damage the other clases have are implicitly high, mesmer historically had a coefficent issue (tho it got better) and the fact that half it's skills as you say have no real impact. I agree for the most part

But you know what works if Mesmer has to take 2 offensive lines to compete, and has bad sustain- meanwhile everyone else has decent baseline offense and can afford two defensive lines or whatever?: Improving the baseline sustain of mesmer. Like sure, You're right to a degree, you COULD try and make it all even, give mesmer skills more impact and fix the core lines... but that requires re-working all of mesmers lines... But to re-emphasize my point: The more complicated or more grandiose changes, the less likely A-net will do anything about it. Outside of Chrono bunk, and the old glamour build in WvW, and excluding obvious bugs; Mesmer has always be underpowered or fair and A-net would STILL nerf it.

But I am glad you're seeing where the issues are, but the part you don't seem to understand is that core mes was rushed and fairly incomplete for release... They haven't fixed it in 10 years outside of releasing elite specs that let it compete- Only to then nerf them, and most of the time being because top players were losing to it, and wanted to keep their standing. Pro players in 2013 pointed out how the "balance team" and it's collusion with other top players, along with devs particularly Karl Mclain were explicitly bias against mesmer, and would not concede any objectively correct points.

With the leak communications, you can see the demeanor among that general clique has not changed. Some of the faces maybe, but the attitude has not.

If this was 5 or 6 years ago, I would be onboard with going for what you're asking, but it takes wayyy to long for anything to get done with A-net... And that's assuming a time when A-net isn't bleeding money and had the resources. (well you know if they weren't sinking it into side projects no one gave a kitten about.)

 

(This was one of many already kitten contexts, fixing one aspect doesn't make or break a class, and I'd argue they didn't even wholly fix it in a good way)

 

 

No, and I'll point it out again. The issue with Core is that it's fundamentally broken and it's not going to be fixed, it needs way to much of a comprehensive re-work and that's just not happening, and that is a WAY more complicated fix than Restoring distortion, Restoring second evade, and then doing a couple number based balance tweaks. and idk what to do with Virtuoso I haven't really played enough of it to assess, but from what I have in the betas felt pretty garbage and has less than core, by giving up the parts that made core useful. Leaked communications pretty much pointed out Virtuoso is supposed to be "easier to use core mes", which is pretty telling.

EVEN IF you buff core, remember- there was a time when core mesmer had a lot of what we're asking for; It couldn't even compete then. You could argue it's elite spec would push it out of the meta- I'd argue it wouldn't, because while mirage was side nodding, core could roam in ways mirage couldn't; because Mirage couldn't afford chaos nor massinvis. 

This along with the points we both made about the trait lines is the trade off CMC was looking for- he failed to realize: ALL of Mesmer's elite specs inherently come with one.

Which is why they should be restored. I'm also in favor of returning the nerfs made to core. Because even at the height of mirage's power the issue is rooted in condi and it's application. (another thing a-net can't seem to balance)

 

 

It's impossible because A-net will not make those changes. Plain and simple, if we ask for things that would could MAYBE get a fun and fair class to play.

Let's say we took your suggestion, giving Core Portal on F5 no matter how hypothetical. Question is is how does this affect the others? Does this now mean that all 4 get it?- it can't because you specified the part I underlined.
If alternatively you mean that for example Mirage's trade off would be to lose the F5 portal functionality, I'm fine with that if Mirage got it's second evade back in return... But that doesn't seem to be what you're implying?

 

 

Pretty low bar.

Look, Core has a role. You can buff it so it improves that roll I don't see an issue with that. But you can't sit here and tell me that Core is balanced relative to the rest of the game even with buffs, when it's generally replaced in slot no matter what you do. I have no issue with buffing core to be on par with something like a thief, but that is a much bigger ask thatr would probably never come. A-net already will probably never restore the small asks, and this entire thread is probably equally pointless (why I stopped playing and even posting... I was debating if I was even going to engage you at first... But I'd rather A-net see my grievance and mock them because given the state of the game; I can rub in was right on their forums.) But there's really only so much you can ask for and expect to happen.
 

 

Both of them being garbage isn't a fantastic thing tho. All it means is you equalized the time line for them both to stay in the pit for repairs. And the point is irrelevant since as I pointed out earlier, you can give Core a defined and distinct roll, and buff it accordingly. Since AGAIN, the elite specs cannot afford the same trait lines.

 

 

Disagree but you're entitled to that opinion.

 

 

 That's a super low bar. Now conflate how easy it is to survive on Literally everything else in the game. If more than 1 class does it better and easier, given this was the intention of mirage; the design failed and is objectively underpowered.

 

 

I'll take your word for it. But from what I did play in the beta, I found it was core minus the ability to punish people you try to kite. I felt like a core mes without chaos and a worse mirror blade combo; and when I took chaos I felt like a core mes without enough damage... AND a worse mirror blade combo, lol.

 

 

Or... and hear me out here Or... You could just like Restore it's second evade and maybe fix jaunt. That would be easier than watching A-net kitten up our lines- again. And a lot faster than "We added more crit" 4 months later "This trait now hits harder" or worse and more likely after a year and a half: "We redone the whole line! but we gutted aspecs X Y and Z to make room for our new vision"; because: *insert relevant people in communication leaks*

I'm tired of this, this is why I stopped. You go on believing what you want, A-net will listen to neither of us so the point is moot. We've seen the type of things you're asking for happen for over a decade, instead of implementing the specific things that will actually fix the game. I hope you get what you want but the issues go beyond just Mesmer and it's unity between it's elite specs. All most of us want is a viable fun class to play, Even if it's power would be toned down to match the game now nothing will beat how power mirage felt in season 9/10 ish, and unlike it's condi counter part which has all the same features; it was fair and balanced.

My kittening god, literally an essay. Ill respond once I'm not on the phone.

[Yoci.2481]

At least reading this thread is more fun than actually playing Mesmer.

[SugarJohnson.4596]

2 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

At least reading this thread is more fun than actually playing Mesmer.

 

Lovely to see you again here Yoci 😊 Actually i thought about you the last day and was a little concerned because you haven’t been very active lately. Great to see you participating here. 

[Yoci.2481]

23 hours ago, SugarJohnson.4596 said:

 

Lovely to see you again here Yoci 😊 Actually i thought about you the last day and was a little concerned because you haven’t been very active lately. Great to see you participating here. 

