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Can we scale back wvw legendary armor requirements?


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If you play WvW as your main-content, the requirements are not really a problem. If you however come from PvE and look for an acceptable alternative to raiding, it is quite shocking indeed. What you do not get, is the high difficulty difference. To get pips in WvW, all you have to do is being active.

That means keeping your participation of Tier 3 or higher. In order to do that, you can pick various of actions which require very low effort. Almost everything in WvW gives participation. Then you wait for the 5 minutes time in the top-center of the screen go down o 0:00 and start over.

You can increase the amount of pips you gain per tick, like being a commander. But that bonus is very low and does not have a real impact. Most of the pip gain is done with higher WvW ranks (= levelups in WvW). That is however not the cheap-show of PvE, max level is 10,000 here. The last +3 pip gains are acquired for reaching from level 4k to level 10k = almost gaining 6,000 rank-levels!

On the one hand, we have simple and easy system to make the most powerful armor by showing activity once every 5 minutes. On the other hand, we have a very extensive time dedication. That sounds like a weird design?

The WvW community has proven to be a little special. They have faced very little new content over the years. But no matter what new content was added, there have always been massive complains. They have also complained about existing features until they were nerfed and/or completely removed. The Alpine BL are a shadow of their former self, Desert BL is being hated for not being Alpine BL XD. They are basically playing the same map for 10 years now and do not want any change to that. Warclaw was nerfed to oblivion, many wish it was never added at all.

So what is left is spending time in those maps, participating, and most importantly fighting other players. So the only challenging factor is time. What raiding requires in skill, WvW requires in time /shrug. 

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I get your frustration. Been there, done that a few years ago. Got the precursors, started making a Legendary Armor. Completed the helmet and was almost done with the shoulders. Then I realized that I spend all of my freetime in a game-mode I do not enjoy. Not even remotely enjoy. So I did the math again and realized how much time I had to invest O_O. Then I ran a calculation with a minimum effort and ended up with a multiple-year-long chore. I quit the project instantly.

Turns out Exotic armor is perfect for most of the content. Ascended is also not that difficult to obtain. The only things that are worth to obtain in Legendary quality are trinkets & backpack, because they can be used by all of your characters. Armor is limited to weight-class. Backpack can be bypassed with the Bloodstone Fen version, same as 1 ring (if you need infusions for your build) or 2 rings (if no infusions required). I'm happy with my decision.

Edited by HnRkLnXqZ.1870
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8 hours ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Furthermore, if I could get the wvw armor in the same 12 weeks as I could get a set of raid armor this would be a reasonable argument. 

The time requirements are not comparable. PvE/raid legy armor requires some skill (not much if you an experienced raider, but a lot it you are a beginner) but WvW legy armor does not really require skill, you can just semi-afk. So WvW replaced skill with time. That's why WvW legy armor requires a lot more time investment to get (as a beginner. as a veteran you prob. will have enough tickets).

 

8 hours ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Also, let's be perfectly blunt, plenty of people who have legendary armor didn't earn it, they bought it.

You seem to have strange friends. I know several players/friends/guild mates that have several sets of PvE/raid legy armor but none of them payed others to carry them. I think paying to get carried in raids for legy armor is soo expensive only a very few very rich players could afford that.

And: I doesn't work this way at all. There are a few achievements for the legy armor collections which require a little bit of skill and where you have to play yourself. And if you are skilled enough to complete the raid-armor-collections than you are skilled enough to play raids yourself without paying others to carry you.

 

8 hours ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

It's not the same prize.  I would kill for the raid skins

Then play raids and get it instead of asking to get the surrogate cheaper.

 

Edited by Zok.4956
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10 hours ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

They're a little ridiculous. [...]

Literally all I'm asking for here is that we roll back how many skirmish tickets it takes, the current amounts are patently absurd.

Oh, will I get compensated then for the three sets I acquired? 🙂

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It's one of two things for me:

 

Start removing the caps on things like skirmish tickets so if people sink in huge amounts of time they get something instead of nothing and that might actually help keep up WvW populations in the later stages of the week. I know a few who log on Friday/Saturday/Sunday and grind out skirmish tickets and then call it a week.

