Mech haters - Do you really want harder builds to be stronger?

[Infinity.2876]

When considering whether or not to play warrior it's fairly a no brainer. Boring profession mechanic, not meta = don't play.

 

When considering an ele it's difficult because: complicated profession mechanic but can be rewarding, not meta. Then you tell yourself can I get gud.

 

When considering mechanist it's difficult because: boring profession(elite spec in this case) mechanic, is meta. Then you tell yourself how much you sacrifice of skill to get wins.

 

It's like math:

If you do algebra/calculus it's difficult you don't get many problems done. If you do preschool math you get lots of problems done but after a while you forget how to do algebra/calculus.

 

I've also noticed that the harbs on my team in spvp are really only spamming one skill but I'd they play something like dagger/dagger soulbeast (which isn't meta but viable) they would be required to actually think about the skills they are pressing

 

I'd like it if:

Effort = reward,

But life just doesn't really work that way

 

Y'all can play 🍔 and sprockets till you actually decide to look at the monitor but just consider playing an unmeta build once in a while so your brains don't fall out

 

Mechanist doesn't need to be nerfed but beserkers need to zerk and chronos need to have the same effect as the holy grail in Indiana Jones and the last crusade.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 8/5/2022 at 6:49 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

I'm curious what you mean by "trade-offs". 

I hear that claim thrown around on occasion. "Mech does everything with no trade-off", which is untrue if we're going by the generally understood definition of what a trade-off is in this game. 

Do you mean Mech is like Untamed or Tempestwhere the Elite spec has no real trade-offs?

If so, that's false because it gives up its toolbelt.

 

A lot of our high value skills are placed into our toolbelt. Elixir Gun and Slick shoes stunbreaks. Our heal skill in med kit. Toss Elixir R, Toss Elixir S, Surprise Shot. 

If playing HAM and using med kit, we also can't use Cleansing Synergy or Reconstruction Enclosure because we need Bandage Self to proc these traits. We also lose an important burst heal. 

If anything that is one of the hardest trade-offs in the game, but because this is a trade-off we get something in exchange, a pet that is able to make up for the loss of our toolbelts, and the accompanying traits that go with them. 

If you want to make Mech more skillful in general, I'd suggest asking for toolbelts to be added back when mech is stowed, then nerfing the jade mech accordingly. This introduces 4 new skills to manage (assuming no elite toolbelt), and requires the player to strategically recall and resummon their mech to access them.  

I'd  speed up the recall animation if this is done so that it isn't clunky to do. 

 

Do you mean it doesn't have trait-based trade-offs? You just get the boon without having to devote a trait to it, like Catalyst did pre-nerf?

If so, this is also false. The middle traitline is for boons. Top is for condi, Bottom is for power. This is as plain a trade-off as it gets as far as traits go. 

 

Do you mean we don't have to take any core traitlines to flesh out or boon list like elementalist has to go earth for stab, fire/water for cleanses, and air for fury/swiftness?

This is where the argument has some merit. We don't have our supportive effects spread out as much as elementalist does. Most of our support is contained within Alchemy and Inventions. 

It's still not entirely true that no trade-off exists whatsoever, because we have to actually invest in these traitlines to play a support role. We aren't doing it while taking Firearms or Explosives for extra dps, that would cause us to lose the all important Alch-Inventions synergy. 

In this instance, the trade-off isn't as harsh as it is for elementalist but it's not non-existant. The claim there is no trade-off here is still hyperbolic. 

 

Mech is a powerful build, sure, but I think you're misinterpreting "strong" for "has no trade-offs whatsoever". They are not the same thing. 

 

 

A trade off is when you get something in one area but lose something in another, to balance things out.

High ranged dps but immobile for example. High ranged dps but no cleave. High dps but melee etc.

Mechanist has no trade off. Its high ranged dps with lots of cc, cleave, braindead rotation and a stunbreak + blink in the meta dps build.

