You're dumbing down the game.

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, you're already playing a computer game instead of doing sports or exercising, so...

If pressing the keys in a semi-coherent manner is automatically the equivalent of job for someone then... well, that's just sad. On a related note: why are you even spelling out words? It's not a job, so next time you post please just hold one key instead. 🙃 

[Marden.6294]

Many of these posts come across as "I'm angry that people who I believe are bad at the game are outperforming me." 

 

I believe people would enjoy games more if they stopped worrying about what everyone else is doing (and stopped constantly feeling the need to prove how much "better" they are at a game).

 

If you want to continue to play some super complicated class/rotation to feel superior to the plebs, nobody is stopping you. Have fun, if that's your jam. 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If pressing the keys in a semi-coherent manner is automatically the equivalent of job for someone then... well, that's just sad. On a related note: why are you even spelling out words? It's not a job, so next time you post please just hold one key instead. 🙃 

Should i keep using the same rotation of 14-15 characters instead? Would it be more skillful?

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Should i keep using the same rotation of 14-15 characters instead? Would it be more skillful?

Surely more than just holding one key, yes -do you really have any doubts about it? Then combine it with actually reacting to what is happening around and you have even more... that's right, complexity. Somehow... still not work though 🤔

Edited July 1, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Kozumi.5816]

To Anet:

The people who want to play FF14 are already playing it. Stop making this game into FF14 without catgirls or cute outfits. It's not going to work.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[RagingWolf.6438]

Thief´s stealth appeal was killed in this latest patch with the new shadow arts tree changes, was already nerfed before !

 

someone has stealth trauma or never played Thief !!

 

Daily Reflection

" A Thief without Stealth´s passives is like a walking corpse without half of its limbs " 🌠

Edited July 1, 2022 by RagingWolf.6438
bad format

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

3 hours ago, Marden.6294 said:

Many of these posts come across as "I'm angry that people who I believe are bad at the game are outperforming me." 

 

I believe people would enjoy games more if they stopped worrying about what everyone else is doing (and stopped constantly feeling the need to prove how much "better" they are at a game).

 

If you want to continue to play some super complicated class/rotation to feel superior to the plebs, nobody is stopping you. Have fun, if that's your jam. 

No, see here's the thing.  I am the absolute furthest thing from a sweaty try hard in this game.  I certainly don't try to get my toons built with meta builds, or seek out legendary armor, and I avoid raids like the plague.  Just not my thing.  In fact, I am probably the poster boy for dirty casual veteran in this game.  The problem I had with the changes made to engie in this update was that it completely trivialized the class to the point that people were able to "play it" virtually hands free.  short of moving out of a red circle occasionally it, literally required no more input, and it could pull some serious numbers.  Add in a few key presses for the mech and the number could go up even further.  Absolutely NO class in an MMO like this should allow for that level of hands free play.  It certainly shouldn't be out performing other classes to the degree that it was when they are having to put in more effort to come close to the dps and boon uptime.   Its not healthy for the game in the long run, and it isn't healthy for the class and its players.  This doesn't have anything to do with the "git gud" crowd and everything to do with the "I'd prefer my game to not be on rails" crowd, which I'd hope would be most players.  

Edited July 1, 2022 by PookieDaWombat.6209

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Do I think that low-intensity builds should do as much damage as long-rotation builds?  No.  Do I think that long-rotation builds should do 4-5x the damage as low-intensity builds?  No.

 

Why?  There should be a reward for mastery.  For me, though 2-2.5x ought to be enough.  Caveat: that's as compared to a low-intensity build that involves multiple key presses in rotation, not AFK and auto.

 

Again, why?  Ask yourself why the game doesn't see new raids, well, at all.  The harder-instanced content game needs new blood.  ANet sees this, and is trying to get more people into such content by making it possible for them to contribute without having to learn and build into muscle memory 30-50 step rotations.  Think otherwise all you like, but be aware that if you get what you want, that will likely sabotage ANet's harder-content intentions and you may be cutting your own throat.

[Woof.8246]

10 hours ago, PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

No, see here's the thing.  I am the absolute furthest thing from a sweaty try hard in this game.  I certainly don't try to get my toons built with meta builds, or seek out legendary armor, and I avoid raids like the plague.  Just not my thing.  In fact, I am probably the poster boy for dirty casual veteran in this game.  The problem I had with the changes made to engie in this update was that it completely trivialized the class to the point that people were able to "play it" virtually hands free.  short of moving out of a red circle occasionally it, literally required no more input, and it could pull some serious numbers.  Add in a few key presses for the mech and the number could go up even further.  Absolutely NO class in an MMO like this should allow for that level of hands free play.  It certainly shouldn't be out performing other classes to the degree that it was when they are having to put in more effort to come close to the dps and boon uptime.   Its not healthy for the game in the long run, and it isn't healthy for the class and its players.  This doesn't have anything to do with the "git gud" crowd and everything to do with the "I'd prefer my game to not be on rails" crowd, which I'd hope would be most players.  

