October 4 Balance Update Preview

[Nalfein.2845]

As others have said, please do not proceed with changing Scrapper's gyros to ground targeted skills. This is so demoralizing. Surely there are better methods of balancing Scrapper for WvW. Changing the entire feel of the elite specialization (in all game modes) is going way, way too far.

 

Please also try to remember players who use Action Camera Mode when changing mechanics like this. This isn't just an Action Camera Mode issue, but it's heavily made worse for players who use it.

[UNOwen.7132]

2 hours ago, ImBach.9013 said:

 

Top echelons of the pvp community are talking about how deadeye is probably gonna be very dominant next patch. Thief is still there and I seriously doubt that its going anywhere. 

 

 

Deadeye dominant in a gamemode where projectile destruction and projectile reflect are super easy to access? Yeah no, it wont be.

[Bach From The Brink.2715]

25 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Deadeye dominant in a gamemode where projectile destruction and projectile reflect are super easy to access? Yeah no, it wont be.

Idk what elo you're in but its already really strong currently. Its not just me who is saying that. Literally some of the top pvpers in the community have been saying it and it just got stronger with the recent nerfs. Naru was talking about it yesterday on stream, I think. 

 

Big issue is that a lot of peeps here are giving opinions that just don't know what the meta actually is. 

[Coolster.2536]

Also, can we stop with the on-heal traits on Engi? We have so many

 

Grenadier: Lesser Grenade Barrage on heal

Cleansing Synergy: Cleanse Conditions on heal

Reconstruction Enclosure: Gain Protection on heal

Soothing Detonation: Heal on heal with Med Kit

Speed of Synergy: Superspeed on heal for Scrappers

Now Reactive Lenses will be another cleanse on heal.

 

Seems overused on Engi to me.

[Deckeredwolf.6421]

Anet... Why are you MURDERING scrappers!!!???

 

[SoulBlaze.3059]

Thank god for nerfing engineers, after the recent patch they need more of it. But why do we make revenant worse and worse when it is already the lowest class for everything?

[Ruisenior.6342]

    I'm not going to try to argue anymore on this forum. Stuff like allowing soulbeast to swap pets.... gosh ....

Time to move on from this game

[Zoser.7245]

25 minutes ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

Thank god for nerfing engineers, after the recent patch they need more of it. But why do we make revenant worse and worse when it is already the lowest class for everything?

Scrapper is not Mechanist, you don't see Scrappers often in PvE and PvP.  In WvW yes, but also Firebrands, Scourges...   

Edited September 18, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Preppy.7046]

Can we get confirmation if anet actually roams in wvw or tracks roaming in wvw?  They appear to be gutting the scrapper class identity at the altar of wvw zergs.  That seems nuts.  I have only ever seen anet tags in zergs, so maybe they just aren't used to playing or playing alongside scrappers outside of zergs?  I understand zergs are a thing when you log in at the right times, but -- that's not the be-all and end-all of wvw.  Destroying the mobile design of scrapper because of a very isolated problem in an isolated mode seems crazy to me.  If you want to delete the only place engineer really has in wvw zergs, just do that - make the gyros more selfish, whatever.  But don't convert gyros back to turrets. 😞

[Batalix.2873]

On the subject of "tradeoffs", I think especially the changes to Berserker and Druid are heading in the right direction. They probably will require further tweaking, but the motivation to mess with fundamental profession mechanics and tradeoffs is great.

 

That said, Ele still needs *more* tradeoffs. Every Ele spec is still carrying around the dead weight of twice as many weapon skills, when we really should have had at least one espec by now that traded away access to attunements for more focused abilities/builds.

 

Please consider reworking Tempest and/or Catalyst to have greater tradeoffs instead of just tacking on an Overload/F5 to an already unfocused, bloated, and uncustomizable kit. It feels BAD playing any Ele espec that isn't built to spastically rotate through four attunements, because you know that the elements you *want* to focus on are undertuned as a "versatility" tax. After ten years, an entire profession should not be this homogenous, where the three main builds across ALL especs are fresh-air four-element, fire condi, and water healer, and all due to the fact that none of the especs really change the attunement system meaningfully.

 

Using the piano playing analogy, I don't know why I am forced to carry around a full chromatic scale on literally every Ele I could possibly make if the piece (the build) I am trying to play has no accidentals. It makes some sense for Weaver, but Tempest is actually hurt by it, and Catalyst is just a confusing hybrid of the two.