It feels like one of these asian autocombat mmos at this point. Needs more lootboxes and more gemstore popups during encounters. Stat buffs were nerfed recently so a 36k build now is like a 40k from before the patch. Half of the other power specs are in the 31-33k range now. Only bladesworn, soulbeast and catalyst do more damage than rifle mech and 2 of those have extremely big trade offs. Bladesworn has basically 0aa dps and gets punished very hard for mistakes. Not praying enough to rng'sus and getting fixate on sloth for example. So much counterplay.

The funny thing is that i tried this thing in raids in pugs are too bad even for this. they somehow still manage to lack 50% dps. Auto attacking is just too hard.

I did 24k dps on sabetha with this thing today. No bloodlust. In a pug basically facerolling. Thats top tier damage while being semi afk. completely removes any feeling of accomplishment when playing harder specs which need to work hard to get similar results or cant even get those results at all like vinditrash.

And i did ask for core condi and holo buffs. this faceroll design since the scourge buff a year ago ruined fractals for me.

[Zok.4956]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Consistency in GW2 has never been that strong between the different build options; it's just a convenient thing to complain about NOW that people see something they don't want in the game

I have a different perception: There have been many complaints and criticisms about poor balancing in GW2 for years. Bad balancing is also the reason why the (quit big at the time) PvP szene left the game several years ago when Anet still had E-sports ambitions with the game. etc. etc.

Maybe this criticism is now just more focused and visible for some because of Mechanist LI build beeing such an outlier (and because of the other things I wrote about previously).

[Alcatraznc.3869]

2 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

I just want Holo to have a reason to exist now that autoattack-bot is in the game. Didn't sign up for a pet class when i made my engi 5 years ago.

 

Then good for you because not only Anet doesnt force you to play Mechanist but Holosmith didnt get changed at all. If anything rifle Holosmith is now better than it was previously. It is still better than Mech spam 1

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

A trade off is when you get something in one area but lose something in another, to balance things out.

High ranged dps but immobile for example. High ranged dps but no cleave. High dps but melee etc.

Mechanist has no trade off. Its high ranged dps with lots of cc, cleave, braindead rotation and a stunbreak + blink in the meta dps build.

 

I get what you're saying. You're saying Effort vs Reward is a trade-off. The more effort your build takes, the more rewarding it should be, and vise versa. And while Mech does not abide by this particular definition, that does not mean "Mech has no trade-offs."

This is a hyperbolic and misleading statement. 

As many people have mentioned before. Mech loses core engi toolbelts. That includes stunbreaks, cleanses, burst skills (grenade barrage) our heal skill on med kit. Heal mech cannot proc on heal and on-heal rune effects because of this. We also sacrifice an entire traitline entirely for the jade-bot, so naturally it's going to be stronger than other pets. No other pet class gives up as much for their pet. 

Mech has some harsh sacrifices, but it has also gets a lot of compensation in exchange for that. Which is how trade-offs work. 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

I have a different perception: There have been many complaints and criticisms about poor balancing in GW2 for years. Bad balancing is also the reason why the (quit big at the time) PvP szene left the game several years ago when Anet still had E-sports ambitions with the game. etc. etc.

Maybe this criticism is now just more focused and visible for some because of Mechanist LI build beeing such an outlier (and because of the other things I wrote about previously).

Sure, people don't like the balancing in this game but the rotation needed to get a certain amount of DPS is not a balancing issue. Balancing has NOTHING to do with how many buttons someone pushes. It's about results and the fact is that the result of power rifle mechanist is a decent amount of DPS. That's a very reasonable proposition to a team, which is what LI builds NEED to be about for the game to be more inclusive. 

People just need to get over themselves with these ideas about how their worth in the game is related to what other people do or not do. There is no relation there; they invent it to claim they are grieved. Play how you want. Let others do the same ... no problems. All of PVE is cooperative here. There is no 'win' in attacking the existence of LI builds, just like there is no win in attacking people not using meta builds. 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Nephalem.8921]

58 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I get what you're saying. You're saying Effort vs Reward is a trade-off. The more effort your build takes, the more rewarding it should be, and vise versa. And while Mech does not abide by this particular definition, that does not mean "Mech has no trade-offs."

