Can we scale back wvw legendary armor requirements?

[yoni.7015]

4 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

the major hurdle is getting a group that are available and willing to play at the time you are also available, this doesn't help.

Why is this a hurdle? Make your own raid group, take your friends and guild mates. You only need nine other players. There are raid training guilds you could join. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Polar.8634]

13 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I don't see how you can believe both of these sentences are true.

Most players just follow zerg and randomly press a skill to tag, therefore their effort for input is low that's what I think is true after years. Guild squads are in minority. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Polar.8634

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

7 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Why is this a hurdle? Make your own raid group, take your friends and guild mates. You only need nine other players. There are raid training guilds you could join. 

It doesn't matter why it is a hurdle, it just matters that it is a hurdle.  You can consider that illogical, it might even be illogical, but that also doesn't matter.  So long as people are rightly or wrongly averse to raiding, then those players will look elsewhere for legendary armour.  Which means, so long as there is no more appealing alternative, they will go to WvW.  This returns me to the point I made earlier that in order to prevent an even bigger influx of those players (assuming WvW rewards are intended to attract WvW players), then there are two options:

 

(1) Keep rewards low enough that farmers aren't attracted to the mode

(2) Buff the rewards somewhere else so that farmer's go there

Edited September 4, 2022 by CrashTestAuto.9108

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

7 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

Most players just follow zerg and randomly press a skill to tag, therefore their effort for not is low that's what I think is true after years. Guild squads are in minority. 

Exactly, but that makes your claim that "Legendary armor is given for doing hard content." is false.  In both WvW and PvP you get legendary armour for doing easy content, for a long time.

[yoni.7015]

4 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

It doesn't matter why it is a hurdle, it just matters that it is a hurdle.  You can consider that illogical, it might even be illogical, but that also doesn't matter.  So long as people are rightly or wrongly averse to raiding, then those players will look elsewhere for legendary armour.  Which means, so long as there is no more appealing alternative, they will go to WvW.  This returns me to the point I made earlier that in order to prevent an even bigger influx of those players (assuming WvW rewards are intended to attract WvW players), then there are two options:

 

(1) Keep rewards low enough that farmers aren't attracted to the mode

(2) Buff the rewards somewhere else so that farmer's go there

But why do you want to prevent them from playing WvW? As someone who plays WvW most of the time, I am happy about every player that plays the mode. 
Some of them will realize that WvW is a lot of fun and will stay. 
 

Edited September 4, 2022 by yoni.7015

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

But why do you want to prevent them from playing WvW? As someone who plays WvW most of the time, I am happy about every player that plays the mode. 
Some of them will realize that WvW is a lot of fun and will stay. 
 

 

I did say, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on that element.  I'm just arguing that if you assume that premise, the rest follows.  However, I can think of a couple of reasons:

 

(1) With limited space on a map, you want people who actually play WvW getting those spots.

(2) As has been mentioned, a lot of players who don't care about WvW just follow a zerg and click skills for participation.  I don't think you need to spend too long listening to commander complaints to get that this isn't ideal 🙂 

(3) I assume Anet wants players to have fun, and therefore pushing people who want to PvE into a game mode they don't like is a bad thing.

 

There is definitely an argument for incentivising people to try WvW (I myself was drawn into it because of legendary armour, and do actually enjoy it).  Again, I'm just saying that if you aren't actively trying to push more PvEers into that mode, then you need to be careful about balancing the rewards.

[Fozzie.5370]

Interesting debate here. @Endilbiach.4132 to be honest, I used to think much like you about WvW Leggy Armour time-sink grind, in comparison with Raid Leggy Armour: I'm a player that loves WvW, but hates Raids. BUT these days I totally accept the requirements of any given item I want, suck it up (just like countless players have done before me), get my head down and grind it out: If I hate any given game-mode or w/e that much I simply will not do it: Make do with Ascended or w/e..

