About Those Tempests

[felix.2386]

1 hour ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

u want tempest nerfed? stop asking for nerfs to everything in the game, and start asking for buffs

its no surprise that tempest is good when theres no good condi dps in the game, its no surprise tempest is good when sidenoders can be so tanky that 1v2ing them for 30+ seconds doesnt get you a nuet, making the game into a 4v4, when half the meta is heavily projectile based

tempest is a product of the state of the game, far too efficient in the state of the game that we're in right now; either buff specs and builds that devalue tempest(non projectile dps, more condition specs) or nerf tempest, killing it til they eventually repeat the process of overbuffing it so it sees play again

 

i personally dont want to see the last 2 years on repeat, and therefore am a fan of the former option, but i think we all know what most of you will still want

problem is condi builds almost never good, you surely remember condi daredevil, condi pd thief, condi herald

burn DH, even sage FB and condi staff mirage if you go a bit farther 

these are not good builds

even core condi necro is like borderline toxic.

 

i would never want to see these specs again 

[Crab Fear.8623]

6 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

No.....you and the lot here, got massively outplayed by better players using a class devoid of easy win gimmicks like : a class again you and the lot can't play half as good as those who owned you. There is a very good reason why none of you here mains an ele....

Have you ever seen a stream of an ele main playing another class? Do you honestly think that players like @Grimjack.8130, @Boyce.4069 or @Solemn.6401 and similar others...are being carried for playing ele?..

I gave up on ele some time ago and I did ask to these guys how they could still enjoy something like ele, when the game now is full of hamster brain levels of gameplay like F1+1111 harbinger or some gatling gun Mechanist....even more they can actually still win making it look so easy. 

Unless you lot can play ele close to that level...you are nothing more than a walking free kill right now and the fact you lot can't realize this...says a lot 

The delusion, I'm not even gonna bother anymore.

Just the fotm squad with confusions

[Tescao.3042]

12 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Just the fotm squad with confusions

A masterpiece! Carry this phrase in your heart  😄 😄.

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

18 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

The delusion, I'm not even gonna bother anymore.

Just the fotm squad with confusions

Let the butt-hurt flow through you.

[Crab Fear.8623]

26 minutes ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

Let the butt-hurt flow through you.

Saved for when it gets nerfed.

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

39 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

Saved for when it gets nerfed.

It's Ele of course it will be nerfed, it wouldn't need your tears for that to happen.

[Lucentfir.7430]

22 hours ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

u want tempest nerfed? stop asking for nerfs to everything in the game, and start asking for buffs

The sad part is when people actually try to go that route and pitch stuff, the powercreep preachers and core only purist come out of the woodworks and do everything they can to shoot down whatever helpful ideas or buffs are purposed. Not to mention I don't think anet listens to actual constructive discussions here, just normally what's being whined about the most at the time, you know like the vicious cycle we've been in for years. All is vain.  🤷‍♂️

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

The sad part is when people actually try to go that route and pitch stuff, the powercreep preachers and core only purist come out of the woodworks and do everything they can to shoot down whatever helpful ideas or buffs are purposed. Not to mention I don't think anet listens to actual constructive discussions here, just normally what's being whined about the most at the time, you know like the vicious cycle we've been in for years. All is vain.  🤷‍♂️

 

What's even more baffling is some of the people upset about the defensive strength of the current classes are also part of that group upset about damage-oriented power creep.

Why are we using Tempest performance in 2v2 to gauge the overall strength of the class? The game isn't even balanced  for 5v5. Are y'all gonna knee-jerk reactnerf ele then be sad about their performance when something else gets fixed?

We have more important kitten to worry about.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Kuma.1503]

*Sips Tea*

Let them nerf tempest. This community loves to whine the very problems the hate into existence. Then they can start complaining about the 🍔 and the ranged mechs that 1 spam them to death. 

"They just 111111 with no counterplay. Is this monkey gameplay you want to promote? I bet you don't even play your game". 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Why are we using Tempest performance in 2v2 to gauge the overall strength of the class?

No one was doing that. Someone injected a statement earlier as if I was doing that. Although I had used a couple examples from 2v2 season, I mainly play ATs. You know this. 90% of my opinion vs Ele right now is based from AT play.

A Core Guard is optional. Teams without a Support can beat teams with a Core Guard Support. However, Tempest is too strong in the aspect that if a p2 team with no Support fights a p2 team with Tempest Support, the Tempest Support team has like a 90% chance of winning that match.

Tempest Support actually does matter that much right now. At least in p2+ vs. p2+ it does.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

No one was doing that. Someone injected a statement earlier as if I was doing that

Okay, got it~

Quote

Tempest is too strong in the aspect that if a p2 team with no Support fights a p2 team with Tempest Support, the Tempest Support team has like a 90% chance of winning that match.

Tempest Support actually does matter that much right now. At least in p2+ vs. p2+ it does.

 

My response to this is multifaceted.

