Whats the point of "pure DPS" elite specs now?

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

how is it not a problem , having the squishiest class of the game underperforming for 5years ...

because people have the choice to not play it if sustain and performance are part of their criteria for how they make a build or choose a class.

And for the record, Ele is definitely NOT an underperformer and can be built to be  very sustainable. I mean, do you even know what you are talking about here?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

i can understand the game atm is pretty hard to balance ,, and i trust anet gonna do something about the flaws but stop denying that actually everything goes for the emch and thats way not fair.

[zeyeti.8347]

 

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

because people have the choice to not play it if being squishy and 'underperforming' is part of their criteria for how they make a build. And for the record, Ele is not an underperformer and be built to be quite sustainable. 

sustainable ? tell me how ? and criteria is like  " hmmmm do i choose to be weak or do i choose to be srong ". yeah hard choice ....

Edited August 18, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[zeyeti.8347]

this is turning to a drama i will do as i a said 15 lines up , ignore you , you live in a world of care bears , where you think everything is equal , stay there ! good for you and a pleasure to never read anything from you !

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

 

sustainable ? tell me how ? and criteria is like  " hmmmm do i choose to eb weak or do i choose to be srong ". yeah hard chocie ....

What do you mean tell you how? Are you actually denying that Ele has strong sustain builds? OK sure ... I'm going to assume you just haven't done the research here. 

That's OK because it's not relevant to the discussion anyways. If you can't get ele to work for you because it 'underperforms' or it's 'squishy' (both 🙄) ... you need to evaluate the choices you make for what you play and how you play it in the game. At this point, it feels like you're just one of these people that doesn't want to make the choices, you just want Anet to change the game for you to accommodate you for the one option you are married to.  

Again, to the whole point of the thread ... the 'point' of all these specs and builds existing is just a wide range of choices to players to best accommodate WHATEVER criteria they want to use to choose any of those choices. Artificially restricting those criteria to the singular 'performance' characteristic to attempt to degrade those options is deplorable.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

11 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

you live in a world of care bears 

Well, believe what you like ... but whatever the world I live in, it's the one where the reality of the game is and that reality is a wide variety of build options available to a wide variety of player capabilities, all able to do content and be successful with them. If that's a problem to you because you are unable to make good choices on how you play that fits you, that's not a problem Anet needs to fix for you. 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Kalthea.4326]

The short answer is that they're there to do just Pure DPS, good for if you enjoy the rotation, or don't wanna provide boons.

 

However, it has come to be that playing Support DPS now churns out only slightly less damage than just being a Pure DPS, and often ends up being an easier rotation. At the end of the day, it's a "play what you want" situation, but the question that should be asked is "how do Pure DPS classes compare to other classes?", and I'd argue that they come up short. They can be fun to play, and do content, but they're selfish, and often times people will want a Support over a Pure, allowing for full boon uptime. It's a problem that we all saw coming, but isn't going away any time soon. The best we can do it keep pushing for changes that alter this meta, and actually allow for good build craft, multiple builds per class, and a reduction in over-powering boons and conditions like alacrity and quickness in PvE, and stability, aegis, and blind in PvP. I'm hoping the upcoming patch will provide a good chunk of build craft for all of the classes getting buffs, though a lot of the build craft issues stem more from utility skills and not weaponry (though weapons do need a buff).

[Kodama.6453]

On 8/9/2022 at 12:48 AM, Ashgar.3024 said:

Tell me with a straight face Druid, Firebrand, Scrapper, Scourge, Tempest and even Specter weren't built from the ground up to be support specs from the start.

One of these is not like the others....

Scrapper was not supposed to be a support spec from the start. It was a bruiser spec, it literally had only selfish traits and the hammer provides no support for allies at all. Gyros were all the supportive feature it had, but this hardly made it a support spec, especially since the first iteration of the gyros didn't share quickness and was generally really clunky.

I agree that druid, firebrand, scourge, tempest and specter were designed to be support specs primarily. But scrapper is not oneof them.

[Ashgar.3024]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

One of these is not like the others....

