So, Twisted Marionette isn't part of Season 1?

[Mervil.7461]

Well, we're already at Tower of Nightmares, and there's only 1 left--Battle for Lion's Arch I'm assuming.

 

I missed out on the release of this "Strike mission" last year, and no matter how many times I go to join, the most I've ever seen in the instance if 5 people (even after reset). So, I am very disappointed this wasn't added to the Season 1 storyline.

 

Please? Can you guys work it into Season 1? 

Thank you!

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Isn't it part of the achievements for this release?  Pretty sure I saw it at the bottom.

[Infusion.7149]

Twisted Marionette is part of the achievements.
Hero Panel --> Tower of Nightmares --> Seeking Scarlet: Twisted Marionette

[Luthan.5236]

I did play until end of 2013 back then ... if I remember correctly. Then stopped. I missed the remaining part of season 1. I think the Marionette was after tower of nightmares? Too bad they do not give this an own chapter with stuff in the living world. Wasn't Taimi intoduced there? (I think ... from what I have seen in that 3 hour video on YouTube recapping the first season.) I wonder how they are going to introduce her in episode 5.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Twisted Marionette is part of Season 1, but like Twilight Arbor's Aetherpath, ArenaNet is not including a story journal for every single tiny little thing. They're treating the two, which were part of the game for a while before LWS1 Return, as side story content (despite it being the introduction of Taimi).

Besides, TM is not something you can easily or feasibly rebalance for less than 25 players without fundamentally changing the system. Which is probably more work than they decide is worth doing.

 

It's a bit disappointing that they're regulating the introduction of Taimi to an optional side event. It makes me very worried for the introduction of Kasmeer/Marjory relationship in A Moment's Peace story instance from the same release as TM. They already removed the 'naked illusion' dialogue between Marjory and Kasmeer which was the first time the two were flirting.

But at least it's not given the same level of treatment as the two Southsun arcs, where it "happened but new dialogue cheekily suggests the Commander wasn't involved even if old S1 flags for NPC dialogue still react to the player's involvement".

Edited September 14, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I did play until end of 2013 back then ... if I remember correctly. Then stopped. I missed the remaining part of season 1. I think the Marionette was after tower of nightmares? Too bad they do not give this an own chapter with stuff in the living world. Wasn't Taimi intoduced there? (I think ... from what I have seen in that 3 hour video on YouTube recapping the first season.) I wonder how they are going to introduce her in episode 5.

I'm a bit worried for Taimi and Canach, as they're mostly/only (respectively) involved in open world stuff which has been very limited in returning so far. ToN does do it better than Sky Pirates and Clockwork Chaos but it's still a fraction of the original stuff.

Taimi's roles in Season 1 were limited to:

1. Twisted Marionette
2. A Moment's Peace instance
3. Edge of the Mists open world
4. Escape from Lion's Arc/Battle for Lion's Arch Gendarran Fields open world (very minor dialogue - no voiced lines)
5. The Dead End: Aftermath instance

Her biggest role was arguably Edge of the Mists, which is very likely imo to get cut out, while her introduction was Twisted Marionette. It'll be very weird and jarring to players who follow the main story and the first interaction they get with her is the Aftermath instance. It'll be no different than as it is now with Season 2 - "who the hell is she and why is she so friendly and everyone knows her?"

Canach will be the same (except "hostile" instead of "friendly"), and outside of the already cut Southsun arcs, his only involvement is Edge of the Mists open world - and just couple dialogue discussions about Mai Trin's escape - and a cameo in Escape from Lion's Arch where he is escorted out of Fort Marriner with the VIPs (and presumably, lorewise, other prisoners).

[Danikat.8537]

I really hope they include Taimi and Braham's conversations in Edge of the Mists. That was the first time we learned about Taimi's disability and at least for me her involvement in that storyline was when she went from being another generic NPC to an actual character in the story. It's also fairly important for establishing the Aetherblades frequent use of mists portals, which is relevant to later storylines, including EoD.