First, 

Quote

if a p2 team with no Support fights a p2 team with Tempest Support

Why would you do this at p2+

I think you're looking at this backwards/looking at this through the lens of the current state of the game rather than as a symptom of its state. Auramancer is good at supporting team fights, sure, but that's due to a number of factors that are part of a larger issue in the game. Think about it.

What playstyle does the current meta favor? What damage type?

What do you think will happen to auramancer overall if, instead of just nerfing it and pretending everything is fine, we increase the viability of the damage/+1/focus specs that people whined out of the game just a few months ago?

Why do you think Auramancer is prevalent now, given the last couple of class nerfs?

It won't stop. There will be another one if you don't address the classes that are supposed to counterbalance this playstyle.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Why would you do this at p2+

Because it happens. There isn't always enough Ele players online to fill each team.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I think you're looking at this backwards/looking at this through the lens of the current state of the game rather than as a symptom of its state.

This is very simple straightforward observation.

1. p2+ teams with no support lose to p2+ teams with Tempest Support 90% of the time. But a team with no support is able to equally fight a team with Guard Support.
2. During the last 2v2 season, for almost a week straight, I noticed that when I clicked on people near the ffa who had plat badges, 90% of those players were Elementalists. <- Not even exaggerating this.
3. When no Supports are present, the game feels fluid to play. Even when Guard Support is present, the game feels fluid to play. But when Tempest Supports are present, the game plays like a traffic jam. This was always true, but lately the traffic jam is worse than it's ever been because of the sheer buffing Tempest has received.
4. Guard Support has D tier damage, B tier self sustain, C tier mobility, C tier cc output, A tier defensive support, C tier offensive support. Tempest Support has C tier damage, A+ tier self sustain, C tier mobility, S+ tier cc output, A tier defensive support, C tier offensive support.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Auramancer is good at supporting team fights, sure, but that's due to a number of factors that are part of a larger issue in the game. Think about it.

After recent Ele buffs, Tempest is just straight pushing out bloated numbers for what it is. It should have tradeoffs like the Core Guard does, where it has high healing but low damage, has high boon generation but low utility support. Tempest is pumping high DPS for a Support, high self-sustain for a Support, high party support factors, and easily the best utility support in the game due to Aura Share.

Tempest is simply over-buffed right now. Nothing mysterious or complex has happened to make Tempest good other than those very direct buffs that have been given to Ele in the past few bigger patches.

The main crux of the problem is that the Tempest itself is way too hard to kill for a Support. It could almost be defined as a Bunker Support at this point. 

After all of those buffs, they need to adjust some other things on Ele in general to put it back into realistic balance. Shock Aura needs to go from 1s stun to a 1s daze. Stone Heart needs to work differently. Conjure Earth Shield needs a review. And it does not need 7s of party Alacrity per overload, obtainable with no concentration and no +boon duration.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

What playstyle does the current meta favor? What damage type?

This is a team fight meta. It is actually more rewarding to zerg around off node and snowball combats first and then worry about nodes later. This is the first time we've ever had a meta like this and it occurred after EOD drop when the mobility creep took a big jump forward. It is rarely rewarding to side node unless you're truly an excellent player because you'll get +d in under 10s and be forced 1v2, usually. Snowballing around maps as a zerg is rewarding because of so many compounded teleport bursts in the game now, which allows for exponentially faster kill rates while traveling as 3+ man wherever you go. It's very easy to get to nodes and full decap a map after sending the opponents on a full or near full wipe, due to mobility creep. The only thing that's important now, is winning team fights, no matter where that occurs, on or off node. Win team fight = auto snowball = fast triple decap. We've almost entirely lost the classic dynamic of team fight/support/roam/side node roles.

Realistically right now, it's just Support/Bursters. They've power crept everything so much that somewhere along the lines Team Fighters and Roamers became the same thing, now better defined as Bursters. Old Side Node builds aren't working anymore due to that mobility creep allowing for too fast of +s. You just need to run a Burster with good grade mobility. Side Node is no longer a job role but more so an action you can take if it happens to be advantageous. It's not really something you design a build around anymore. Really, team fighting - roaming - +ing - side noding, these are plays or actions that can be taken now. They are no longer job roles.

The "Burster" archetype could be more offensive less defensive or more defensive and less offensive, but all non-supports do the same thing in Conquest now. They move around the map together as a team fight presence and burst for kills. There is no more dedicated Roaming or dedicated Side Node play. When we play Unranked/Ranked where p2+ is mixed in with g1+ it sometimes feels like dedicated Roam and dedicated Side Node is still a thing, but this is simply not true in p2+ vs p2+ 5man organized. Mobility creep has changed everything.

As far as damage types, both power and condi are equally of value in higher tiered play. Some classes are better at power or condi due to class design yes, but the damage types as a base are equally as valuable as the other. I think this may be the first time I could say that about a current meta. Some matches it may be better to go more power comp, others more condi comp, but the rock/paper/scissors here is a balanced rock/paper/scissors.

