Friendly reminder that MMOs need criticism

[HowlKamui.5120]

criticism is fine as long as it's objective and actually grounded on facts.

[Silent.6137]

21 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Idk where the mindset is coming from, but in my observation so far, when people get burned enough by one studio or another it seems to put a dent in it one way or another.

So you think all studios are out to burn their customers. And you expect subsequent ones to be different?

mas·och·ism noun the enjoyment of what appears to be painful or tiresome:: pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering

P. T. Barnum - "There's a sucker born every minute"

 

 

[Mungrul.9358]

There's a lot of people here who disagree with criticism or suggestions just for the sake of it, because they think every point should have a counter, no matter how stultifyingly stupid their counter-point is.

 

There are some where appealing to their better sides won't work, because as far as they're concerned, the developer's decisions are sacrosanct and player-instigated change is always bad.

 

There are some who will disagree just because they hold a long-term grudge against the person suggesting the change.

 

And there are some who just do it "for the lulz".

 

Once you begin to recognise these posters, add them to your ignore list and move on. The best way to engage with these types is simply not to.

 

And a vanishingly small number engage in good faith and have genuine counterpoints. These are people you should learn to respect and cherish.

[The Boz.2038]

Criticism needs criticism, too.

[Gibson.4036]

5 hours ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

criticism is fine as long as it's objective and actually grounded on facts.

Hm, sometimes I think this is the problem with a lot of the discussion on this forum, when honestly, we’re mostly subjective, and don’t really know the facts of game production or how most players play.

“I don’t like this aspect of the game, it diminishes my enjoyment” is perfectly legitimate customer feedback.

Then the forum warriors descend with their supposed “objective facts” about what it would take to change it and how it would effect player population and studio income. In reality, they’re just making guesses at such things not having access to player metrics, the inside workings of ArenaNet, or usually even any experience in game design nor publishing.

It would often be more legitimate to just respond, “I disagree, that aspect actually makes it more fun for me,” than to try and martial an objective argument based on partial (if that) “facts”.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[DaFishBob.6518]

5 hours ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

criticism is fine as long as it's objective and actually grounded on facts.

Yeah sure, then responses get limited to a confused face reaction instead of discussion.

[Mik.3401]

We are in different era for mmos now. The genre is in decline, and to lure new players in devs aim to make games simpler and add more rewards. We can observe it in case of GW2 because that’s their plan for future, they even said it themselves they don’t want to invest in complex/skill heavy specs anymore.

So we may criticise the game all we want but the current development is not about the game being best possible anymore, it is about attracting  new players. And these two things are not the same. So we can debate it all we want but it won’t change a thing.

[JTGuevara.9018]

9 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

 

No you did not.

When the art world is so small in comparison to the gaming world, there's bound to be more people vocal about their disagreements. In the gaming world, fights are carried out in the forum and various medium. In the art world, it's pitchfork, tars and feathers.

 

 

So, I'm not allowed to provide opposing views defending a game I like because I view some of those criticism as unjustified? If I do, I'm a shill? If all you have are criticisms, then what would be the term we should call you?

I do not think this game is perfect. And have voiced it on this forum, albeit not often. As there are "shills and stans co-ordinate and discredit that person" who criticize the game, there are those who would criticize the game every opportunity they get. Absolutely nothing about the game has any redeeming qualities..but yet, they keep on playing. And keeps on being vocal about how terrible the game is. Really makes you wonder.

Excuse me, the art world is small? The visual and fine arts have influenced and impacted peoples and cultures across different time periods. Art is also a universal language as well as a cultural and historical repository for a civilization. Can't say the same for games! Gaming has not simply reached that level of cultural impact. Hell, it hasn't even existed that long to have that sort of impact. Remember that art has a history behind it.

 

10 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Oof. I think you're hitting on a really insightful point there. I see a lot of discourse across different games that is essentially players defending the business side of games as if they are working for the business directly. But because they aren't actually working for that business and lack the details, it ends up being more speculative than a specific insight into the studio's operations. The result is a lot of stuff that comes across as "this specific thing in this specific situation has to be done this way [because the business of games]" without any evidence to back it up. It's pretty odd and I'm not saying this to insult the people who do it, just observe. I think there have been times in years past I was that way somewhat myself (getting burned time after time by different studios helped evaporate that mindset for me). Idk where the mindset is coming from, but in my observation so far, when people get burned enough by one studio or another it seems to put a dent in it one way or another.

