So... Arena.Net destroyed the concept of "shadow arts" ???

[hatozeni.5721]

Hi guys and girls, and... Arena.Net.
First of all, English is not my first language, so forgive me for any misspellings.
Second I'm really curious (and sad) and this is not a "troll threat".
After a few months without playing due to some personal issues yesterday I finally got back together with my beloved Thief DeadEye.

Like many Thiefs I love PvP and pretty much only play PvP.
I entered a PvP and with 1 minute of game-play I realized that DeadEye was all broken.
My build is shadow arts/acrobatics/Deadeye.

With this Build I "rolled/dodging" and gained (if I'm not mistaken) 4 seconds of stealth. Now it's just a stealth "blink".
The other classes have some shield or other subterfuge to survive that the thief does not. Thief survival is in Stealth. So I had to change my skills on the right side (built to deal damage to the target) for all the ones that stealth the thief and even then I realized that even these were nerfed.
I researched and found that the "crime" happened here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2022-06-28#Thief:~:text=in PvP only.-,Thief,-[edit]

There was an update and (among other nerfs) they changed the original concept of "shadow arts". Before "shadow arts" guarantee to the thief more stealth...! Now (if I understand correctly) it gives you speed and health if (IF) you got stealth from another source. lol
They deleted "Concealing Restoration" which made a great symbiosis with another "acrobatics" talent and made "rolling/dodging" give me a great time in stealth.

In short:
In the style of game-play that I liked to play I couldn't kill anyone because having a longer stealth than the other classes was the only guarantee of survival of the thief in PvP. And the reasonable damage skills (the ones on the right side of the screen) that I applied damage had to be all replaced by "stealth skills" and even these have reduced stealth time.
Jesus Christ Arena.Net... could you please go back on this decision??
The thief does not have "super armor". We only survive (both attacking and defending) with steath. If you take away our stealth... you kill this class.

Edited July 8, 2022 by hatozeni.5721

[DeceiverX.8361]

It returns more initiative and provides greater in-combat mobility where stealth is accessed repeatedly for small bursts than camping it.  If you want stealth on heal, use HiS.

BP+HS, if waited through, now only costs effectively 3 initiative and provides basically on-demand superspeed at all times, with improved on-demand condition cleansing from before.

It's harder to *gain* stealth in that you need to actually use weapon skills and utility skills to access it, but the actual benefits from doing so are more or less the same.

What this patch does is make D/P and DE players need to think.  The trait line changes and subsequent player responses are exposing just how hard-carried a lot of thieves have been for years on end, and just how impossible it was to buff anything else in the class (to make other playstyles better) without making the standard SA builds overpowered.

Edited July 8, 2022 by DeceiverX.8361

[UNOwen.7132]

Staying in stealth was always a trap. Youre just vulnerable if you stay in stealth in combat, and out of combat permastealth was degenerate anyway. This just synchronises what stealth is strong at with the traitline and ... honestly it probably made the traitline OP. Its crazy how good it is now.

[itspomf.9523]

As someone who hasn't used a stealth build since ... *checks notes* ... 2015, Shadow Arts has been in a bad way for a long while (like Acrobatics), only it's been a mainstay in competitive modes (PvP and WvW), where a lot of people complain because it's the one thing that they can't do (unless they've got, you know, a mesmer or a thief in the party, or play ranger, but I digress).

 

This "patch" was really to punish builds which had a very, very, very long history of abusing stealth via smoke fields (Dagger + Pistol, in particular), which allowed roamers to slink about and gank people unseen, or use camera-angle movement tweaks (since rectified, kind of) to short jump and chain multiple leaps for massive stealth times.

 

But, of course, instead of remedying this by capping stealth or removing the effect of stealth on leaps in smoke fields altogether, the entire trait line was modified in classic ArenaNet style, to better facilitate the lofty competitive players whose tears sustain the developers.

 

(I'm joking, but I'm not.)

 

Anyway, Shadow Arts isn't dead or destroyed, it's just a shadow of its former self, and others will happily tell you that it's somehow stronger despite the fact that revealed is now a guaranteed 3-second cooldown on the entire traitline, since there aren't many other ways to break stealth early.  It's only "strong" now because you can get the equivalent benefits of 3 seconds of stealth in a fraction of the time, provided you can pull it off fast enough, with what few means of gaining stealth remain.