Due to so much team fight oriented zerging in Conquest nowadays, it does empower Support play. But this does not change my opinion that Tempest has too much value too much potency with the way the game is being played now, and it is largely due to over-buffing Ele in general. Again, the crux of the problem is that the Tempest itself is too sustainy for a Support. It has no tradeoff decision between "selfish-sustain" or "party-support" it just gets to have both. Ultimately this is all a domino effect set into motion from mobility creep, but that mobility creep is very real, it has changed everything, and it is here to stay. I highly doubt Arenanet has any plans to full dial-back everyone's mobility. And as such, Support Tempest needs to be dealt with. It's too impactful for what it is with how the game is being played now.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

What do you think will happen to auramancer overall if, instead of just nerfing it and pretending everything is fine, we increase the viability of the damage/+1/focus specs

That is definitely not what we need. The game does not need power creep. In higher tiered play people are already blowing each other up in 2s with bursts with +ing. The damage in the game is right where it needs to be. It's just that Tempest is too hard to kill man. As a dedicated Support it should not also be a Bunker.

Strangely enough, I can say that the game feels fine outside of a few nuances in balance here and there, but when Support Tempest is present everything feels like a traffic jam.

Again, a team with no Support Guard can beat a team with a Support Guard. It's just a difference in play styles selected, those two comps being generally equal in outputs, just different. But when a team with no Tempest plays into a team with Tempest, you are greatly punished for doing so.

Tempest is too impactful right now. It also is completely shutting certain things out of viability. I'm not saying you SHOULD be playing a PD Thief or even that it would be good if Tempest wasn't around, but I am saying that it should a least be a viable option if you want to play it, as example. But due to Support Tempest, that build is actually 100% entirely useless. Too much anti projectile, too much passive CC, too much cleanse. Support Tempest has this effect on many build structures. It's created like an existential crisis vs. half the build structures in the game. It's not that Support Tempest counters them or even hard counters them, it's that Tempest doesn't allow them to play at all.

Support Tempest's defensive capabilities are bloated man.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It won't stop. There will be another one if you don't address the classes that are supposed to counterbalance this playstyle.

Nah, Support Tempest is on a different level of effect than general over-tuned classes. When Supports that negate & nullify 50% or more of all attacks & build structures become too strong, that is an entirely different deal than having some Roamer be slightly too strong.

Tempest needs to be dealt with. It's over-buffed and it's gating way too many build archetypes out of viability.

[Newholiday.8103]

46 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Because it happens. There isn't always enough Ele players online to fill each team.

This is very simple straightforward observation.

1. p2+ teams with no support lose to p2+ teams with Tempest Support 90% of the time. But a team with no support is able to equally fight a team with Guard Support.
2. During the last 2v2 season, for almost a week straight, I noticed that when I clicked on people near the ffa who had plat badges, 90% of those players were Elementalists. <- Not even exaggerating this.
3. When no Supports are present, the game feels fluid to play. Even when Guard Support is present, the game feels fluid to play. But when Tempest Supports are present, the game plays like a traffic jam. This was always true, but lately the traffic jam is worse than it's ever been because of the sheer buffing Tempest has received.
4. Guard Support has D tier damage, B tier self sustain, C tier mobility, C tier cc output, A tier defensive support, C tier offensive support. Tempest Support has C tier damage, A+ tier self sustain, C tier mobility, S+ tier cc output, A tier defensive support, C tier offensive support.

After recent Ele buffs, Tempest is just straight pushing out bloated numbers for what it is. It should have tradeoffs like the Core Guard does, where it has high healing but low damage, has high boon generation but low utility support. Tempest is pumping high DPS for a Support, high self-sustain for a Support, high party support factors, and easily the best utility support in the game due to Aura Share.

Tempest is simply over-buffed right now. Nothing mysterious or complex has happened to make Tempest good other than those very direct buffs that have been given to Ele in the past few bigger patches.

The main crux of the problem is that the Tempest itself is way too hard to kill for a Support. It could almost be defined as a Bunker Support at this point. 

After all of those buffs, they need to adjust some other things on Ele in general to put it back into realistic balance. Shock Aura needs to go from 1s stun to a 1s daze. Stone Heart needs to work differently. Conjure Earth Shield needs a review. And it does not need 7s of party Alacrity per overload, obtainable with no concentration and no +boon duration.

This is a team fight meta. It is actually more rewarding to zerg around off node and snowball combats first and then worry about nodes later. This is the first time we've ever had a meta like this and it occurred after EOD drop when the mobility creep took a big jump forward. It is rarely rewarding to side node unless you're truly an excellent player because you'll get +d in under 10s and be forced 1v2, usually. Snowballing around maps as a zerg is rewarding because of so many compounded teleport bursts in the game now, which allows for exponentially faster kill rates while traveling as 3+ man wherever you go. It's very easy to get to nodes and full decap a map after sending the opponents on a full or near full wipe, due to mobility creep. The only thing that's important now, is winning team fights, no matter where that occurs, on or off node. Win team fight = auto snowball = fast triple decap. We've almost entirely lost the classic dynamic of team fight/support/roam/side node roles.