Oh hello. 🙂 Well I basically quit when EoD was released, mostly because they ignored WvW completely and their implementation of Virtuoso. I came back to see if this "big balance patch" would be the fix we needed. But instead it's not even a step in the right direction. So... well... they won't see any money from me.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:53 AM, Daishi.6027 said:

 

idk about now but no one actually plays core side node (if we're talking to actually draw fights and fight them xv1), No one has since 2014. and Prior to the specalization patch, giving us 3 full trait lines; the amount of pros who would even run it to do this role in tounrys was nil.

 

Irrelevant how much it is played, everyone knows core Mesmer is underpowered, that's why we are having this discussion.

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Mobility for core roaming was addressed with super speed in chaos.

Yeah but it is in the wrong line (chaos is for defense, boons and condi, pretty much the opposite of what a roamer wants), AND it got nerfed by 50%. If they moved it to dueling and restored the 3s duration it would be pretty good.

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We're talking about a build that can one shot with something less consistent than a backstab, with a longer cooldown, and with 0 safety between attempts - Attempts that require the same tools you use to stay alive. 

I don't know how you draw "Damage/impact" from that. When all it needs is something like going water/earth like an ele or a way to evade spam like a thief or ranger, or escape into stealth without expending to many resources to allow you to hide the burst like the way a thief does. Mesmer has none because A-net assume illusions are enough.

 

Mesmer does have similar things to those classes - in inspiration and chaos (pu+mental anguish). But Mesmer cannot run those lines, because if you do, you don't do any damage and you have no impact. That's my point. That few classes run all defensive lines, but Mesmer kinda has to in order to have enough impact. However it would indeed be nice to get some more spread out sustain options, like cleanse.

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Which if you want to buff the traits too that's fine. But I'd argue even for defense something like inspiration/chaos do not compare to something like wilderness survival. If you want true core buffs we'd have to roll Duel and Dom into one, and everything except the mobility of chaos into insp. The more complicated or more grandiose changes the less likely A-net will do anything about it. Outside of Chrono bunk, and the glamour thing in WvW, and excluding obvious bugs; Mesmer has always been underpowered or fair, and A-net would nerf it. (or nerf the wrong thing to fix something else)

I would most like to see dueling buffs to start with, then look at domi (except power block). And fix some of the garbage skills like Arcane Thievery etc etc.

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Yes, but it has to spend ALL it's resources to doing so. This is not the same as something like thief who's burst and defensive options, although share the initiative bar; has more than enough to perform what it needs to AND THEN just needs to not stand in AoEs while in stealth; where they regain their resources and can easily refresh with little cost to their already restoring pool. Or Run away and return with little expenditure.

 

Thief runs SA in order to do this, basically the equivalent of running PU on Mesmer, but if Mesmer does that, it doesn't have enough impact, unlike the Thief. Thief would not be very survivable running Deadly Arts + Crit Strikes + Trickery.

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Every class capable of dueling or side nodeing, except for mesmer loses no momentum when having to survive waiting for their burst options. Some do it better than others sure, but only mesmer loses the war of attrition by default because of their resources. Which is why people complained so much about Mirage; because now it could win wars of attrition.
 

Mesmer can survive on the sidenode with Inspi/Chaos, but it doesn't do any damage so it cannot kill anything. Largely because our main defensive weapons, sword and staff, barely do any damage. That's why sidenode Mesmer has mostly had to resort to traits to do damage - particularly Maim the Disillusioned, Cry of Pain and the other condi traits.

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Yes, and they are better lines. The reason for this is the damage the other clases have are implicitly high, mesmer historically had a coefficent issue (tho it got better) and the fact that half it's skills as you say have no real impact. I agree for the most part

Yep, pretty much what I've been saying.

Quote

But you know what works if Mesmer has to take 2 offensive lines to compete, and has bad sustain- meanwhile everyone else has decent baseline offense and can afford two defensive lines or whatever?: Improving the baseline sustain of mesmer. Like sure, You're right to a degree, you COULD try and make it all even, give mesmer skills more impact and fix the core lines... but that requires re-working all of mesmers lines... But to re-emphasize my point: The more complicated or more grandiose changes, the less likely A-net will do anything about it. Outside of Chrono bunk, and the old glamour build in WvW, and excluding obvious bugs; Mesmer has always be underpowered or fair and A-net would STILL nerf it.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem with increasing the baseline sustain of Mesmer, I think I've suggested to add cleanse to Ether Feast for instance at some point. My argument was just pushing back on the idea that Mesmer doesn't have any option for defense - I wanted to clarify that the main difference between Mesmer and other classes instead is that it can't afford to run defensive lines because it doesn't have enough damage (i.e. is dependent on traits to do damage).

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But I am glad you're seeing where the issues are, but the part you don't seem to understand is that core mes was rushed and fairly incomplete for release... They haven't fixed it in 10 years outside of releasing elite specs that let it compete- Only to then nerf them, and most of the time being because top players were losing to it, and wanted to keep their standing. Pro players in 2013 pointed out how the "balance team" and it's collusion with other top players, along with devs particularly Karl Mclain were explicitly bias against mesmer, and would not concede any objectively correct points.

With the leak communications, you can see the demeanor among that general clique has not changed. Some of the faces maybe, but the attitude has not.

If this was 5 or 6 years ago, I would be onboard with going for what you're asking, but it takes wayyy to long for anything to get done with A-net... And that's assuming a time when A-net isn't bleeding money and had the resources. (well you know if they weren't sinking it into side projects no one gave a kitten about.)

(This was one of many already kitten contexts, fixing one aspect doesn't make or break a class, and I'd argue they didn't even wholly fix it in a good way)
 

Do you have any source that core Mesmer was rushed and unfinished?

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No, and I'll point it out again. The issue with Core is that it's fundamentally broken and it's not going to be fixed, it needs way to much of a comprehensive re-work and that's just not happening, and that is a WAY more complicated fix than Restoring distortion, Restoring second evade, and then doing a couple number based balance tweaks. and idk what to do with Virtuoso I haven't really played enough of it to assess, but from what I have in the betas felt pretty garbage and has less than core, by giving up the parts that made core useful. Leaked communications pretty much pointed out Virtuoso is supposed to be "easier to use core mes", which is pretty telling.

EVEN IF you buff core, remember- there was a time when core mesmer had a lot of what we're asking for; It couldn't even compete then. You could argue it's elite spec would push it out of the meta- I'd argue it wouldn't, because while mirage was side nodding, core could roam in ways mirage couldn't; because Mirage couldn't afford chaos nor massinvis. 

This along with the points we both made about the trait lines is the trade off CMC was looking for- he failed to realize: ALL of Mesmer's elite specs inherently come with one.