Yup. Exactly the point I was making. People defend it like they're "in the biz". People with certain mindsets identify way too much with the product as well as play the social gate-keeper role. SAME thing goes on in comics, music and art, by the way. So-called "in" groups and "out" groups.

[Sobx.1758]

41 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Yup. Exactly the point I was making. People defend it like they're "in the biz". People with certain mindsets identify way too much with the product as well as play the social gate-keeper role.

Isn't it hilariously convenient how you can critcise anything and it's perfectly fine, but the moment someone has a different opinion and explains it to you, you're free to ignore the arguments and default into calling them shills/"people just defending it like they're in the biz"/"people identifying with the product too much"/"social gate-keepers"?

How about instead of defaulting into this weird "me criticising product is always good, you pointing out [criticizing] what's wrong with my criticism means you're not objective", you pay attention to the contents of the posts? 🙄 It sure will be less convenient for you, but it will probably be a little more objective.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Silent.6137]

7 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Excuse me, the art world is small? The visual and fine arts have influenced and impacted peoples and cultures across different time periods. Art is also a universal language as well as a cultural and historical repository for a civilization. Can't say the same for games! Gaming has not simply reached that level of cultural impact. Hell, it hasn't even existed that long to have that sort of impact. Remember that art has a history behind it.

Let's try and truly dissect your statements here.

• First you are painting with a broad brush in your assertions. By that, I meant humongous brush. You lumped all forms of arts as one but single out video gaming as the only medium in the genre. But we'll go with that.
• Time-frame. Yes, Arts has been around for a very long time and video gaming is still in its infancy. But does that means Art is more popular because it has been around longer? Let me provide an analogy. A 10 year old youtube video with 100 views per year versus a 1 year video with 200 views. Does that make that 10 year old video 5X more popular? Or is the 1 year old video twice as popular when you take into account the time differences.
• It really doesn't matter what Art is. We're talking about the popularity and those directly engaged with it. Video games are not limited to a single race, country or culture. Although it hasn't been around very long, it has more impact on society than Arts will ever attain by the sheer number of people participating in it. How many play video games the past year? I'm talking about all video games: PC and console; MMOs and single player. In comparison, how many attend performing arts, museums, art galleries, etc.?
• Arts, through the ages, have always been confined mainly to the rich and affluent. Peasants and commoners do NOT have time to indulge in them. They are too busy trying to raise families and feed themselves. Even in this modern era, who goes to concert? Those with disposable incomes. Who play video games? The whole spectrum of the populations because it is very affordable. If Arts are attended by millions, Video Gaming are played by 100's of millions.

 

The Art world is miniscule when you lay them side by side against Video Gaming. Popularity and size of participants determine that. Put them in perspective. Just because something has been around longer doesn't mean they are bigger and more popular. Compare them within snapshots of time.

7 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

Yup. Exactly the point I was making. People defend it like they're "in the biz". People with certain mindsets identify way too much with the product as well as play the social gate-keeper role. SAME thing goes on in comics, music and art, by the way. So-called "in" groups and "out" groups.

I defend video games when I view the criticism(s) to be unjust. I do not fixate on praising every aspect of video games, GW2 included. If there's something that requires criticism. I'll criticize it. As I asked you before, are we not allowed to defend something we enjoy without being branded?

If I only have criticism for something I'm engaged in, I would not be participating in it for long. Why frustrate and stress yourself if you dislike or hate virtually everything about it? Why are you even playing GW2 if you don't see any redeeming quality for the game?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Silent.6137

[DexterousGecko.6328]

On 9/3/2022 at 11:22 AM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

OP, you are certainly correct. Also, I will add that every form of art needs criticism, or more accurately said, critique.  Critique is crucially important for an artist and their work to grow and progress. It's an objective analysis of a work's strengths and weaknesses. This is the case in the visual arts (drawing, painting) and the performing arts (theater, dance, film). The digital arts (gaming, animation, etc) should be no exception.

Unfortunately, gaming communities as a whole have NOT matured past a fifth grade level. So every substantial critique of a game becomes a freakin' controversy. People just cannot accept that their beloved game has flaws so they draw the battle lines in the sand and attempt to defend their product. The worst, to me, is defending and shilling for the corporations and publishers that made it. (lmao) They don't need you defending them. They're out to make a buck and YOU'RE giving it to them.

Also, see Gamergate. A hate movement targeted towards women under the guise of so-called "media objectivity". If not that then it's a big temper tantrum towards lesbian main characters "polluting" their franchises.