This is a hyperbolic and misleading statement. 

As many people have mentioned before. Mech loses core engi toolbelts. That includes stunbreaks, cleanses, burst skills (grenade barrage) our heal skill on med kit. Heal mech cannot proc on heal and on-heal rune effects because of this. We also sacrifice an entire traitline entirely for the jade-bot, so naturally it's going to be stronger than other pets. No other pet class gives up as much for their pet. 

Mech has some harsh sacrifices, but it has also gets a lot of compensation in exchange for that. Which is how trade-offs work. 

 

 

No, you did not get it at all. Effort vs reward is one possible trade-off. But no build should ever be allowed to be high dps, high cleave, high cc, high mobility and fully ranged on top.

But it does not even stop there. it has also 30%+ self quickness uptime and brings 25 vuln. being braindead to play is just the cherry on top. Scourge was in a similar situation before which resulted in a 30% playrate in fractals and everyone and their mom playing it in raids.

Being good at everything is much worse for the meta than an overperforming dps which doesnt check some of those boxes. Staff weaver never reached those playrates even when it did 40% more dps than the next best option.

Another sleeper offender is specter. Not really because it does 39k dps but because its 0.5healer in full dps gear on top of being one of the best dps and its also obviously very easy to play and ranged. You could even sacrifice 6% dps for some vitality gear and get close to hfb numbers on a dps build. It has at least no cleave. Takes probably another 2 years until pugs learn this.

There was a vg speedkill and 2 dps alac specters were the only healers. they somehow made a spec which is more busted than scourge.

2 things should be balanced against each other. High utility + high dps. It gets completely insane if you also add range to that and if it doesnt even need a player to do those things.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, people don't like the balancing in this game but the rotation needed to get a certain amount of DPS is not a balancing issue. Balancing has NOTHING to do with how many buttons someone pushes. It's about results and the fact is that the result of power rifle mechanist is a decent amount of DPS. That's a very reasonable proposition to a team, which is what LI builds NEED to be about for the game to be more inclusive. 

People just need to get over themselves with these ideas about how their worth in the game is related to what other people do or not do. There is no relation there; they invent it to claim they are grieved. Play how you want. Let others do the same ... no problems. All of PVE is cooperative here. There is no 'win' in attacking the existence of LI builds, just like there is no win in attacking people not using meta builds. 

 

Not sure why you comment on endgame content when you have not played that in years. Do you have the game installed? Have you ever done more than press 1 content?

I could not find a single log of you. No kp.me account either. This is incredibly unlikely for someone playing at least monthly unless you play only with a static and never pug in which case you could not argue about such topics either. Or is this your forum only account to hide your real one? With 11k posts?

Sorry but every time i read some of your posts i get the feeling that you have not played this game in years or never played more than open world to begin with. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Zok.4956]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, people don't like the balancing in this game but the rotation needed to get a certain amount of DPS is not a balancing issue. Balancing has NOTHING to do with how many buttons someone pushes

Sure, for some it is about "like" or "not like" but it is still a fact that balancing in this game is bad in several aspects. It is completely OK if you or others don't care about balancing. But there are players, that do care about balancing. And yes, classes or class variants that are outliers in several aspects are also a part of balancing.

 

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

People just need to get over themselves with these ideas about how their worth in the game is related to what other people do or not do.

I am not sure why you responded this to me. Are you arguing in bad faith or just misunderstood what I wrote? I don't care about what other players play (and if I play in a group/team in competitive play or challenging content I don't care about it as long as it helps the group somehow) and I think more LI builds would be good for this game. But I still think that how Mech was buffed and also WHY (a dev wanted an advantage for his own playstyle) is NOT good for this game.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Zok.4956

[Tails.9372]

4 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

how Mech was buffed ... is NOT good for this game.