 

or

 

Lower the cost and flatten it out. Like maybe remove the need to "upgrade" for visuals like they did with Conflux. And then instead of 22 weeks make it 16 or something for tickets/marks. Still a longer grind than PvP or Raids but it is generally speaking a more casual thing.

 

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Has it already been long enough for the previous "legendary armour 2 hard 2 get" thread to disappear from the front page? 

The argument has always been the same.

"Fast" route - learn raid mechanics and get pve gear.

"Slow" route - grind wvw because the amount you are rewarded practically doesn't change based on effort but rather, how long you spend there.

 

Anyone who says they are full clearing weekly raids from day 1 is either bsing or far from your average player. Besides which, if raids are so much easier (according to you) then why not get your gear there? If your argument is that it's too much effort then you are opting for the easier and slower route of wvw or PvP.

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1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

Start removing the caps on things like skirmish tickets so if people sink in huge amounts of time they get something instead of nothing and that might actually help keep up WvW populations in the later stages of the week. I know a few who log on Friday/Saturday/Sunday and grind out skirmish tickets and then call it a week.

This ^

Edited by Vavume.8065
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1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

Start removing the caps on things like skirmish tickets so if people sink in huge amounts of time they get something instead of nothing and that might actually help keep up WvW populations in the later stages of the week.

It would not help the WvW population because players that just play for the tickets (for their legy armor) will stop playing as soon as they have enough tickets. They probably would also feel burned out a lot more.

 

1 hour ago, Leger.3724 said:

I know a few who log on Friday/Saturday/Sunday and grind out skirmish tickets and then call it a week.

And I know a lot who max out their weekly tickets on Sunday and don't care about tickets and play during the week because they like the game mode.

Maybe it's a server thingy. There is a server that played (mostly) only on the weekends and there are servers that play the whole week.

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It need changes, but not making it easier for everyone, one of the problems with WvW rewards is that your participation affect nothing for the most part, yesterday i played for around 2.5 hours, in this time i helped take 2 Keeps, 3 Camps, 3 Towers, defended our main keep on HBL 2 times, and killed/help kill a lot of players (we were mostly zerg fighting), i got x numbers of pips and reward track progression during this time, you know who also got the exact same numbers of pips and RT progression, the person afk walking into a wall in spawn and capturing one camp every 10 minutes, hell, if that person had a higher rank (i'm at 1720), he actually got more rewards than me lol, the only thing i got more was WXP.
And THAT'S the problem with the reward system for the most part, instead of reducing the requirements, they just need to give people more tickets, pips, MoB, etc, based on how active they are.
This way the AFK farmers still get the rewards, but at the same pace everyone get now, while people putting in effort will get stuff faster, how fast will depend on how much effort they are putting.

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14 hours ago, Endaris.1452 said:

That's already such a massive assumption.

How many hours do you take for gold rank? Even with boosters this ought to be a playtime in WvW that is sufficient to earn enough tickets for a full set of legendary armor of one armor class, if not two.

I think just making the ticket gains more linear would already do a lot to make WvW rewards more of a goal to work towards (and I'm not talking specifically about legy armor to be fair).

Currently it looks like this:

Wood, 100 Pips, 17 tickets
Bronze, 120 Pips, 25 tickets, 122% tickets per pip compared to wood
Silver, 175 Pips, 40 Tickets, 134% tickets per pip compared to wood
Gold, 200 Pips, 50 Tickets, 147% tickets per pip compared to wood
Platinum, 225 Pips, 60 Tickets, 156% tickets per pip compared to wood
Mithril, 300 Pips, 83 Tickets, 162% tickets per pip compared to wood
Diamond, 330 Pips, 90 Tickets, 160% tickets per pip compared to wood

How the spread should look to make smaller time investments into WvW worthwhile:

Wood, 100 Pips, 25 tickets
Bronze, 120 Pips, 30 tickets
Silver, 175 Pips, 44 Tickets
Gold, 200 Pips, 50 Tickets
Platinum, 225 Pips, 57 Tickets
Mithril, 300 Pips, 75 Tickets
Diamond, 330 Pips, 83 Tickets

That is a constant ~0.252 tickets per pip throughout, making players that get bronze weekly with a time investment of 2-2.5h get a whopping 13 tickets more (assuming bronze rank and extra pip from wood in previous week). No adverse effects to players that are playing more either.