 

Otherwise?  The only thing that changed is nothing which needed to.

[Ian.8340]

From a WvW pespective, the SA changes are a sad nerf to deadeyes. Prolonged stealth was a deadeye's best defensive utility and the best way to approach outnumbered situations. Having complete agency over your own survival and playing patiently was such a fun playstyle. I really wish they would revert the shadow arts changes.

[jpsssss.7530]

6 hours ago, Ian.8340 said:

From a WvW pespective, the SA changes are a sad nerf to deadeyes. Prolonged stealth was a deadeye's best defensive utility and the best way to approach outnumbered situations. Having complete agency over your own survival and playing patiently was such a fun playstyle. I really wish they would revert the shadow arts changes.

I hate to say it but the extended stealth abuse was probably the reason for the changes. Fighting a deadeye in WvW isn’t fun, even if you’re also playing a thief.

 

I will mention the two people that play deadeye a ton in my guild switched to Malificent 7 and say they never run out of initiative.

edit: I do think the deception trait removal was horse kitten though. Any non elite spec skill should have a CD reduction trait.

Edited July 10, 2022 by jpsssss.7530

[MorningGlow.5376]

On 7/8/2022 at 8:35 PM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

What this patch does is make D/P and DE players need to think.  The trait line changes and subsequent player responses are exposing just how hard-carried a lot of thieves have been for years on end, and just how impossible it was to buff anything else in the class (to make other playstyles better) without making the standard SA builds overpowered.

Couldn't have summerized it better!

Believe me, i am a miserable deadeye one-trick myself and while good ol' SA was fun to play with, it was tremendously unfun to play against (I can really only speak for PvP, but from what you hear it was even worse in WvW). It took me quite a while to realize this, because i rarely encountered another DE back then and when i did, i still didn't since we were both camping stealth. I'm kinda joking here, but the truth is, that the possibilities to retreat into stealth, when things got spicy were just too comfortable (and frustrating for the enemy).

After a while i deliberately dropped SA and in the beginning it was rough to be honest. So i feel your frustration (now that you got stripped of a part of your stealth as well). But to anyone exclaiming, that stealth was the "only defense" of DE, i'll claim you got so cozy in stealth, you never even bothered to look into the other resources of the class. And i don't mean that in a condescending way. Rather i want to encourage you to take the challenge and adapt, because ultimately it will make you a better with your class. 

...also you might notice that DE is actually the BIG time winner of the recent changes^^ (So much, that it probably will get adjustments/nerfs in the future)

Edited July 10, 2022 by TezPoca.7203

[Jitters.9401]

15 hours ago, Ian.8340 said:

From a WvW pespective, the SA changes are a sad nerf to deadeyes.

Sorry but not even close.

 

I was messing around with the deadeye to see if I could enjoy it. Its  ability to stealth is just ridiculous. 

 

I run traits that give vigor. I use canned food from the "permanent provisioner" you can get in WvW for a 30% endurance regen bonus (if you are poor like me that provisioner is amazing as it uses WvW badges). 

I use the Sigil of Endurance for 50% endurance gain on weapon swap.

I run rifle/rifle. Both have sigil of endurance and cleansing. 

I fought a harbinger. Nothing he could do. I ran circles around him then eventually I moved on. It would not have been a fair kill so I didn't bother.

(1) I heal when I enter and exit it stealth. 

(2) Remove conditions when you enter or exit south. So against heavy condition classes one stealth removes 2 conditions. Then add my sigils of cleansing. 

(3) Super speed briefly when on stealth. 

(4) My rife 2 skill keeps my enemy crippled so that makes my life easier to keep my enemies at distance.

 

Deadeye is way overpowered and I have no desire to abuse it.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Jitters.9401

[Bazsi.2734]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:52 PM, hatozeni.5721 said:

Hi guys and girls, and... Arena.Net.
First of all, English is not my first language, so forgive me for any misspellings.
Second I'm really curious (and sad) and this is not a "troll threat".
After a few months without playing due to some personal issues yesterday I finally got back together with my beloved Thief DeadEye.

Like many Thiefs I love PvP and pretty much only play PvP.
I entered a PvP and with 1 minute of game-play I realized that DeadEye was all broken.
My build is shadow arts/acrobatics/Deadeye.

