LGBTQ...

[Zola.6197]

11 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Demanding lgbt characters to be portraited in the media is the wrong approach imo, you shouldn't demand it, it should be portraited because it is right to do so and fits the narrative(regarding movies/books/whatever).

And yet no one seeks justification like this when a character is straight. It’s only queer characters that need to have narrative justification to be included, for some reason.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

7 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

And yet no one seeks justification like this when a character is straight. It’s only queer characters that need to have narrative justification to be included, for some reason.

Lgbt population is what? 5%? 

There's depictions of those types of characters on movies/books/whatever through history. 

For instance Carmilla from 1872 is lesbian, and we're talking 1872!

You just can't brute force something and say "from now on, every media must have by law a quota of lgbt characters." That's not how it works. 

[Zola.6197]

6 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Lgbt population is what? 5%? 

There's depictions of those types of characters on movies/books/whatever through history. 

For instance Carmilla from 1872 is lesbian, and we're talking 1872!

You just can't brute force something and say "from now on, every media must have by law a quota of lgbt characters." That's not how it works. 

You’re just proving my point. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

You’re just proving my point. 

Don't see how.

[Fenom.9457]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:21 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Just a headsup: I like the idea! and i especially think the asura and Charr would be HELLA cute together! This post has nothing to do with the idea itself. i am just saying this to maybe start some critical thinking regarding this topic. I myself would position myself on the far left, in terms of political world view. I even participated in the Christopher street day in Berlin last week. So dont take this as sexist, rightwinged, yada yada. This not meant to devalue your idea, i actually like it! its just something for the people here and basicly the whole mankind to think about.

We have to stop and think for a second. Do we really need to force politics/gender discussion or similar things into our games? After all.... this is a fantasy world. Do we really even need to consider or pay attention if and how many gay relationships there are in gw2? Why does sexuality even matter in a videogame?

No need to force things like this. If there is gay charackters in a videogame. Cool! diversity. I have nothing against that. Your idea specifically with the asura and charr sounds sooo CUUTE, ngl! ❤️

but do we have to force things like that? (not saying you are trying to do that, btw! Your idea is soo neat^^) At one point i thought to myself... are we overshooting the overall goal here? That point came to me, when the creators of the Sonic film were facing a juristical charge, because their Film didnt include any LGBTQIA+ charckters....  like..... what?! we are speaking about flippin running Hedgehogs that go on a adventure... do we have to force politics on everything!? Well guess what.... Doctor Eggmans assistant is now gay.

 

While i like your idea! and i am all for it. I think its crazy how it has turned from "love for and with all" to "You can not create a film about some lightningfast hedgehogs without including a gay charackter".

 

this is it right here, nothing is going to come out worse in terms of character writing and well done representation than forcing it just for the sake of it. You’re also totally right about politics having no place in a world that is literally entirely different - it’s one thing when a game is based on a version of earth.  Not to say there shouldn’t be this or that, I’m not taking a stance on that because it’ll inevitable lead to arguing.  Just long kin as things aren’t done for some quota or to draw in a crowd, I don’t want cheap shells of a character in the story and they have nothing except being X thing people want to see. Anet’s been great with this so far 

[Tom.8029]

6 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

"lgbt accomplished rights pride." there you go - something that makes sense. Proud of being gay doesn't make any. 

Demanding lgbt characters to be portraited in the media is the wrong approach imo, you shouldn't demand it, it should be portraited because it is right to do so and fits the narrative(regarding movies/books/whatever). But again I'm talking from a country which is superliberal regarding society and anything anti-lgbt is rightly mocked upon. 

In the case of USA I guess its a different story because of all the trumptards garbage going on. 

 

@Tom now we're on the same page and I agree. 

 

What country are currently in, if you don’t mind my asking?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

5 hours ago, Tom.8029 said:

What country are currently in, if you don’t mind my asking?

Portugal. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

There are so many things I'd like to write about this, but I'd get permanently banned for every single one of them, even though they would be facts. 
GW2 is a MMORPG in the first place, not a dating sim nor VN so things like these type of relationships is a bit of nono. It is for 12+ years old people, which are still children aka "blank paper", so putting this type of content is simply form of indoctrination that may screw their world view.
I won't write anything beyond that, because that will become a war in comments.