Realistically right now, it's just Support/Bursters. They've power crept everything so much that somewhere along the lines Team Fighters and Roamers became the same thing, now better defined as Bursters. Old Side Node builds aren't working anymore due to that mobility creep allowing for too fast of +s. You just need to run a Burster with good grade mobility. Side Node is no longer a job role but more so an action you can take if it happens to be advantageous. It's not really something you design a build around anymore. Really, team fighting - roaming - +ing - side noding, these are plays or actions that can be taken now. They are no longer job roles.

The "Burster" archetype could be more offensive less defensive or more defensive and less offensive, but all non-supports do the same thing in Conquest now. They move around the map together as a team fight presence and burst for kills. There is no more dedicated Roaming or dedicated Side Node play. When we play Unranked/Ranked where p2+ is mixed in with g1+ it sometimes feels like dedicated Roam and dedicated Side Node is still a thing, but this is simply not true in p2+ vs p2+ 5man organized. Mobility creep has changed everything.

As far as damage types, both power and condi are equally of value in higher tiered play. Some classes are better at power or condi due to class design yes, but the damage types as a base are equally as valuable as the other. I think this may be the first time I could say that about a current meta. Some matches it may be better to go more power comp, others more condi comp, but the rock/paper/scissors here is a balanced rock/paper/scissors.

Due to so much team fight oriented zerging in Conquest nowadays, it does empower Support play. But this does not change my opinion that Tempest has too much value too much potency with the way the game is being played now, and it is largely due to over-buffing Ele in general. Again, the crux of the problem is that the Tempest itself is too sustainy for a Support. It has no tradeoff decision between "selfish-sustain" or "party-support" it just gets to have both. Ultimately this is all a domino effect set into motion from mobility creep, but that mobility creep is very real, it has changed everything, and it is here to stay. I highly doubt Arenanet has any plans to full dial-back everyone's mobility. And as such, Support Tempest needs to be dealt with. It's too impactful for what it is with how the game is being played now.

That is definitely not what we need. The game does not need power creep. In higher tiered play people are already blowing each other up in 2s with bursts with +ing. The damage in the game is right where it needs to be. It's just that Tempest is too hard to kill man. As a dedicated Support it should not also be a Bunker.

Strangely enough, I can say that the game feels fine outside of a few nuances in balance here and there, but when Support Tempest is present everything feels like a traffic jam.

Again, a team with no Support Guard can beat a team with a Support Guard. It's just a difference in play styles selected, those two comps being generally equal in outputs, just different. But when a team with no Tempest plays into a team with Tempest, you are greatly punished for doing so.

Tempest is too impactful right now. It also is completely shutting certain things out of viability. I'm not saying you SHOULD be playing a PD Thief or even that it would be good if Tempest wasn't around, but I am saying that it should a least be a viable option if you want to play it, as example. But due to Support Tempest, that build is actually 100% entirely useless. Too much anti projectile, too much passive CC, too much cleanse. Support Tempest has this effect on many build structures. It's created like an existential crisis vs. half the build structures in the game. It's not that Support Tempest counters them or even hard counters them, it's that Tempest doesn't allow them to play at all.

Support Tempest's defensive capabilities are bloated man.

Nah, Support Tempest is on a different level of effect than general over-tuned classes. When Supports that negate & nullify 50% or more of all attacks & build structures become too strong, that is an entirely different deal than having some Roamer be slightly too strong.

Tempest needs to be dealt with. It's over-buffed and it's gating way too many build archetypes out of viability.

Man, I'll be honest, I didn't read your post cause it's too long.  But tempest is literally in the same spot it was pre-EOD. No major changes or buffs.  And it wasn't even meta pre-EOD.  If you think it's too powerful in the current meta....then switch back to playing the pre-EOD meta.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

36 minutes ago, thepolishman.2348 said:

Man, I'll be honest, I didn't read your post cause it's too long.

Sorry, I write my posts for adult level reading comprehension.

1 hour ago, thepolishman.2348 said:

But tempest is literally in the same spot it was pre-EOD. No major changes or buffs.

You should read patch notes.

1 hour ago, thepolishman.2348 said:

If you think it's too powerful in the current meta....then switch back to playing the pre-EOD meta.

Yeah I'll go ahead and contact Dr. Strange so I can travel the multi-verse to a different reality where Arenanet stopped at POF and never produced EOD. Thanks for tip man.

[Mythras.2091]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Sorry, I write my posts for adult level reading comprehension.

 

I rarely write to forums (mostly just reading) and im only a casual player, but man, reading your thoughts were always a pleasure, you always have some serious points 😄 Cant even imagine how zen you must be to handle all these dumbs at bay 😛 

 

Anyways, even if im a casual, i can 100% agree with you! Im on condi DD (burn me, i dont care) and from my experience, i can handle guas pretty well. In the other hand, tempest just laughed at me, kitten tonns of auras and if i attacked the wrong time, i just killed myself. That projectile hate is fcking real. Even i saw one with earth shield in 2v2, we killed his buddy and went on chasing him for minutes with 2 dps and his hp literally never moved.