Scrapper was not supposed to be a support spec from the start. It was a bruiser spec, it literally had only selfish traits and the hammer provides no support for allies at all. Gyros were all the supportive feature it had, but this hardly made it a support spec, especially since the first iteration of the gyros didn't share quickness and was generally really clunky.

I agree that druid, firebrand, scourge, tempest and specter were designed to be support specs primarily. But scrapper is not oneof them.

It was supposed to be a tank as early HoT raids attempted to bring back the trinity until the tanking role got more or less phased out in profit of boon support roles.

 

Tanks are technically supports anyway.

 

Now they're actual bruisers+boon supports.

[Kuma.1503]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

because people have the choice to not play it if sustain and performance are part of their criteria for how they make a build or choose a class.

And for the record, Ele is definitely NOT an underperformer and can be built to be  very sustainable. I mean, do you even know what you are talking about here?

Agree and disagree. 

A problem I've noticed with a lot of ele mains is that they can fall into a very negative mentality about the class, overblowing its flaws and downplaying its strengths. 

At the end of the day, it's a difficult class. More effort is required to gain value out of it, and while it is daunting at first to put in more effort for less reward, that becomes less and less of an issue as familiarity with the class grows. The amount of effort required is reduced as muscle memory eventually takes over, and all you're left with is the reward. 

And the reward is there in some cases. Condi weaver, power cata, and alac/heal tempest are all in a decent spot, but not without their flaws. DPS could certainly be higher on Weaver and Cata, and Tempest can be frustrating to play without stab on overload on certain fights where you're expected to dodge incoming CC instead of moving out of an AoE. (The stupid boss who stuns on every 3rd swing in fractals for example). 

In spite of that, I wouldn't say any of these builds are underperforming, just difficult to perform well on, which isn't a problem. 

 

Then there's power weaver, quickness cata, and the atrocity that is meteor shower sprinkle. Each of these are definitely underperforming. Even if you factor out the amount of effort they take. Quick Cata is well below other quickness supports in both utility AND dps. It has a wide variety of boons at its disposal, but the energy system prevents it from giving out resistance/prot without making sacrifices and throwing its rotation out of whack.

Energy should really be scrapped on Catalyst. CDs on spheres should be enough. 

 

Then there's power weaver. Which does less DPS than boon supports. In no world is that okay. Selfish DPS centric builds should deal higher damage than supports. Period. Full stop. If they don't they're underperforming. 

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Agree and disagree. 

A problem I've noticed with a lot of ele mains is that they can fall into a very negative mentality about the class, overblowing its flaws and downplaying its strengths. 

At the end of the day, it's a difficult class. More effort is required to gain value out of it, and while it is daunting at first to put in more effort for less reward, that becomes less and less of an issue as familiarity with the class grows. The amount of effort required is reduced as muscle memory eventually takes over, and all you're left with is the reward. 

And the reward is there in some cases. Condi weaver, power cata, and alac/heal tempest are all in a decent spot, but not without their flaws. DPS could certainly be higher on Weaver and Cata, and Tempest can be frustrating to play without stab on overload on certain fights where you're expected to dodge incoming CC instead of moving out of an AoE. (The stupid boss who stuns on every 3rd swing in fractals for example). 

In spite of that, I wouldn't say any of these builds are underperforming, just difficult to perform well on, which isn't a problem. 

 

Then there's power weaver, quickness cata, and the atrocity that is meteor shower sprinkle. Each of these are definitely underperforming. Even if you factor out the amount of effort they take. Quick Cata is well below other quickness supports in both utility AND dps. It has a wide variety of boons at its disposal, but the energy system prevents it from giving out resistance/prot without making sacrifices and throwing its rotation out of whack.

Energy should really be scrapped on Catalyst. CDs on spheres should be enough. 

 

Then there's power weaver. Which does less DPS than boon supports. In no world is that okay. Selfish DPS centric builds should deal higher damage than supports. Period. Full stop. If they don't they're underperforming. 