Which is why they should be restored. I'm also in favor of returning the nerfs made to core. Because even at the height of mirage's power the issue is rooted in condi and it's application. (another thing a-net can't seem to balance)

"The issue with Core is that it's fundamentally broken"

This is just a nonsense statement, if core Mesmer is fundamentally broken then so is Chrono, it's literally the exact same spec but with some quickless and alac tacked on. It plays 95% the same. Core isn't more or less "fundamentally broken" than Chronomancer.

"ALL of Mesmer's elite specs inherently come with one [a tradeoff]".

Only insofar as EVERY spec in the game comes with one, because you have to give up a core traitline, but both Chrono and Mirage were INCOMPARABLY much better than core before distortion was removed from Chrono and a dodge from Mirage. Core Power roamer Mesmers was never better than Power Mirage, it was just used to oneshot randoms in unranked/ranked. Now I would say that Chrono is fairly balanced compared to core but Mirage is still a bit too strong compared to those two.

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It's impossible because A-net will not make those changes. Plain and simple, if we ask for things that would could MAYBE get a fun and fair class to play.

Fun to me is where there is more than ~2 options, both of them being Mirage. When core and chrono are "decent enough". That would also be better for the game as a whole because those two are inherently far more fair than Mirage with the exception of PU oneshot (I've advocated for PU to be removed for years).

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Let's say we took your suggestion, giving Core Portal on F5 no matter how hypothetical. Question is is how does this affect the others? Does this now mean that all 4 get it?- it can't because you specified the part I underlined.
If alternatively you mean that for example Mirage's trade off would be to lose the F5 portal functionality, I'm fine with that if Mirage got it's second evade back in return... But that doesn't seem to be what you're implying?

Of course all four wouldn't get it, the whole point is that only core Mesmer would get it.

Quote

Pretty low bar.

No, I said that it is pretty balanced "compared to chrono" which is a pretty high bar because few elite specs and core specs are fairly balanced compared to each other, even though that is what we should be striving towards.

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Look, Core has a role.

It does? What is that role? PU oneshot roamer? Condi staff sidenoder?

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You can buff it so it improves that roll I don't see an issue with that. But you can't sit here and tell me that Core is balanced relative to the rest of the game even with buffs, when it's generally replaced in slot no matter what you do.

When on earth did I say that core is balanced relative to the rest of the game. I said that it is relatively balanced compared to Chronomancer, which is good, but that core and Chrono are both some of the worst specs in the game which is why I want core Mesmer buffs (which would also buff Chrono) - you seem to be against this.

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I have no issue with buffing core to be on par with something like a thief, but that is a much bigger ask thatr would probably never come. A-net already will probably never restore the small asks, and this entire thread is probably equally pointless (why I stopped playing and even posting... I was debating if I was even going to engage you at first... But I'd rather A-net see my grievance and mock them because given the state of the game; I can rub in was right on their forums.) But there's really only so much you can ask for and expect to happen.

Buff some of the core traitlines, rework a couple skills, buff portal, then nerf a couple of the more toxic things on Mirage. Seems fairly doable.

Quote

Both of them being garbage isn't a fantastic thing tho. All it means is you equalized the time line for them both to stay in the pit for repairs. And the point is irrelevant since as I pointed out earlier, you can give Core a defined and distinct roll, and buff it accordingly. Since AGAIN, the elite specs cannot afford the same trait lines.

Would would you give core a "defined and distinct role", the whole point of the trait system is that you can choose role based on what traitlines and traits you pick.

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Disagree but you're entitled to that opinion.

You disagree with the fact that something that misses stationary targets constantly is more clunky than just having one dodge? Well you can think what you want but like look at this: 

 

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 That's a super low bar. Now conflate how easy it is to survive on Literally everything else in the game. If more than 1 class does it better and easier, given this was the intention of mirage; the design failed and is objectively underpowered.
 

Honestly, Mirage with defensive traitlines (inspi chaos) is probably one of the easiest specs to survive on, except some of the overpowered ones in EoD like Bladesworn and whatnot.

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I'll take your word for it. But from what I did play in the beta, I found it was core minus the ability to punish people you try to kite. I felt like a core mes without chaos and a worse mirror blade combo; and when I took chaos I felt like a core mes without enough damage... AND a worse mirror blade combo, lol.

It has been buffed quite a lot so I would say that it is better than Core and Chrono now, but it's not great and pretty clunky. But once again they did the mistake of just powercreeping some of its skills (Blade Renewal and Bladeturn Requiem in particular) instead of fixing some of the mechanical issues and buffing core (which would obviously benefit Virtuoso). Like how can anybody expect an elite spec to be good if the core class is garbage? That would mean that the elite spec would have to be powercrept to insanity to make up for the lacking core spec - Bladesworn is an example of this.

Quote

Or... and hear me out here Or... You could just like Restore it's second evade and maybe fix jaunt. That would be easier than watching A-net kitten up our lines- again. And a lot faster than "We added more crit" 4 months later "This trait now hits harder" or worse and more likely after a year and a half: "We redone the whole line! but we gutted aspecs X Y and Z to make room for our new vision"; because: *insert relevant people in communication leaks*

I'm tired of this, this is why I stopped. You go on believing what you want, A-net will listen to neither of us so the point is moot.

I mean Anet will kitten things up regardless, and won't read this, so this thread is just a hypothetical discussion. So I agree with this "A-net will listen to neither of us so the point is moot".

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We've seen the type of things you're asking for happen for over a decade, instead of implementing the specific things that will actually fix the game.

Buffing Mirage while leaving Core/Chrono/Virtuoso rotting would not "fix the game". The game wouldn't really become more enjoyable just because you have managed to shoehorn Mirage into the same kitten meta. You need to actually properly implement the following steps:

- Buff underpowered and fun things.

- Nerf overpowered or unfun things.

- Strive towards reasonable inter-profession balance and intra-profession balance.

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I hope you get what you want but the issues go beyond just Mesmer and it's unity between it's elite specs. All most of us want is a viable fun class to play, Even if it's power would be toned down to match the game now nothing will beat how power mirage felt in season 9/10 ish, and unlike it's condi counter part which has all the same features; it was fair and balanced.

I get it, you are a power Mirage fan similar to Jazz, so you will naturally be biased in favor of it. I like Power Mirage too, but I like core and Chrono just as much or more.

"nothing will beat how power mirage felt in season 9/10 ish"

I'd say core power in 2014/2015 beat it and maybe early power Chrono.

Edited July 3, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Please give me more confused emojis and fewer comments

[Daishi.6027]

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Irrelevant how much it is played, everyone knows core Mesmer is underpowered, that's why we are having this discussion.