 

A supp gua can survive 2 dps for less than a minute, a tempest can make it about 3 mins (and he also have a chance to revive itself). That is my experience.

[Sahne.6950]

Tempest has a glaring weakness:

Meele Condispecs.         >Return of Fireweaver maybe? Condiberserker? oh boyy! so exiting 👀

pvp be like: You need to counter(meele condi) the counter(Tempest) to the current meta(🍔|projectiles)....

get creative kids! its time!  instead of crying... we need to theorycraft!

Condiberserker shreds any tempest... just saying.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Kuma.1503]

18 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Tempest has a glaring weakness:

Meele Condispecs.         >Return of Fireweaver maybe? Condiberserker? oh boyy! so exiting 👀

pvp be like: You need to counter(meele condi) the counter(Tempest) to the current meta(🍔|projectiles)....

get creative kids! its time!  instead of crying... we need to theorycraft!

Condiberserker shreds any tempest... just saying.

*quietly theorycrafting a condi minion catalyst*

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, Kuma.1503 said:

*quietly theorycrafting a condi minion catalyst*

Thats the Jam we need here! not all this QQ nerf tempest buhuuu 😂

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

*quietly theorycrafting a condi minion catalyst*

👀

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

8 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

 

Condiberserker shreds any tempest... just saying.

False.

 

Condizerker shreds any BAD tempest. Tempest has more than enough cleanse, healing, CC, and cover condi to deal with condizerker when the tempest knows what they are doing.

 

Condizerker has exactly one skill that Tempest needs to fear: skull grinder. But that one skill is locked behind berserk mode (so unavailable ~50% of the time), has a CD, and requires adrenaline to pull off. Oh, and it needs to be done in melee range. And the rest of the mace kit provides no ability for followup damage even if you land it.

 

Condizerker is also low mobility. With all of Tempest's CC, cripple, chill, and immob output (plus it's own mobility), Tempest has a pretty easy time staying out of reach of the condizerker if the tempest wants to do so.

 

Condizerker is one the main things I play, and I certainly have splattered my share of eles  (incl tempests) with skull grinder, but only those who don't know how to cleanse and/or dodge. A good tempest a)dodges or stays out of range (or cripples you so you can't get close) and b) promptly cleanses or at least doesn't spam cast with confusion on them. They have more than enough tools to neutralize a condizerker's offense--and still support their team while doing so. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 After all of those buffs, they need to adjust some other things on Ele in general to put it back into realistic balance. Shock Aura needs to go from 1s stun to a 1s daze. Stone Heart needs to work differently. Conjure Earth Shield needs a review. And it does not need 7s of party Alacrity per overload, obtainable with no concentration and no +boon duration.

 

I went over the patch notes for the last three or so quarter updates. This has a some merit and should be restated:

 

16 hours ago, thepolishman.2348 said:

 But tempest is literally in the same spot it was pre-EOD. No major changes or buffs.  And it wasn't even meta pre-EOD.  If you think it's too powerful in the current meta....then switch back to playing the pre-EOD meta.

 

There were some changes to offhand dagger, but nothing significant happened to Tempest with the exception of this:

 

Tempest

• Lucid Singularity: Increased the duration of alacrity applied by this trait from 6 seconds to 7 seconds.

 

In fact, Earth shield was nerfed besides.

 

Conjure Earth Shield

• Stone Sheath: Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP only.
• Magnetic Surge: Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP only.

 

Granted, the patch notes are a pain to snoop given how sparse they are, but if I'm wrong about that feel free to prove it.

 

I maintain that Tempest is not in its position specifically because of recent buffs to the class, but moreso as a product of the meta witchunting the things that counter it, coupled with the meta leaning more into bunkery ranged pressure than direct damage/melee damage. 

 

 

Quote

Due to so much team fight oriented zerging in Conquest nowadays, it does empower Support play. But this does not change my opinion that Tempest has too much value too much potency with the way the game is being played now, and it is largely due to over-buffing Ele in general. Again, the crux of the problem is that the Tempest itself is too sustainy for a Support. It has no tradeoff decision between "selfish-sustain" or "party-support" it just gets to have both. Ultimately this is all a domino effect set into motion from mobility creep, but that mobility creep is very real, it has changed everything, and it is here to stay. I highly doubt Arenanet has any plans to full dial-back everyone's mobility. And as such, Support Tempest needs to be dealt with. It's too impactful for what it is with how the game is being played now.

 

More on this below.

 

Quote

I can say that the game feels fine outside of a few nuances in balance here and there, but when Support Tempest is present everything feels like a traffic jam.