I was gold rank years ago playing WVW even before skirmish tracks existed. The reason I remember is because for Desert BL beta I was that rank and it was pre-HOT (i.e. before first expansion). Plus it was playing core mesmer of all things as nobody else really wanted to forgo loot and drops (the guardians with staff auto , ele staff, hammer warriors, or necro with marks) to put down veils and portals. At the time we even had to pay for armor repairs and such and ascended food did not exist.

If you're complaining about rank it probably means you aren't doing things that will up your rank. It's very simple since even the ranker daily is 2 ranks in one day. You can even run boosters for this unlike for skirmish tracks.

I find typically the people that struggle with rank are those that treat WvW as glorified openworld PvP 1v1 battlegrounds or just kill the veteran wargs and sentries. You need to understand that WvW is about capping structures and that most combat will involve capping SMC, keeps, or towers. Obviously the main combat will occur revolving those structures. Even the defending side will gain massive amounts of WXP if the attacking side is killed (with diminishing returns of course). Camps and sentry points are meant to be flipped constantly. You can easily spend 10 hours doing absolutely nothing if you don't play the mode as intended.

Note your thread is about legendary armor requirements which are not a necessity in any fashion whatsoever. Ascended , even exotic, is perfectly serviceable in WVW. The instances where the ascended helps is when you are capping a keep exclusively and use offensive +5 power WVW infusions to maximize your squad's damage such that you kill the lord up to 18% faster. The damage bonus is only versus guards not other players.

FYI : I've made 2 Conflux, the backpiece, and 3 sets of WVW legendary armor (never reimbursed since PVE raid armor is a  separate skin). If you're in WVW for rewards it's the wrong mindset completely. If i had to bet, once you finish your armor you'd be leaving the mode completely since you weren't there for the community or gameplay.

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6 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Oh, will I get compensated then for the three sets I acquired? 🙂

If I'm calling the shots?  Absolutely.  If we brought the skirmish ticket requirement for the Legendary War Insight down to 365 tickets (which might be excessive, but that's a numbers crunching thing) I would gleefully see you reimbursed for the difference.

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12 hours ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

I'm sitting here thinking that Raid armor is in a good place.  12 weeks for a full set, 2 weeks a piece roughly, is a good time frame for a full suit of legendary armor.

If it is, then it's because it requires you to learn the game.

You clearly understand the concept here:

On 7/31/2021 at 12:56 AM, Endilbiach.4132 said:

Setting that aside, who cares about hard?  If it's about the effort put in then substitute time for challenge, and call it a day. 

 

Nobody is "gatekeeping" anything from you, you just refuse to play the content and want everything to be easier/faster for you. You claim raids are so much faster and easier, but you admit you never even entered them, so all you have here is false reasoning to bend the truth and leverage even faster/easier way to get what you want. And it's now a year from your last thread -maybe if you spent less time asking for rewards on the forum and more time getting those rewards ingame, you wouldn't need to still complain about it today. 🙄

Edited by Sobx.1758
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I'm not raiding. So probably aiming for a mix of PvP/WvW - for the armor. For PvE I already have a ton of tickets cause I do the seasonal track each season since a few years. WvW ... I only play at reset to get wooden chest for the commitment bonus in the following week.

Honestly: It is not really motivating to have to spend tons of hours (almost only playing WvW) - to finish the last chest there. Since the matchups are only 1 week and this is aimed to give a bonus to the veteran players that get more pips from higher WvW rank. (Then it still wouuld take long I guess.) If we look at all the stuff we can buy ... I guess compared to the PvP armor there is too much of a difference.