I don't know how they could make it work in the new format because the whole point of that release was to introduce Edge of the Mists and prompt players to try it out and there's not really a way to do that within the story journal, but I hope they work those conversations in somehow.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 9/14/2022 at 8:57 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's a bit disappointing that they're regulating the introduction of Taimi to an optional side event. It makes me very worried for the introduction of Kasmeer/Marjory relationship in A Moment's Peace story instance from the same release as TM. They already removed the 'naked illusion' dialogue between Marjory and Kasmeer which was the first time the two were flirting.

I think that's more of an accident of them condensing what was four weeks of events into a single episode, so Ambient dialogue (like that one) is removed because at the end of episode Marjory and Kasmeer poof, instead of hanging around at the camp until the next update hit.

It's an interesting thing to see really, how obvious the writing at the time was based around the two week update schedule, such as this episode flashing up "two weeks later" after the one episode to state how they'd been trying to kill the tower's heart for weeks with shipments of anti-toxin.

While we are hitting the major notes of each chapter, there is little bits that are cut that fleshed out the experience more. More easily seen in some areas then others, like Clockwork chaos going straight from opening ceremony to the closing ceremony in an instant, when it had been built around the Pavilion events going on the entire time before all the watchknights went nuts.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Unfortunately they're rushing it too much, the quality started to fall off in the last episode and they're starting to cut important parts out to save time and effort, and I don't think its working very well.

 

Hopefully they'll go back and re-add some missing bits later.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I think that's more of an accident of them condensing what was four weeks of events into a single episode, so Ambient dialogue (like that one) is removed because at the end of episode Marjory and Kasmeer poof, instead of hanging around at the camp until the next update hit.

I haven't finished the story yet, but I heard that the finale is actually the open world dialogue from The Nightmare Is Over update, which includes that same naked illusion dialogue. That is, from this set of dialogue

Braham Eirsson: Isn't that the investigator who caught the councillor's murderer?

Rox: Yeah, I think so. Necromancer, by the look of her.

Braham Eirsson: I think I'll go say hello.

Rox: Be careful. She seems...intense.

Braham Eirsson: Hello. I wanted to congratulate you on solving the councillor's murder.

Marjory Delaqua: My, aren't you a big boy.

Braham Eirsson: One of the biggest in my homestead, actually. I'm Braham. Pleased to meet you.

Marjory Delaqua: Well, Braham, I don't currently have any mountain-sized acquaintances, so the pleasure's all mine. You can call me Marjory.

Braham Eirsson: So, how'd you do it? Find the antitoxin, I mean.

Marjory Delaqua: It's just what I do.

Braham Eirsson: Kinda like fighting's what I do! I heard you caught the airship pirate who killed the Lion's Arch councillor too. Some...human.

Marjory Delaqua: You better say that with love, big boy.

Braham Eirsson: Oh, I like humans just fine. Well, some humans.

Marjory Delaqua: I feel the same way.

Braham Eirsson: Let me introduce you to my friend Rox.

Marjory Delaqua: Hello. I bet you two turn heads when you break through a crowd.

Rox: Funny. I was thinking the same thing about you.

Marjory Delaqua: (laugh) Well, then I'm doubly glad to meet you.

Kasmeer Meade: Hi there. I'm Kasmeer, Marjory's assistant. Are you the ones who went after Scarlet?

Braham Eirsson: Yeah. I'm Braham, and that's Rox.

Marjory Delaqua: That was you? So, what she means, but is too polite to say, is...you're the ones who let Scarlet slip through your grasp?

Rox: C'mon, Braham. We'd better go.

Marjory Delaqua: No need to fly off. I meant no offense.

is in the game, as part of Awake and Allied, but

Marjory Delaqua: How'd you get out of all that without a single smudge or tear on your dress?

Kasmeer Meade: It's not a dress. It's an illusion. You think I'd take my best dress into a place like that?

Marjory Delaqua: An illusion? You mean you're...

Kasmeer Meade: Naked. Is that a problem?