With this Build I "rolled/dodging" and gained (if I'm not mistaken) 4 seconds of stealth. Now it's just a stealth "blink".
The other classes have some shield or other subterfuge to survive that the thief does not. Thief survival is in Stealth. So I had to change my skills on the right side (built to deal damage to the target) for all the ones that stealth the thief and even then I realized that even these were nerfed.
I researched and found that the "crime" happened here:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2022-06-28#Thief:~:text=in PvP only.-,Thief,-[edit]

There was an update and (among other nerfs) they changed the original concept of "shadow arts". Before "shadow arts" guarantee to the thief more stealth...! Now (if I understand correctly) it gives you speed and health if (IF) you got stealth from another source. lol
They deleted "Concealing Restoration" which made a great symbiosis with another "acrobatics" talent and made "rolling/dodging" give me a great time in stealth.

In short:
In the style of game-play that I liked to play I couldn't kill anyone because having a longer stealth than the other classes was the only guarantee of survival of the thief in PvP. And the reasonable damage skills (the ones on the right side of the screen) that I applied damage had to be all replaced by "stealth skills" and even these have reduced stealth time.
Jesus Christ Arena.Net... could you please go back on this decision??
The thief does not have "super armor". We only survive (both attacking and defending) with steath. If you take away our stealth... you kill this class.

The old concept of shadow arts is dead, yes. You no longer get your sustain from camping stealth. If you read the last balance patch though, it will become clear that said sustain was not simply "removed", it just got changed.
Your defense is spamming blinds, snares, superspeed and constant detargets with small bursts of stealth. You do not have to spend long seconds in stealth, you can just break it immediately and keep pushing the enemy as hard as you'd like. Your offense is way better now compared to pre-patch if you stick to this "in and out of stealth as fast as possible" dance. Acrobatics is the worst possible traitline to pick for DE atm, so I'd probably drop it for LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE, beside that you just need to embrace the new playstyle.

If you do not want to adapt, that's fine you can play something else... just do not say the class is dead. It's actually way stronger than before.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Dadnir.5038]

If it can make you feel better, I can garantee you that not a single profession is happy about this update.

[hatozeni.5721]

Thank you all. Well, I guess I'm going to have to relearn a new kind of gameplay. The best defense is offense so does anyone have a tip for a good "DeadEye one-shot" build?? And what sigil is better? Thank you.

[sector.9634]

23 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

The old concept of shadow arts is dead, yes. You no longer get your sustain from camping stealth. If you read the last balance patch though, it will become clear that said sustain was not simply "removed", it just got changed.
Your defense is spamming blinds, snares, superspeed and constant detargets with small bursts of stealth. You do not have to spend long seconds in stealth, you can just break it immediately and keep pushing the enemy as hard as you'd like. Your offense is way better now compared to pre-patch if you stick to this "in and out of stealth as fast as possible" dance. Acrobatics is the worst possible traitline to pick for DE atm, so I'd probably drop it for LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE, beside that you just need to embrace the new playstyle.

If you do not want to adapt, that's fine you can play something else... just do not say the class is dead. It's actually way stronger than before.

Ty for repeating the patchnotes

 

I not agree.

it was a huge nerf and some ppl think they can make it running.

I think de can troll noobs, but against averange player ttk is ~1-2s.

De prepatch cant do much against expiered players, after patch they die fast.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Nirari.4827

[Sindrener.1592]

Yes buff sa

[Bazsi.2734]

41 minutes ago, Nirari.4827 said:

Ty for repeating the patchnotes

 

I not agree.

it was a huge nerf and some ppl think they can make it running.

I think de can troll noobs, but against averange player ttk is ~1-2s.

De prepatch cant do much against expiered players, after patch they die fast.

I interpreted the patchnotes, because honestly most players do not understand what those mean. Also no problems with you disagreeing, you're free to be wrong.

If you think better sustain/offense, and a nerf to many sources of reflects made rifle deadeye worse... lol.

[eduminator.7845]

They destroyed Shadow Arts, another huge nerf to the thief, a class that cant do anything vs a celestial elementalist/catalyst/weaver, doesnt matter what spect you play

[Sindrener.1592]

11 hours ago, eduminator.7845 said:

They destroyed Shadow Arts, another huge nerf to the thief, a class that cant do anything vs a celestial elementalist/catalyst/weaver, doesnt matter what spect you play

True, new sa so weak we need unblockable DJ back

[nopoet.2960]

Is this really a SA problem OP?  Can't they just change the duration of stealth on Silent Scope for PVP/WvW?  It make sense that that should look at it now that the SA changes have gone though.