Already the legendary back item had the one in PvP with the lowest of all material costs I think. (First legendary item I ever did.) They could change this to give bigger amounts of tickets at the beginning and less tickets later at the higher chests in the weekly reward track. (Then again: ... veteran players might something els for compensation - but I guess a lot of them already aim for legendaries and might have finished them and would not be against modificatoins to give other rewards than tickets at the higher tiered chests.)

Edit: According to the wiki for PvE though the Ascended shards of glory seem to be the bigger restriction - while the tickets can be obtained faster. (By completing the final chest only once it would take 9 seasons. Between 1 and 2 years for a set. Still ... aiming for even that in WvW because of the slow ticket acquisition ... would take more effort I guess.)

Edit2: If I use this calculator: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Special:RunQuery/WvW_skirmish_pip_query

with the total amount of tickets needed for one full set ... and average settings for a new player (bronze rank, 33 percent for each of the boni from war score - commitment always on) ... and with only playing 5 hours per weak ... it will take already a lot longer than PvP even if you aim to complete only the season until the last chest once (not repeating that one). Taking into account the ascended shards requirement from PvP. While for completing the seaonal track often only playing 2-3 matches each day are enough. (I usually finish earlier in the season not too tight towards the last day.) (Calculating with 15 minutes per match and 3 matches a week it would be a bit more than 5 hours per week for PvP.) But not that huge the difference.

I guess we also need to look at the other things that we can buy besides the armor. WvW you'll end up with a lot more tickets if playing that way (with the shards being the harder restriction) ... being able to buy other rewards as well there with the leftover tickets. (While having to use the shards only for legendary.) For WvW the tickets need to be fully saved for the armor - while you can spend other stuff like memories of battle (that all is buyable at the tp I think) - for other things.

Edited by Luthan.5236
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18 hours ago, Endaris.1452 said:

Given that WvW hardly gives good rewards anyway

Yeah the burden of being the most leachable game mode. I too wish ticket gain would be at least static instead off back loaded. I doubt that would affect the number of leeches by much while being great for people who want to play some WvW without living in it.

WvW armor is the easiest to get in effort and as such the longest to acquire. All these pure hour comparison are useless without context. In PvP and Raids you generally can't avoid the challenge. Player hit normally a little harder, but you don't have to organize a squad to get beat by XXXWintrader69. In WvW you literally can work towards legendary while killing NPC. You can't do that in Raid. You can progress that way in PvP, but doing so will triple your time needed putting it back on par with WvW.

All modes are somewhat equal so it comes down to preference. Everybody who states there is a grieve injustice didn't try the other methods.

Edited by Albi.7250
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2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you're complaining about rank it probably means you aren't doing things that will up your rank. It's very simple since even the ranker daily is 2 ranks in one day. You can even run boosters for this unlike for skirmish tracks.

Oh, I do, I'm barely silver rank myself and use all the boosters, amulet upgrade, guild hall buff etc. and make sure to always get the WvW supply boxes from the daily material gobblers.

The issue is that either you're a WvW main in which case you will have enough tickets and rank anyway.

Or you're an "all-mode" player like me that mainly does PvE but still spent a reasonably significant amount of time (several hundred hours) in PvP/WvW. I mentioned rank as a reference because I managed to craft a full precursor armor set, one piece of legy armor, a conflux and one or two hero's mistforged weapons - and I'm like rank 635 or something? Owed to mainly playing support FB when zerging. I did eventually give up on the crafting process for the WvW armor as I eventually got all of them from raids even though my original plan was to get heavy from WvW, medium from PvP and light from PvE. The PvP one I actually got half-way done and I also have the PvP back.

I'm not saying this to say that ticket gain should be higher or it should be easier to acquire but mainly for the perspective:

Given the rewards available from WvW, someone who is reaching gold rank these days most certainly has earned enough tickets to craft a full set of legendary armor for one weight. And for that reason I think it is unreasonable to assume gold rank for someone farming tickets for that. Due to my personal experience I strongly believe the realistic pip-gain for someone trying to get legendary armor through WvW is 2nd place, bronze rank bonus pips and wood repititon bonus pips.

