Fix Blind Bug

[bethekey.8314]

It's ridiculous that one blind can soak up 3+ separate attacks.

One of the most impactful, long-standing bugs imo.

Edited July 18, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Avatar.3568]

1 blind does only apply to 1 damaging Skill. If you are Standing in a smocking field from Thief, or Thief stealts or mortar engi or blind Well or whatever you get it Multiple Times applied, or you nove Out of the circles

[Shao.7236]

There's a bug? How do you reproduce it? Afaik, blinds not being removed on invuls is the only annoying thing I know about,

[bethekey.8314]

2 hours ago, Avatar.3568 said:

1 blind does only apply to 1 damaging Skill. If you are Standing in a smocking field from Thief, or Thief stealts or mortar engi or blind Well or whatever you get it Multiple Times applied, or you nove Out of the circles

So when I show you you're objectively wrong, how will you respond?

There's some nuance to it, as shown in the second video (watch till the end). I also have new footage showing 3 separate grenade casts missing from 1 blind, but haven't uploaded it yet.

 

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

There's a bug? How do you reproduce it? Afaik, blinds not being removed on invuls is the only annoying thing I know about,

Yes. See the videos. It's easily reproducible. Not limited to grenades, but often seen with them.

Also, previous thread, 3 years ago, with some delving into the specifics.

Edited July 19, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Downstate.4697]

Does this occur for other skills or just barrage?

[Shao.7236]

This occurs for any skills that are multi-hits in a quick succession, I thought this was normal but I guess it isn't? In a sensical way it's not because Blind by design is only for one hit but you could quote "the next attack will miss" therefor an entire skill is eligible technically.

I however agree with key, that stuff needs to get checked. Blind is already really effin strong and spammed easily. Multi-hits are by concept an ideal counter to blind but right now apparently not allowed.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Shao.7236

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Does this occur for other skills or just barrage?

Other skills too. I just find it most easily reproducible with grenades.

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

This occurs for any skills that are multi-hits in a quick succession, I thought this was normal but I guess it isn't? In a sensical way it's not because Blind by design is only for one hit but you could quote "the next attack will miss" therefor an entire skill is eligible technically.

I however agree with key, that stuff needs to get checked. Blind is already really effin strong and spammed easily. Multi-hits are by concept an ideal counter to blind but right now apparently not allowed.

Right. Multi-hits should be a counter to blind and aegis, but often suffer the most against blind.

The second video shows it's not "the next WHOLE attack will miss". Some of the grenades in Barrage miss, while some hit the enemy model directly. All within the same attack. Sure, it could be coded this way and that's fine.

It's not fine when 2+ whole attacks miss from one blind.

Edited July 19, 2022 by bethekey.8314

[Sahne.6950]

8 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

So when I show you you're objectively wrong, how will you respond?

There's some nuance to it, as shown in the second video (watch till the end). I also have new footage showing 3 separate grenade casts missing from 1 blind, but haven't uploaded it yet.

 

Yes. See the videos. It's easily reproducible. Not limited to grenades, but often seen with them.

Also, previous thread, 3 years ago, with some delving into the specifics.

This is not a bug. It always worked like this. I think its to prevent grenades from clearing blind to easily or when throwing them on the ground without them hitting a acutal enemy.

The blind will clear should a grenade directly hit the target or land VERY close by. But if you are just throwing in the general vicinity it will not clear the blind.

I can only believe, thats to prevent grenade from clearing the blind with one of its hits and the other ones hitting right after it. If we would not have this mechanic, grenades and therefore Engie would be basicly immune to blind, because they would simply clear and still hit with a single cast.

I am not saying if i think this is good or bad... just pointing out how it works and why it might work like this.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[vilesoldier.9826]

6 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

Right. Multi-hits should be a counter to blind and aegis, but often suffer the most against blind.

The second video shows it's not "the next WHOLE attack will miss". Some of the grenades in Barrage miss, while some hit the enemy model directly. All within the same attack. Sure, it could be coded this way and that's fine.

It's not fine when 2+ whole attacks miss from one blind.

This is honestly an interesting discussion about the mechanics of blind as it relates to rapid multi-hitting skills.