 

Everything feels like a traffic jam when tempest is present because swirling winds and magnetic aura stall the classes that roll over the nerfed melee oriented/glass builds/obnoxious condi builds that would have been able to focus Tempest through those. Harbinger, the thief builds that they're forced to play now, mechanist, a good bulk of the heavy hitters in the meta are ranged bruiser/bunkers themselves, so theyre having trouble with area denial. And I think that's fine/should be used as a frame of reference for improving the viability of classes do direct damage/condition damage in melee. The game may feel fine to you balance wise, but there are several classes and class variants that have no foothold at all when it comes to playability, and to claim the game is more or less fine, its just tempest you don't have an answer to comes off as a bit short sighted.

 

Quote

That is definitely not what we need. The game does not need power creep. In higher tiered play people are already blowing each other up in 2s with bursts with +ing. The damage in the game is right where it needs to be. 

Quote

Ultimately this is all a domino effect set into motion from mobility creep, but that mobility creep is very real, it has changed everything, and it is here to stay.

 

Blowing up 1v2 doesn't specifically mean damage is fine, especially when sidenoding/1v1 can last for minutes on end and the aforementioned mobility creep makes it easier for classes to disengage. While a lot of the numbers are well tuned, there are a few class denominations that are underperforming damage wise. 

 

Tl;Dr I think people are mad about Tempest because they were successful in whining all the melee/melee oriented condi out of relevance and now some ele putting up swirling winds reduces their DPS to 0. 

 

Those concerns aside however:

 

Quote

Again, the crux of the problem is that the Tempest itself is too sustainy for a Support. It has no tradeoff decision between "selfish-sustain" or "party-support" it just gets to have both.

 

This is concerning, if true. If it's able to sustain itself on, say, sidenode through an avenue that isn't relegated to "It wimdy" (to which I say take melee), then we can look at adjusting stone heart/cc/auras what have you. If it's just effective as a group support to the point that not taking a support has you wipe, I'd posit that's because the damage oriented classes cant play the damage oriented builds.

Tempest being bad at 1v1s, but superb at team support seems fair to me. I assumed that was the case before, but then I saw this in the other thread:

 

4 hours ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

Pretty much every MMO has healers be able to survive against 1 dps in pvp, but apparently here it is a problem.

Trinity-less was a beckoning call for all the whiny dps players.

So, tell you what. If it's tanking 1v1, then fine. Granted.

Instead of leaving a handful of classes to languish and claiming balance is fine outside of Tempest (how dare, btw), we should be looking at the classes and class denominations that do not/have not seen play due to overnerfing, and create an answer for tempest while those get fixed.

The Corruption line for Rev, for example, outputs a crapton of chill. But since people didn't like torment pulses it got hammered a while back, even before the torment/resistance reworks. 

Not that any of this matters. Balance is kitten and all is vain.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

and to claim the game is more or less fine, its just tempest you don't have an answer to comes off as a bit short sighted.

I don't know why you say things like this to me. You know full well I am the one person who always takes my time to write elaborate thesis like explanations on my points made. Clearly my discussions are not short sighted.

Also, I didn't say anything like what you quoted here. I've stated multiple times in several threads recently, that in my opinion there are 4 things that are either overperforming or arguably overperforming: 1) Harbinger, 2) Bunker Vindicator, 3) Specter, 4) Support Tempest. Outside of these 4 things, the game seems fine in terms of the when a class runs its best build. I'm not saying a WARRIOR has as much full viability amongst all specializations as a Guardian does, but I am saying that when a Warrior runs a Bladesworn and runs it correctly, it definitely has a viable place amongst the other classes. Every class is like this right now outside of the aforementioned 4. The reason why I did not go into all of that here an merely stated "outside of a few nuances in the balance" is because this thread was about Tempest specifically.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

There were some changes to offhand dagger, but nothing significant happened to Tempest with the exception of this:

You're only looking at Tempest when you went through those notes. Core Ele and Tempest had increased heal coefficients, which is actually the reason why people started using Tempest again, even before the recent big Quickness/Alacrity buff patch. Ele kept receiving weird small buffs in odd places for about the past year now. Over the course of time it added up and now we have Support Tempest.

I don't care to dig through patch notes to prove anything because I very specifically remember somewhat recently reading where that buff occurred and I thought to myself in that moment "Oh this is why everyone is bailing Core Guard for Tempest. Makes sense."

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Blowing up 1v2 doesn't specifically mean damage is fine, especially when sidenoding/1v1 can last for minutes on end and the aforementioned mobility creep makes it easier for classes to disengage. While a lot of the numbers are well tuned, there are a few class denominations that are underperforming damage wise.

You head previously encouraged the idea of buffing damage in a previous post and then you support the idea that DPS is somehow lacking right now by making this post.

But then you also say this:

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I think people are mad about Tempest because they were successful in whining all the melee/melee oriented condi out of relevance and now some ele putting up swirling winds reduces their DPS to 0.