 

You know, this comes back down to players being honest with themselves and asking what they want from a class and making choices appropriate for what they are looking for. As far as Ele goes, it's ALOT more capable than the poster I was replying to indicated ... So I had to put a nail in that coffin. 

I'm not denying issues exist on almost everything but the point of things in the game isn't always to address a function or fill a role. MOST of the choices in this game, are simply there as choices. I mean, think about the beginning where there was no roles. Literally, Anet could have made a game with just one class and not traits because you didn't need it to play the game. So the conclusion here ... the choices exist purely for the variety they add to the game. Anyone trying to be rhetorical about 'purpose' to complain about the state of some spec ... it's not clever anymore. Choice for the sake of choice is only going to become more predominant as we get more especs. 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

Agree and not , if those are in a decent spot more people should play it , no ? not the case and about the reward for playing those , get the good example of alactempest , if you are only one time failing your overload , just one time ,interrupted or dodge an incoming one shot : there goes your alac , cya . Look at mech , he pulse alac afk , the mech give a barrier every 3secs passively to nearby allies and so give 1-2 secs alac , + aa on mace last hit give barrier too , it's a 100% uptime without any risk... why bother playing alactempest ? you are a fan of fire , water etc , well nice i am a fan of efficiency and when i take an insurence i take the full package !

 

True on the bad design for the pwoer specs , the -10% damage dealt on spectacular sphere is an abomination , who literaly make me puke when i hover on it with my mouse , you do that that and that and ooohhh and also we input yourself a -10% damage dealt ... disgusting design ... but i agree with anet for the first change , baseline quickness was indeed a bad idea.

At last good news , people were complaining for the ns on nerf on mirage and anet cancelled those .

Appreciate a lot the "we will focus more on builds that are dominating the meta, rather than builds that could theoretically dominate". and meta is engi mech if no one guessed.

Edited August 19, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Lol, Obtena.
GW2 have effectively 36 "classes" and 1 elite specialization (not a class) takes 26% of slots in end game content. Do the math yourself.
In theory, each and every class should have around of 11% of total representantion in end game content to be "balanced" to a degree, yet 1 of subclasses takes 26%, something is quite wrong here.

[Karagee.6830]

21 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Lol, Obtena.
GW2 have effectively 36 "classes" and 1 elite specialization (not a class) takes 26% of slots in end game content. Do the math yourself.
In theory, each and every class should have around of 11% of total representantion in end game content to be "balanced" to a degree, yet 1 of subclasses takes 26%, something is quite wrong here.

He seems to think those are all support mechanists.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Lol, Obtena.
GW2 have effectively 36 "classes" and 1 elite specialization (not a class) takes 26% of slots in end game content. Do the math yourself.
In theory, each and every class should have around of 11% of total representantion in end game content to be "balanced" to a degree, yet 1 of subclasses takes 26%, something is quite wrong here.

The math isn't what's being disputed. The dispute is what portion of that 26% are support or power rifle mechs. That matters ALOT if there is a discussion about how to fix it. Some people are using their crystal balls to proclaim it's mostly power rifle users. That doesn't make sense based on the DPS stats from the same data source ...

but ok, use the data that supports your position, ignore the data that doesn't. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Karagee.6830]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The math isn't what's being disputed. The dispute is what portion of that 26% are support or power rifle mechs. That matters ALOT if there is a discussion about how to fix it. Some people are using their crystal balls to proclaim it's mostly power rifle users. That doesn't make sense based on the DPS stats from the same data source ...

but ok, use the data that supports your position, ignore the data that doesn't. 

yeah because power mechanists using kit (superior to rifle), flamwthrower (superior to rifle) and mace (superior to everything) don't exist. 

If you take some context around half of that 26% are dps. Count all the other support specs (give an estimate to the hfb v qfb split) and you can calculate it yourself.

[Kuma.1503]

6 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Lol, Obtena.
GW2 have effectively 36 "classes" and 1 elite specialization (not a class) takes 26% of slots in end game content. Do the math yourself.
In theory, each and every class should have around of 11% of total representantion in end game content to be "balanced" to a degree, yet 1 of subclasses takes 26%, something is quite wrong here.