 

From slowing down your second video, it seems that blind (like you said) doesn't make a WHOLE attack miss, but rather it makes "all attacks within a specific time frame (looks like 1/4 sec, maybe less)" miss. I say this because if you look, the first barrage in your second video shows some hits + some misses because not all the grenades actually explode on the enemy at the same time. (refer to 0:13 to 0:15 at x0.5 speed).

However in the second barrage on the thief, it looks like all miss because they all explode at the same time on the enemy (or near enough chronologically to count as one attack). This seems to be an issue with multi-hit skills like barrage that can have a different hit effect depending on the trajectory thrown. (another one that comes to mind might be thief shortbow 2 detonate cluster)

 

This tells me that multi-hits are still a counter to blind, just multi-hits that are slightly more spread out.

I guess it then boils down to; Should (multi-hitting attacks that occur so close together chronologically that they appear as one) be fully countered by one blind? 

It's tough to say IMO. I lean towards yes, but I understand that it does feel bad.

*Edit after rewatching second video: I do find it very troubling that the second barrage does not clear the blind AT ALL. that's ridiculous.

Edited July 19, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Sahne.6950]

17 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

This is honestly an interesting discussion about the mechanics of blind as it relates to rapid multi-hitting skills.

 

From slowing down your second video, it seems that blind (like you said) doesn't make a WHOLE attack miss, but rather it makes "all attacks within a specific time frame (looks like 1/4 sec, maybe less)" miss. I say this because if you look, the first barrage in your second video shows some hits + some misses because not all the grenades actually explode on the enemy at the same time. (refer to 0:13 to 0:15 at x0.5 speed).

However in the second barrage on the thief, it looks like all miss because they all explode at the same time on the enemy (or near enough chronologically to count as one attack). This seems to be an issue with multi-hit skills like barrage that can have a different hit effect depending on the trajectory thrown. (another one that comes to mind might be thief shortbow 2 detonate cluster)

 

This tells me that multi-hits are still a counter to blind, just multi-hits that are slightly more spread out.

I guess it then boils down to; Should (multi-hitting attacks that occur so close together chronologically that they appear as one) be fully countered by one blind? 

It's tough to say IMO. I lean towards yes, but I understand that it does feel bad.

thats not how it works. it was a coincidence that it looked like this. Otherwise he would be unable to throw multiple nades back to back and all of them miss.

You can throw 5,10,20 grenades that will barely hit. It will always give you the miss. But as soon as one of these grenades is a direct hit or VERY close to being one(the hitbox seems to be w0nky), it will clear the blind and the other nades will connect aswell.    

(i have never specifically tested this, but i highly believe thats how it works, atleast i always treated it like this and i am able to clear the blind consistently this way)

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

thats not how it works. it was a coincidence that it looked like this.

You can throw 5,10,20 grenades that will barely hit. It will always give you the miss. But as soon as one of these grenades is a direct hit, it will clear the blind and the other hits will connect aswell.    

(i have never specifically tested this, but i highly believe thats how it works.)

what?

So then what's the point of the AOE ring? For show?

 

I find it very hard to believe that either enemies in the second video were "too far" from the explosion for it to miss.

[Sahne.6950]

41 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

what?

So then what's the point of the AOE ring? For show?

 

I find it very hard to believe that either enemies in the second video were "too far" from the explosion for it to miss.

i can only tell you how it works for me. It keeps on missing till one grenade is a "direct hit". Should any of the nades be a direct hit, it will clear the blind and the other grenades will hit aswell.

Just look at the video! first of all.. the videos are very weird.... he uses the nades during the evadeframe of the Rev and literally is confused why it didnt clear the blind.... the naded DID NOT HIT! But in the second video you can clearly see it!!! the one grenade that directly hits the asura is instantly clearing the blind. The Grenade passing thru him is actually clearing the blind. And on the second attempt you clerly see, that the nades perfectly land around the target, but none of them acutally connects, thats why hes still blinded.

It is literally not bugged, its working how it always worked. And it has nothing to do with weird "blind makes you miss for timeframes" stuff... xD Its clear as day from the videos.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[vilesoldier.9826]

12 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i can only tell you how it works for me. It keeps on missing till one grenade is a "direct hit". Should any of the nades be a direct hit, it will clear the blind and the other grenades will hit aswell.

 

just wanted to point out that the "miss makes skills in a specific timeframe" idea is impossible, because you can literally mist 20 grenades in a row.

