You Did It to Dragon Banner, Now do it to Shield Generators

[Svarty.8019]

One of WvW's massive issues is that powerful sides SNOWBALL advantages. For example; the more objectives you capture, the more supply you have access to.

 

This means that it's FAR easier for a side that's on the rise (a certain popular commander might be online or whatever), becomes more and more powerful as they conquer more objectives - there's no balance check, there's no logistical issues because your empire is too large. There should be. But I digress.

 

What happens is that this now-powerful force is able to create a lot of siege. This was nerfed way back in the day when Anet actually worked on WvW - they put a siege cap of five in the game - five pieces of siege in a particular area, any more and you can't place the blueprint down. BUT golems don't have to worry about that cap because they're mobile - you still can't BUILD six or more in an area iirc, but you CAN drive as many golems as you like up to a door or wall. This circumvents the intended cap of five. Now, that's fine, nobody gives a monkey's because golem rush is fun for the attackers and a challenge for defenders.

 

The problem comes with Shield Generators. They looked like fancy-graphics, kinda dorky, a bit useless back in 2013 or whenever it was. There was a nerf a while back, but it doesn't seem particularly effective. See, the problem with shield generators is that they can block everything. I think we need some context here.

 

Shield Generators used defensively are fine. They can't stop enemies from battering walls down unless they are placed outside the structure. That's fine because the generator is vulnerable there. The problem is when they are used offensively. In order to understand this issue, you need to understand the nature of WvW.

 

The nature of WvW is that when you are weak, you are defending and when you are strong, you are attacking. It sounds obvious, but...

 

A strong attacking force will have a large group defending their siege. The brave, and outnumbered defenders have to try to get Disablers onto the siege whilst navigating a minefield of pulls, AoE bombs, PewPew projectiles and even if they manage to avoid all of that, they face these godawful shield generators. They make a difficult task nigh impossible. They're an I-WIN button for the karmatrain and have been a disappointment since implementation. 

 

I understand that a big group should be able to break into a structure if they're outplaying the defenders - and sheer number of attackers plus the vast array of skills that could be used to counter defenders is surely enough? Shield Generators are too powerful when used offensively.

 

TL;DR please make it so you can't build Shield Generators outside objectives. Ruin them, like you did with Dragon Banner. It's what's best.

 

I know, you don't have to tell me. /sigh. Nothing will be done.

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Svarty.8019
NOTHING WILL BE DONE

[RisenHowl.2419]

use a skill to make the siege disabler unblockable

[Dawdler.8521]

I dont think I've even seen a zerg use shield generators in months. They just dump down 6+ catas and are through before anyone react.

[Svarty.8019]

23 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I dont think I've even seen a zerg use shield generators in months. They just dump down 6+ catas and are through before anyone react.

That's fair, a lot of teams just backcap these days because the game is so stale.

 

BUT when all else fails and the defenders are actually showing some hutzpah and the attackers are taking longer than they'd like, they can always fall back on Old Faithful to Auto-Win the situation.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

WvW is balanced around being played by 3 sides. But this rarely happens these days. 

When all 3 sides actually are Activ, then that will stop a snowball effect pretty quickly.

Because one zerg will face 2 zergs on a huge territory, which makes it impossible to defend for long. 

But again, that only works if all 3 sides are Activ. 

[Svarty.8019]

48 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

WvW is balanced around being played by 3 sides. But this rarely happens these days. 

When all 3 sides actually are Activ, then that will stop a snowball effect pretty quickly.

Because one zerg will face 2 zergs on a huge territory, which makes it impossible to defend for long. 

But again, that only works if all 3 sides are Activ. 

From my knowledge of the game, I'd say three sides isn't enough sides. 

An acknowledged hierarchy quickly develops when large zergs appear. Then the weak team goes into bunker mode, and the other two sides either compete with one another in open field or try to avoid one another and instead compete to see who can bully the weak side most severely.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Svarty.8019

[Riba.3271]

Following siege changes should be done:

• Arrow cart and trebutchet damage to siege increased by 25%

Reasoning: To partly make up for the change where they doubled siege hp and made crits/condis affect condis but siege vs siege damage wasn't affected

• Shield generators pulse unstrippable 30% damage reduction buff affecting walls, players gates and siege in addition to existing stability and blocking normal projectiles but don't block siege fire anymore.