Maybe the reason why you feel like damage might be lacking is because of ultra defensive party support spam that is actually capable of reducing damage output to 0 for elongated amounts of time. This also goes hand in hand with other poor designs like granting Thieves more and more blind spam and now weakness spam.

In my opinion the DPS in the game is fine and I feel the real problem is this trend of defensive buffs they keep leaning into. It's been slowing happening again. Tempest heal buffs, Warrior shout heal buffs, raising coefficient on Druid staff heal and CA Kit 3, giving Thief more blind spam than it already had on top of perpetual weakness spam, granting the new elite specs too much mobility and too many fresh new weakness spamming anti projectile bubble CC effects. It's gotten out of hand as of EOD. The answer is not to increase DPS. You want to talk about symptoms, the feeling of lowerDPS is a symptom of the problem, which is too much mobility/defense creep with EOD release.

I mean you can advocate for more power creep but where does it end? If anything, if they really wanted to increase DPS, just undo the CMC -33% universal nerf.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This is concerning, if true. If it's able to sustain itself on, say, sidenode through an avenue that isn't relegated to "It wimdy" (to which I say take melee), then we can look at adjusting stone heart/cc/auras what have you

Yeah it's sustain is too strong in 1v1 for a support dude. It's not that it's good at winning 1v1s, it's that it takes probably twice as long to widdle down and kill as a Core Guard. Lately Tempest Supports are sustaining harder that Fire Weaver Side Node builds, to put things into perspective for you.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Instead of leaving a handful of classes to languish and claiming balance is fine outside of Tempest (how dare, btw)

I never once said that. I said: "Outside of a few nuances in the balance, things feel mostly fine outside of Tempest". I was avoiding going into what I've already stated about 4 different times in 4 other threads, concerning Harbinger, Vindicator, Specter overperformance, because this thread is discussing Tempest.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

we should be looking at the classes and class denominations that do not/have not seen play due to overnerfing, and create an answer for tempest while those get fixed.

Yeah I hear ya. But I always focus on and put priority & concern on things that are either clearly overperforming or that are situated in such a way that they push way too many things out of viability, which Tempest is currently doing both.

You keep referencing around this idea of "bringing other specs up to par" but we do not need more power creep. We need things that are overperforming with bad designs that negate 50% of build structures, to be fixed. Maybe the reason why so many of these builds you keep referencing that need buffed, are in those poor states because other things are sitting with designs that just negate them.

The answer is not to buff buff buff. Where do you think the game will be if this keeps happening? I mean seriously. Look at the very apparent history of GW2's power creep. If they keep going down that trend, in 2 to 3 more years every class will be self generating every boon in the game for themselves, permanently, while having only massive AoE cleave attacks that throw both power and condi and CC, on 20s CDs or less, and everything will be stealthing and teleporting all over the place. We are like 1 step away from that already. I very strongly advocate the approach of just bringing grossly overperforming specs DOWN to the level of other things that I feel are designed correctly that promote healthy game play that are more fun to play as and even against. There is one class/build that comes to mind, always has for me, that I feel is the ideal design in every way for what this game's pvp should feel like, whether you play as it or play against it: Spellbreaker. In my opinion everything in the game should be balanced around Spellbreaker's performance value and the dynamic it possesses. If it's grossly stronger than the world of balance Spellbreaker exists in, it should be nerfed. If it's too weak and not able to keep up with the Spellbreaker, it should be buffed. That's my opinion. Not going to go all into why, but I've seen this method used in other games and it works. Spellbreaker should/would be the one to use as the standard of balance for GW2.

But I stress again that my opinion is that the power creep seriously needs to stop in GW2, for every mentionable reason of what we've seen power creep do to other games in the past. It's never a positive thing.

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Not that any of this matters. Balance is kitten and all is vain

You're probably right on that.

[Downstate.4697]

Part of it is that supports are rotating much more in this meta, which lowers opportunity to play around them. 

You could run a tankier team that contests mid all game and have 1 or 2 dps to out rotate. Honestly core necro+support seems like a valid answer to tempest.

They would prob need to nerf harb a bit more though

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't know why you say things like this to me.

 

Don't take it personally. It wasn't directed specifically at you, it was directed at the general notion. Even normally reasonable people can be short-sighted from time to time. I'm just really kitten tired of the nerf wheel and would like it to go the other way with something resembling caution. The way I see it, if Cata, Tempest and Weaver all have suitable roles as it stands right now, we should be looking into addressing grievances with them by counterbalancing them in a way that doesn't require nerf requests. Anet can't nerf with nuance. It's either overpowered or dumpster, and when it's dumpster its dumpster for years.

 

Quote

(how dare, btw)

 

This was 100% directed at you though.

 

Quote

I'm not saying a WARRIOR- 

 

Hey there's other stuff too; condi rev, power chrono, Acro thief, etc etc

 

Quote

Also, I didn't say anything like what you quoted here. I've stated multiple times in several threads recently, that in my opinion there are 4 things that are either overperforming or arguably overperforming: 1) Harbinger, 2) Bunker Vindicator, 3) Specter, 4) Support Tempest. Outside of these 4 things, the game seems fine in terms of the when a class runs its best

 

The reason why I did not go into all of that here an merely stated "outside of a few nuances in the balance" is because this thread was about Tempest specifically.