Mech is also the only elite spec with a viable power, condition, support, and support hybrid build, so that inflates its numbers. Even if each of these builds individually weren't OP and just good, the fact that you an play Mech in any content (minus underwater) without needing to swap elite specs to fill a different role allows people to just stick with what's familiar and comfortable. It also removes the need to gear out a new toon or swap ascended gear between characters.

There's also another factor being ignored. Scrapper and Holo kinda suck. 

Both have low DPS. Holo is not in a good spot right now, and Scrapper is still getting thoroughly outclassed by FB in both utility AND Dps. So even if the Mech player is interested in playing either of the other two proffessions, there's little incentive to. Why willingly drop your own DPS by 6k to play holo, and what are the odds that you won't have one of the omniprescent FB's in your squad to give quickness?

None of that is to say Rifle Mech isn't outperforming the competition, but the stats here do not tell the full story. 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Mech is also the only elite spec with a viable power, condition, support, and support hybrid build, so that inflates its numbers. Even if each of these builds individually weren't OP and just good, the fact that you an play Mech in any content (minus underwater) without needing to swap elite specs to fill a different role allows people to just stick with what's familiar and comfortable. It also removes the need to gear out a new toon or swap ascended gear between characters.

There's also another factor being ignored. Scrapper and Holo kinda suck. 

Both have low DPS. Holo is not in a good spot right now, and Scrapper is still getting thoroughly outclassed by FB in both utility AND Dps. So even if the Mech player is interested in playing either of the other two proffessions, there's little incentive to. Why willingly drop your own DPS by 6k to play holo, and what are the odds that you won't have one of the omniprescent FB's in your squad to give quickness?

None of that is to say Rifle Mech isn't outperforming the competition, but the stats here do not tell the full story. 

 

I mean, that's what stats exactly do tell though? Mechanist is simple spec that is overperforming and powercreeping everything else into useless state. If 1 subclass have 26% total representation, meanwhile it should be around 2.8% then something tells me that is quite busted and everything else is simply garbage on a lot of levels.
The biggest problem here isn't even the brainlet spec itself, it's the lack of direction for classes and it's elite specializations (failed system), like:
- Engineer - what role should it fill?
- Scrapper - it should be support, right? Then what type of support?
- Holosmith - it's either DPS or offensive Support. How to make it work and be unique?
- Mechanist - lmao i'm everyfin!11!11!!1
^ This needs fixing. IF they had a clear plan for the roles, then A-net could start balancing them around different classes to make sure they fill different roles.
"Hey, Holosmith is DPS/SupportDPS so it should deal less damage than Weaver, but also provide some sort of support via boons to compensate and balance them out."
"Hey, Firebrand is Support/Utility so it should deal very little damage, but give a lot of boons and defenses to the party, while Tempest should be better at Healing and CCs, meanwhile Druid should provide Healing and some Boons."
They're simple examples how it should work, yet we don't have that in the slightest here. I'm not gonna even start on how elite specialization system is a pure failure.

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I mean, that's what stats exactly do tell though? Mechanist is simple spec that is overperforming and powercreeping everything else into useless state. If 1 subclass have 26% total representation, meanwhile it should be around 2.8% then something tells me that is quite busted and everything else is simply garbage on a lot of levels.
The biggest problem here isn't even the brainlet spec itself, it's the lack of direction for classes and it's elite specializations (failed system), like:
- Engineer - what role should it fill?
- Scrapper - it should be support, right? Then what type of support?
- Holosmith - it's either DPS or offensive Support. How to make it work and be unique?
- Mechanist - lmao i'm everyfin!11!11!!1
^ This needs fixing. IF they had a clear plan for the roles, then A-net could start balancing them around different classes to make sure they fill different roles.
"Hey, Holosmith is DPS/SupportDPS so it should deal less damage than Weaver, but also provide some sort of support via boons to compensate and balance them out."
"Hey, Firebrand is Support/Utility so it should deal very little damage, but give a lot of boons and defenses to the party, while Tempest should be better at Healing and CCs, meanwhile Druid should provide Healing and some Boons."
They're simple examples how it should work, yet we don't have that in the slightest here. I'm not gonna even start on how elite specialization system is a pure failure.