[Labjax.2465]

18 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

There are so many things I'd like to write about this, but I'd get permanently banned for every single one of them, even though they would be facts. 
GW2 is a MMORPG in the first place, not a dating sim nor VN so things like these type of relationships is a bit of nono. It is for 12+ years old people, which are still children aka "blank paper", so putting this type of content is simply form of indoctrination that may screw their world view.
I won't write anything beyond that, because that will become a war in comments.

Lol... if you think that way, then the entire game is a form of indoctrination with the perspectives written in it and you should never expose kids to any form of media ever. Notice how no one ever says this kind of nonsense about a game where you go around killing people to level up, but they'll say it about two people loving each other.

[SlayerXX.7138]

19 hours ago, Zola.6197 said:

And yet no one seeks justification like this when a character is straight. It’s only queer characters that need to have narrative justification to be included, for some reason.

Because people ask for gay relationships. People don't ask for hetero relationships or characters. Don't need justification if you don't ask for anything. If I could thanos snap halve of all hetero romantic sub plots out of existence I would without a second thought. In addition to that no Author goes out of the way to make sure the audience knows random side character #17 is hetero. In this century at least. You think the average hetero can't wait for the introduction of rox boyfriend?

19 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

19 hours ago, Zola.6197 said:

You’re just proving my point. 

Don't see how.

Because you need a Reason for the Inclusion, while almost every mainstream movie has a (hetero sexual)romantic sub plot by default. 

By definition Mass media appeals to the majority, the masses and the most common denominator. Romantic subplots are rarely stellar and most of the time barley passable. But they are #relatable. That is why mainstream media do them so often. Relatable is a powerfull tool for mass media. If that subplot loses #relatable its just that: a unnecessary subplot. There are of course also the people who don't like the gays, who are not fond of gay subplots in general.

Even if we highball the gays at 10% i don't know how #relatable Male action is for the average kitten licking woman. Which means we are probably back at 5%.

Look at son Goku his gender is training and his sexuality is battle. His relationship is just there to produce offspring and further the plot. Nobody looks at character like goku and thinks "yes pure hetero sexuality".

If your disregard reproduction and weak romantic sub plots there aren't that many displays of hetero sexuality in media. 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Albi.7250

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Welp.😅

Edited August 4, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Albi.7250you answered the question itself. Products are made for the maximum amount of profit, 95% of the planet is hetero. Now if people want lgbt stuff there's plenty, you just have to look for it.

Demanding a quota isn't the way and will never work. 

I know some gay people and the ones I know will not see a movie or read a book if there's a hetero relationship in there, which just boggles my mind. I mean, I see/read for the plot, couldn't care less about the sexual choices of the protagonist. So I don't see the big deal if there's gays or not in a movie/game/book as long as the plot is good (which in case of gw2 isn't, let's face it, gw2 story is awful). 

[SlayerXX.7138]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 Well i dint try to disprove you. You asked where the person is coming from, I just tried explaining it to you from a neutral standpoint.

If people are starved for #relatable content let them vote with their wallets:).

The thing you and me seem to struggle with here seems to be we are a minority too. The kind of people who don't give much thought about the relationship stuff in story's. 

18 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So I don't see the big deal if there's gays or not in a movie/game/book as long as the plot is good (which in case of gw2 isn't, let's face it, gw2 story is awful). 

Same mate. Cant be mad at Relationships dragging the plot down, if the plot wasn't good to begin with.

[Labjax.2465]

45 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

By definition Mass media appeals to the majority, the masses and the most common denominator.

You do realize film execs were (still are?) making this exact excuse not to have more female leads in movies. Not LGBTQ female leads, just female leads period. It's almost like it's total BS and just justifying the status quo by using the status quo as evidence. "That's what sells" say the people who haven't tried anything else. "We've explored all of our (one) options extensively and found that all (one of them) pans out in a very particular way and nothing else works. Guess it's just a universal truth of life, sorry. What's that you say, there's more than one option? Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of our extremely loud and biased worldviews that we pretend don't impact our decisions here."

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Why does it even matter if the protagonist is male or female, hetero or straight? As long as the story is good... 

Enjoy the stuff for the plot not for whom the protagonist sleep with. 