And ultimately it seems only fair to introduce a linear progression for ticket gain. With the current design, unless you know you can commit to finish all the chests, it is disincentivized to just play WvW for 3-4 hours per week even though that would already do a lot for the game mode itself.

 

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12 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

Oh, I do, I'm barely silver rank myself and use all the boosters, amulet upgrade, guild hall buff etc. and make sure to always get the WvW supply boxes from the daily material gobblers.

The issue is that either you're a WvW main in which case you will have enough tickets and rank anyway.

Or you're an "all-mode" player like me that mainly does PvE but still spent a reasonably significant amount of time (several hundred hours) in PvP/WvW. I mentioned rank as a reference because I managed to craft a full precursor armor set, one piece of legy armor, a conflux and one or two hero's mistforged weapons - and I'm like rank 635 or something? Owed to mainly playing support FB when zerging. I did eventually give up on the crafting process for the WvW armor as I eventually got all of them from raids even though my original plan was to get heavy from WvW, medium from PvP and light from PvE. The PvP one I actually got half-way done and I also have the PvP back.

I'm not saying this to say that ticket gain should be higher or it should be easier to acquire but mainly for the perspective:

Given the rewards available from WvW, someone who is reaching gold rank these days most certainly has earned enough tickets to craft a full set of legendary armor for one weight. And for that reason I think it is unreasonable to assume gold rank for someone farming tickets for that. Due to my personal experience I strongly believe the realistic pip-gain for someone trying to get legendary armor through WvW is 2nd place, bronze rank bonus pips and wood repititon bonus pips.

So for some reason you're only restricting your opinions to one set and ignore the other two?

Not only that but this seems to be basically a complaint about a long term goal being long term. This is not some obligatory goal any fresh player needs/is supposed to complete the moment they see it. "but what if the new player wants it"? Well then the new player has all the content and time to pursue the goal they want. As far as I'm concerned, this was never a fast and easy type of goal, despite of what OP tries to claim to make it into one, while actively refusing particiaption in that content to get his fast and easy rewards.

12 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

With the current design, unless you know you can commit to finish all the chests, it is disincentivized to just play WvW for 3-4 hours per week even though that would already do a lot for the game mode itself.

How is this disincentivized? You're saying that getting 10% of the ticket cap is worse than getting 0%? Slower progress is still progress. Maybe tickets could use some redistribution, but I wouldn't agree with saying it disincentivizes participation.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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11 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

Oh, I do, I'm barely silver rank myself and use all the boosters, amulet upgrade, guild hall buff etc. and make sure to always get the WvW supply boxes from the daily material gobblers.

The issue is that either you're a WvW main in which case you will have enough tickets and rank anyway.

Or you're an "all-mode" player like me that mainly does PvE but still spent a reasonably significant amount of time (several hundred hours) in PvP/WvW. I mentioned rank as a reference because I managed to craft a full precursor armor set, one piece of legy armor, a conflux and one or two hero's mistforged weapons - and I'm like rank 635 or something? Owed to mainly playing support FB when zerging. I did eventually give up on the crafting process for the WvW armor as I eventually got all of them from raids even though my original plan was to get heavy from WvW, medium from PvP and light from PvE. The PvP one I actually got half-way done and I also have the PvP back.

I'm not saying this to say that ticket gain should be higher or it should be easier to acquire but mainly for the perspective:

Given the rewards available from WvW, someone who is reaching gold rank these days most certainly has earned enough tickets to craft a full set of legendary armor for one weight. And for that reason I think it is unreasonable to assume gold rank for someone farming tickets for that. Due to my personal experience I strongly believe the realistic pip-gain for someone trying to get legendary armor through WvW is 2nd place, bronze rank bonus pips and wood repititon bonus pips.

And ultimately it seems only fair to introduce a linear progression for ticket gain. With the current design, unless you know you can commit to finish all the chests, it is disincentivized to just play WvW for 3-4 hours per week even though that would already do a lot for the game mode itself.

