Elder Dragon's before the Void [SPOILER discussion]

[EdwinLi.1284]

SPOILER below! You are warned.
 

 

It is interesting to learn about what the Elder Dragons were like before their corruption and how everything began. Beyond the issue of the story being rushed, this part is probably the most interesting and is a shame they did not take time to full cover this in the Main Story of EoD.

 

Mordremoth was always someone who loved to cultivate plants and he spent alot of time gorwing them to a point a lot of regions became full of life due to it.

 

Primordius was the intervert of the siblings who never goes outside. 

 

Kralkatorrik was that child parents can't help but worry about constantly because they always return injured but he always provided food for his family and looked after them.

 

Zhaitan was the first to be corrupted as his interests in death grew to the point he became obsessed with it and Jormag was the one who spotted the sudden changes thus leading to her become more interested in control of her situation.

 

It is rather sad result since for a moment they had their time of happiness but the Void slowly creeped into their minds and developed their obsessions. Eventually it would have twisted their minds to obsessing over destroying all life.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

41 minutes ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Kralkatorrik was that child parents can't help but worry about constantly because they always return injured but he always provided food for his family and looked after them.

That wasn't how I interpret it, the "provided food for his family". The Elder Dragons don't eat animals, after all - they eat magic. So killing mortals had nothing to do with providing food for the family, just bringing in fresh kills.

The legendary weapon text for the Kralkatorrik variants furthers this with entries like "Small game wasn't enough. He craved more. He craved the fight" and "I outgrew them so quickly, she barely had time to mourn my departure...", or the later "I saw it, in a dream. The great peace... It disgusted me."

Kralkatorrik, before Torment, seemed very much a battle junkie even from a young age.

This matches dev comments that "Kralkatorrik wasn't good before Torment" during the War Eternal Guild Chat stream.

41 minutes ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Zhaitan was the first to be corrupted as his interests in death grew to the point he became obsessed with it and Jormag was the one who spotted the sudden changes thus leading to her become more interested in control of her situation.

I took the line of Zhaitan being the opposite. That it was Zhaitan's fascination with death that lead to them being tied to Death Magic - similar with Mordremoth "growing his roots" leading to connection to Plant Magic.

And the line with Jormag reads instead as being a show of always being interesting in deceiving even their own family before Torment could begin to influence them, that they were one of the leading causes of the inter-Elder Dragon strife that culminated with Jormag and Primordus fighting to the death.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

It doesn't do a good job of explaining the EDs origins or their corruption really at all, why Jormag and Primordus are linked or why Primordus seems to lack sapience (thanks IBS) or how a fascination with death turned Zhaitan into a what looks like a bunch of undead dragons cobbled together into one.  Like a fair bit of EoD's story I'm left unsatisfied and a little depressed.

[EdwinLi.1284]

4 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

It doesn't do a good job of explaining the EDs origins or their corruption really at all, why Jormag and Primordus are linked or why Primordus seems to lack sapience (thanks IBS) or how a fascination with death turned Zhaitan into a what looks like a bunch of undead dragons cobbled together into one.  Like a fair bit of EoD's story I'm left unsatisfied and a little depressed.

Which is why I mentioned the story is very much rushed due to how there is a lot of things that feels missing and suddenly added when going through the main storyline.

 

These dialogues could have been something used for one or two more maps for EoD to cover more about the Elder Dragons before the Cycle as a Main story part set before Soo-Won started to lose control. However, they ended up as Final Meta extra content. 

 

 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, EdwinLi.1284 said:

Which is why I mentioned the story is very much rushed due to how there is a lot of things that feels missing and suddenly added when going through the main storyline.

 

These dialogues could have been something used for one or two more maps for EoD to cover more about the Elder Dragons before the Cycle as a Main story part set before Soo-Won started to lose control. However, they ended up as Final Meta extra content.

I don't know if rushed sufficiently explains why we have this poor story, I'm leaning more towards the the general idea behind the plot may have been too flawed.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

16 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

It doesn't do a good job of explaining the EDs origins

Soo-Won made them to help balance the world's magic, and prevent the Dragonvoid from destroying everything. As we already saw with Glint, and Aurene, dragons can just make eggs, without needing a mate.

16 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

or their corruption really at all

Being exposed to large amounts of magic, along with corrupting forces of the Dragonvoid, drove them insane over countless ages.

