At what point is it elitism vs efficiency?

[mythical.6315]

8 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

My point exactly "GaMeRz"

Huh?  Your point is the exact opposite of what you have been saying throughout the thread?

You’re free to have your own opinion on how someone should play the game. Where it becomes an issue is when you try to enforce that view onto others. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I strongly suggest if people are going to say not to generalize they pick a better hill to die on than saying that some people like to do one of the most negative-connotation things in video game discourse across every game (grinding). There is so much more interesting to talk about, like how different games are paced and what their styles of engagement are. For example, a looter shooter vs. an RPG vs. an RTS vs. a turn-based strategy game. All things some find fun, some don't, and all different styles of game and gameplay that reward you more for different skills. For example, RPGs often involve more math, FPS often involve more kinesthetic reflex skill. Which incidentally is why a pro player at one type of game may go to another type of game and get absolutely wrecked.

Funny how you'd say that, while the guy 2 posts above yours dismisses anything anyone says with "games are supposed to be fun", as if his idea of "fun" is what decides how others should play or it's automatically unfun for everyone.

Not only that, but now you've went to another thread in general discussion and started claiming that people saying "anyone is free to make their own group" are the ones that... don't want to do it and "just wait for the group to fall on their lap"?

7 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

They want the convenience of grouping only with the type of people they consider worthy, without any of the work of organizing a community that can make that happen. So when they say stuff like "make your own group," it's like they're telling other people to do what they don't want to do themselves. They want their ideal group to fall into their lap

It actually blew my mind how you've reached these conclusions, when the complaint is about people that actually DO create the squads with information about their expectations -expectations that people not willing to make their own squads dislike, so now these groups are somehow wrong. How are you even trying to turn it into those people -that create their groups- to someone who... doesn't want to do it themselves? 🤨  It's almost like you want to monopolize the lfg and claim that any group that doesn't play the way you want it to play shouldn't use lfg. Just... wow.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Dante.1508]

9 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Huh?  Your point is the exact opposite of what you have been saying throughout the thread?

You’re free to have your own opinion on how someone should play the game. Where it becomes an issue is when you try to enforce that view onto others. 

People who like grinding should not have a say how games are designed.. they aren't the type of people games are aimed at.

15 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

An artful dodge, sir, but you failed to answer the question:  How is this not you dictating how the game should be played?

Following your logic, what you're saying here is that you get to define what is a "grind" vs. what is "fun".  As it pertains to the discussion at hand, your specific claim is that efficiency = grind = not fun.  Therefore other players shouldn't care so much about performance, comps, the meta, etc.

So, since you get to tell us how we should all be having fun, can you tell me if it's okay, for example, if I wanted to run fractals with a group of experienced players who perform well and even ask for specific classes to join my group?  Would that be in violation of Dante's Rulebook of Fun?

Only if you are rude to others that aren't as good at performing well. If so then yes.

Efficiency is not Grind, Grind is grind.. Efficiency is taking a game to extremes to bypass some the grind.. neither of which should be needed or wanted in gaming.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Labjax.2465]

13 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

I don't see grinding as "one of the most negative-connotation things in video game discourse across every game" per se. To me there's also 0 difference between grinding and farming, they're 100% synonyms.

I remember the good old times of Diablo2, the game's very essence was to grind/farm out xp and items. Do the same stuff over and over again. Yet millions of people had fun with it.

Most MMOs have a component of that, yet people enjoy them. It's not evidence millions of people enjoy grinding. People complain about grinding and play MMOs in spite of it. Many an exploit or unintended use of game mechanics is discovered in MMOs as a result of people specifically not wanting to do a bunch of grinding. Hell, in this game, some people get very good at the TP, so they don't have to do much grinding at all.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

People who like grinding should not have a say how games are designed.. they aren't the type of people games are aimed at.

You have absolutely no right to determine who does or doesn't have a say in how games are designed.  That's toxic AF.

[Labjax.2465]

16 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

You have absolutely no right to determine who does or doesn't have a say in how games are designed.  That's toxic AF.