@Sobx.1758: Thing is mate, think that many players (OP, myself included: Don't like RAIDS, don't have a set fixed time to devote whatever 90-180 mins or w/e for Raid Clears, whereas WvW is far more flexible: You can jump in/out solo, small squad, Zerg, GvG, so many options).  Might be just me but I find more players in general hate RAIDS than WvW: In my humble opinion the raids i've done I find boring asf, just a hardened world boss, more difficult mechanics, but its the same kitten every time and is so predicatable, I'm literally bored watching Netflix on other screen while jus spamming my rotation with predictable RAID mechanics easy to spot, WvW is a far more dynamic game mode for me ( elements of PvE, PvP, Very sociable: make lots of friends), my brain craves the game-mode for its diversity and unpredictability as after 10 years playing Gw2, I just can't face the mind-numbingness of one single more Open World META: BUT I will suck it up if i needed to do for a goal/target/achievement/end result and not moan on forum).   Ergo it's an easy statement to say those that want Legendary Armour to go for the RAID (PVE) Armour as is fastest, cheapest route, when for many of us the game mode itself is just boring asf (subjectively speaking ofc, every one is different).

...however, and as much as I agree the Skirmish Ticket Chests are back-loaded I think they are for a good reason, to keep WvW'ers in WvW: If it was easy/fast to attain those tickets in the first few days after Friday reset, WvW would likely be much quieter early/mid week.  The given fact it takes 20-25 hours of gameplay to cap your Skirmish Tickets keeps players in WvW, and if there is one thing WvW needs and that's active players, else it becomes a dead game-mode.  I think it's totally fine as it is tbf, BUT most importantly for every single player that has sunk their life into getting Conflux, Warbringer, Legendary Amour: How would it possibly fair on them if Anet enhanced the reward system ???  I'm always mindful of other players and what they have attained, how long it has taken them, and props to them for doing so love or hate of whichever game-mode they have strived in. 

Benefit of WvW Legendary Armour: It's just time, keep your participation up, go AFK or do something else, go back to WvW: It's not exactly difficult. When you have more dedicated gameplay time, then play more intensively as you wish.  Gift of Battle is also a breeze to get for all those moaning constantly about it: It takes 4 hours (with boosters) / ~ 8 hrs (without).  But I have to do 303 boring asf Renowned Hearts to get Gift of Exploration, but do I moan ?  No: That's the requirment.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<    This bestows my main point  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, you can draw contrasts with WvW Legendary and RAID Legendary armour, but so you can with just about anything else in the game and should Anet change it ?  - I'm of the opinion these days: Accept what you have to do, if you want it, and this is 10 year old game, what about all the previous players that have sunk their time or resources into whatever ( ? perhaps they don't like: RAIDS, WvW, sPVP), and attained their legendary through sheer brute determination ?   Do they deserve a refund or compensation of their time if Anet changed things now ?

If you're going to compare WvW Legendary Amour with RAID Armour, then also compare:

1)  Transcedence (sPvP amulet)  vs Prismatic Champion's Regalia Amulet (PVE): In most people's eyes Transcendence (especially for those that hate PvP, but wanted the trinket): Was a thorn in the side to endure, but one that was necessary in the day if you wanted a Full Leggy Trinket Set, and/or the twin balls effect! lol

2) Compare attainment/time/cost of Frostfang vs Astralaria

3) Compare attainment/time/cost of Griffon Mount vs Skyscale Mount

Where do you stop in drawing comparisons ?

Other point to note, which applies to many of us " The only pressure you exert is largely by yourself ": Take your time, rotate what you do in game, goals/targets are great to have like capping weekly skirmish tickets or weekly raid clear, but don't make yourself miserable in the process, else seriously what's even the point ?   

Edited September 4, 2022 by Greg.7086

[yoni.7015]

9 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

 

I did say, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on that element.  I'm just arguing that if you assume that premise, the rest follows.  However, I can think of a couple of reasons:

 

(1) With limited space on a map, you want people who actually play WvW getting those spots.