16 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

or why Primordus seems to lack sapience (thanks IBS)

Same reason Kralkatorrik seemed to until the very end. Ages of magic buildup, and Dragonvoid corruption, had rendered Primordus little more then feral.

16 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

or how a fascination with death turned Zhaitan into a what looks like a bunch of undead dragons cobbled together into one. 

We saw both Kralkatorrik and Primordus change appearance after absorbing more/different kinds of magic. And Mordremoth was stated to have likely had a more traditionally draconic appearance in ages past, but essentially "took root" and became the giant planet monster we see it as.

Elder Dragons are beings of magic, and have shown to be largely just giant balls of the element they control that they attach their mind too. They have some ability to change their shape, and are affected by what kind of magic they take in as well.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I really hope that we get to see more of the past cycle's events in later LW seasons. Like when the Mursaat clashed with them and failed because of the other races abandoning them to the fight alone.

I'd like to see the ED spirits talk to Aurene from the Mists. We know that Glint is there, so it makes sense that the EDs would all be there. Since Aurene has God magic she can traverse the Mists and commune with them. It would be cool for her to be able to do that with their non corrupt personas. 

I still think the next part of the story will have the human gods come back though.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

17 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

It doesn't do a good job of explaining the EDs origins or their corruption really at all, why Jormag and Primordus are linked or why Primordus seems to lack sapience (thanks IBS) or how a fascination with death turned Zhaitan into a what looks like a bunch of undead dragons cobbled together into one.  Like a fair bit of EoD's story I'm left unsatisfied and a little depressed.

SPOILERS FOR LIVING WORLD SEASON 3, ICEBROOD SAGA AND END OF DRAGONS

Spoiler

It was explained that Jormag and Primordus are twinned, they were born at the same time. Twins are genetic clones and the differences between them were from two things: 1) Soo-Won granting them control of opposing domains, and 2) The corruption they suffered over time.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

SPOILERS FOR LIVING WORLD SEASON 3, ICEBROOD SAGA AND END OF DRAGONS

  Hide contents

It was explained that Jormag and Primordus are twinned, they were born at the same time. Twins are genetic clones and the differences between them were from two things: 1) Soo-Won granting them control of opposing domains, and 2) The corruption they suffered over time.

 

Them being "twins" doesn't really explain why their fates were linked or they were the only ones who had weaknesses that weren't their own powers being exploited.

Zhaitan's biggest strength? The horde of minions and the ability to put pieces of itself in minions to make the special. Zhaitan's unique weakness? Over-reliance on specialized minions.

Mordremoth's biggest strength? Its domain of mind allowing micromanagement and body-snatching. Mordremoth's biggest weakness? Being attacked directly by the mind.

Kralkatorrik's biggest strength? The sturdiness and hardness of its crystals. Kralkatorrik's biggest weakness? the resonance frequency of his crystals.

Jormag's biggest strength? Cold. Jormag's biggest weakness? Hot.

Primordus' biggest strength? Hot. Primordus' biggest weakness? Cold.

 

Jormag and Primordus are the only ones who have "opposing domains" and that's never explained, despite Season 3 hinting that Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's domains are also opposing (though this never got confirmed) which in turn hinted that the whole "their weaknesses are each other!" was a red herring to initiate the dual dragon subplot that was, itself, a red herring for Balthazar plot starting up.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

9 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Them being "twins" doesn't really explain why their fates were linked or they were the only ones who had weaknesses that weren't their own powers being exploited.

Zhaitan's biggest strength? The horde of minions and the ability to put pieces of itself in minions to make the special. Zhaitan's unique weakness? Over-reliance on specialized minions.

Mordremoth's biggest strength? Its domain of mind allowing micromanagement and body-snatching. Mordremoth's biggest weakness? Being attacked directly by the mind.

Kralkatorrik's biggest strength? The sturdiness and hardness of its crystals. Kralkatorrik's biggest weakness? the resonance frequency of his crystals.

Jormag's biggest strength? Cold. Jormag's biggest weakness? Hot.

Primordus' biggest strength? Hot. Primordus' biggest weakness? Cold.