 

I'm not sure how long you have been playing but mistforged used to be 2K WVW rank required , before the current 500. That's beyond gold rank. In fact you need 1226+ ranks (just under gold) just to have max WVW masteries.

The fact that legendary WVW armor can be made without mistforged unlocked is appeasing to people that aren't that dedicated to the mode whatsoever.

P.S. if you play support you can have the commander give you shared participation.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Maybe tickets could use some redistribution, but I wouldn't agree with saying it disincentivizes participation.

I think it does.

I can elect to play WvW for 2-2.5h per week to get wood+bronze every time, getting ~380 tickets over 9 weeks at a total time investment of 18-22.5h

Or I can just blast through diamond in a single week only taking about 15h.

This discrepancy makes investing time into WvW when you can't go far into the pip rewards seem like a bad investment opposed to doing other things and instead no-lifing WvW when you know you have the time to definitely get diamond.

14 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm not sure how long you have been playing but mistforged used to be 2K WVW rank required , before the current 500. That's beyond gold rank. In fact you need 1226+ ranks (just under gold) just to have max WVW masteries.

Yeah, I know that, I didn't mind the old requirements either. Note that I mentioned Hero's Mistforged WEAPONS, not armor - they don't have that requirement but still cost a fair amount of tickets.

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4 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

I think it does.

I can elect to play WvW for 2-2.5h per week to get wood+bronze every time, getting ~380 tickets over 9 weeks at a total time investment of 18-22.5h

Or I can just blast through diamond in a single week only taking about 15h.

This discrepancy makes investing time into WvW when you can't go far into the pip rewards seem like a bad investment opposed to doing other things and instead no-lifing WvW when you know you have the time to definitely get diamond.

Yeah, I know that, I didn't mind the old requirements either. Note that I mentioned Hero's Mistforged WEAPONS, not armor - they don't have that requirement but still cost a fair amount of tickets.

Then why isn't your thread about "I regret buying mistforged weapons because they cost a boatload of skirmish tickets and memories of battle" instead of "wvw legendary armor"?

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Silver rank here (around 700), I made one full set of light legendary armor (+ the tentacle coat variant), one conflux and I almost have enough tickets for a second conflux. Took some months, but it was mostly afking in SMC, occasionally going around to defend the castle with some big action during reset nights.

If I had put the same effort in raids I would have been kicked from any squad, so technically for me the PvE legendary armor requires infinite weeks.

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8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Then why isn't your thread about "I regret buying mistforged weapons because they cost a boatload of skirmish tickets and memories of battle" instead of "wvw legendary armor"?

It's not my thread and I didn't make any strong arguments for increasing ticket gain, mainly just arguing for making acquisition rate linear.

I actually regret even crafting WvW legy armor even more since I have legendary armor of different game modes now that are entirely obsolete but that's off-topic.

Edited by Endaris.1452
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11 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

I think it does.

I can elect to play WvW for 2-2.5h per week to get wood+bronze every time, getting ~380 tickets over 9 weeks at a total time investment of 18-22.5h

Or I can just blast through diamond in a single week only taking about 15h.

This discrepancy makes investing time into WvW when you can't go far into the pip rewards seem like a bad investment opposed to doing other things and instead no-lifing WvW when you know you have the time to definitely get diamond.

Then do those other better things. Plenty of people to fight with in wvw anyways. If the reward structure in wvw needs work, it's not really connected to "just getting that armor faster".

The amount of times some people try to claim "they can just get armor faster and easier x way", but then... they still refuse to do it in an attempt to create yet another faster and easier way is pretty mind blowing in this (and maybe not just this) thread.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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On 9/3/2022 at 10:20 PM, Endaris.1452 said:

It kind of is because it makes acquisition faster for people who cannot cap out pips every week.

No, it is not. When wvw players complain about rewards, it's not a "give me that armor faster" complaint. You're just trying to adapt the general lacking reward structure complaint and use it for your attempt to make whatever armor acquisition faster/easier than it is.

Also you've missed the rest of the post, again.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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