Reasoning: Shield generators make almost all siege useless removing strategies like trebbing keeps to drain supply or bait fights or defending a gate with siege. Essentially as they are they remove plathora of playing styles and promote camping or blobbing.

• Guild golems cost 80 supply instead of 50 and all golems are unaffected by boons again

Reasoning: Supply cost changed to match other guild siege. You cant buff up golems super easily anymore. If you want them to survive longer, utilize shield generators, dwarf elites, reflects, stacking and frost auras.

• Ballista 3 ability fixed to work futher distances and doesn't miss its target anymore

Reasoning: It doesn't fly far enough to hit siege and it takes forever to kill siege with just 1 or 2.

 

In addition this this following defending changes should be made

• Keeps require 25% and castles 50% more dolyaks to upgrade. In return all gates and walls have 30% more hitpoints
• Claim buff reduced from +400 stats to around +120 total stats (note defender siege will deal more damage to siege and stronger walls/gates)
• Packed dolyaks do not count as 2 for upgrade anymore, they should be supply oriented and speedy dolyaks upgrade oriented.
• Watchtower will only activate when tower is contested to increase spots new players and roamers can pass through and fight at without getting jumped by dozen more people. Stealth fountain and airship should also have slightly less duration and longer cd.
• Lord scaling should be adjusted to more logical as it seems to also scale off people not in combat with it and number of defenders while also having unintuitive intervals where it is super tanky at 10 or 26 people but dies super fast with 24 or 60 people.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Svarty.8019]

19 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

• Guild golems cost 80 supply instead of 50 and all golems are unaffected by boons again

Reasoning: Supply cost changed to match other guild siege. You cant buff up golems super easily anymore. If you want them to survive longer, utilize shield generators, dwarf elites, reflects, stacking and frost auras.

•  

Guild golems are in a weird spot. They're vanilla golems that come super-cheap. I think they should be Omegas but cost 100 Supps each. It's a bit of a boring change, but whatever.

 

I think the boons problem is a bug. Anet made it so you lose your boons when you get into become one with the golem, but you can still be buffed. This is what happens when there's no QA or ... well, anybody interested.

[Strider Pj.2193]

I love how a topic on shield gems gets an attempt to push a personal agenda against claim buff  🤦‍♂️
 

Shield Gens aren’t why a structure can’t be defended .  Numbers are.    
 

Shield gens were already nerfed to prevent covering itself.  

[Xenesis.6389]

Shield gens got a nerf so they can't cover themselves, but they're usually park behind and their bubbles are gigantical that it covers them enough in front for protection too. I still think ballista bolts should be able to penetrate them to use as a proper counter. 🤷‍♂️

 

7 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I dont think I've even seen a zerg use shield generators in months. They just dump down 6+ catas and are through before anyone react.

Still gets used often in NA.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[Cuks.8241]

Disagree. Shield gens are often the only way to get some siege up. You can have more numbers, better players and better organised and you will still not be able to get up a single siege if enough players are just mindlessly spamming on you. And you cant even hit them back. If you deserve to defend the structure you should be able to do it in a fight (you have the defending buff anyway). Walls are there to delay to get a defending group together and prevent small groups to just sneak big objectives.

If you want to prevent supply snowballing there are better ways to do it. 

[Riba.3271]

3 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

I love how a topic on shield gems gets an attempt to push a personal agenda against claim buff  🤦‍♂️

Claim buff was only 1/10th of my comment, funny that you are tunnelvisioning to that: I have plenty of other changes I am pushing through in my various comments on these forums. Unfortunately the game has lot of things that have been never adjusted since addition (almost all at release of HoT). It is better for me to put as many necessary in case lost dev reads it. Also these things are connected, you cant just nerf 1 aspect of WvW as it might make things more unbalanced. For example you can't remove 100% guaranteed way to get inside (shield gens with enough supply) in meta where defenders win 100% of the fights with equal numbers as all strong commanders only ever attempt keep once in a row as by feeding enemy they just lose numbers and have bad time.