The point I was making was about side node, not about it's over all usage. "no one plays it to side node" like the way any other build not designed to side node isn't played to side node. It could side node before the specialization patch and maybe a bit after since it's thief matchup was a little closer.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yeah but it is in the wrong line (chaos is for defense, boons and condi, pretty much the opposite of what a roamer wants)

To some degree true, but the super speed is tied to stealth, and Chaos is the stealth line. Considering Stealth is something mesmer relies on for it's roaming I'd argue it IS the proper line. Problem is since Dom and Duel are taken you can't slot illusions- and even if you could slot illusions you'd still lack the same frequency of attack, survivability, and stealth compared to a thief taking Trickery and Shadow arts.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

AND it got nerfed by 50%.

Par for the course at this point. THIS is the thing I'm getting tired of.
A-net, the scrubs in gold, an the decent people who want to remove a rival to compete with be like : "Mesmer has a viable role! Quick! Nerf it by 50%"

You know... Like the kittening evade- like we're arguing about now.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Mesmer does have similar things to those classes - in inspiration and chaos (pu+mental anguish) But Mesmer cannot run those lines, because if you do, you don't do any damage and you have no impact. That's my point. That few classes run all defensive lines, but Mesmer kinda has to in order to have enough impact. However it would indeed be nice to get some more spread out sustain options, like cleanse.

I'm sorry but no. These are not similar in anyway. Ele going Water to Earth offers coverage against most burst options and is available again long before the opponents options, and setup for their options return. Thief and Ranger evade spam and lines that enable it are not only more synergistic, but are up far more frequently than the limited access to stealth that PU scales off of. When a mesmer can whiff, stay in stealth, AND still have enough stealth+blink to retry their mirror blade combo- and the ability to escape on a second whiff; ONLY THEN we can pretend this is analogous in anyway.

What I'm saying is that even if those lines were diverse, even IF you could take more defensive lines; the issue at hand is that wilderness survival is better than Chaos+Insp combined. Why?????????? Because A-net thinks illusions are enough. - They aren't.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I would most like to see dueling buffs to start with, then look at domi (except power block). And fix some of the garbage skills like Arcane Thievery etc etc.

I think it needs away more of an overhaul than this. But I mean, I'm for it.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Thief runs SA in order to do this, basically the equivalent of running PU on Mesmer, but if Mesmer does that, it doesn't have enough impact, unlike the Thief.

I think we're getting bogged down on the definition of impact. But "Impact" unless you simply mean "effectiveness" isn't the issue at hand, the problem is Mesmer has a line to buff stealth but has far too limited access to stealth and over committed on their bar that has to many mandatories to be decent as it is. Compared to thief who can spend just spend 9 ini, a very uncostly resource when trickery is literally restoring, to grant 4 seconds of stealth on their best pvp weapon set, while getting a ton of value including movement speed, cleaning, etc. Meanwhile mesmer stealth cooldowns are all around 30 seconds if not more (lol decoy 40 wtf.), and relying on relatively slow methods of doing damage.

(Just wanna point out even ranger can stealth more. Especially against a mesmer who's illusions don't evade unless mirage- but oh wait we cut that in half. 😒)

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Thief would not be very survivable running Deadly Arts + Crit Strikes + Trickery.

Yeah, except Thief with this can still evade more than Mirage outside of desert distortion which... I also have issues with (on demand evade will always be superior to lengthy durations, and things that you have to literally walk on.. and that's not even mentioning that in longer fights even with desert distortion Mirage ends up with less over time), let alone core Mesmer. Which is a problem even if we ignore that deadly arts alone is enough to out pace dom+dueling.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Mesmer can survive on the sidenode with Inspi/Chaos, but it doesn't do any damage so it cannot kill anything. Largely because our main defensive weapons, sword and staff, barely do any damage. That's why sidenode Mesmer has mostly had to resort to traits to do damage - particularly Maim the Disillusioned, Cry of Pain and the other condi traits.

idk if it's your point or not, but just to point out even before things like mh sword were nerfed it was still kind of a bad side-noder compared to the others until mirage, and before that Chrono before alacrity got nerfed. At least for as you point out, power builds. But this is why everyone keeps going condi, I've even seen rumblings of it for virtuoso too (and everyone at the time called me crazy lol)

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

My argument was just pushing back on the idea that Mesmer doesn't have any option for defense - I wanted to clarify that the main difference between Mesmer and other classes instead is that it can't afford to run defensive lines because it doesn't have enough damage (i.e. is dependent on traits to do damage).

To be clear, it has no viable options for defense. And my argument is that it doesn't do damage, and doesn't have good defensive lines; because the class was not designed well. They rushed it for release, didn't like the standards it applied to the game- and started gutting it without offering enough concessions to let it thrive- everything was a gut and a nerf. The reason for which being the misattribution of how powerful illusions actually are when people actually understand the mechanic- and it's incredibly weak compared to literally anything else. This is also why virtuoso fails in pvp, because it's built off a core designed class that had all the baseline strength stripped away from it. Sure, there is the dependence on traits to do pretty much anything, that isn't incorrect; But the synergy isn't there, there wasn't enough time to establish it properly. 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Do you have any source that core Mesmer was rushed and unfinished?

Not that I can cite without getting people in trouble over NDA. But to be more accurate: rushed is more apt, "unfinished" is the reasonable inference when you look at the first year or two of the game, and the lack of synergy of the traits even then.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"The issue with Core is that it's fundamentally broken"
 

This is just a nonsense statement, if core Mesmer is fundamentally broken then so is Chrono, it's literally the exact same spec but with some quickless and alac tacked on. It plays 95% the same. Core isn't more or less "fundamentally broken" than Chronomancer.

It's not nonsense. Chrono originally fixed the issue that of the lengthy cooldowns and over commitment given to core, allowing it to have the resources it needed to compete. It allowed for more frequency with chrono split and chrono phantasma. Outside of the utility skills, for PvP Chrono originally was like the Trickery line of Mesmer. Chorno is honestly how core mesmer should have been released. And if you want trade offs playing give and take from that.

But then... 50% Nerfs lol.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

"ALL of Mesmer's elite specs inherently come with one [a tradeoff]".

Only insofar as EVERY spec in the game comes with one, because you have to give up a core traitline, but neither Chrono nor Mirage were INCOMPARABLY much better than core before distortion was removed from Chrono and a dodge from Mirage.