Marjory Delaqua: Noooo. Not a problem.

is not in the game, which followed shortly after.

Only disappointing part is that, as said, it's really the first sign that Marjory is into Kasmeer in such a way. Though A Moment's Peace is much more important in that regard so if they retain that I'll consider it fine. More disappointing to me that the original ending to the Tower of Nightmares arc was cut.

 

More worrisome though is Taimi's involvement in the season. As mentioned, with Twisted Marionette regulated to the sidelines, there's only two instances and two open world bits (one where she has no voiced dialogue) where Taimi is involved in the storyline of Season 1. And the first instance (A Moment's Peace) and the first open world bit (in Edge of the Mists) are critical for Taimi's character establishment - both her sibling-like connection to Braham and her own medical condition deal.

 

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

It's an interesting thing to see really, how obvious the writing at the time was based around the two week update schedule, such as this episode flashing up "two weeks later" after the one episode to state how they'd been trying to kill the tower's heart for weeks with shipments of anti-toxin.

While we are hitting the major notes of each chapter, there is little bits that are cut that fleshed out the experience more. More easily seen in some areas then others, like Clockwork chaos going straight from opening ceremony to the closing ceremony in an instant, when it had been built around the Pavilion events going on the entire time before all the watchknights went nuts.

What's funny is that such isn't really necessary to do either. It makes sense and is the easier route, but for Clockwork Chaos they could have had us do open world stuff by bringing back the Hot Air Balloon towers and the surrounding events - including the emissary escorts and queen's champions and add some of the Pavilion dialogue NPCs to the open world pavilion to interact with.

For ToN it is a bit trickier, wouldn't want to just repeat the earlier open world segment in Kessex Hills (it's a shame they didn't revive any of the events in Kessex Hills from during the ToN arc though) but if one segment focused on one thing (say, fighting offshoots or re-added events) while the other segment focused on another thing (say fighting the toxic wurm/spider/alchemist which got added with the finale portion) then it could have worked, but they also could have just removed or re-recorded that one line at the start of the instance.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:28 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I haven't finished the story yet, but I heard that the finale is actually the open world dialogue from The Nightmare Is Over update, which includes that same naked illusion dialogue. That is, from this set of dialogue

Braham Eirsson: Isn't that the investigator who caught the councillor's murderer?

Rox: Yeah, I think so. Necromancer, by the look of her.

Braham Eirsson: I think I'll go say hello.

Rox: Be careful. She seems...intense.

Braham Eirsson: Hello. I wanted to congratulate you on solving the councillor's murder.

Marjory Delaqua: My, aren't you a big boy.

Braham Eirsson: One of the biggest in my homestead, actually. I'm Braham. Pleased to meet you.

Marjory Delaqua: Well, Braham, I don't currently have any mountain-sized acquaintances, so the pleasure's all mine. You can call me Marjory.

Braham Eirsson: So, how'd you do it? Find the antitoxin, I mean.

Marjory Delaqua: It's just what I do.

Braham Eirsson: Kinda like fighting's what I do! I heard you caught the airship pirate who killed the Lion's Arch councillor too. Some...human.

Marjory Delaqua: You better say that with love, big boy.

Braham Eirsson: Oh, I like humans just fine. Well, some humans.

Marjory Delaqua: I feel the same way.

Braham Eirsson: Let me introduce you to my friend Rox.

Marjory Delaqua: Hello. I bet you two turn heads when you break through a crowd.

Rox: Funny. I was thinking the same thing about you.

Marjory Delaqua: (laugh) Well, then I'm doubly glad to meet you.

Kasmeer Meade: Hi there. I'm Kasmeer, Marjory's assistant. Are you the ones who went after Scarlet?

Braham Eirsson: Yeah. I'm Braham, and that's Rox.

Marjory Delaqua: That was you? So, what she means, but is too polite to say, is...you're the ones who let Scarlet slip through your grasp?

Rox: C'mon, Braham. We'd better go.

