Does ANet know more than us?

[lezbefriends.7516]

I've seen at least one poster repeatedly appeal to authority, claiming that ANet has access to data that we don't and therefore knows better than us how to improve the game's longevity.

 

Firstly, does ANet really know what they're doing? Their newest skins are covered up, uncomfortable-looking outfits released during the middle of summer. The Festival of Four Winds should be a summer-themed festival (if it isn't already - haven't done it) and they should release the appropriate season's skins. By releasing seasonal skins, it ensures people will buy new skins to replace the previous season's. This will increase money for ANet, so why aren't they doing this basic of all tactics, seen even on the simplest of mobile games?

 

Secondly, does ANet even have access to data we don't? We all want to support the game with our gem purchases, but how much does ANet's developers and designers gain from those profits? It's a symptom of capitalism for a company's profits to improve by 300%, only for 3% of it to go to most of its employees, who are none the wiser.

 

What do you think?

Edited August 10, 2022 by lezbefriends.7516

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

They have access to some data.  They have more hard statistics about performance, economy, and playtime than we do.  However, you could consider that a cold comfort, for knowledge is not wisdom.  

[Sunchaser.9854]

The answer is. I should hope so.

 

A company can gather lots of internal metrics about stuff like average playtime, average income per month, players this week vs last week, etc. as well as revenue numbers during certain sales weeks, etc. 

 

But then again, Anet's Marketing team is wonky, and while a good game and i've met one of the Anet developers ingame who seemed pretty nice. (a item modeler, not a balance dev), they seemed pretty nice. But you have to consider that the same team that nerfed warrior as the very makers of their game, gave the crit trait to the wrong warrior traitline. And also a few weeks ago had that reddit hot storm where they invited people to partake in the class "diversity" (7-9 mechs vs a couple classes, unique buffs, and a bannerslave warrior), that the main balance dev admitted that they didn't really know how most of the other classes worked and designed or mained mained mostly firebrand and mechanist engineer. Good for them. 

 

Now, they should have access to data, and i do think GW2 is a pretty legitimately good game on the mmorpg market next to declining wow and FF14. But some of it just might be not screwing up as much as WoW or being a housing focused... 'mmorpg' like... ff14... So uh.. It's kinda like being the best person in a swimming contest where one person is actively choosing to drown themselves(WoW), the other is setting up a cookie baking class for otters(ff14), and one is mildly dog paddling towards the end while occasionally doing cool tricks or buffing mechanist or calling a dead youtuber like Totalbisquit a 'blessing to be gone', etc.

 

That people found in poor faith etc. But i mean. When you compare it to blizzard being involved in certain _____  harassment lawsuits, or just people spending 15$ a month to sit in a house idling in a house in ff14. Or killing the same dragon and doing the same solo content in 07 osrs Runescape for 15 years straight with 1 update a year being a fishing boss and a #nochanges xp rate movement..

Dog paddling a mmorpg isn't bad at all, because by the standards of the market, that's already like, actually pretty good and it has some really fun gameplay. {Even if it decides it wants to make afk gameplay the most rewarding because the dev plays it. Shrug. }

[Nokturnal Lunacy.3186]

18 minutes ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

Firstly, does ANet really know what they're doing?

You must be new, any veteran player to the game already knows the answer to this question.

[Sunchaser.9854]

Anet's social media presence/Marketing in an nutshell

2012: Releases in the MMORPG frenzy. (Buy once, own forever. DDO online, Rift, Star wars the old republic's branching story, Archeage the mmorpg that lets you build, Minecraft the open world moddable sandbox, A thousand dime a dozen mmorpgs that launch, and fail, etc. ) 

 

2013: Advertises itself as a horror ad.

 

Community: "what.. the actual... Crap.. Is your marketing team DOING!?!? isn't it pr 101 to not like uh. Say you're glad for the death of someone who died of kitten or something??"

Blizzard: Hold my beer:

Blizzard Proceeded to get into S____ harassment lawsuits, disables the use of mounts in every expansion. Scraps a raid tier and half of WoD's planned content to release a "selfie camera content patch" instead of a raid tier. leaves no content released for 1-2 years. Turns the most hyped up game character Arthas into a fart, Gets sued by the state of california, releases worse and worse content, loses 10M to 1M subs after removing flight without pathfinder. Increases FF14 population 10x and Gw2's 2x. 

So yeah i mean.. It's probably not the best team but hey i mean.. It's still the best on the market and even if it has minor faults it's still a good game. I mean. Even if it's dog paddling, when your competition is trying to drown itself (WoW), or replace mmorpg content with 15$ a month to sit in a house.. playing pattycake uh.. (???)..