 

Every other profession has instruments designed intentionally for a distinct play style: Warrior and Necro especs are especially good at making substantial, meaningful tradeoffs to their core mechanics, and even the other professions have at least one espec that swaps out the core mechanic completely (Druid/Soulbeast, Specter, Virtuoso, Mechanist, to some extent FB/WB).

[jabbathejedi.6753]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:14 PM, GuriGashi.5617 said:

Willbender and Firebrand are literal memes in PvP and didn‘t get improved at all. Firebrand is useless - Willbender has no sustain and the physical skills aren’t used in a single game mode. Why would anyone still play Guardian in PvP after October 4th

Really? Haha. Guardian and their specs are the most overpowered ones in any game mode...and easy to use. Ydk what are you talking about, lol.

[jabbathejedi.6753]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:14 PM, GuriGashi.5617 said:

Willbender and Firebrand are literal memes in PvP and didn‘t get improved at all. Firebrand is useless - Willbender has no sustain and the physical skills aren’t used in a single game mode. Why would anyone still play Guardian in PvP after October 4th

Really? Haha. Guardian and specs are the most overpowered and broken of all ones, in PvP and all game modes, and even more they're easy to play...so you want to be more op? Lol.

[Plushie Knight.4209]

I heavily dislike changing Scrapper's Gyros to be ground targeted and static. Scrapper is one of my most frequent specs to play in PvE, though I don't use it for PvP or WvW. I don't mind the balance changes for those gamemodes, but I'm specifically upset about the change to Gyros. It feels like it's just taking away a unique trait of Scrappers and Engineers, and I don't understand why that change would be made.

[SoulBlaze.3059]

2 minutes ago, Plushie Knight.4209 said:

I heavily dislike changing Scrapper's Gyros to be ground targeted and static. Scrapper is one of my most frequent specs to play in PvE, though I don't use it for PvP or WvW. I don't mind the balance changes for those gamemodes, but I'm specifically upset about the change to Gyros. It feels like it's just taking away a unique trait of Scrappers and Engineers, and I don't understand why that change would be made.

They entire engineer class needs to be toned down a bit, they have received too much love recently. Revenant as a whole on the other hand is pointless to play and has been for a long time due to someone doing the job of your spec better on every front, so welcome to the team.

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

They entire engineer class needs to be toned down a bit, they have received too much love recently. Revenant as a whole on the other hand is pointless to play and has been for a long time due to someone doing the job of your spec better on every front, so welcome to the team.

If we allow poor balance for the classes we hate, it will eventually effect the classes we love. 

Necro / Rev / Guard has been the holy trinity in every game mode for how long?

Alacrigade / Firebrand / Scourge during PoF

Core support guard / Power Herald / whichever flavor of necro is strongest  In PvP

WvW is the only place where Rev hasn't had the best luck in Zergs because Anet have no clue what they're doing with hammer, but it sits nicely as a solid roamer. Meanwhile the classic Firebrand support + Boonstrip scourge still reigns supereme. 

 

What is the history of Engi's dominance in the meta? 

Scrapper in WvW zergs. 

Holo in PvP. (though it has come and gone)

The very recent addition of Mech in PvE. 

Engi has held a solid spot in competetive modes, but PvE is where it has fallen flat for the majority of its lifespan. 

Holo was a good DPS, but other classes outclassed it. Soulbeast had spirits and OWP. DH had similar damage, but much better burst so it was preferred over it. Firebrand would regularly out dps other dps while bringing massive utility. 

Scourge was the original power mech because it did its damage very reliably from range with an easy rotation (while providing support). 

And Scrapper was largely irrelevant in PvE until it got quickness. And afterwards it was still outclassed by firebrand in every way, so it didn't see much play.

This makes these nerfs sting especially for PvP and and PvE because Scrapper has historically not been a great pick in either. Minus a few blips of meta relevance here and there which were quickly followed by a rework of some sort. 

 

Historically, Revenant has fared better taking all game modes into account, as it's been decent or great everywhere while Engineer has really struggled to break into the meta outside of competitive modes. (Aka the forgotten game modes.)

Implying Engi has had it much better than revenant  for a long time is untrue considering the history of both. They've both been strong in competetive play, but Revenant has been miles ahead in PvE in terms of meta relevance. 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Donari.5237]

I am sad about the Scrapper losing mobility with the gyros.  Stealth Gyro has been how I keep gathering wood in Orr for legendaries serene.  I can stealth before I get near the mobs hanging out at the tree, then run up, harvest, and run off.  My Daredevil used to be second best at that, but since they've removed the ability to get stealth by using Steal, he's usually only halfway through chopping before he decloaks and gets tagged into combat.