[Jitters.9401]

On 7/9/2022 at 7:33 AM, UNOwen.7132 said:

Staying in stealth was always a trap

Not if you actively used the trait to heal while stealthed.  

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/12/2022 at 12:28 PM, nopoet.2960 said:

Is this really a SA problem OP?  Can't they just change the duration of stealth on Silent Scope for PVP/WvW?  It make sense that that should look at it now that the SA changes have gone though.

Understand you're talking to a playerbase that was incapable of realizing one of the root problems with thief is the very thing they're still defending.

A lot of people are so hellbent on covering symptoms that they'd rather not take pause and look a bit deeper and find cures.

[Sinful.6395]

The most annoying one is that your steal does not give stealth anymore. It was the surprise attack kinda thing. Now it's gone. Anyone can guess when you will jump on them now. Took away all the fun for me. SD is the only way for me now.

[Zacchary.6183]

I, for one, welcome our stealth-flashing overlords. The change in design moved the advantages stealth brought off of the visual aspects a bit and onto the traits themselves by letting them proc twice per application. Pretty good coverage if you apply stealth often.

[Bern.9613]

People seem to forget, deadeye was built around stealth. At it's very beginning, deadeye was clunky, having to kneel all the time. Then it became playable until some               at anet found it to be "a source of frustration" and so stealth was "reworked" to benefit, ?specter? maybe (side note: a healing scourge is NOT what I want to be when playing thief), ?core thief? doubtful and failing at that as well. So all you, "hahahaha glad to see it killed off" better pucker up because it's only a matter of time before you're "a source of frustration."

Edited July 24, 2022 by Bern.9613

[yiksing.9432]

I don't know, i think the changes to SA buffed thieves a lot except maybe for non-SA build like staff. The dodge stealth nerf to 1s on deadeye is really a huge hinderance to deadeye players who plays at 250+ ms latency but overall the SA changes was a huge buff.

[ASP.8093]

On 7/24/2022 at 6:20 AM, Bern.9613 said:

People seem to forget, deadeye was built around stealth. At it's very beginning, deadeye was clunky, having to kneel all the time. Then it became playable until some               at anet found it to be "a source of frustration" and so stealth was "reworked" to benefit, ?specter? maybe (side note: a healing scourge is NOT what I want to be when playing thief), ?core thief? doubtful and failing at that as well. So all you, "hahahaha glad to see it killed off" better pucker up because it's only a matter of time before you're "a source of frustration."

But… it hasn't been killed off.

Shadow Arts Rifle DE now has more superspeed, better cleanse, better initiative management. All of which were major reasons to take Shadow Arts in the first place.

There are some tricky tradeoffs but the only thing the build really loses is a bit of 1vX mosquito-bite harassment potential. And even then, you can still pick off targets of opportunity or disengage incredibly well, it's just harder to hover around forever making more and more attempts.

[Bern.9613]

6 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

But… it hasn't been killed off.

Shadow Arts Rifle DE now has more superspeed, better cleanse, better initiative management. All of which were major reasons to take Shadow Arts in the first place.

There are some tricky tradeoffs but the only thing the build really loses is a bit of 1vX mosquito-bite harassment potential. And even then, you can still pick off targets of opportunity or disengage incredibly well, it's just harder to hover around forever making more and more attempts.

I disagree and I'm referring to thief in wvw not the boring, monotonous pve. Once again, deadeye was built/created around stealth. Super speed I can live without, already had 50% speed boost while stealthed. Initiative regen, condi cleanse I already had. FYI initiative regen was nerfed years ago when they topped out stealth stacks, on thief only. Stealth on steal was taken away, stealth when using a healing skill, gone. You obviously never went into outnumbered fights or go against these bunker, heal, condi builds. I've mained thief from launch, seen the continual chipping away at the class. With the introduction of specter as a thief elite, (if I wanted to play a healing bot, I wouldn't had picked thief) that was a huge red flag. The wisdom of thought from those                       at anet is bunker, heal, condi builds are better because it's easier and more forgiving when you screw up. So yea, deadeye has been killed off.