 

Fine, fine. Keep what I mentioned about the nerf wheel and certain entities being incapable of nuance in mind, though. ~

 

Quote

when a Warrior runs a Bladesworn 

 

Bladesworn is not warrior it is promotional material that Anet realized after shipping people might be interested in hitting other players with, so it was overbuffed in post and I don't care what happens to it

 

Quote

Lately Tempest Supports are sustaining harder that Fire Weaver Side Node builds, to put things into perspective for you.

 

If that's true, then you win the...argument? debate? Whatever this is. Its grounds for adjustment and everything above about nuance and alternative paths for balancing in a way that doesnt gut tempest can be thrown out. I need to see that though. I'll look at it (Again, not that it matters, but for sake of making sure I have the facts right on that)

 

Quote

You head previously encouraged the idea of buffing damage in a previous post and then you support the idea that DPS is somehow lacking right now by making this post.

But then you also say this:

 

It's lacking in the sense that, while coefficients may be workable, damage delivery on the classes that have those coefficients is difficult and needs adjustment. There's other ways you can facilitate that outside of straight damage buffs but that's all digression.

 

Quote

I think people are mad about Tempest because they were successful in whining all the melee/melee oriented condi out of relevance and now some ele putting up swirling winds reduces their DPS to 0.

Maybe the reason why you feel like damage might be lacking is because of ultra defensive party support spam that is actually capable of reducing damage output to 0 for elongated amounts of time. This also goes hand in hand with other poor designs like granting Thieves more and more blind spam and now weakness spam.

 

Nah, it's not that direct. Specifically because:

 

Quote

they were successful in whining all the melee/melee oriented condi out of relevance

 

The damage was removed before this problem with tempest surfaced. There are several traitlines and utility skills that help facilitate damage delivery that remain at 300 seconds/unworked. Surely these will not remain that way forever (at least I hope).

 

Quote

The answer is not to buff buff buff. Where do you think the game will be if this keeps happening? I mean seriously. Look at the very apparent history of GW2's power creep. 

 

I'm not saying to buff buff buff though. I'm saying that we have room in more than a modest handful of traits and skills to introduce functionality that can answer some of these specific issues. I'm concerned that the current state of the game is being treated as a foundation, when a good portion of these classes don't function at present.

 

Quote

Outside of these 4 things, the game seems fine-

 

Like this. I reject wholeheartedly that the game is fine outside of what is currently meta. It aint. 

 

Quote

Look at the very apparent history of GW2's power creep. If they keep going down that trend, in 2 to 3 more years every class will be self generating every boon in the game for themselves, permanently, while having only massive AoE cleave attacks that throw both power and condi and CC, on 20s CDs or less, and everything will be stealthing and teleporting all over the place. We are like 1 step away from that already.

 

This isn't due to balancing direction, nor should it be used as a blanket denial of adjusting builds that got eviscerated with the megapatch. 

 

There is a lot of room between "self generating every boon in the game" and cooldown reductions to allow people to play glassier/build to specifically target certain playstyles. Anet is, as mentioned before, incapable of nuance and introduces these mechanics you call power creep spontaneously. (See: Elixir of ambition). 

 

Quote

Spellbreaker. In my opinion everything in the game should be balanced around Spellbreaker's performance value and the dynamic it possesses. If it's grossly stronger than the world of balance Spellbreaker exists in, it should be nerfed. If it's too weak and not able to keep up with the Spellbreaker, it should be buffed. That's my opinion

 

If you hold everyone to Spellbreaker's standard as it stands now, everyone above that bar (there's a lot of people above that bar) will quit. Don't take that patience for granted.

 

Quote

But I stress again that my opinion is that the power creep seriously needs to stop in GW2, for every mentionable reason of what we've seen power creep do to other games in the past. It's never a positive thing.

 

I agree with the core of your premise, but I still think balance and buffing can be done in a way that doesn't cause power creep AND allows players to answer things like current-state tempest.

 

Quote

I don't care to dig through patch notes to prove anything because I very specifically remember somewhat recently reading where that buff occurred and I thought to myself in that moment "Oh this is why everyone is bailing Core Guard for Tempest. Makes sense."

 

I'm too bitter to treat the patchnotes with any less fllipance than... yknow, someone paid to do it today, so I'll look at that tomorrow/take your word for it for now. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Newholiday.8103]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't care to dig through patch notes to prove anything because I very specifically remember somewhat recently reading where that buff occurred and I thought to myself in that moment "Oh this is why everyone is bailing Core Guard for Tempest. Makes sense."

Ele did not receive any significant buffs outside of dagger buffs and alacrity from pre-EOD.  You should read patch notes especially after telling me to read patch notes.