Marjory Delaqua: No need to fly off. I meant no offense.

is in the game, as part of Awake and Allied, but

Marjory Delaqua: How'd you get out of all that without a single smudge or tear on your dress?

Kasmeer Meade: It's not a dress. It's an illusion. You think I'd take my best dress into a place like that?

Marjory Delaqua: An illusion? You mean you're...

Kasmeer Meade: Naked. Is that a problem?

Marjory Delaqua: Noooo. Not a problem.

is not in the game, which followed shortly after.

Only disappointing part is that, as said, it's really the first sign that Marjory is into Kasmeer in such a way. Though A Moment's Peace is much more important in that regard so if they retain that I'll consider it fine. More disappointing to me that the original ending to the Tower of Nightmares arc was cut.

The first set is still ingame, but it is no longer antagonizing between the two groups. There is no more accusing Braham and Rox of letting Scarlet slip through their grasp. Overall the two groups are friendly to each other vs "Some... human" or "You let her go." So it's been slightly tweaked.

 

The latter part of the line was ambient dialogue from when Marjory and Kasmeer were hanging out in the camp post that dialogue, after a map change that had them standing by the tent (as seen in videos of the dialogue) and Braham/Rox disappeared. But after a map swap, all four are gone.

Which is why I lean into more of "removed because the aspect of them hanging out at the camp for the rest of the week/two weeks after the tower is destroyed" is no longer present, as when the chapter/episode is complete, the episode specific npc spawns go poof and the area resets to post-episode default.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The first set is still ingame, but it is no longer antagonizing between the two groups. There is no more accusing Braham and Rox of letting Scarlet slip through their grasp. Overall the two groups are friendly to each other vs "Some... human" or "You let her go." So it's been slightly tweaked.

 

The latter part of the line was ambient dialogue from when Marjory and Kasmeer were hanging out in the camp post that dialogue, after a map change that had them standing by the tent (as seen in videos of the dialogue) and Braham/Rox disappeared. But after a map swap, all four are gone.

Which is why I lean into more of "removed because the aspect of them hanging out at the camp for the rest of the week/two weeks after the tower is destroyed" is no longer present, as when the chapter/episode is complete, the episode specific npc spawns go poof and the area resets to post-episode default.

Uhm, there was no change to the map between these dialogues. It was a cyclical dialogue, and all happens in the same instance as ambient dialogue - click on the wiki link, it's all ambient open world dialogue that happened during The Nightmare Is Over / A Very Merry Wintersday release in 2013.

Braham and Rox chat, spot Marjory and Kasmeer, go up to them and talk, then walk away. While away, Rox and Braham chat, and then Marjory and Kasmeer chat (incl. the naked illusion dialogue). After that, behind Kasmeer/Marjory, you can hear Bloomanoo and Penelopee chat. Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum for 2 weeks.

It all happened in the same tent.

 

Don't believe me still, here's a video of the entire dialogue rundown. Starts with the first set, and goes through each set:

The very first time Braham and Rox show up in Kessex Hills open world is during The Nightmare Is Over, where Marjory and Kasmeer are also at the tent (I mean, they were also at the tent at the beginning of the arc, only missing for The Nightmares Within's 4 weeks).

[Kalavier.1097]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Uhm, there was no change to the map between these dialogues. It was a cyclical dialogue, and all happens in the same instance as ambient dialogue - click on the wiki link, it's all ambient open world dialogue that happened during The Nightmare Is Over / A Very Merry Wintersday release in 2013.

Braham and Rox chat, spot Marjory and Kasmeer, go up to them and talk, then walk away. While away, Rox and Braham chat, and then Marjory and Kasmeer chat (incl. the naked illusion dialogue). After that, behind Kasmeer/Marjory, you can hear Bloomanoo and Penelopee chat. Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum for 2 weeks.

It all happened in the same tent.

And in the current version, they are all around the campfire, chat once, and then poof when you change maps because episode over despawns them as native npcs for your instance.