If this is how it should work, then it all boils down to how much of a buggy mess grenades actually are.

Look at 0:28 - 0:31 in the first video. That revenant should be swimming in direct hits. But all misses.

Edited July 19, 2022 by GeneralBM.5781

[Sahne.6950]

22 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

If this is how it should work, then it all boils down to how much of a buggy mess grenades actually are.

Look at 0:28 - 0:31 in the first video. That revenant should be swimming in direct hits. But all misses.

to met it looks like the Rev is still in his Evadeframe while he is throwing the grenades. The part that produces the "miss" is the explosion of the grenade, which we already ironed out to NOT CLEAR the blind.

you know how i mean that? during the projectilepart of the skill he was still in his evadeframe, the evadeframe ended between the projectile passing thru him and the projectiles exploding.

It all comes down to 1 or 3 frames. I stopped the video at every frame,  i can not find the "evaded" of the projectiles passing thru him,... im not quite sure here actually... but i can only guess that is what happened. Overall i thought he used his skill way to early.. it felt like the rev was still in the evadeframe. maybe he has bad luck with the nades, hitting perfectly around him!? Same as in the second clip against the thief, altho they are all crazy close... none of the nades actually directly hit. Thats a problem of the nades being thrown in a random pattern....

 

Look at the second video, you can clearly see that nades are behaving just how i told you.

^I am pretty sure this is intended. If this is a bug... its a hella consistent one and one that is around for atleast half a decade.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Tescao.3042]

Maybe it's not a bug, from what I read a volley of grenades counts as one hit. In the tooltip of the grenades there are no such words as Initial Strike and Additional Strikes.

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, Tescao.3042 said:

Maybe it's not a bug, from what I read a volley of grenades counts as one hit. In the tooltip of the grenades there are no such words as Initial Strike and Additional Strikes.

but wouldnt it clear blind reliably then? All the atks of the grenade would be a "miss", but the blind would be gone after that. But that is not what is happening. You can miss 20 Grenades back to back, should none of these actually be a "direct hit".

[Tescao.3042]

5 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

but wouldnt it clear blind reliably then? All the atks of the grenade would be a "miss", but the blind would be gone after that. But that is not what is happening. You can miss 20 Grenades back to back, should none of these actually be a "direct hit".

I said only about one volley.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Ah yes, a blind that somehow is capable to "miss" multiple hits of different sources in one frame of time, classic since 2012.
After getting jumped by a melee teef long time ago while sitting in multiple damaging AoEs and not even hitting it once, this blind "mechanic" doesn't surprise me at this point.

[Sahne.6950]

5 minutes ago, Tescao.3042 said:

I said only about one volley.

yeah but wouldnt a single volley, reliably, clear the blind then?

because right now it doesnt, if you are not directly hitting your enemy with the grenade projectile itself.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Tescao.3042]

11 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

yeah but wouldnt a single volley, reliably, clear the blind then?

because right now it doesnt, if you are not directly hitting your enemy with the grenade projectile itself.

If several different volleys (buttons) on grenades do not clear one Blind, then yes it is a mistake, but for me this error does not compare to the fact that there are classes that lack a whole identity (which can only be expressed through their own special fields or their own condi game)

Edited July 19, 2022 by Tescao.3042

[Sahne.6950]

9 minutes ago, Tescao.3042 said:

If several different volleys (buttons) on grenades do not clear one Blind, then yes it is a mistake, but for me this error does not compare to the fact that there are classes that lack a whole identity (which can only be expressed through their own special fields or their own condi game)

holy mother of "i have not read the posts in this thread at all, and now im going to totally derail it"

[Tescao.3042]

32 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

holy mother of "i have not read the posts in this thread at all, and now im going to totally derail it"

Don't worry, buddy, I was already beaten to the punch by the fact that this so-called "mistake" was born in 2012.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

   It's like an impossible bug to fix. Or it wouldn't be here in the game after 10 years.

[Shao.7236]

22 minutes ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

   It's like an impossible bug to fix. Or it wouldn't be here in the game after 10 years.

Nah, somewhere in the design of the function there is a timer that dictates when to stop the blind effect.

This is something that anet did on purpose, if it was based on skill alone, many many others such as unrelenting assault or rapid fire wouldn't hit after the first.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Shao.7236