Lol, it's not toxic to say that people who essentially enjoy inflicting pain on themselves (given the connotation of the word grind) should not be consulted for how a game is designed. OTOH, it would be strange to say people who enjoy repetition should not be consulted, which I suspect is what people are actually thinking of when they defend grinding. And in this way, it's worth noting that many a game considered fun is repetitive in one way or another, without feeling like or being seen as like a grind.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Lol, it's not toxic to say that people who essentially enjoy inflicting pain on themselves (given the connotation of the word grind) should not be consulted for how a game is designed. OTOH, it would be strange to say people who enjoy repetition should not be consulted, which I suspect is what people are actually thinking of when they defend grinding. And in this way, it's worth noting that many a game considered fun is repetitive in one way or another, without feeling like or being seen as like a grind.

You’re going on the premise that grind is universally bad which is not the case. There are many people who enjoy grind. Your opinion on it is nothing more than a preference. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

14 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

People who like grinding should not have a say how games are designed.. they aren't the type of people games are aimed at.

Only if you are rude to others that aren't as good at performing well. If so then yes.

Efficiency is not Grind, Grind is grind.. Efficiency is taking a game to extremes to bypass some the grind.. neither of which should be needed or wanted in gaming.

But at what point is reaching maximum efficency a grind? Seems like a paradox

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

People who like grinding should not have a say how games are designed.. they aren't the type of people games are aimed at.

"You can't tell me how to play the game, but I will tell you how to play the game"

Kinda ironic in this discussion. Strangely, there are pretty successful games involving a lot of grind, look at Lost Ark for example, or even Warframe, or War Thunder to name some. Just because you dislike grinding in a game doesn't mean it's not a viable game design.

[Dante.1508]

25 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

"You can't tell me how to play the game, but I will tell you how to play the game"

Kinda ironic in this discussion. Strangely, there are pretty successful games involving a lot of grind, look at Lost Ark for example, or even Warframe, or War Thunder to name some. Just because you dislike grinding in a game doesn't mean it's not a viable game design.

They are some really terrible games you just quoted..

10 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

You’re going on the premise that grind is universally bad which is not the case. There are many people who enjoy grind. Your opinion on it is nothing more than a preference. 

It is universally bad even the term grind is a bad term.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Nash.2681]

18 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

They are some really terrible games you just quoted..

It is universally bad even the term grind is a bad term.

Yet those game have quite some players playing those games. Are those all mindless drones?

It might be "universally bad" and "bad term" for you, but plz understand that your opinion ain't the only legit one. You dislike it. With a passion. We got that. But then again, plz acknowledge that this is far from being the universal law and there are many, many people on this planet that obviously feel differently.

[Dante.1508]

4 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Yet those game have quite some players playing those games. Are those all mindless drones?

Yes.

[Nash.2681]

1 minute ago, Dante.1508 said:

Yes.

Well, I guess I start to get the picture. No point in any further interaction with you, glhfbb.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

33 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

They are some really terrible games you just quoted..

That's why Lost Ark has more players(excluding bots), because it's so terrible.

36 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

It is universally bad even the term grind is a bad term.

Why is it bad? How come you get to decide what is and isn't a good game design, but when someone starts going on about how to play a game you start complaining about toxicity? 
You scream when others state something as fact then turn around to do so not much later.

Based on your logic I get to state that GW2 should focus on Raids and Fractals only, because Open World is a terrible design and noone who enjoys it should be in charge of designing content.

A person's opinion is not a fact. The fact is that despite being grindy those games have a massive playerbase, especially Lost Ark. 

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

They are some really terrible games you just quoted..

It is universally bad even the term grind is a bad term.

Do you have evidence to support that grind is universally bad?

[Ashen.2907]

On 7/6/2022 at 4:12 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

That makes more sense. I still tend to see farming used more to describe something that is boring, but ideal for efficiency, but it makes more sense to me than saying grinding is enjoyable for some.

Yeah, if it is fun, or at least not unfun, then it isnt really grinding to me, even if it is repetitive. Often done while listening to an interesting documentary or half watching a movie.

[Ashen.2907]

15 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

You’re going on the premise that grind is universally bad which is not the case. There are many people who enjoy grind. Your opinion on it is nothing more than a preference. 

Perhaps, if they enjoy it, isn't grind (or at least not for them). Something may be a grind for one person but enjoyable gameplay for someone else. I think the term grind means a certain type of repetitive gameplay that is not fun. It means not enjoyed. It is a negative connotation in the same way that toxic is not used (as far as I am aware at least) to describe what one considers positive behavior.