Except it petty much is, people acting as if this "buff" had any profound impact on how the related builds perform: it didn't. All it really did was to make what the mech does on its own look less monotonous.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Tails.9372

[ThunderX.6591]

I am asking all of you here.

WHO and WHEN  was decided that more effort = better reward is the rule? In real world that happen rarely, and many other games have totally OP classes who are really easy to play and do 1/3 more dps than an hard to play class and all was ok, until a balance come to reduce that, then, the game loose players like water when someone opened a dam..... and well, after some times, some changes were reverted (not all, but some were) and people stopped leaving en masses, unfortunatelly, who have left, didn't return, cause found new places (games) where to play, and the game was set on the long way to oblivion from not enough people in it).

So, i don't see a problem here, where i see a problem is the fact people ask for nerf instead of asking for buffs to the other "not so good" classes there are in the game, i am sure some buffs to them would impact the game in a really better way then what is atm.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

31 minutes ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

I am asking all of you here.

WHO and WHEN  was decided that more effort = better reward is the rule? In real world that happen rarely, and many other games have totally OP classes who are really easy to play and do 1/3 more dps than an hard to play class and all was ok, until a balance come to reduce that, then, the game loose players like water when someone opened a dam..... and well, after some times, some changes were reverted (not all, but some were) and people stopped leaving en masses, unfortunatelly, who have left, didn't return, cause found new places (games) where to play, and the game was set on the long way to oblivion from not enough people in it).

So, i don't see a problem here, where i see a problem is the fact people ask for nerf instead of asking for buffs to the other "not so good" classes there are in the game, i am sure some buffs to them would impact the game in a really better way then what is atm.

People are so used to be a slaves at work currently that they'll happily wag their tail whenever they get the same payment when doing more difficult stuff than others. Impressive. Truly. 

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

8 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

People are so used to be a slaves at work currently that they'll happily wag their tail whenever they get the same payment when doing more difficult stuff than others. Impressive. Truly. 

People gave me confused's for comparing meta's and pressing 1 to punching in at work lol.

[Kuma.1503]

 

14 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

No, you did not get it at all. Effort vs reward is one possible trade-off. But no build should ever be allowed to be high dps, high cleave, high cc, high mobility and fully ranged on top.

But it does not even stop there. it has also 30%+ self quickness uptime and brings 25 vuln. being braindead to play is just the cherry on top. Scourge was in a similar situation before which resulted in a 30% playrate in fractals and everyone and their mom playing it in raids.

Being good at everything is much worse for the meta than an overperforming dps which doesnt check some of those boxes. Staff weaver never reached those playrates even when it did 40% more dps than the next best option.

Another sleeper offender is specter. Not really because it does 39k dps but because its 0.5healer in full dps gear on top of being one of the best dps and its also obviously very easy to play and ranged. You could even sacrifice 6% dps for some vitality gear and get close to hfb numbers on a dps build. It has at least no cleave. Takes probably another 2 years until pugs learn this.

There was a vg speedkill and 2 dps alac specters were the only healers. they somehow made a spec which is more busted than scourge.

2 things should be balanced against each other. High utility + high dps. It gets completely insane if you also add range to that and if it doesnt even need a player to do those things.

Fair points.

You had me confused by "trade-offs" because that's not typically how the term is used in the context of GW2. What immediately comes to mind when I hear trade-off is Impact Savant's -100 Vitality for 5% barrier. Willbender losing Virtue passives for stronger actives, ect. 

I think phasing it terms of pros and cons would be better. 

Looking at rifle Mech from that angle, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Mechanist handles almost any situation well. Anything deeper than a shallow puddle makes them recoil in fear because water and electronics don't mix, but if you ignore that... yeah, Mech can deal good damage from range, has good cleave, can tank a little bit of dps to bring projectile destruction, cleanses, extra CC, boon rip with throw mine, ect. 

Reflects can be an issue, but those are rare in PvE. 