(2) As has been mentioned, a lot of players who don't care about WvW just follow a zerg and click skills for participation.  I don't think you need to spend too long listening to commander complaints to get that this isn't ideal 🙂 

(3) I assume Anet wants players to have fun, and therefore pushing people who want to PvE into a game mode they don't like is a bad thing.

 

There is definitely an argument for incentivising people to try WvW (I myself was drawn into it because of legendary armour, and do actually enjoy it).  Again, I'm just saying that if you aren't actively trying to push more PvEers into that mode, then you need to be careful about balancing the rewards.

It is very rare that there are queues on all four maps, this usually only happens at reset. 
My experiences are different, sure there are some that only follows the commander and don’t do much but they are not the majority, at least not on my server. 
If someone doesn’t like WvW then he shouldn’t play it, no one is forcing him. If he wants to play PvE and get a legendary armor, there is a method for that. Play raids. If he don’t like to raid that’s okay as well. 
You forget that legendary armor is not a must have or a necessity. It is a long term QoL goal. 
If you want a legendary armor the game gives you three paths to obtain it. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Polar.8634]

13 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Exactly, but that makes your claim that "Legendary armor is given for doing hard content." is false.  In both WvW and PvP you get legendary armour for doing easy content, for a long time.

you operate absolute values like easy and hard. try "easier" and "harder".

pvp player gets full reward for win and cut reward for lose. Raid player does not get reward for wipe.

Open world player gets full reward regardless what they do, same for wvw. No punishment for low effort play. Thats why its easier to get rewards  from open world and wvw

[Gehenna.3625]

I recently finished my first legendary armor set in wvw. The only thing that I think should be different is how long it takes players to complete the weekly cap or rather a good amount of tickets. Particularly for new players (new in wvw I mean). 

It should reward the early reward chests with many more tickets and then taper down. This means that it takes much less time to get to a decent amount of tickets, but still has the cap in place and you have to play the same amount of time to hit the cap. Hitting the cap still means fewer weeks to get certain items, but not having a lot of time to play (wvw) or being a new player in wvw, will not feel so punishing.

So for people who play a lot anyway and/or of higher rank it won't make a difference but for people who have less time to invest into wvw or who are of lower rank it will feel much more rewarding.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

6 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

you operate absolute values like easy and hard. try "easier" and "harder".

pvp player gets full reward for win and cut reward for lose. Raid player does not get reward for wipe.

Open world player gets full reward regardless what they do, same for wvw. No punishment for low effort play. Thats why its easier to get rewards  from open world and wvw

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're arguing.

 

You said: "Legendary armor is given for doing hard content."

 

Neither WvW, nor PvP is "hard content", so the above statement is not true.  Or, at least, the statement "Legendary armour is ONLY given for doing hard content" isn't true, and if that wasn't the intended meaning then I don't know what point you were making.

 

Easy versus Easier doesn't come into it.  WvW is easier than PvP (maybe), but they're both easy so the distinction is irrelevant.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

11 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

It is very rare that there are queues on all four maps, this usually only happens at reset. 
My experiences are different, sure there are some that only follows the commander and don’t do much but they are not the majority, at least not on my server. 
If someone doesn’t like WvW then he shouldn’t play it, no one is forcing him. If he wants to play PvE and get a legendary armor, there is a method for that. Play raids. If he don’t like to raid that’s okay as well. 
 

All fair points.  Like I said, I'm not arguing that we should discourage PvE players from WvW.  I'm saying that if you start from the premise that you do not want PvE players farming WvW for legendaries, then you need to give them an appealing enough alternative.

 

11 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

You forget that legendary armor is not a must have or a necessity. It is a long term QoL goal. 
If you want a legendary armor the game gives you three paths to obtain it. 

I didn't forget those things.  I'm not sure why you think I did?  A lot of PvEers want the QoL goal, so therefore they go into WvW to get it because the other two paths are unappealing to them.