So, "grind" means bad but content that one person considers grindy may not be a grind for someone else.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[mythical.6315]

5 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Perhaps, if they enjoy, it isn't grind (or at least not for them). Something may be a grind for one person but enjoyable gameplay for someone else. I think the term grind means a certain type of repetitive gameplay that is not fun. It means not enjoyed. It is a negative connotation in the same way that toxic is not used (as far as I am aware at least) to describe what one considers positive behavior.

So, "grind" means bad but content that one person considers grindy may be enjoyable gameplay for someone else.

Except that grind is also often used positively and actively sought for. The term “grind” isn’t inherently good or bad.  Someone’s perception of grind is based on their personal preference to that type of gameplay. If they don’t like it then it’s bad. If they enjoy it then it’s good. 

Edited July 8, 2022 by mythical.6315

[AliamRationem.5172]

44 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Yeah, if it is fun, or at least not unfun, then it isnt really grinding to me, even if it is repetitive. Often done while listening to an interesting documentary or half watching a movie.

We're hyperfocusing on the word "grind", but the issue is its subjective meaning.  One person's grind is another person's fun.  For example, fractal account upgrades such as the infinite potions and titles fractal god, etc.  If you hate fractals and rarely participate in them, these rewards are far out of reach and could rightly be described as an unholy grind.  On the other hand, if you enjoy fractals and do them on a daily basis they're worthwhile rewards that you'll probably work toward because you're doing something you enjoy anyway.

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

19 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Lol, it's not toxic to say that people who essentially enjoy inflicting pain on themselves (given the connotation of the word grind) should not be consulted for how a game is designed. 

RIP Warrior and Ele mains.

[Dante.1508]

19 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Do you have evidence to support that grind is universally bad?

Do you have any evidence that its not.. outside of a salt and pepper shaker..

[Dante.1508]

21 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

That's why Lost Ark has more players(excluding bots), because it's so terrible.

Why is it bad? How come you get to decide what is and isn't a good game design, but when someone starts going on about how to play a game you start complaining about toxicity? 
You scream when others state something as fact then turn around to do so not much later.

Based on your logic I get to state that GW2 should focus on Raids and Fractals only, because Open World is a terrible design and noone who enjoys it should be in charge of designing content.

A person's opinion is not a fact. The fact is that despite being grindy those games have a massive playerbase, especially Lost Ark. 

Its newer than GW2.. Drones like new games.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

Do you have any evidence that its not.. outside of a salt and pepper shaker..

You made the initial claim so it’s on you to back that up. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by mythical.6315
Typo

[tekmo.3076]

To me it’s when you start forcing players to play a certain way

For example If the game allows for a certain weapon or skill to be used, a player should have every right to choose to use it, regardless of if it’s the most efficient skill or weapon for the player’s profession.

when you start kicking players for playing the wrong weapon or play style where do you draw the line? 
I understand endgame content is challenging and to win you need to play efficiently and wear the best gear etc but when players start enforcing it in non-endgame content it’s red flags.

Anet is definitely partly to blame by making some play styles less effective over time and not giving players proper advice on how to best use their profession.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, tekmo.3076 said:

To me it’s when you start forcing players to play a certain way

For example If the game allows for a certain weapon or skill to be used, a player should have every right to choose to use it, regardless of if it’s the most efficient skill or weapon for the player’s profession.

when you start kicking players for playing the wrong weapon or play style where do you draw the line? 
I understand endgame content is challenging and to win you need to play efficiently and wear the best gear etc but when players start enforcing it in non-endgame content it’s red flags.

Anet is definitely partly to blame by making some play styles less effective over time and not giving players proper advice on how to best use their profession.

This sounds like pure fantasy to me.  If a commander wants specific classes to fill a role they will ask for them.  If they have other requirements (e.g. experienced, killproofs, titles, etc.) they will mention them to avoid wasting time on players who don't fit with what the group is trying to accomplish.  Outside of that nobody cares what build you're playing.  They care that you can perform the role you're filling adequately.

If you can't do that with your class of choice it isn't ANet's fault.  Either your commander is a rare unicorn with entirely unreasonable expectations or more likely if it's a regular occurrence for you, you're doing something wrong with your build or the way you play it.  That isn't ANet's fault unless you're blaming them for having a free-form build system that allows you to make poor choices (I guess it is their fault in that case, but this isn't FFXIV!).