It's your choice of if you want to pay 15$ a month to afk in a house, or pay once, own forever, have aurene fanfic stories you need to spend $ to unlock y'know? 

[Freya.9075]

Yes, they know what they’re doing. And they’re doing good. As you can see by playing the game and how active it is. 
 

sure they got things they need to get better at, but what mmo doesn’t. At least anet doesn’t ruin your wallet while letting you enjoy their game. They have a smaller team with lesser resources and still are among the top mmos. They are doing something right. 

[Labjax.2465]

They undoubtedly have access to metrics we don't that in some part inform their decisions. As to whether they read that data accurately is a whole other question. Statistics are infamous for being misleading and metrics aren't gonna be an exception.

For example, say you have a game like this that doesn't have playable musical instruments and you want to try adding them and see if they are received well. You add a Xylophone, a Triangle, and a Bell. You find that almost no one uses the instruments. Or you pick popular instruments, but the design of them is confusing to most people who engage with them, so almost no one uses them. You conclude that people playing your game don't want to use instruments, so you don't add more. In both cases, you missed the real reason (unpopular instruments in the 1st case and confusing design in the 2nd case). (This example is not meant to represent GW2 in its specifics, just using it to illustrate how "metrics" can be misread.)

Then there's their design skill, where they should know more than the average player about how a game is put together and what makes it work. The only real exception being if the player themself is a practiced designer. However, this can get iffy with MMOs because it can take hundreds or thousands of hours to get to a level of knowledge of the game's systems that some players possess. So though a skilled designer can understand things even those players won't see, they are sometimes gonna be missing detail nuance from pure experience with the system.

In short: there are undoubtedly matters they know more than us on, but to what extent is anyone's guess. One thing we can be certain of though, is there's no blanket guarantee they no better for any given situation. So if someone is using that to be dismissive of something you propose, you can know it means little. And sometimes there's gonna be situations where one designer knows better, but another doesn't, and priorities are skewed based on who is in charge. So some anet people (if they read) are gonna read feedback and agree, but that doesn't necessarily mean change is gonna come.

[Vayne.8563]

Anet doesn't know what they're doing, because Anet isn't a person. Anet is a company. There are many people at any company and some of them are probably more knowledgable than others. There are undoubtedly some people who aren't as good at reading the community as others, and because we pay more attention to blunders than successes, those people are going to stand out more.

 

By the same token, the community is not one person but a bunch of people. I'm pretty sure there's a portion of the community that knows very little about the game or game development. It's not like this community speaks with one voice anyway. Open world players often aren't interested in what raiders or PvPers think, for example and vice versa.  I used to think I knew more than I did about the game and learned some things over the course of time that changed my mind on that. Now I feel like I know less than I did.

It doesn't mean every decision Anet makes will affect everyone in a positive way, because you know, plenty of people are playing the game who want different things. At the end of the day, the whole question is flawed, and probably isn't worth discussing.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Do ANet staff have more data than we do?  Yes.

Do some ANet staff know more about the code they've used in GW2 than we do.  Yes.

Do some ANet staff have a better idea than we do what will sell and what won't?  They should.

Do ANet staff know everything and never make mistakes?  No.

 

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

They undoubtedly have access to metrics we don't that in some part inform their decisions. As to whether they read that data accurately is a whole other question. Statistics are infamous for being misleading and metrics aren't gonna be an exception.

This.

Anet definitely has access to a much wider amount of data than we do. That does not automatically turn into knowledge, though. Sometimes they may misinterpret that data (there have bees some truly ridiculous examples of it in the past). Sometimes they may lack in-game experience to understand what the data actually means. And sometimes they may not even look at it at all.

So, they definitely have the potential to know more than the players. The degree to which they utilize that potential however changes on case by case basis. And as for whether players can know better... well, it also depends on specific cases - and on specific players. Some players in some cases do actually know better. There are also players that never do.

[Southerncarl.2740]

5 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

I've seen at least one poster repeatedly appeal to authority, claiming that ANet has access to data that we don't and therefore knows better than us how to improve the game's longevity.

 

Firstly, does ANet really know what they're doing? Their newest skins are covered up, uncomfortable-looking outfits released during the middle of summer. The Festival of Four Winds should be a summer-themed festival (if it isn't already - haven't done it) and they should release the appropriate season's skins. By releasing seasonal skins, it ensures people will buy new skins to replace the previous season's. This will increase money for ANet, so why aren't they doing this basic of all tactics, seen even on the simplest of mobile games?

 

Secondly, does ANet even have access to data we don't? We all want to support the game with our gem purchases, but how much does ANet's developers and designers gain from those profits? It's a symptom of capitalism for a company's profits to improve by 300%, only for 3% of it to go to most of its employees, who are none the wiser.

 

What do you think?