[Polar.8634]

3 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

You said: "Legendary armor is given for doing hard content."

if for you every game mode is easy content then you are top player and are full lege anyways.

Which is not true because you are crying about low rewards on this forum.

raid and pvp punish for lose and therefore are modes where your rate of earning is higher. because its literally harder to get any result at all.

openworld and wvw dont punish for loose so earning rate is lower. because its literally easier to get full reward in those gamemodes. open world does not offer armor, it offers trinkets and amulet, and that already is too much for effortless grind.

what is still not clear?

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

All fair points.  Like I said, I'm not arguing that we should discourage PvE players from WvW.  I'm saying that if you start from the premise that you do not want PvE players farming WvW for legendaries, then you need to give them an appealing enough alternative.

 

I didn't forget those things.  I'm not sure why you think I did?  A lot of PvEers want the QoL goal, so therefore they go into WvW to get it because the other two paths are unappealing to them.

Like I wrote before, I am happy about every player in WvW. PvE players are usually an easy kill 🙂 and some of them will stay because they get to like WvW.
I started playing WvW after I got my first legendary armor set in PvP and I wanted the legendary WvW backpack and the legendary armor and now I spend most of my time there

 

[OwlMind.7510]

18 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

 

Neither WvW, nor PvP is "hard content", so the above statement is not true.  Or, at least, the statement "Legendary armour is

 

 

 

Raids are not hard content either. You can do only easy bosses and encounters and skip more hard ones like dhumm and quaim, which a lot of groups do. And still have enough LI to complete set waaaaaay faster and with waaaay less  in-game time wasted.

Edited September 4, 2022 by OwlMind.7510

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

6 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

if for you every game mode is easy content then you are top player and are full lege anyways.

Which is not true because you are crying about low rewards on this forum.

raid and pvp punish for lose and therefore are modes where your rate of earning is higher. because its literally harder to get any result at all.

openworld and wvw dont punish for loose so earning rate is lower. because its literally easier to get full reward in those gamemodes. open world does not offer armor, it offers trinkets and amulet, and that already is too much for effortless grind.

what is still not clear?

Honestly... everything.

 

Let's reset, do you think these two sentences are true or false:

 

(1) Legendary armour is only given for hard content.

(2) WvW is hard content.

[Polar.8634]

Just now, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Let's reset, do you think these two sentences are true or false:

 

(1) Legendary armour is only given for hard content.

(2) WvW is hard content.

you better try to understand comment you answer to because answer is already there. I dont see how it is possible to simplify it even more.

[Gehenna.3625]

4 minutes ago, Polar.8634 said:

openworld and wvw dont punish for loose so earning rate is lower. because its literally easier to get full reward in those gamemodes. open world does not offer armor, it offers trinkets and amulet, and that already is too much for effortless grind.

This is technically not true. You do need to kill stuff to cap objectives. Now when you're in a group and do some damage to enemy players or pve-mobs (like lords) and others kill them then you're good. But you do need to kill them or you won't win and get no extra time on your timer.

Which is the same for Raids and PvP if you get carried. However, the threshold for killing pve-stuff in wvw is a lot lower and this is why I'm fine with the length it takes in wvw to get legendary armor. Just not how the ticket gain is distributed.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

8 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Like I wrote before, I am happy about every player in WvW. PvE players are usually an easy kill 🙂 and some of them will stay because they get to like WvW.
I started playing WvW after I got my first legendary armor set in PvP and I wanted the legendary WvW backpack and the legendary armor and now I spend most of my time there

 

We've had pretty similar experiences 🙂 

 

My argument is framed on the premise that ANet (I'll shift to that, rather than an abstract "you") do not want an influx of PvE farmers (or for you, farmees) in WvW.  If that is not the case, then nothing I said holds true.  In which case, sure, just halve the legendary costs and refund the tickets to people (or do one of many alternatives).