 

Jormag and Primordus are the only ones who have "opposing domains" and that's never explained, despite Season 3 hinting that Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's domains are also opposing (though this never got confirmed) which in turn hinted that the whole "their weaknesses are each other!" was a red herring to initiate the dual dragon subplot that was, itself, a red herring for Balthazar plot starting up.

SPOILERS FOR ALL SEASONS AND EXPANSIONS
 

Spoiler

 

This is left ambiguous in the game.

 

In theory Modremoth (life) and Zhaitan (death) oppose each other, and its only because of the Sylvari (the Pale Reavers) and Caladbolg that we manage to defeat Zhaitan, even after dispatching all of its highly specialised minions, so it could be argued that Modremoth is the reason we won against Zhaitan even if indirectly.

 

In theory, Soo-Won and Kralkatorrik also oppose each other, a given enough time water can destroy even crystal, which forms some of the hardest materials  in the universe, including all metals (which are crystalline in nature). Its the "unmoveable object vs. unstoppable force" scenario played out over aeons.

 

There's nothing to suggest each dragon didn't have two weaknesses, and that Primordus and Jormag didn't have another weakness besides each other. We just discovered very early on with Omadd's machine that it was the most efficient way to deal with them. Balthazar was originally going to defeat all the dragons without such methods, and he also intended to finish Kralkatorrik even after his Warbeast was destroyed,  and his advantage from having Aurene being lost, so obviously its not the only ways to get rid of them.

 

Before discovering Taimi's machine, he seemed to be doing nothing but gaining raw power and building armies, so its possible their secondary domains also have weaknesses. In Zhaitan's case, his shadow domain where he kept himself concealed and allowed his minions to do all the work for him, even talking for him until the end, doesn't mean he wasn't vulnerable to life-binding magic as well, or that it didn't contribute.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

This is left ambiguous in the game.

Exactly my, and Greyhawk's, point.

The Elder Dragon plot is over. There shouldn't have been any ambiguity left in major plot points.

11 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

There's nothing to suggest each dragon didn't have two weaknesses,

Several times in S3 and IBS, it is said time and time again by Taimi and others that the dragons are the only chances they have to kill the other, pretty firmly establishing that they only had the one weakness. Even Jormag acted like the only way to kill Primordus was through Jormag. If there was a second means of killing Primordus, Jormag who was afraid of Primordus would have certainly suggested it to keep themselves alive.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I really hope that we get to see more of the past cycle's events in later LW seasons. Like when the Mursaat clashed with them and failed because of the other races abandoning them to the fight alone.

Wut.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

20 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Wut.

It was stated on the Mursaat lore tables back in the Ember Bay map that the elder races couldn't decide what to do about the dragons. The Jotun and Dwarves hid, the Seers stored magic, while the Forgotten and Mursaat built armies of constructs to fight the dragons. The Mursaat believed that, had they fought together, they could've won.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mursaat_Lore_Tablet

1. Over ten thousand years ago, elder races put aside their differences and forged an alliance against the awakening Elder Dragons. If we'd worked together as planned, we wouldn't have had to hide.
2. The elder races could not agree on what to do. The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses. The Seers stored magic for use after the dragons returned to sleep.
3. We mursaat and the Forgotten forged armies of powerful constructs to destroy the dragons. The Seers, dwarves, and jotun did not want to fight. This drove a rift between us and them.
4. We assaulted Zhaitan with our army of jade constructs and enchanted armors. We failed, and many mursaat and Forgotten died. We will never forgive the other elder races for deserting us.
5. After our failed assault on Zhaitan, our Forgotten allies withdrew to what is now the Crystal Desert. We knew that, upon the other races' annihilations, the world would be ours. 
6. We slid sideways into another layer of awareness to avoid having our magic stolen from us.
7. Centuries passed. The Elder Dragons consumed all of Tyria's magic. Once prosperous cities lay in ruin. Civilization fell into an age of darkness and brutality in the absence of magic.
8. As the dragons returned to their cyclic slumber, the elder races reemerged. The once-powerful jotun refused to rely on magic ever again. They have since remained ignorant, brutish creatures.
9. The Seers set about sharing their stored magic with the world, though society had devolved into divided, violent tribes. Wars broke out over control of the magic pool.
10. The Forgotten allied with Glint and ignored the now to focus on the future. We mursaat... we returned and built a base among the Fire Islands, as strong as ever. The world will one day be ours.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