Not all of us want to support the game with gem purchases....I'd rather play the game and unlock the content thanks. The store is far too big and the game is becoming overly monetized. It should of stopped with cosmetics but now the rot has predictably spread to a lot of other systems within the game. It's not a mobile game I bought the main game and all the expansions. It wasn't free.

[Danikat.8537]

Everyone else has already covered the other points, but I wanted to pick up on this one:
 

6 hours ago, lezbefriends.7516 said:

Their newest skins are covered up, uncomfortable-looking outfits released during the middle of summer. The Festival of Four Winds should be a summer-themed festival (if it isn't already - haven't done it) and they should release the appropriate season's skins. By releasing seasonal skins, it ensures people will buy new skins to replace the previous season's. This will increase money for ANet, so why aren't they doing this basic of all tactics, seen even on the simplest of mobile games?

Does anyone actually do that in an MMORPG?

I can understand it in battle royale type games where everything is wiped and everyone starts over when a new season begins. (I've also heard some of the more extreme pay-to-win games put time limits on cash shop items and they're removed from your account unless you buy them again.)

But in a game like GW2 where everything keeps going, the same characters doing interconnected storylines and progression for years at a time it seems very weird to me to buy something with the intention of only using it for a few months at most, and then buying something new to replace it.

Especially since all the past maps are still available and still played. If I'm in Bjora Marches or the snowy part of Desert Highlands or wherever you can guarantee I'll be putting my characters into the arctic explorers costume, whether there's currently a summer themed event happening in another part of the game or not.

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Everyone else has already covered the other points, but I wanted to pick up on this one:
 

Does anyone actually do that in an MMORPG?

I can understand it in battle royale type games where everything is wiped and everyone starts over when a new season begins. (I've also heard some of the more extreme pay-to-win games put time limits on cash shop items and they're removed from your account unless you buy them again.)

But in a game like GW2 where everything keeps going, the same characters doing interconnected storylines and progression for years at a time it seems very weird to me to buy something with the intention of only using it for a few months at most, and then buying something new to replace it.

Especially since all the past maps are still available and still played. If I'm in Bjora Marches or the snowy part of Desert Highlands or wherever you can guarantee I'll be putting my characters into the arctic explorers costume, whether there's currently a summer themed event happening in another part of the game or not.

That’s really cool that you do that.

At first I thought I’m never in one zone that long, but then I thought about the fact that one of my characters has been mostly in Draconis Mons for a while doing the Druid Stone collection, and the idea of putting her in khakis and a pith helmet made me smile.

I don’t buy outfits, and though I have a good chunk of transmutation stones I don’t think I’d use them just for a week or two’s change.

But if I did use outfits, I could see adapting them to their location being fun.

[Vyr.9387]

As people are saying, ANet certainly (should) have much more raw data than we.
However, thanks to their miserable levels of communication

Spoiler

(so miserable, in fact, that they're being applauded for the same "progressive move" of explaining the mindset behind balance changes twice - here's a random Patch Notes post from 2019 - but that might also be more of the players' fault, because, if somebody's selling rotten meat, and you buy and eat it despite the looks and smell, then cry on the toilet for the next week, is the blame really just the merchant's?)

the players who happen to care on a level deeper than the vast majority of GW2's gameplay systems are left with 4% experience, 2% of what some ANet employee said on some streamer's broadcast at 4 in the morning, and 194% assumptions (been running a lot of metas lately; 200% is the new black).

Regardless, the appeal to authority is a logical fallacy to begin with, and thus, although it can't hurt to get reminded that a common player doesn't even know how little (s)he knows - e. g., how much are NCSoft actively tying ANet's hands - such a claim has no bearing on any criticism and/or suggestion whatsoever.

The question I've been wondering about in this regard, then, is why - since understanding the devs leads to better proposed solutions, even if ANet themselves aren't omniscient AS THEY OBVIOUSLY SHOULD BE, DUH, and certainly less nonsense like death threats over a "badly missed mark" of a supposedly game-changing patch - ANet so frequently choose to be inconsistent with their decision-making to the point of absurdity, as documented in-game with their Living hiStory concept (where every implemented system's decaying corpse is kept on display for everybody to experience exactly how it was abandoned, like in a renaissance faire, except here you're able to "fight" Classical Antiquity with AK-47s, Aim-Assisted Rockets, and Orbital Strikes).

And, from what I've gathered over the years, the answer is the lack of confidence in themselves and their unique work of art.
They don't talk about their failures, 'cuz what would people think of them; don't make reasonable changes, 'cuz what of all the people that would feel like they've lost or are entitled to something; don't challenge or transcend the status quo as art, of all things, should be blamelessly capable of doing, 'cuz some people might not enjoy it...