I strongly disagree. Every 1v1 matchup was far more fair and in line and equal. In both instances, the class didn't lose to simple factors of attrition until heavy nerfs. A standard which was only discouraged when Cele ele existed, but now CMC praises it as a gold standard, and the double standard is that everyone is allowed to remain neutral until mistakes are made except for mesmer who loses because of resource limitations. (by resources I don't JUST mean illusions btw I hope this is clear)

As for your claim about chrono, until they did some weird buffs with danger time (that were also quickly nerfed) people went condi pretty quick (implying the reliance on traits to do damage as you pointed out earlier) after the alacrity nerf, because it was safer and higher damage for lower investment.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Core Power roamer Mesmers was never better than Power Mirage, it was just used to oneshot randoms in unranked/ranked.

Core Power roamer was better than Power Mirage at roaming. Core power roamer being able to slot chaos forced the opposing team to focus really well on map awareness or get nuked, arguably it did this even better than thief (to bad it couldn't actually fight if it whiffed). It couldn't 1v1 on a point like power mirage, but that also wasn't it's role. Power Mirage with a distinct lack of stealth made mirror blade combo far more out playable.

Yes- sure Core Power wasn't "good" by a meta standard even though people complained even until that was nerfed too. (I remember fighting in that thread for a long time too lol. But I guess mesmer can't have anything ever. Meanwhile thief go Brrrrrrrr) But it had a defined role and it was better than mirage at it.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Now I would say that Chrono is fairly balanced compared to core but Mirage is still a bit too strong compared to those two.

This here is why people think you're probably trolling and you get a bunch of confused faces. Chrono is only fairly balanced compared to core because, Chrono got nerfed to garbage, like how Core is garbage, and it took buffing Chaos- a line the others can't really afford to take, to make core not garbage in a very spicic way that was still inferior to theif, meanwhile at a time when Chorno was garbage. Only for Core to be made garbage again.

Like honestly... If all 4 are garbage, and Mirage is "too strong" but Mirage is the only one that can compete in a very specific way by relying on condi [so traits and crap as we've established].  (that is still, as pointed out much earlier by other people, doesn't even have top player victories in tourneys) Then the response should be to bring everything to Mirage's level- AND buff mirage. now sure you can do that by buffing core up the wazoo... But then you still retain the pointless negative on Mirage that shouldn't even exist. If you want to puff Core mes in ways that are kind of crazy and fun like giving it portal on a f5, but then Mirage being restored to how it was and NOT get these new things like that from core; 100% with you go do it. But to say mirage shouldn't get it's second evade because you want to buff core is not reasonable, and I promise you it will not be as effective as you seem to think it will be. 

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Fun to me is where there is more than ~2 options, both of them being Mirage. When core and chrono are "decent enough".

You can buff core so it leans into the roamer roll, and you can buff chrono in ways irrespective of mirage. This isn't mutually exclusive to mirage getting it's 2nd evade back.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

That would also be better for the game as a whole because those two are inherently far more fair than Mirage

Lmao, "far more fair" The only thing that made mirage OP was it's condi application. If it's survivability was what made it unfair that is a double standard to the rest of the game.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

with the exception of PU oneshot (I've advocated for PU to be removed for years).

I don't really see the issue. PU was more of a problem when Phantasms were omnipresent the one shot can be countered by map awareness and if they whiff they are kind of screwed and unlike a thief can be chased unless they use selfish portal.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

No, I said that it is pretty balanced "compared to chrono" which is a pretty high bar because few elite specs and core specs are fairly balanced compared to each other, even though that is what we should be striving towards.

Omg and if that is inconsistent with the REST OF THE GAME forcing that standard on a class does nothing more than kitten the class. 

Let's say I agree and that is a standard we should be striving for... That involves rebuilding core memser to not be garbage and as synergistically well designed as the likes of ranger, thief, ele, etc. And to make it on par with everything, by either nerfing or buffing everything up to this new standard; and somewhere in there re-forming the elite specs around the new core mesmer. Even if this were the objectively best thing we could do, it's not a realistic thing to argue for. A-net's arm could maybe be twisted into giving it's second evade back. Looking at the hindsight CMC realizing it 's a bad idea type of thing. But what you expect is to many resources and a long fought endeavor. 

Unless you somehow think core mesmer is actually viable and good... We have all the time prior to HoT, prior to the specialization patch even; to show that it's actually not.
 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It does? What is that role? PU oneshot roamer? Condi staff sidenoder?

Idk how it is since the nerfs, it honestly never should have been nerfed. But yeah One shot roamer- it actually had a decent affect on the meta and forced players to be more cognizant of map awareness and enemy movements or get punished for it.

It's not unfair you can avoid any stealth one shot from any class with any bit of anticipation and reads- the only reason why PU roamer was strong and had any amount of value was that unlike a thief who could delay their stealth virtually in front of you, and could refresh their stealth on a whim, and let you waste your much longer to refresh defensive resources (which is a lot less fair than PU's single attempt)... PU would go half way across a map and maybe nuke you if you don't take precautions. But a whiff would be a lot worse for them than it would be for the thief.

You might not like it- but you said you fun was more than two builds. You seem to have no accepted what happens if you dislike the available builds. For the longest time in PvP every class had 1 or 2 viable builds irrespective of elite specs, with a few exceptions from the medium classes, idk if that's true now; but I'd presume it's likely.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

When on earth did I say that core is balanced relative to the rest of the game.

You didn't, you probably couldn't gauge from the inflection but I'm merely saying you can't tell me such, and that's the problem with your argument you're focusing on it only in relation to mirage.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I said that it is relatively balanced compared to Chronomancer, which is good, but that core and Chrono are both some of the worst specs in the game which is why I want core Mesmer buffs (which would also buff Chrono) - you seem to be against this.

No you mistake me. I don't care one way or another if core is balanced to Chrono. At no spot in the game is this standard being applied, does Core of any class Raid? I actually don't know, but I'd have to presume if anything does it's the exception and not the rule. You can argue it should, but this forum thread isn't for that, you're talking about all the classes.

I also am perfectly fine for core mesmer buffs.

I'm also all for Chrono getting Chrono Phantasma back and us getting 3 viable specs. - This is what you seem to be against.
4 if you count virtuoso getting buffed.

What I'm against is keeping mirage with one evade, and the argument that buffing core to the point of viablility somehow negates mirage from having it's second evade restored... Especially when you yourself gave examples that would buff it in a way that would not impact mirage.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Buff some of the core traitlines, rework a couple skills, buff portal

You can do all this and Core mirage will still not be viable- Sorry.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

then nerf a couple of the more toxic things on Mirage. Seems fairly doable.

Ya- We told A-net what to focus on at the time and make PvP/PvE splits if it screwed with raids. They ignored us; instead they started to nerf everything else until CMC went "Hold my beer!"

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Would would you give core a "defined and distinct role", the whole point of the trait system is that you can choose role based on what traitlines and traits you pick.