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Just now, Polar.8634 said:

you better try to understand comment you answer to because answer is already there. I dont see how it is possible to simplify it even more.

I mean, you could save time and just answer the question.  I've already made it as simple as possible by breaking it down to a pair of True/False statements.

[Polar.8634]

1 minute ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

You do need to kill stuff to cap objectives

you get full progression with tickets even if you just kill a guard npc every few minutes.

the other rewards of wvw are so low i ignore them

For being carried - you can be carried anywhere. in pvp can get strong party, in wvw strong squad or share participation.

 

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

See I don't think it's a derailment, I think it's an important part of the solution.  As has been said, WvW is the most leechable game mode, so any changes needs to deal with that.  But the obvious question is, why is the game designed in a way that means that PvE players will choose to spend MONTHS playing a game mode they don't want to?

 

An open world PvE armour route solves this issue, and it means that WvW can be made more rewarding without risking an influx of PvE farmers.

Because you need to have some understanding of the game to get it in pve and it's connected to the way pve co-op mode can be easier balanced exactly the way devs want to. Meanwhile competitive (wvw/pvp) modes have more moving pieces since you don't really control who you're fighting against. No matter how good you're at the game, almost always there can be someone better -consistently or not- which is why one reward structure is based on successfully completing encounters and the other... not really.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Exactly.  The problem now is that if you say, halved the time it takes to get legendary armour, then there'd be a massive influx of PvE players, because it would then be easily the most appealing option for a lot of (most?) players.

 

Of course, there's a more complex topic on whether having that influx is good or not (that I am not in any way knowledgeable enough to speak on).  But if the design of WvW rewards is intended to encourage players to be there because they enjoy the game mode, rather than because it's an efficient farm, then there are two options:

 

(1) Keep rewards low enough that farmers aren't attracted to the mode

(2) Buff the rewards somewhere else so that farmer's go there

 

As WvW is already arguably the most attractive route to a PvE audience, this issue will become more pronounced if ANet try to reward WvW even more (or, at least, there's a much more complicated approach required).

Or... you know, leave it around what it is now in regards of legendary rewards so people that are actually playing the mode can still earn them, while the people refusing to learn the game's mechanics won't flock to the wvw in order to easly/quickly semi-afk their way into leggies they -for some reason- keep claiming are somehow crucial to playing their game when that's obviously not true.

If someone's goal really is to boost overal rewards in wvw then the answert doesn't need to be based on increasing of currency acquisition, you can balance the exchange prices/rates along with adding new items for exchange (or... you know, reward tracks), leaving long term rewards out of it. But that sure is only a viable solution if people saying "they worry/care about wvw players' rewards" actually think that and not just use it as a way to get easier/faster path to the long term goals.

8 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

As the major hurdle is getting a group that are available and willing to play at the time you are also available, this doesn't help.

Not really, that sure is a ""reason"" some people like to use on this forum, but the groups (including training/low req/no req) are available in lfg pretty consistently. Creating a group is also a rather easy solution for "not having a group for me". The main obstacle is that people don't want to learn the encounters and just want to instantly succeed to zoom to the rewards. And it's additionally shown by the posts/threads first claiming "it's not about the effort/time at all and they're fine with it taking long amount of time", but then pivoting into another post/thread about "it taking too long, make it faster". And yes, that is a repeating theme between/within these threads.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Forum Moderator.3074]

Greetings, I would like to remind you all to keep it civil and on topic. Regards.

[Dinas Dragonbane.2978]

On 9/2/2022 at 9:47 PM, Endilbiach.4132 said:

No, the Raid armor is much easier to get, much cheaper to make, gets you all kinds of other achievements and unique skins as you work to complete it, and is generally more rewarding. 

I am still on page 1 of this perplexing thread but had to quote this part. Does the OP want legendary armor? If they do why aren't they raiding for it as they say that it is much easier, cheaper and faster.

 

Is somebody trying to get legendary level gear with bargain bin effort?