Wasn't there a huge effort by the raiding community to create LI(easy builds) , such as the 1-hit Mesmer or other specs that need 2-3 buttons off-cd ?

People should be happy  that the "general population" stepped up .

Or it because high end players , such as Teapot is currently using it ?

Edited July 1, 2022 by Woof.8246

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

16 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

Wasn't there a huge effort by the raiding community to create LI(easy builds) , such as the 1-hit Mesmer or other specs that need 2-3 buttons off-cd ?

People should be happy  that the "general population" stepped up .

Or it because high end players , such as Teapot is currently using it ?

LI builds are good yes.  Braindead builds are not.  Braindead builds that out perform more involved builds is broken.  Engie was made braindead with this patch.  Now, the most recent hotfix to this has dealt with some of that, which is good, but unless they are balancing all classes to have the same level of effort to output, then its all moot and ceases to be "balance" at that point.

[Marden.6294]

1 hour ago, PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

No, see here's the thing.  I am the absolute furthest thing from a sweaty try hard in this game.  I certainly don't try to get my toons built with meta builds, or seek out legendary armor, and I avoid raids like the plague.  Just not my thing.  In fact, I am probably the poster boy for dirty casual veteran in this game.  The problem I had with the changes made to engie in this update was that it completely trivialized the class to the point that people were able to "play it" virtually hands free.  short of moving out of a red circle occasionally it, literally required no more input, and it could pull some serious numbers.  Add in a few key presses for the mech and the number could go up even further.  Absolutely NO class in an MMO like this should allow for that level of hands free play.  It certainly shouldn't be out performing other classes to the degree that it was when they are having to put in more effort to come close to the dps and boon uptime.   Its not healthy for the game in the long run, and it isn't healthy for the class and its players.  This doesn't have anything to do with the "git gud" crowd and everything to do with the "I'd prefer my game to not be on rails" crowd, which I'd hope would be most players.  

I didn't mention anything about raider vs non-raider, "tryhard" or not, etc.

 

I pointed out that people make themselves miserable worrying about what others are doing in comparison to them. If you find the Mechanist too easy in its current state and simply not fun, don't play it. 

 

Besides, show me the "afk" play that's going to dodge AOE and not stand in the fire, or trigger fight mechanics properly, etc. What someone does on a training golem has no bearing on what you, or I, or even they do out in the game world. 

 

Again: I'm convinced most of the anger in this thread is people being upset that average folks are competitive with them, in terms of raw numbers.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Marden.6294

[Woof.8246]

10 hours ago, PookieDaWombat.6209 said:

LI builds are good yes.  Braindead builds are not.  Braindead builds that out perform more involved builds is broken.  Engie was made braindead with this patch.  Now, the most recent hotfix to this has dealt with some of that, which is good, but unless they are balancing all classes to have the same level of effort to output, then its all moot and ceases to be "balance" at that point.

This is where i disagree .

At higher lvl , it doesn't really matter if you are using LI or a normal build , because you have 6 years of experience with different specs .

And in the lower lvl , it really helps the population , like the intended LI builds . The ones below you , just because they do more dps , they wont steal the show from  the experienced players

Edited July 1, 2022 by Woof.8246

[taara.3217]

30.06.2022 в 14:09, The Urps.8379 сказал:

Why should I play mirrage when I can play Condi-Mech. 

no any reason to play Condi-Mech if you play Condi-Mirage (if only you visually like it more) (OW PVE)

Edited July 1, 2022 by taara.3217

[azorean.1850]

Unfortunatly gw2 is becoming the mmorpg for dummies.

[taara.3217]

8 hours ago, Liisjak.4509 said:

There's dozens of brain dead classes

There's no any brain dead classes in GW2

[taara.3217]

38 minutes ago, azorean.1850 said:

Unfortunatly gw2 is becoming the mmorpg for dummies.

Fortunately, this is not the case.

[Puck.3697]

On 6/30/2022 at 10:12 AM, LKEY.9567 said:

I believe everyone seen this abomination of Rifle Engi. Seriously? You basically autoattack and you are outdpsing majority of the classes, all, you know - all of them beside... Another Mechanist build. I recall you telling us you want to lower to skill floor to have all the content available to all the players. Why do you lower skill ceilling as well?