This is a very old anti-meta ideology for gw2. One that is not consistent with the game nor functional within it's current systems. Even if you could argue that this is what we should strive for, it's been 10 years and the status quo has mostly been the same. The faces change, and the details sometimes differ; but the context is the same.
 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You disagree with the fact that something that misses stationary targets constantly is more clunky than just having one dodge? Well you can think what you want but like look at this: 

That's not what I was disagreeing to. I was disagreeing with your perspective of mirage's over all clunk, and saying you can have that perspective if you want.
 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Honestly, Mirage with defensive traitlines (inspi chaos) is probably one of the easiest specs to survive on, except some of the overpowered ones in EoD like Bladesworn and whatnot.

Yes, you can get survivability equal to a ranger with Wilderness Survival and BM (Fun fact there was a few 1v1 player run tournies at the time that actually banned used of these two traits together.) To bad you do no damage, have worse pets, and they do damage  even without marksman allowing them to take an elite spec; AND they get to hold the point. idk what's changed or if that's even viable anymore; but I'm sure even if this isn't accurate now there's something similarly apt.

That's the standard I want for mirage. If you want other mesmer's to have roles too that's fine, but you will probably never be able to get core to side node against the rest of the game without a complete overhaul.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

It has been buffed quite a lot so I would say that it is better than Core and Chrono now, but it's not great and pretty clunky. But once again they did the mistake of just powercreeping some of its skills (Blade Renewal and Bladeturn Requiem in particular) instead of fixing some of the mechanical issues and buffing core (which would obviously benefit Virtuoso).

A-net is incentivized to not make mechanical changes. It's a lot of effort and resources on their part that they'd rather not spend so they usually just keep adjusting numbers.

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Like how can anybody expect an elite spec to be good if the core class is garbage?

I mean this is my argument for why Chorno and Mirage did not need trade offs, and why I called it inherent. 

Where we disagree is how far that "garbage" goes. You think just buffing core would be enough- I think you need an entire mechanical overhaul to make core "good", and I'm basing that by comparing it to other core classes.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I mean Anet will kitten things up regardless, and won't read this, so this thread is just a hypothetical discussion. So I agree with this "A-net will listen to neither of us so the point is moot".

This is why I mostly quit. Really I'm only even active on the forums now cuz of you.

kitten! let me enjoy my remorseful melancholic retirement!😜 While I complain endlessly like a grizzled war veteran... Or I guess more like an abused spouse is more accurate?

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Buffing Mirage while leaving Core/Chrono/Virtuoso rotting would not "fix the game". The game wouldn't really become more enjoyable just because you have managed to shoehorn Mirage into the same kitten meta.

I mean that's what they did to mirage in the first place tho when they realized they couldn't balance condi mirage...

You know A-net INSTEAD OF LISTENING AT THE TIME.

But in all seriousness, No it wont. But what it will do is take away the clunk to our only viable pvp build.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

You need to actually properly implement the following steps:

- Buff underpowered and fun things.

- Nerf overpowered or unfun things.

- Strive towards reasonable inter-profession balance and intra-profession balance.

They had 10 years to get it right. I preached the exact same stuff at the time, everything that was objective was Ignored every time, things aren't getting better; I want to play a build I used to enjoy and was at the very least fair. No one complained about it at the time, it wasn't taking top slots, it's only sin was the condi variant had to much output and that's the part that needed to be fixed. 

Your first step is rare, your second step pretty much never happens and if it does it's a double standard against mesmer for all the reasons I've listed before. The last one has always confliced with the double standards of the second and that's why GW2 was dropped from ESL and why Petting Zoo, and Hambow, and old cele ele, and all the other crap that persists till now existed and I have to assume even from not playing continues to exist.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I get it, you are a power Mirage fan similar to Jazz, so you will naturally be biased in favor of it

I do have a bias towards it, but I don't think I have an unrealistic one- nor do I misrepresent it. Everything I've said about it was factually accurate. I'm not looking for it to be the apex predator; I'm biased towards it because it was fun, and fair. Everyone had the tools to beat you, and you had the tools to beat almost everyone, even the DareDevil matchup was relatively fair- the most balanced mes v thief matchup since release. Both playing optimally would end in a stalemate and you'd be pushing for your opponents mistakes.

It is my belief that ALL classes in this game should follow this standard.

 

 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:59 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I like Power Mirage too, but I like core and Chrono just as much or more.

"nothing will beat how power mirage felt in season 9/10 ish"

I'd say core power in 2014/2015 beat it and maybe early power Chrono.

I LOVED early power Chrono too, I like Power mirage a bit more cuz I have a bias towards big beams, but I really did love this too, and personally I wasn't super fond of all these danger time centric builds that would be buffed into viability then quickly nerfed out- but those had their charm too. I even pointed out what Chrono fixed for core when it first came out earlier in my post.

...But I've acquiesced that we're not getting that back; and I think that's still irrelevant to asking for the second evade.

Also I'm not leaving you confused faces (except I did on that one cuz I think it's funny.)

Edited July 3, 2022 by Daishi.6027

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 hour ago, Daishi.6027 said:

The point I was making was about side node, not about it's over all usage. "no one plays it to side node" like the way any other build not designed to side node isn't played to side node. It could side node before the specialization patch and maybe a bit after since it's thief matchup was a little closer.

 

 

To some degree true, but the super speed is tied to stealth, and Chaos is the stealth line. Considering Stealth is something mesmer relies on for it's roaming I'd argue it IS the proper line. Problem is since Dom and Duel are taken you can't slot illusions- and even if you could slot illusions you'd still lack the same frequency of attack, survivability, and stealth compared to a thief taking Trickery and Shadow arts.

 

 

Par for the course at this point. THIS is the thing I'm getting tired of.
A-net, the scrubs in gold, an the decent people who want to remove a rival to compete with be like : "Mesmer has a viable role! Quick! Nerf it by 50%"

You know... Like the kittening evade- like we're arguing about now.

 

 

I'm sorry but no. These are not similar in anyway. Ele going Water to Earth offers coverage against most burst options and is available again long before the opponents options, and setup for their options return. Thief and Ranger evade spam and lines that enable it are not only more synergistic, but are up far more frequently than the limited access to stealth that PU scales off of. When a mesmer can whiff, stay in stealth, AND still have enough stealth+blink to retry their mirror blade combo- and the ability to escape on a second whiff; ONLY THEN we can pretend this is analogous in anyway.

What I'm saying is that even if those lines were diverse, even IF you could take more defensive lines; the issue at hand is that wilderness survival is better than Chaos+Insp combined. Why?????????? Because A-net thinks illusions are enough. - They aren't.