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 7/31/2022 at 2:00 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Polls taken over the last decade have placed the younger generation (<20s) at ~40% LGBTQIA+, mostly bisexual

Latest research show ±4% of global population to be kitten- or bisexual (that is added together). <20s group is misleading, as anyone under 16 is automatically disqualified due to how law works in Europe, NA and Australia (Japan and Korea have a bit different laws). At the same time, "bisexual" IS a phase. And it is NORMAL part of sexuality - people discover their sexuality up till they are 30. It's not a bad phase, let people experiment and discover themselves, but it is still a phase, that tend to flip to one side or another most of the time. I'm not going to comment on [...]IA[...] part, as it is complex, highly sensitive topic, that touches mental health, development, physical condition of body and choice of individual (also, tends to lead to harpy screeching from all sides, with zero actual understanding in any of those topics).

 

On 7/31/2022 at 2:00 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Humans like to do stuff, and if you tell them its okay to do that stuff, they're going to do that stuff, and if they end up liking it, then they're probably going to do that stuff some more, and usually the only thing that keeps them from doing stuff is someone saying don't do that stuff.

Do you know what humans like? Survival. There is a reason, why overwhelming majority are heterosexual. You base assumption here is flawed. Your overall idea - let people live their lives should be adopted world wide with no regard to local customs/religions/etc.

On 7/31/2022 at 4:23 PM, Albi.7250 said:

You know for most of the human history and honestly still for most of the human population hetero sex is literally a prerequisite for the continuous existence of the family/country/Bloodline whatever

And homosexual relation before abrahamic religions came into Europe were part of almost every single culture. Be it germanic, nordic, indeoeuropean, helenic or latin. And if we look into nature, it is perfectly normal phenomenon.

[SlayerXX.7138]

8 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You do realize film execs were (still are?) making this exact excuse not to have more female leads in movies. Not LGBTQ female leads, just female leads period. It's almost like it's total BS and just justifying the status quo by using the status quo as evidence. "That's what sells" say the people who haven't tried anything else. "We've explored all of our (one) options extensively and found that all (one of them) pans out in a very particular way and nothing else works. Guess it's just a universal truth of life, sorry.

That is mostly the case for rebooted stuff , where female leads get retroactively inserted in historical male focused property.  Game of thrones has a ton of female leads all 5 seasons are widely loved. Rom coms have female leads nobody complaining. Avatar(the cartoon) has tons of female leads widely loved. Warcraft's sylvana is a fan favorite. Ghostbuster gender swaping the cast in an halve assed attempt of a reboot not gonna work. Female leads clearly work, but finding them in Fast and the furious 19 and Call of duty 33 won't happen. 

That's why i think searching in mass media is futile. When halve the kitten is rebooted stuff from the last century, where the western world was significant more conservative hoping you get your fair share of representation and a good story seems unlikely. You have to wait a couple of decades till the back catalogue of inclusive and good ips it big enough to milk them consistently. Avatar gets a netflix adaptation not because feminist demand more female representation, but because its just a good ip who happens to have a strong female cast.

Why ask for more gay characters in star wars when torchwood is right there. Why even bother with the Gw 2 cast, when dragon age lets you kitten halve the line up.

 

[Zok.4956]

On 7/30/2022 at 7:37 PM, Albi.7250 said:

The reason there isn't an on screen gay parring is most likely thanks to the too small male cast.

No. The only reason for this is: Because the devs/studio wanted it this way. They decide the cast and the stories and can always add a cast that suits their intended story.

[Bakeneko.5826]

15 hours ago, Zola.6197 said:

And yet no one seeks justification like this when a character is straight. It’s only queer characters that need to have narrative justification to be included, for some reason.

Critics literally write essays why romance sucks in films/books, when romance is just ploped in, like some overripen apple falling off the tree. Either do it right, or don't to it at all. Unless goal is to haven token stereotype to tick off some boxes.

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Because you need a Reason for the Inclusion, while almost every mainstream movie has a (hetero sexual)romantic sub plot by default.

So it becomes "we must include this, because it is politically correct" and ultimately feeling like homosexual relationships are third-rate, because story cannot be organically written about them? Or does it have to be some kind of "token character" that would actually degrade and insult homosexual people? Everything in creative media needs reason. That what makes good books good. You talk about #relatable, but you forget, that hetero and cis is most #relatable. That is why it is portrayed most. Money means more to most people than inclusion. Is it morally right or wrong - you decide.