Yes, the dialogue was tweaked but it feels more as a reduction of the ambient dialogue as there is less time spent there. You walk up as Braham is congratulating Marjory and all.  They may have extra dialogue if you stick around on the same instance, I wasn't able to hang out there.

But other ambient dialogue was also removed with the swap from waiting for the tower to open, to getting in, to waiting for it to die. Like Marjory and Kasmeer talking about what could be inside and Kasmeer going "She can't have you" briefly. A curse of these maps having variant phases now with the return I suppose.

[TeeracK.3601]

really wish they had turned the anther path and marionette into a solo story phase as well.

[TeeracK.3601]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Uhm, there was no change to the map between these dialogues. It was a cyclical dialogue, and all happens in the same instance as ambient dialogue - click on the wiki link, it's all ambient open world dialogue that happened during The Nightmare Is Over / A Very Merry Wintersday release in 2013.

Braham and Rox chat, spot Marjory and Kasmeer, go up to them and talk, then walk away. While away, Rox and Braham chat, and then Marjory and Kasmeer chat (incl. the naked illusion dialogue). After that, behind Kasmeer/Marjory, you can hear Bloomanoo and Penelopee chat. Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum for 2 weeks.

It all happened in the same tent.

 

Don't believe me still, here's a video of the entire dialogue rundown. Starts with the first set, and goes through each set:

The very first time Braham and Rox show up in Kessex Hills open world is during The Nightmare Is Over, where Marjory and Kasmeer are also at the tent (I mean, they were also at the tent at the beginning of the arc, only missing for The Nightmares Within's 4 weeks).

It would have been nice if since its in episodes now that had an achievement to talk to everyone at the end and make all this dialogue something that triggers when you click the npcs instead of just over time. Honestly played through it all and thought most of this was cut besides the lil convo of dragon's watch meeting since some characters like Bloomanoo and Penelopee werent standing in the same locations.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Yes, the dialogue was tweaked but it feels more as a reduction of the ambient dialogue as there is less time spent there.

That... was rather my point. They reduced the dialogue - also the beginning prologue and some in the middle but mostly at the end - and completely removed the original finale of the story. Which, I would like to note, is when we get our first in-game information about Scarlet's history with Beigarth and a bit of info on E. Though otherwise it was a tad bit redundant.

Which reminds me that it's a shame that ArenaNet didn't bring up the original short stories or try to implement them into the LWS1 Return at all.

2 hours ago, TeeracK.3601 said:

It would have been nice if since its in episodes now that had an achievement to talk to everyone at the end and make all this dialogue something that triggers when you click the npcs instead of just over time. Honestly played through it all and thought most of this was cut besides the lil convo of dragon's watch meeting since some characters like Bloomanoo and Penelopee werent standing in the same locations.

Interestingly they did that with Episodes 1-3 as side objective stuff, and could have definitely done that with ToN.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:00 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Uhm, there was no change to the map between these dialogues. It was a cyclical dialogue, and all happens in the same instance as ambient dialogue - click on the wiki link, it's all ambient open world dialogue that happened during The Nightmare Is Over / A Very Merry Wintersday release in 2013.

Braham and Rox chat, spot Marjory and Kasmeer, go up to them and talk, then walk away. While away, Rox and Braham chat, and then Marjory and Kasmeer chat (incl. the naked illusion dialogue). After that, behind Kasmeer/Marjory, you can hear Bloomanoo and Penelopee chat. Rinse, repeat, ad infinitum for 2 weeks.

It all happened in the same tent.

 

Don't believe me still, here's a video of the entire dialogue rundown. Starts with the first set, and goes through each set:

The very first time Braham and Rox show up in Kessex Hills open world is during The Nightmare Is Over, where Marjory and Kasmeer are also at the tent (I mean, they were also at the tent at the beginning of the arc, only missing for The Nightmares Within's 4 weeks).

honestly after watching that- its a bit cringe and melodramatic lol. The Big boys and hunk fliting with the naked dialogue and the quaggan courting was a huge contrast to the tower of nightmares. Levity is a great counter balance...I just don't think those different tones were the right ones.