That's a lot of words and an odd way of just saying "tribalism exists". Why would you think that gaming is unique in this?

[HowlKamui.5120]

On 9/5/2022 at 9:50 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

Hm, sometimes I think this is the problem with a lot of the discussion on this forum, when honestly, we’re mostly subjective, and don’t really know the facts of game production or how most players play.

“I don’t like this aspect of the game, it diminishes my enjoyment” is perfectly legitimate customer feedback.

Then the forum warriors descend with their supposed “objective facts” about what it would take to change it and how it would effect player population and studio income. In reality, they’re just making guesses at such things not having access to player metrics, the inside workings of ArenaNet, or usually even any experience in game design nor publishing.

It would often be more legitimate to just respond, “I disagree, that aspect actually makes it more fun for me,” than to try and martial an objective argument based on partial (if that) “facts”.

“I don’t like this aspect of the game, it diminishes my enjoyment” is fine, but then try to add an explanation why, so the discussion can actually happen.

Anyway, I was mostly focused on criticism and not feedback. The two are entirely different things. If you are going to post a thread here, it should be a criticism, where you analyze the faults or merits of an aspect of the game. This way discussions can actually happen.

Making a thread where you just say that you hate x, or dislike y, is pointless.

Edited September 8, 2022 by HowlKamui.5120

[Labjax.2465]

47 minutes ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

“I don’t like this aspect of the game, it diminishes my enjoyment” is fine, but then try to add an explanation why, so the discussion can actually happen.

Anyway, I was mostly focused on criticism and not feedback. The two are entirely different things. If you are going to post a thread here, it should be a criticism, where you analyze the faults or merits of an aspect of the game. This way discussions can actually happen.

Making a thread where you just say that you hate x, or dislike y, is pointless.

I think I agree in theory, but in practice, sometimes there is no winning; you say "I dislike X" and are dismissed because you didn't explain. You say why and you are dismissed because it's an invalid reason you gave. In other words, sometimes the problem is that you are criticizing at all, not how you say it or what you say, and that is a mentality I have problems with.

I also have problems with the mentality of giving people trouble because they praise a game. That is something I see way less commonly on game forums (it usually skews toward defending the game), but there was one person in another game where it seemed to be somewhat of a habit of theirs. I figured I would mention that just to highlight that I don't care about this because I want criticism to dominate every conversation about a game, nor do I want criticism to never receive any disagreement, but because I don't want people to feel unwelcome and/or harassed for bringing up an issue they have, whether it's popular or unpopular. As it stands, it tends to be the case that having a popular criticism won't get you much trouble, but having an unpopular one may get you dogpiled and I think that's rough. It's rough to watch somebody get dogpiled just because their views on the game aren't shared by some forum frequenters and it sure isn't conducive to discussion. And the person that happens to, they aren't likely gonna want to come back for more after that happens.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Gibson.4036]

6 hours ago, HowlKamui.5120 said:

“I don’t like this aspect of the game, it diminishes my enjoyment” is fine, but then try to add an explanation why, so the discussion can actually happen.

Anyway, I was mostly focused on criticism and not feedback. The two are entirely different things. If you are going to post a thread here, it should be a criticism, where you analyze the faults or merits of an aspect of the game. This way discussions can actually happen.

Making a thread where you just say that you hate x, or dislike y, is pointless.

Totally agree that it’s helpful to explain why a person likes or dislikes something. Just saying you hate something isn’t constructive.

Where it often goes off the rails is when someone then tries to dispute that person’s preference pretending objectivity, when they’re really just stating that they have a different preference.

[gateless gate.8406]

It's very, very hard to improve without criticism. Also, it is more of an internal thing than external; Anet can get all the constructive, calm, rational criticism in the world, but if they can't internally engage with that criticism without becoming overly defensive, then nothing changes (and in fact things may change for the worse as the injured creator doubles down on the pain points). At the same time, of course we must allow for differences in vision. The game is still great, but only Anet decides if the game gets better. Many things have improved lately so personally I do have faith.

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You say why and you are dismissed because it's an invalid reason you gave. In other words, sometimes the problem is that you are criticizing at all, not how you say it or what you say, and that is a mentality I have problems with.

So you see it as a problem when everyone doesn't just blindly agree with you regardless of what they actually think about the topic. Your opinion good, counter-opinion bad (which you even reduce to bad "mentality" for whatever reason). If you think you are free to share your opinion on the forum -and you are- then you should quite easly understand that... so are the others, even if it doesn't overlap with yours.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758