10 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Rom coms have female leads nobody complaining

And there is a reason why sub-genre is called "chick-flick". Nobody is complaining, because they are marketed to women, as "made for women". You have given best example without realising - niche product for niche will be loved by niche.

12 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Avatar(the cartoon) has tons of female leads widely loved

And one with actual female as main lead (Korra) - hated.

13 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Female leads clearly work, but finding them in Fast and the furious 19 and Call of duty 33 won't happen. 

Let me remind you of kitten fiesta that was BFV trailer, that featured woman. Last of Us 2 story, that featured gay and transsexual characters. And those games sale numbers and scores. Even though Last of US 2 had superb story.

15 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

You have to wait a couple of decades till the back catalogue of inclusive and good ips it big enough to milk them consistently

Those reboots where berated for milking IPS and having some kind of agenda. Be it Oceans 8 or Ghostbusters. While movies, like Erin Brokovich, Telma and Louise, Sense and Sensibility, Alien or Blackswan were good - they had stories focused... on telling good story, not putting some ideal in front of audience. It feels like good story will be likes by everyone.

[Zok.4956]

On 7/31/2022 at 12:40 PM, Tom.8029 said:

If gender and sexual orientation are not included then they ARE excluded because of what I already said. Because we live in a world where heterosexuality and cisgender are the assumed norm.

I don't agree with that statement. If something (or someone) is not included in a fantasy game it just means that every player can fill out the missing things with their own fantasy coming from their own personal and cultural background.

BUT: In GW2 gender and sexual orientation are NOT excluded. They don't play a major role in the game but they are shown.

And if they are shown they were originally catering for the fantasies of "typical" young-male-players (so mostly male-female and female-female NPCs orientation, someone else in this thread explained it quite well). 

I don't think that the amount of NPCs with a specific gender or sexual orientation should be equal to their real world numbers. I don't think this bean counting will get us anywhere. But I think players of any gender identity and sexual orientation (and not just cis-hetero male players) should feel welcome in the game and be able to dream/act out their own fantasy.

Whether you can achieve that, within the limits of the main story/theme and the game, through more/different NPCs or through different stories is a matter for the studio, if they want to achieve that.

[Zola.6197]

6 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Why does it even matter if the protagonist is male or female, hetero or straight? As long as the story is good... 

Enjoy the stuff for the plot not for whom the protagonist sleep with. 

Says the one who has fiercely argued queer people don’t deserve to have pride for just existing, and then immediately stated that the same group of people deserve less for being a minority.

 

Seriously some the people in this thread are wildly homophobic and can’t even see it.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

Says the one who has fiercely argued queer people don’t deserve to have pride for just existing, and then immediately stated that the same group of people deserve less for being a minority.

 

Seriously some the people in this thread are wildly homophobic and can’t even see it.

What I said was having pride of your sexual attraction is ridiculous.
Hey! I'm proud of being white heterosexual blue eyes dude! Does that sounds right? Of course not. You should be proud of your achievements not of stuff you're born with.
Be proud of the rights the lgbt community got in all this time. Not proud because you feel horny for the same sex.

I didn't say any of that. I said industries exist for the sole purpose of making profit. 95% of the planet is hetero, so most movies/books/games have hetero relationships, I mean is that so hard to grasp?

I even said one of my favourite books is Carmilla from Sheridan le Fanu in which the protagonist is a lesbian. 
So don't play the victim card with me.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Cynder.2509]

I'd really see a ftm character in the future since we already have a mtf. Trans men are WAYYYYY to underrepresented in overall media. 

[Bakeneko.5826]

2 hours ago, Zola.6197 said:

Seriously some the people in this thread are wildly homophobic and can’t even see it.

The one who was stating damaging idea was you, but sure

[The Greyhawk.9107]

9 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Let me remind you of kitten fiesta that was BFV trailer, that featured woman. Last of Us 2 story, that featured gay and transsexual characters. And those games sale numbers and scores. Even though Last of US 2 had superb story.

An aside, but this last sentence very much a subjective opinion, not a statement of fact.