Anyways why are you against fixing the game?  Do you understand that your actions by wasting a comment to undermine a commenter actually providing actual solutions, even if most crucial ones repeat themselves, will just keep the game at bad state? I am sorry that it is waste of time to read 100 comments repeating about all the various competitive issues, but none have reached the devs yet. Please, hold back these hate comments that reduce the chance of fixing WvW.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Strider Pj.2193]

38 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Claim buff was only 1/10th of my comment, funny that you are tunnelvisioning to that: I have plenty of other changes I am pushing through in my various comments on these forums. Unfortunately the game has lot of things that have been never adjusted since addition (almost all at release of HoT). It is better for me to put as many necessary in case lost dev reads it. Also these things are connected, you cant just nerf 1 aspect of WvW as it might make things more unbalanced. For example you can't remove 100% guaranteed way to get inside (shield gens with enough supply) in meta where defenders win 100% of the fights with equal numbers as all strong commanders only ever attempt keep once in a row as by feeding enemy they just lose numbers and have bad time.

Anyways why are you against fixing the game?  Do you understand that your actions by wasting a comment to undermine a commenter actually providing actual solutions, even if most crucial ones repeat themselves, will just keep the game at bad state? I am sorry that it is waste of time to read 100 comments repeating about all the various competitive issues, but none have reached the devs yet. Please, hold back these hate comments that reduce the chance of fixing WvW.

Topic is about shield gens.  I might suggest staying in topic.  🙂

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Disagree. Shield gens are often the only way to get some siege up. You can have more numbers, better players and better organised and you will still not be able to get up a single siege if enough players are just mindlessly spamming on you. And you cant even hit them back. If you deserve to defend the structure you should be able to do it in a fight (you have the defending buff anyway). Walls are there to delay to get a defending group together and prevent small groups to just sneak big objectives.

If you want to prevent supply snowballing there are better ways to do it. 

Not like you have the option to desiege or I dunno use one of the multiple places to enter from that in turn have multiple places you could setup siege, plus boon balls having multiple shields of their own up practically all the time or did your scrappers fall asleep at the wheel? But oh right, who wants to spend supply on a ballista, or carry a staff ele these days anyways.

[Strider Pj.2193]

6 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

Guild golems are in a weird spot. They're vanilla golems that come super-cheap. I think they should be Omegas but cost 100 Supps each. It's a bit of a boring change, but whatever.

 

I think the boons problem is a bug. Anet made it so you lose your boons when you get into become one with the golem, but you can still be buffed. This is what happens when there's no QA or ... well, anybody interested.

Iirc golems couldn’t be buffed for a while.  There was an intentional change within the last two years to allow it to happen.  (The timeline is likely wrong, not sure exactly when it was allowed)

[Svarty.8019]

1 hour ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Iirc golems couldn’t be buffed for a while.  There was an intentional change within the last two years to allow it to happen.  (The timeline is likely wrong, not sure exactly when it was allowed)

When I see it in some patch notes, I'll believe it.

[Strider Pj.2193]

43 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

When I see it in some patch notes, I'll believe it.

Yeah…. Something something crappy search engine…

[Luci.7018]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:42 AM, Svarty.8019 said:

From my knowledge of the game, I'd say three sides isn't enough sides. 

An acknowledged hierarchy quickly develops when large zergs appear. Then the weak team goes into bunker mode, and the other two sides either compete with one another in open field or try to avoid one another and instead compete to see who can bully the weak side most severely.

Maybe it's time for a 4th faction to rise ?

It will be the PvE population , that hates fights (especially 1v1 , player vs player) so we give them the char-moto (high mobility)

with the goal to tear down walls (they cannot capture anything) and let the other 2 lesser servers to ninja-capturing them .

That way it will force the winner-1st server to play  defensively for a bit .

 

 

The events of PvE players using the char-moto (or a Humogous giants that deals Shockwaves +Backbreaks) , will be enabled every 30 min and the goal is : 

a) "at the end of the 4:30 timer , the closer the score between servers is , you get more tickets(for the legendary) , but not Memories of the Battles" , while you still play PvE .

b) your "form" get self damaged * 10times / every 1 min , based on the Faction WvW Score . So you should avoid helping the 1st server

Edited August 11, 2022 by Luci.7018