 

 

I think it needs away more of an overhaul than this. But I mean, I'm for it.

 

 

I think we're getting bogged down on the definition of impact. But "Impact" unless you simply mean "effectiveness" isn't the issue at hand, the problem is Mesmer has a line to buff stealth but has far too limited access to stealth and over committed on their bar that has to many mandatories to be decent as it is. Compared to thief who can spend just spend 9 ini, a very uncostly resource when trickery is literally restoring, to grant 4 seconds of stealth on their best pvp weapon set, while getting a ton of value including movement speed, cleaning, etc. Meanwhile mesmer stealth cooldowns are all around 30 seconds if not more (lol decoy 40 wtf.), and relying on relatively slow methods of doing damage.

(Just wanna point out even ranger can stealth more. Especially against a mesmer who's illusions don't evade unless mirage- but oh wait we cut that in half. 😒)

 

 

Yeah, except Thief with this can still evade more than Mirage outside of desert distortion which... I also have issues with (on demand evade will always be superior to lengthy durations, and things that you have to literally walk on.. and that's not even mentioning that in longer fights even with desert distortion Mirage ends up with less over time), let alone core Mesmer. Which is a problem even if we ignore that deadly arts alone is enough to out pace dom+dueling.

 

 

idk if it's your point or not, but just to point out even before things like mh sword were nerfed it was still kind of a bad side-noder compared to the others until mirage, and before that Chrono before alacrity got nerfed. At least for as you point out, power builds. But this is why everyone keeps going condi, I've even seen rumblings of it for virtuoso too (and everyone at the time called me crazy lol)

 

 

To be clear, it has no viable options for defense. And my argument is that it doesn't do damage, and doesn't have good defensive lines; because the class was not designed well. They rushed it for release, didn't like the standards it applied to the game- and started gutting it without offering enough concessions to let it thrive- everything was a gut and a nerf. The reason for which being the misattribution of how powerful illusions actually are when people actually understand the mechanic- and it's incredibly weak compared to literally anything else. This is also why virtuoso fails in pvp, because it's built off a core designed class that had all the baseline strength stripped away from it. Sure, there is the dependence on traits to do pretty much anything, that isn't incorrect; But the synergy isn't there, there wasn't enough time to establish it properly. 

 

Not that I can cite without getting people in trouble over NDA. But to be more accurate: rushed is more apt, "unfinished" is the reasonable inference when you look at the first year or two of the game, and the lack of synergy of the traits even then.

 

 

It's not nonsense. Chrono originally fixed the issue that of the lengthy cooldowns and over commitment given to core, allowing it to have the resources it needed to compete. It allowed for more frequency with chrono split and chrono phantasma. Outside of the utility skills, for PvP Chrono originally was like the Trickery line of Mesmer. Chorno is honestly how core mesmer should have been released. And if you want trade offs playing give and take from that.

But then... 50% Nerfs lol.

 

 

I strongly disagree. Every 1v1 matchup was far more fair and in line and equal. In both instances, the class didn't lose to simple factors of attrition until heavy nerfs. A standard which was only discouraged when Cele ele existed, but now CMC praises it as a gold standard, and the double standard is that everyone is allowed to remain neutral until mistakes are made except for mesmer who loses because of resource limitations. (by resources I don't JUST mean illusions btw I hope this is clear)

As for your claim about chrono, until they did some weird buffs with danger time (that were also quickly nerfed) people went condi pretty quick (implying the reliance on traits to do damage as you pointed out earlier) after the alacrity nerf, because it was safer and higher damage for lower investment.

 

 

Core Power roamer was better than Power Mirage at roaming. Core power roamer being able to slot chaos forced the opposing team to focus really well on map awareness or get nuked, arguably it did this even better than thief (to bad it couldn't actually fight if it whiffed). It couldn't 1v1 on a point like power mirage, but that also wasn't it's role. Power Mirage with a distinct lack of stealth made mirror blade combo far more out playable.

Yes- sure Core Power wasn't "good" by a meta standard even though people complained even until that was nerfed too. (I remember fighting in that thread for a long time too lol. But I guess mesmer can't have anything ever. Meanwhile thief go Brrrrrrrr) But it had a defined role and it was better than mirage at it.

 

 

This here is why people think you're probably trolling and you get a bunch of confused faces. Chrono is only fairly balanced compared to core because, Chrono got nerfed to garbage, like how Core is garbage, and it took buffing Chaos- a line the others can't really afford to take, to make core not garbage in a very spicic way that was still inferior to theif, meanwhile at a time when Chorno was garbage. Only for Core to be made garbage again.

Like honestly... If all 4 are garbage, and Mirage is "too strong" but Mirage is the only one that can compete in a very specific way by relying on condi [so traits and crap as we've established].  (that is still, as pointed out much earlier by other people, doesn't even have top player victories in tourneys) Then the response should be to bring everything to Mirage's level- AND buff mirage. now sure you can do that by buffing core up the wazoo... But then you still retain the pointless negative on Mirage that shouldn't even exist. If you want to puff Core mes in ways that are kind of crazy and fun like giving it portal on a f5, but then Mirage being restored to how it was and NOT get these new things like that from core; 100% with you go do it. But to say mirage shouldn't get it's second evade because you want to buff core is not reasonable, and I promise you it will not be as effective as you seem to think it will be. 

 

 

You can buff core so it leans into the roamer roll, and you can buff chrono in ways irrespective of mirage. This isn't mutually exclusive to mirage getting it's 2nd evade back.

 

 

Lmao, "far more fair" The only thing that made mirage OP was it's condi application. If it's survivability was what made it unfair that is a double standard to the rest of the game.

 

 

I don't really see the issue. PU was more of a problem when Phantasms were omnipresent the one shot can be countered by map awareness and if they whiff they are kind of screwed and unlike a thief can be chased unless they use selfish portal.

 

 

Omg and if that is inconsistent with the REST OF THE GAME forcing that standard on a class does nothing more than kitten the class. 

Let's say I agree and that is a standard we should be striving for... That involves rebuilding core memser to not be garbage and as synergistically well designed as the likes of ranger, thief, ele, etc. And to make it on par with everything, by either nerfing or buffing everything up to this new standard; and somewhere in there re-forming the elite specs around the new core mesmer. Even if this were the objectively best thing we could do, it's not a realistic thing to argue for. A-net's arm could maybe be twisted into giving it's second evade back. Looking at the hindsight CMC realizing it 's a bad idea type of thing. But what you expect is to many resources and a long fought endeavor. 