See, you've committed the logical fallacy of making too much sense. That is not how we do balance round these parts. 

But yes, Roles are all over the place. All Mech really needed to be was a good condi/support build, preferably with options to reduce the need to run 4 kits since Engis were craving some variety in that front. Something similar to mirage or scourge. 

Then Holo can be selfish power dps... with some traces of utility here. It can also keep the 4 kit condi piano build for engis who enjoy that playstyle. Should deal High DPS. 

Scrapper could be the more defensive support build. Durable, good at keeping the team alive, provides the typical core engi boons like prot, regen, vigor, swiftness, and adds superspeed and quickness. Does low DPS. Hammer should ideally also provide some team support and be less selfish. 

They really shot themselves in the foot when they split Mech's traitlines into Power, support, and Condi, because unless all 3 options are viable, you've invested resources into making 3 dead traits.

I would have preferred if Mech was a condi spec with traits that force you to make trade-offs between dps and supportiveness. 

Do you want boons? more condis? Want to empower your barriers? You'll have to choose which to focus on with your traits. Would have stepped on a lot fewer toes that way. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

18 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

See, you've committed the logical fallacy of making too much sense. That is not how we do balance round these parts. 

My apologies, I forgot that facts and logic these days are heresy and I could've been burned at the stake for that.
But hey! I have also some other flaws!

[Axl.8924]

IF you have a few classes that can do content and it so severely outperforms others while giving support that class should be hit with the nerf hammer so hard it gets hit with a orbital strike.

 

I'm with hitting with a oribtal strike to mech and a good buff to the under performers such as  reaper holosmith etc etc.

Selfish DPS classes shouldn't be at the bottom hybrid support builds should be in the middle and supports at the bottom dps.

I'm kind of worried though they will nerf in the worst way and hit every engi and be like: DONE DONE and DONE and then everyone is like:
 

You killed us even more made us all undesireable in all dps and then also nerfed support Why?

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Axl.8924

[zeyeti.8347]

We will see what next patch will bring up , dont see ele coming back with that , it's kind of hitting the right direction but isnt enough (choose : eye of the storm : groupbreakstun , superspeed, 1stab for 5 secs  against  stand your ground : 5 stab for 6secs , self breakstun , resolution , same cooldown , well i've already chosen 😛 ) anet need to compare and look why people play this , this or this , ... they are indeed nerfing barrier on mech (which was ridicilously huge) and ramping the numbers of forgotten weapon (e.g : staff for ele) so good vibes for future i guess , i will still camp mech pew pew as dps cause "big boomer" get a +5% damage , hello 31k afk ! 

And for people trying to argue with obtena , do as i did (ty to the guy who said me that) just ignore , he s living in a world who's limit are his own safe bubble....

Edited August 21, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Tails.9372]

38 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

cause "big boomer" get a +5% damage , hello 31k afk

Even if both the mech and the player character would be affected by the buff going from +10% to +15% on 28k would only get you to 29,27k but since it only effects the player character the actual increase would be more around 0,6k as the mech is not getting the damage boost from Big Boomer while also taking up a bigger percentage of your total damage on "AFK builds".

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

The way things are, classes like Berserker, Reaper, Weaver, Dragonhunter, Daredevil, etc, should deal 60k DPS minimum to at least try to compete lol.

Let's hope the next update make things a bit better.

[pallas.8150]

Honestly, we all know that, until very recently, the design team didn't have much in the way of 'design philosophy' and things were designed on the personal whims of whomever was tasked with balance.

I think that, now that the public is aware of the past behind the scenes elements of balance design, Josh and company are going to be more cognizant of having an overall design philosophy and using that as a basis for approach. It is why we have yet to see anything about the balance philosophy... because they haven't been guided by one for quite some time. So they need to figure out what their goals are before they announce it.