Spoiler

Two things have to be said here, though: one - it's completely their prerogative to sculpt their clay in any way they see fit, and virtually nothing can be brought up against such a decision; and two - they're getting much better in almost every aspect lately, from what I've seen (even though, staying in the game balance area, razing the Warrior stronghold to the ground and then being "bolder with changes" by raising a half-broken fence made of holesome planks might look like a, let's say, sad compensation - made more depressing yet by how overloaded the mechanist is and the continued existence of firebrands, if there has been any force, internal or external, preventing them from going for said changes, and they managed to overcome it, it is a powerful victory).
I'm not criticizing the direction, I'm criticizing that they can't stand tall behind it.

One could argue that it's all because of money, since capitalism.
But, more often than not, it looks like ANet purposefully try to prevent people from giving them money.
Take, for the simplest example, lezbefriends' suggestion of summer-themed clothes during a "summer" festival (the Zephyrites are much more than simple beach-goers, but that's mostly lore junkie stuff).
The warmer the climate, the more reasonable strolling around (almost) naked becomes, and a large amount of people would absolutely spend a lot of money on overly revealing outfits for their characters.
It most likely would also take very little effort to design a swimwear set, even if we were going for contemporary styles and/or materials.
And you bet such things would vanish as quickly as warm pastry. Figuratively.
No such items to be seen, however.
(For the record, though, I love the Zephyrite's style. Functional, rough, and still mindful of beauty. Wondrous stuff.) 

But then, on the opposite end, we have a feature - build "templates" - which has been (actually still is, right?) in the OG Guild Wars, heavily requested for the better part of a decade for this one, unofficially in the game through Delta's work, but then butchered into little pieces, and each one of which is being sold now for a ridiculous amount of money, with less functionality, and while shutting down ArcTemplates completely.
They knew what they've done couldn't hold a candle to Arc, so they forced players out of the superior solution and into their pathetic excuse for what people have been asking for. 
A true EA.net move, by the same company, in the same game.

Which, however, showcases another thing to consider while looking for the actual reason behind why ANet seem to have no idea which side is left and which side is time:
We keep talking about "ANet this", "ANet that", completely disregarding, as Vayne said, that this mythical ANet is not a single being, and, moreover, has changed its components numerous times over its career. Sometimes, even letting go of a single person out of a large studio who knew how stuff worked is enough to put the 5% Crit into Arms.

Spoiler

I'm sorry, I can't quit thinking that they just had some Bring-Your-Family-Along day at one point, and one of the devs sat their tiny-human down on their keyboard while showing them around the work spot.

 
There's a plethora of variables in play, and almost nothing is as clean-cut as it'd be nice to have, even if the dataz get out.
But putting them all into one bag called "ANet" does tremendous disservice to the intricate nuance of both the conversation and the company itself.



Shikashi...
...the brutally honest perspective is "no musings about whys matter, because it's not the player's job to solve the devs' problems".
We are customers, they provide a service. Whatever they say is irrelevant, only what they do should be looked at.
If said service sucks, they don't deserve to be paid.
And you, the player, are doing the paying, so put your money where your mouth is, and if the devs care, they will DO the asking, they will DO surveys, and the will DO appropriate changes.
Otherwise it's just words, and words without actions are nothing.

And from this point of view - judging by ANet's actions and assuming they are reading their metrics, the people who care are the most meaningless portion of the playerbase to them, because most of the changes go towards width, not depth; most of them want more people, not (helping make) better people.

But, as I've mentioned above, this particular trend seems to be shifting in the opposite direction, seeing what Cantha brought along.

Except balance.
But that needs some actual balls - no matter if cleverly hidden inside or daringly dangling despite danger - to realize having a class that can do (almost) everything with no trade-offs in a world with both its core mechanics and even lore built around different specialists coming together to overcome a challenge is far more limiting than liberating.

In spirit of which:
TL;DR - learn to read.

[Danikat.8537]

29 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

That’s really cool that you do that.

At first I thought I’m never in one zone that long, but then I thought about the fact that one of my characters has been mostly in Draconis Mons for a while doing the Druid Stone collection, and the idea of putting her in khakis and a pith helmet made me smile.

I don’t buy outfits, and though I have a good chunk of transmutation stones I don’t think I’d use them just for a week or two’s change.

But if I did use outfits, I could see adapting them to their location being fun.

It sounds silly but watching a character run around in the snow in short sleeves and thin clothes makes me feel cold. 😄

I don't buy many outfits, but when I do it's pretty much for this purpose: something for times when armour would be inappropriate, but it's not worth transmuting everything. As well as the arctic outfit I have a couple of formal clothing ones and the starter town clothes and chefs outfits for casual clothing. Oh and the Herald of Aurene outfit for important story bits.