There aren't too many cons to Power Mech minus the aquaphobia. 

However, it is worth noting that this isn't a feature unique to mechanist. The versatility to handle any situation as far as DPS goes is something that Power Engineer builds in general excel at. Albiet it did require a bit more effort on Holosmith and Scrapper. 

Take Power Sword holo for example. Good burst, good CC, good scholar rune uptime thanks to Heat therapy, good mobility, and can trait for superspeed on fights where that is relevant. (Carin for example). Could quickly get in range of boss thanks to both its leaps, and had decent self quickness application if uptime was lacking thanks to sword 3. Had Nade kit to fall back on if forced out of range of boss (you can also toss this behind you which is relevant on fights like Souless Horror where you might turn your back to the boss to avoid flame wall. Snap ground target can make aiming easier for you as well). 

It had great vuln uptime thanks to Steel packed Powder and Corona Burst. 

Just generally a very good power build that you were never upset to have around. 

 

Scrapper shares these benefits (minus quickness on pure dps), but maintains Scholar rune with Impact Savant instead, and since they run mortar they can deal damage from 1200 range (Snap ground target is still your friend if you struggle with aiming). Also has good cleave, decent CC (you to use hammer 5 during your rotation so you do have to watch this), a nifty rez, superspeed, and some miscellaneous utility if it is needed. Also generally a good build. Somewhat low on the DPS, but it translated well into actual encounters due to the things I mentioned. 

 

This is all worth bringing up because it means toning Mechanist down in this regard would require nerfing Core. Despite these things, Engi was never really a balance issue in the past, so I'm curious why it is now? Is it because Mech has these strengths in addition to being easy to play? Would you be upset at these things if Mech was more difficult? Or do you think these things were unhealthy even on Power Holo?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Nephalem.8921]

16 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

 

Fair points.

You had me confused by "trade-offs" because that's not typically how the term is used in the context of GW2. What immediately comes to mind when I hear trade-off is Impact Savant's -100 Vitality for 5% barrier. Willbender losing Virtue passives for stronger actives, ect. 

I think phasing it terms of pros and cons would be better. 

Looking at rifle Mech from that angle, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Mechanist handles almost any situation well. Anything deeper than a shallow puddle makes them recoil in fear because water and electronics don't mix, but if you ignore that... yeah, Mech can deal good damage from range, has good cleave, can tank a little bit of dps to bring projectile destruction, cleanses, extra CC, boon rip with throw mine, ect. 

There aren't too many cons to Power Mech minus the aquaphobia. 

However, it is worth noting that this isn't a feature unique to mechanist. The versatility to handle any situation as far as DPS goes is something that Power Engineer builds in general excel at. Albiet it did require a bit more effort on Holosmith and Scrapper. 

Take Power Sword holo for example. Good burst, good CC, good scholar rune uptime thanks to Heat therapy, good mobility, and can trait for superspeed on fights where that is relevant. (Carin for example). Could quickly get in range of boss thanks to both its leaps, and had decent self quickness application is uptime was lacking thanks to sword 3. Had Nade kit to fall back on if forced out of range of boss (you can also toss this behind you which is relevant on fights like Souless Horror where you might turn your back to the boss to avoid flame wall. Snap ground target can make aiming easier for you as well). 

It had great vuln uptime thanks to Steel packed Powder and Corona Burst. 

Just generally a very good power build that you were never upset to have around. 

 

Scrapper shares these benefits (minus quickness on pure dps), but maintains Scholar rune with Impact Savant instead, and since they run mortar they can deal damage from 1200 range (Snap ground target is still your friend if you struggle with aiming). Also has good cleave, decent CC (you to use hammer 5 during your rotation so you do have to watch this), a nifty rez, superspeed, and some miscellaneous utility if it is needed. Also generally a good build. Somewhat low on the DPS, but it translated well into actual encounters due to the things I mentioned. 