Unless you somehow think core mesmer is actually viable and good... We have all the time prior to HoT, prior to the specialization patch even; to show that it's actually not.
 

 

Idk how it is since the nerfs, it honestly never should have been nerfed. But yeah One shot roamer- it actually had a decent affect on the meta and forced players to be more cognizant of map awareness and enemy movements or get punished for it.

It's not unfair you can avoid any stealth one shot from any class with any bit of anticipation and reads- the only reason why PU roamer was strong and had any amount of value was that unlike a thief who could delay their stealth virtually in front of you, and could refresh their stealth on a whim, and let you waste your much longer to refresh defensive resources (which is a lot less fair than PU's single attempt)... PU would go half way across a map and maybe nuke you if you don't take precautions. But a whiff would be a lot worse for them than it would be for the thief.

You might not like it- but you said you fun was more than two builds. You seem to have no accepted what happens if you dislike the available builds. For the longest time in PvP every class had 1 or 2 viable builds irrespective of elite specs, with a few exceptions from the medium classes, idk if that's true now; but I'd presume it's likely.

 

 

You didn't, you probably couldn't gauge from the inflection but I'm merely saying you can't tell me such, and that's the problem with your argument you're focusing on it only in relation to mirage.

 

 

No you mistake me. I don't care one way or another if core is balanced to Chrono. At no spot in the game is this standard being applied, does Core of any class Raid? I actually don't know, but I'd have to presume if anything does it's the exception and not the rule. You can argue it should, but this forum thread isn't for that, you're talking about all the classes.

I also am perfectly fine for core mesmer buffs.

I'm also all for Chrono getting Chrono Phantasma back and us getting 3 viable specs. - This is what you seem to be against.
4 if you count virtuoso getting buffed.

What I'm against is keeping mirage with one evade, and the argument that buffing core to the point of viablility somehow negates mirage from having it's second evade restored... Especially when you yourself gave examples that would buff it in a way that would not impact mirage.

 

 

You can do all this and Core mirage will still not be viable- Sorry.

 

 

Ya- We told A-net what to focus on at the time and make PvP/PvE splits if it screwed with raids. They ignored us; instead they started to nerf everything else until CMC went "Hold my beer!"

 

 

This is a very old anti-meta ideology for gw2. One that is not consistent with the game nor functional within it's current systems. Even if you could argue that this is what we should strive for, it's been 10 years and the status quo has mostly been the same. The faces change, and the details sometimes differ; but the context is the same.
 

 

That's not what I was disagreeing to. I was disagreeing with your perspective of mirage's over all clunk, and saying you can have that perspective if you want.
 

 

Yes, you can get survivability equal to a ranger with Wilderness Survival and BM (Fun fact there was a few 1v1 player run tournies at the time that actually banned used of these two traits together.) To bad you do no damage, have worse pets, and they do damage  even without marksman allowing them to take an elite spec; AND they get to hold the point. idk what's changed or if that's even viable anymore; but I'm sure even if this isn't accurate now there's something similarly apt.

That's the standard I want for mirage. If you want other mesmer's to have roles too that's fine, but you will probably never be able to get core to side node against the rest of the game without a complete overhaul.

 

 

A-net is incentivized to not make mechanical changes. It's a lot of effort and resources on their part that they'd rather not spend so they usually just keep adjusting numbers.

 

I mean this is my argument for why Chorno and Mirage did not need trade offs, and why I called it inherent. 

Where we disagree is how far that "garbage" goes. You think just buffing core would be enough- I think you need an entire mechanical overhaul to make core "good", and I'm basing that by comparing it to other core classes.

 

 

This is why I mostly quit. Really I'm only even active on the forums now cuz of you.

kitten! let me enjoy my remorseful melancholic retirement!😜 While I complain endlessly like a grizzled war veteran... Or I guess more like an abused spouse is more accurate?

 

I mean that's what they did to mirage in the first place tho when they realized they couldn't balance condi mirage...

You know A-net INSTEAD OF LISTENING AT THE TIME.

But in all seriousness, No it wont. But what it will do is take away the clunk to our only viable pvp build.

 

 

They had 10 years to get it right. I preached the exact same stuff at the time, everything that was objective was Ignored every time, things aren't getting better; I want to play a build I used to enjoy and was at the very least fair. No one complained about it at the time, it wasn't taking top slots, it's only sin was the condi variant had to much output and that's the part that needed to be fixed. 

Your first step is rare, your second step pretty much never happens and if it does it's a double standard against mesmer for all the reasons I've listed before. The last one has always confliced with the double standards of the second and that's why GW2 was dropped from ESL and why Petting Zoo, and Hambow, and old cele ele, and all the other crap that persists till now existed and I have to assume even from not playing continues to exist.

 

 

I do have a bias towards it, but I don't think I have an unrealistic one- nor do I misrepresent it. Everything I've said about it was factually accurate. I'm not looking for it to be the apex predator; I'm biased towards it because it was fun, and fair. Everyone had the tools to beat you, and you had the tools to beat almost everyone, even the DareDevil matchup was relatively fair- the most balanced mes v thief matchup since release. Both playing optimally would end in a stalemate and you'd be pushing for your opponents mistakes.

It is my belief that ALL classes in this game should follow this standard.

 

 

I LOVED early power Chrono too, I like Power mirage a bit more cuz I have a bias towards big beams, but I really did love this too, and personally I wasn't super fond of all these danger time centric builds that would be buffed into viability then quickly nerfed out- but those had their charm too. I even pointed out what Chrono fixed for core when it first came out earlier in my post.

...But I've acquiesced that we're not getting that back; and I think that's still irrelevant to asking for the second evade.

Also I'm not leaving you confused faces (except I did on that one cuz I think it's funny.)

Wrote a response to 90% of this and it got deleted... for kittens sake.

[semak.7481]

You two, get a room...

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

10 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

You two, get a room...

Yeah true

[Moody Soul.5617]

Mirage will never get a second dodge back for two reasons, 1:Vindicator  *you don't need a second dodge just look at vindi* 2 : Anet doesn't make mistakes when balancing......

[Veprovina.4876]

On 7/5/2022 at 3:57 AM, soul.6527 said:

Mirage will never get a second dodge back for two reasons, 1:Vindicator  *you don't need a second dodge just look at vindi* 2 : Anet doesn't make mistakes when balancing......

Honestly, even Vindicator needs 2 dodges.

Awful gameplay...

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Honestly, even Vindicator needs 2 dodges.

Awful gameplay...

Vindi is in a much better shape than mirage regarding dodges. It has multiple ways to get vigor and endurance gain. Plus Vindi dodge is actually good.