It was stated on the Mursaat lore tables back in the Ember Bay map that the elder races couldn't decide what to do about the dragons. The Jotun and Dwarves hid, the Seers stored magic, while the Forgotten and Mursaat built armies of constructs to fight the dragons. The Mustaar believed that, had they fought together, they could've won.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mursaat_Lore_Tablet

1. Over ten thousand years ago, elder races put aside their differences and forged an alliance against the awakening Elder Dragons. If we'd worked together as planned, we wouldn't have had to hide.
2. The elder races could not agree on what to do. The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses. The Seers stored magic for use after the dragons returned to sleep.
3. We mursaat and the Forgotten forged armies of powerful constructs to destroy the dragons. The Seers, dwarves, and jotun did not want to fight. This drove a rift between us and them.
4. We assaulted Zhaitan with our army of jade constructs and enchanted armors. We failed, and many mursaat and Forgotten died. We will never forgive the other elder races for deserting us.
5. After our failed assault on Zhaitan, our Forgotten allies withdrew to what is now the Crystal Desert. We knew that, upon the other races' annihilations, the world would be ours. 
6. We slid sideways into another layer of awareness to avoid having our magic stolen from us.
7. Centuries passed. The Elder Dragons consumed all of Tyria's magic. Once prosperous cities lay in ruin. Civilization fell into an age of darkness and brutality in the absence of magic.
8. As the dragons returned to their cyclic slumber, the elder races reemerged. The once-powerful jotun refused to rely on magic ever again. They have since remained ignorant, brutish creatures.
9. The Seers set about sharing their stored magic with the world, though society had devolved into divided, violent tribes. Wars broke out over control of the magic pool.
10. The Forgotten allied with Glint and ignored the now to focus on the future. We mursaat... we returned and built a base among the Fire Islands, as strong as ever. The world will one day be ours.

And the Mursaat were incredibly bitter about it all. Kind of hard to hate them considering the level of betrayal involved.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And the Mursaat were incredibly bitter about it all. Kind of hard to hate them considering the level of betrayal involved.

The mursaat lore tablets are incredibly biased though, because the dwarves, seers, and jotun weren't just twiddling their thumbs as implied in the tablets. While the mursaat viewed the three refusing to launch an active assault on an Elder Dragon (which for them would indeed have been suicide as their societies were entirely magic-based), it was the mursaat who openly betrayed the others by waging war on the Seers and nearly wiping them out before fleeing Tyria with their magic and the best weapons against the Elder Dragons.

And when they came back, the mursaat went directly into world domination plans and killed thousands of humans within 5 year span just because there was a prophecy that foretold their demise.

 

Hard to feel sympathetic for this backstabbing and bitter race who's name is confirmed as a coinage of murder and satan.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Sounds like the Mursaat just engaging in historical revisionism to me.

[Kalavier.1097]

13 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Sounds like the Mursaat just engaging in historical revisionism to me.

Twist the truth and make themselves look better for future generations.

The part I believe is the "Jotun cut themselves off from magic and hid" but that's about it.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/17/2022 at 2:08 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Twist the truth and make themselves look better for future generations.

The part I believe is the "Jotun cut themselves off from magic and hid" but that's about it.

The jotun lore, however, is that they didn't voluntarily sever themselves from magic, but that they lost their magic over centuries of conflict where magic-users were targeted first.

The tablets feel like the mursaat were filling in the gaps after they returned. They observed that the jotun had lost their magic, and assumed it was by choice. They observed that Seer artifacts were returning magic to the world, and apparently assumed that the Seers did it (rather than the gods).

[maxwelgm.4315]

This characterization and "personalization" of the Elder Dragons is very problematic imo. To begin with it directly conflicts the original worldbuilding of the EDs being eldritch beings - I do not mean the "unreliable narrator" aspect of having them be perceived as forces of nature but actually have personalities, this might as well have been the case and it would be OK. Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik were well portrayed up until the reveal of their past in EoD.

 

The problem here for me and what conflicts with the worldbuilding is reducing these world eating beings into a family with very human-like personalities and quirks, almost cute furryballs at that, putting all of the "Elder" of "Elder Dragon" exclusively as being the influence of the Void. Having a friendly and empathic  personality to others (more than just benign like Soo Won's) is supposed to be Aurene's uniqueness and not something the Void took away from the others - because Aurene ACTUALLY grew around the races of Tyria and was raised by them - Soo Won came spontaneously from the Mists and created the other EDs with no reference or as far as we know very little reference to surrounding wild life.