 

This is all worth bringing up because it means toning Mechanist down in this regard would require nerfing Core. Despite these things, Engi was never really a balance issue in the past, so I'm curious why it is now? Is it because Mech has these strengths in addition to being easy to play? Would you be upset at these things if Mech was more difficult?

 

Holo does not have great mobility. Superspeed is not even close to being as powerful as a 1200 range blink. While true both can do some dps at range. They drop extremely hard in dps if they have to. Not 0 but ~13k dps at best. Meanwhile mech can still do 30k+ from 1200 range away.

And scrapper does and always did trash dps. Both builds are essentially melee with very minor range dps. They can not handle a lot of mechanics like dhuum greens, ht cm greens or KO cm sniper shot quickly with blink. Their mobility is running but slightly faster. Thats not great mobility.

Rifle mech can pillar kite and kite qadim1. with its standard meta build...

There is no underwater part in endgame content minus 1 fractal which everyone skips. The scrapper rez is actually hurting the quickness build since it gets a cd increase for some unknown reason which cuts your quickness uptime. Meanwhile scourge is allowed to rez the entire team every 12sec. Balanced i guess.

Nobody played dps scrapper. Only quickness scrapper is played on a few bosses. You underestimate how op ranged builds are in this game. No casttime means not affected by mechanics at all and it shows in the new strike cms. Aetherblade is the only fight where ranged specs arent just straight up better than melee yet melee but its still a mechanist, specter, virtuoso fiesta.

Rifle mechanist doesnt handle "almost" every situation well. it handles every situation well. 

[Lottie.5370]

The problem with Mech being so strong is not just because it's "easy", it's because you can literally AFK and be top DPS. Your mech does everything automatically, and you can just auto attack. You don't even need to use other skills.

 

THAT is the problem. I love that LI/easy builds exist, even if I don't use them, because I feel like it makes a lot of content more accessible to people that don't enjoy/can't do hard rotations. Mechanist just takes it too far.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

31 minutes ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

People gave me confused's for comparing meta's and pressing 1 to punching in at work lol.

I'm also confused at their confused emotes. The beauty of life I believe.
It is, what it is, my friend.

[Tails.9372]

41 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Engi was never really a balance issue in the past, so I'm curious why it is now?

It's not an issue, people are just jumping on a bandwagon for the outrage of the week. "30%+ self quickness uptime and brings 25 vuln" that's both outclassed by similar builds and partly wrong, you only get 13-19 vuln and thats with celestial gear so pure damage builds offer considerably less in that regard. 30% selfish self quickness is also nothing to write home about, Harbinger has more uptime on pulsing AoE quickness. This is not about "effort vs. performance" or content "getting trivialized" as otherwise things like Mirage and defensive support should have been constant sorces of bigger "outrage" but as always in that regard: crickets, which (in combination that people constantly move the goalpost with their complaints, e.g.: "I'm perfectly 100% fine with LI builds being decent the only issue I have is that this is literally "0 APM" ... and all the utility you also have by using all your other skills") tells you everything you need to know about the true nature of these complaints.

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

6 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

It's not an issue, people are just jumping on a bandwagon for the outrage of the week. "30%+ self quickness uptime and brings 25 vuln" that's both outclassed by similar builds and partly wrong, you only get 13-19 vuln and thats with celestial gear so pure damage builds offer considerably less in that regard. 30% selfish self quickness is also nothing to write home about, Harbinger has more uptime on pulsing AoE quickness. This is not about "effort vs. performance" or content "getting trivialized" as otherwise things like Mirage and defensive support should have been constant sorces of bigger "outrage" but as always in that regard: crickets, which (in combination that people constantly move the goalpost with their complaints, e.g.: "I'm perfectly 100% fine with LI builds being decent the only issue I have is that this is literally "0 APM" ... and all the utility you also have by using all your other skills") tells you everything you need to know about the true nature of these complaints.