The combat system of GW2 should promote perkyness, complexity and speed. We shouldn't create the environment where we have two builds which are basically auto-attacking and being the best in slot. But wait. Do you know that both builds belong to Mechanist? But wait, there is more - quess which Best-In-Slot healer build is? You are right - the Mechanist.

We have a situation where all best-in-slot class in every role is one specialization. I wouldn't be that angry if the Mechanist would be the complex and skillfull class. It's not, it's the most boring class there is right now. You just put auto-attack on rifle or mace and you are good, this is what we expect from the most skillfull combat in MMORPG? Reaally?

You may argue that "elitist meta" pushes everyone to play Mechanist. It's not. The current balance forces us to play that. We can not accept the sitation where the dumbest builds are the most rewarding, it's not healthy for the game. If you want to lower the skill floor, sure, go ahead but for the love of Kormir, leave the skill ceiling where it belongs - high.

To anyone who would raise the question "why would you care? play something different". I do play something different but I want to point out the situation where it's unhealthy for the game to have the dumbest builds being the strongest because, why would you polish your skills? Why would you learn carefully your class and practice rotation if there is one person who auto-attack on Rifle and has better results than you without an effort.

 

auto attack buidls Do not damage skill ceilings. a Skill Ceiling is maximising ur proffession. so a Auto attack build wouldnt hold any ground in this aspect at all. so i'd disagree wit hthe concept we're saying Engi auto attack. U arent out DPSing the majority of the classes.

I think you'll find your outdpsing PLAYERS. not classes. rifle mech is managing 37k DPS with a Full Rotation usuage, its auto attack builds clocking what likely 20k? DPS. well this is Half the DPS output of meta DPS builds right now.

your confusing What players are Managing. to what the class is capable of.

Most Pure DPS builds are around 40k benchmark. and tbh can get close to that in live fights When people alike players from SC are using them. its just 99% Of the playerbase. Use full Rotations and Dont manage more DPS then auto attacking. this is Because, their either not following mechanics properly so losing uptime. Using their rotations too Slowly because under alacrity etc etc the Rotations are Pretty darn fast most cannot even keep up with he rotational Speed of the game.

but no. Autyo attack Rifle engi. Aint doing 35k DPS. its not competing with SKill ceilings. its just like 0.01% of thisd games pop is managing remotely close to the skill ceiling of the game to begin with.

if u wanna see Dumbing down.

Look at the Ranger changes, those are reducing the skill ceiling and floor of Soulbeast by ALOT, those are prime examples. Whjen something makes its Maximised rotation easier is when the skill ceiling falls.

Auto attack builds are the skill floor realistically. and sure u'll out DPS Players. but tbh we're talking a playerbase which manages sub 3k DPS in Open World metas.

3 hours ago, azorean.1850 said:

Unfortunatly gw2 is becoming the mmorpg for dummies.

not true.

WoW made a Step to removing all Niche and Optional abilities from their classes in Legion.

FFXIV Remove Multiple buttons to introduce new ones they also Simplify alot of rotations with each patch. Compare Dragoon from heavensward, to Stormblood, to Shadowbringers. and u see its Skill ceiling drop HUGELY.

Ironically gw2 has held its in tact ALOT better then other mmorpgs.

however, the game is too complicated for the masses and thats largely proven at this point, most players cannot play gw2 At all. they cant even keep up with the rotational speed with buffs like alacrity ongoing let alone hit things in the right order or count auto attack chains.

 

 

[Polar.8634]

On 6/30/2022 at 3:35 PM, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

I don't understand, is this a "you're dumbing down the game" thread or a "nerf engi!" thread?

The first one is the illness and second one is it's symptom. I also would like to play character use g skills, not just 1. Auto attacking boss to death will not bring satisfaction from victory.

[Rhingeim.3974]

There simply should be the gap between LI and Complex rotation builds in terms of DPS and boon uptime. 

 

Something like 10-20% more DPS on complex builds and constant/65-75% boon uptime for complex/LI builds. 

 

This coming from a new player who actually likes "aa to boss death" approach, since I always prefer visual/personal feel over efficiency, and without access for new players to end-game content game will stagnate. 

 

Besides, new players should learn a lot of mechanics in end-game content on top of their build. And aa efficient builds is a bless for this, because otherwise, those player will be useless for group at all. 

[soul.9651]

Soon they are gonna be asking for auto play mode added to the game aswell ^^

[Cyninja.2954]

11 hours ago, Marden.6294 said:

I didn't mention anything about raider vs non-raider, "tryhard" or not, etc.

 

I pointed out that people make themselves miserable worrying about what others are doing in comparison to them. If you find the Mechanist too easy in its current state and simply not fun, don't play it. 

 

Besides, show me the "afk" play that's going to dodge AOE and not stand in the fire, or trigger fight mechanics properly, etc. What someone does on a training golem has no bearing on what you, or I, or even they do out in the game world. 