 

I assume the Spirits of the Wild were already there which technically makes her Dragon itself? I don't think Anet bothered fitting this into the worldbuilding at all, but the point is that the EDs are vessels of magic and not mere wildlife, and this is established again and again in lore up to the very end of EoD. Their actual domains and why would they even oppose each other if mixing them is just Void is unexplained by this dialogue and this plot beat was extremely underwhelming and unimpressive. The only redeeming thing this could bring - showing us cute furball Elder Dragons - they didn't even do!

[SunRoamer.5103]

49 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

The problem here for me and what conflicts with the worldbuilding is reducing these world eating beings into a family with very human-like personalities and quirks, almost cute furryballs at that, putting all of the "Elder" of "Elder Dragon" exclusively as being the influence of the Void. Having a friendly and empathic  personality to others (more than just benign like Soo Won's) is supposed to be Aurene's uniqueness and not something the Void took away from the others - because Aurene ACTUALLY grew around the races of Tyria and was raised by them - Soo Won came spontaneously from the Mists and created the other EDs with no reference or as far as we know very little reference to surrounding wild life.

I think it's still pretty clear that their characterisation at the end of the DE meta paints them as anything but "friendly and empathetic", even before the void got a hold of them.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

I think it's still pretty clear that their characterisation at the end of the DE meta paints them as anything but "friendly and empathetic", even before the void got a hold of them.

Soo-Won talks about Primordus snuggling up to her tail, and speaks with fondness for the others even if you can find troubling traits in her words. It was very, very much portrayed as "friendly and empathetic". It was entirely designed to paint the Elder Dragons as victims to be sympathized for, even the most genocidal of them.

And the community's reactions and art that was generated from this simple dialogue alone is proof that it worked. Such as this one.

Edited August 29, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[The Greyhawk.9107]

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Soo-Won talks about Primordus snuggling up to her tail, and speaks with fondness for the others even if you can find troubling traits in her words. It was very, very much portrayed as "friendly and empathetic". It was entirely designed to paint the Elder Dragons as victims to be sympathized for, even the most genocidal of them.

And the community's reactions and art that was generated from this simple dialogue alone is proof that it worked. Such as this one.

Eww.

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 8/16/2022 at 2:10 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Elder Dragon plot is over. There shouldn't have been any ambiguity left in major plot points.

Why shouldn't there be? We found A way to deal with each dragon. Doesn't mean there weren't others

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Why shouldn't there be? We found A way to deal with each dragon. Doesn't mean there weren't others

Good writing doesn't leave major questions left unanswered, especially when those major questions would have greatly altered the course of the story, when the plotline is done. In this case, if there were other ways to kill Jormag and Primordus, it shouldn't have been repeatedly shoved in our face that there wasn't - it was a half-assed writing to tell us "there is no other option, these actions must be taken" when all the setup prior told us otherwise, and it was used to excuse idiotic writing decisions like Braham becoming champion of Primordus, which makes no sense as it got stressed several times in IBS itself (let alone the rest of the game) that champions don't control their Elder Dragons but are slaves to them.

 

I could honestly go on for paragraphs on the flaws of Icebrood Saga, most of them centered around Champions, and how the ambiguity left by not explaining plothooks from prior storylines was just bad writing fundamentals, in all honesty. But it kind of feels like beating a dead horse as it is.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 8/29/2022 at 7:58 AM, maxwelgm.4315 said:

This characterization and "personalization" of the Elder Dragons is very problematic imo. To begin with it directly conflicts the original worldbuilding of the EDs being eldritch beings - I do not mean the "unreliable narrator" aspect of having them be perceived as forces of nature but actually have personalities, this might as well have been the case and it would be OK. Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik were well portrayed up until the reveal of their past in EoD.

The thing about this aspect is how over time, we learned more.

At the start of GW2, there was little information on the Elder Dragons from an in-universe perspective. As time went on, we learned more and more. We actually dealt with them more.

This is also why we started off with the goal of killing ALL the elder dragons, and then shifted that as we learned more, and when we got Aurene.