Almost 25% of the raid playerbase jumped on the Mechanist train for no reason, Thanks for the insight. /s

Edited August 7, 2022 by TheSeraphim.7413

[Tails.9372]

10 minutes ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

Almost 25% of the raid playerbase jumped on the Mechanist train for no reason, Thanks for the insight. /s

Because every raider is really good at the game (especially those that play "DPS" exclusively) and the average raid group only plays what's optimal for any given situation. /s

Edited August 7, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The argument is not about having higher apm builds do more dps. The issue is how combat has degenerated to aoe spamming support and auto attack rotations. This isnt the kind of gameplay gw2 was initially designed for and it has ruined much of what was fun about combat. So yes, you can do fractal CMs and raids with auto attacking mechs and mantra spamming firebrands. But that playstyle is only a novelty which quickly gets boring and makes people quit the game for good once they realize there is no depth left to classes.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Paradoxoglanis.1904

[Tails.9372]

17 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

But that playstyle is only a novelty which quickly gets boring and makes people quit the game for good once they realize there is no depth left to classes.

Except the thing is the more complex builds still exists and also perform considerately better if executed correctly. Even just for rifle mechanist itslef "hitting your other buttons" still gets you a 8-10k dps increase. Also, engi rifle has never been a complex weapon set to begin with, the "what it has become" only applies if they dumped something already existing down.

[Nephalem.8921]

39 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

It's not an issue, people are just jumping on a bandwagon for the outrage of the week. "30%+ self quickness uptime and brings 25 vuln" that's both outclassed by similar builds and partly wrong, you only get 13-19 vuln and thats with celestial gear so pure damage builds offer considerably less in that regard. 30% selfish self quickness is also nothing to write home about, Harbinger has more uptime on pulsing AoE quickness. This is not about "effort vs. performance" or content "getting trivialized" as otherwise things like Mirage and defensive support should have been constant sorces of bigger "outrage" but as always in that regard: crickets, which (in combination that people constantly move the goalpost with their complaints, e.g.: "I'm perfectly 100% fine with LI builds being decent the only issue I have is that this is literally "0 APM" ... and all the utility you also have by using all your other skills") tells you everything you need to know about the true nature of these complaints.

Quick harb has actually 24% self generation. No aoe at all since thats a trait which the dps version does not take since it costs massive amounts of dps.

Mechanist has ~52% self generation actually. Its ridiculous. Enjoy your spam 1 content if thats what you want. Can exist but should do nowhere close to the dps its currently doing. It does indeed trivialize all the pve content in the game to the point of screen saver difficulty.

[Ashgar.3024]

18 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Then good for you because not only Anet doesnt force you to play Mechanist but Holosmith didnt get changed at all. If anything rifle Holosmith is now better than it was previously. It is still better than Mech spam 1

 

Holo has been deleted from end game PvE content from any practical point of view.

Snowcrows literally deleted their Holo guide.

https://snowcrows.com/builds?category=meta&profession=Engineer

A pure melee build just can't compete with Mecanist, period.

I just don't see why Mec absolutely needs to be a viable Tank, Healer, Alac Provider, Power DPS and cDPS all in one package.

Whole point of Elite Specs is filling a niche.

(Yes i'm aware FB is also a problem in that regard and i also want ti to get looked at.).

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Lottie.5370 said:

The problem with Mech being so strong is not just because it's "easy", it's because you can literally AFK and be top DPS. Your mech does everything automatically, and you can just auto attack. You don't even need to use other skills.

 

THAT is the problem. I love that LI/easy builds exist, even if I don't use them, because I feel like it makes a lot of content more accessible to people that don't enjoy/can't do hard rotations. Mechanist just takes it too far.

Well, you actually can't AFK because the encounter will require a player to interact with it's mechanics. If an encounter doesn't have these mechanics that require players to interact with them, it's just a glorified DPS golem anyways. That's not a build issue, that's a encounter design problem. 

Again, the game is MORE than just doing DPS. If anything, the existence of these builds and their effectiveness reinforces the fact that the game is MORE about engaging with encounter mechanics that learning a DPS rotation. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952