 

Again: I'm convinced most of the anger in this thread is people being upset that average folks are competitive with them, in terms of raw numbers.

Far from people worrying about "average" players competing. There is no competition because players with higher skill bring other things to the table.

The issue was what happened immediately once the initial patch went live:

- all mechanist instanced groups

- fb+mechanist only groups

- nearly no more warriors to be seen

- open world squads of 20+ mechanists

This isn't about low intensity or auto attack builds being strong. There have been very strong LI/auto builds in the past. There even was a competition not to long ago where players showed off their best low actions per minute builds with some as low as 10-15 apm still pulling 35k dps.

Having low intensity builds is absolutely fine and bringing down the difference between those and top end builds is a benefit. For all intents and purposes LI builds can clear all content in this game (bar the recent strike CMs).

The issue is the complete removal of output difference between LI/auto builds and any more sophisticated build. It removes ANY reason to even become adept at a class. Once that is the case this game becomes nothing more than a walking simulator and while I am sure that this would suite some players perfectly fine (and maybe even make a ton of money in todays gaming market), it will alienate a large crowd of players, especially the more dedicated crowd.

 

TL;DR:

If you can't understand that having builds which require 0 class understanding, knowledge or interaction bringing top end performance is an issue for a game like GW2 with it's complex combat system, there is nothing one could explain which would convince you otherwise.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Asum.4960]

11 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Do I think that low-intensity builds should do as much damage as long-rotation builds?  No.  Do I think that long-rotation builds should do 4-5x the damage as low-intensity builds?  No.

 

Why?  There should be a reward for mastery.  For me, though 2-2.5x ought to be enough.  Caveat: that's as compared to a low-intensity build that involves multiple key presses in rotation, not AFK and auto.

 

Again, why?  Ask yourself why the game doesn't see new raids, well, at all.  The harder-instanced content game needs new blood.  ANet sees this, and is trying to get more people into such content by making it possible for them to contribute without having to learn and build into muscle memory 30-50 step rotations.  Think otherwise all you like, but be aware that if you get what you want, that will likely sabotage ANet's harder-content intentions and you may be cutting your own throat.

Neither Low Intensity builds doing 1/5 of the damage of meta builds, nor meta builds requiring 50 step rotations has ever been a thing though. 

 

There have been almost purely Auto Attack builds doing ~60-70% of the damage of high-end meta builds since years (which is more than enough to very comfortably clear any content in the game, including Raids). 

Another thing to understand when looking at even these really complex SC rotations is that they are purely maximised for Golem Benchmark DPS - likely not even the players who made those builds and rotations play them exactly like that in practice. 

So many times you can look at these builds and test the rotations and find that not pressing that weapon skill loses you maybe 100 DPS, swapping this active Utility skill out for a passive stat increasing Signet is another 50 DPS lost, etc., and voila, in the end you got half the buttons to press for virtually the same DPS, if not actually more in practice due to being able to focus more on mechanics. 

These rotations are and always have been purely for comparing absolutely maximum theoretical performance, to be used as starting points to understand and adapt to your own needs and capabilities - not to be copied, memorised and followed religiously.

 

High effort and skill gameplay has always been optional in GW2. The problem now isn't that low effort is becoming viable, it always has been (as it should), it's that high effort and skill is becoming essentially not just unnecessary but invalid due to actually performing worse.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

High effort and skill gameplay has always been optional in GW2. The problem now isn't that low effort is becoming viable, it always has been (as it should), it's that high effort and skill is becoming essentially not just unnecessary but invalid due to actually performing worse.

 

Very good summary and pretty much the crux of the matter.

[Voyant.1327]

14 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

To Anet:

The people who want to play FF14 are already playing it. Stop making this game into FF14 without catgirls or cute outfits. It's not going to work.

Aye, I've thought this a few times.

If thats what we wanted, thats what we'd be playing.

Not saying MMOs can't learn from each other but this direction isn't desirable.

Work hard at making the game fun for original reasons instead of "lets just copy that bc I like FF" (the "new" raid mechanic for example, or removing class diversity)

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

13 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

High effort and skill gameplay has always been optional in GW2. The problem now isn't that low effort is becoming viable, it always has been (as it should), it's that high effort and skill is becoming essentially not just unnecessary but invalid due to actually performing worse.

Yeah this is a valid concern .

As teapot said in the stream , not all contents should be CM Temple , and if those other CMs  can  showcase your mastery over your class , by  doing more dps and killing faster a boss for world first should be a valid option too.

 

Hopefully the open world "timer" , it wont be effected like Soo Won , forcing the general population to use those specs

Edited July 2, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940