Maybe if you're going to take away all methods of stealthing for longer than three seconds, you can lower the amount of elder wood and mithril needed for pre-Aurene legendaries by a vast amount?  *bats eyes* (Joking -- I fully understand that mats gathering is not important to balance concerns!)

[Rafocale.5270]

I absolutely hate the idea of changing gyro's to ground targeted abilities, I know scrapper was kinda OP in WvW but this is honestly gonna kill it for me in PvE. I really hope you guys rethink this particular change.

[Falseprophet.1502]

Can we get some communication on what the direction is for Guardian OUTSIDE of Firebrand? I'm honestly so sick of all the Firebrand attention when three out of the four specs are suffering hard.

[Vegeta.2563]

So you gain superspeed on wells on use instead of on final pulse, ok that's fine.

What about Sneak Gyro's stealth?  You have to stand in that to stay stealth and lose it when you leave.

Sounds pointless to use.

[Song of Eternity.8613]

Please fix pDPS DH and make it a viable again for instanced content again. Not sure why Anet is so reluctant to fix DH.

[Xzygy.1452]

If you read nothing else, I want you to read this:  You need to fix tagging in WvW.  When I'm dps, I could pull like 100ish bags a night from WvW easy.  That same kind of night, I could pull 60ish on my scrapper.  35ish on my FB, unless I put my party at risk to intentionally tag enemies.  It is to the point where I donate my bags now when I run dps.  I realize this isn't necessarily gamebreaking, but it feels unrewarding for some of the most valued members of our group.

 

I play support primarily in WvW, but have recently branched out into dps herald.  I run as often as I can in organized groups usually more than 20 people and I do play scapper and firebrand regularly.  I don't at all like the gyro change, as it changes the feel/identity of the scrapper unnecessarily, and I don't think you're going to get what you want out of that.  I love my elementalist, though, and I really want that to work.  Here's where I think the problems are:

 

Scrapper's role in the group is cleanses primarily, some superspeed, and healing.  Scrapper is objectively better at cleansing, healing, and superspeed, and the stealth gyro secures their spot as mandatory in every group.  Granted, the data we have access to isn't perfect, but with arcdps healing statistics, it looks like from a healing standpoint, I could not find a healing build on my tempest that could keep up with the engi during organized play, and it wasn't close.  In the same fights, where I was putting up roughly 2k-3k hps, the engi was putting out 3.5k-5k.  The engineer I tested with is someone of an approximately similar skill level to myself.  I was able to put up similar numbers on condi cleanse, but my cleanses do not convert to boons, which makes me objectively worse and potentially a liability.  I do bring some cc as a tempest, but hammer 5 scrapper is more than adequate.

 

Your changes to throughput make sense to me, as they will tone down the numbers across the board, which might make room for more diverse gameplay, but Scrapper is the way that it is because it's design is very effective for the role it is filling.  I only have limited experience with the other classes you mentioned in a support capacity, but Tempest is not designed with this kind of focus.  It seems like tempest brings many divergent things to the table, which come at the cost of the core reasons it is being brought to the group.  I would look at those things to trim from Tempest so that you can improve the spec.  IMO, you're going to have to take away scrapper condi to boon conversion or provide tempest and others with this option. It's too powerful and devalues boon rip/conversion.

 

The other part of this is how well FB and Scrapper work together.  Maybe it would be a good idea to leave that buddy pair working well together and bring in something like Warrior or Rev as a reliable stability/aegis healer, and give it a smoke field to blast for stealth?  I.e. create the synergies between tempest and another class, such that the combo could rival engi/fb.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

Hey Guys,

first of all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us in the stream and with this pre-draft of the patchnotes.

Glad you started this new era of balancing and hope to see further improvements along the way to make the game more balanced and fun.

As a single character player (which seems very rare actually) i have to say that the changes on thief feel a bit lackluster. 

the adjustment of specters shroud in every gamemode seems somekind of understandable and as you habe mentioned you will take a deeper look after this change.

the other changes made to the core traits in combination with not addressing the long lasting issues of thiefs regardless the playmode in general unfortunately make the impression of „just tick it of the checklist“ 

I assume you just didn’t had the time to address them at this stage and stuff like

• the acro trait line itself

• making preparedness baseline (or remove it and rebalance the initiative costs)

• dagger mainhand still questioning itself if it should be power or condi

• somewhat locking power damage by default into CS and DArts

are on your list for the next update.

Again thanks for your work and keep going!

 

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Felices Bladewing.3914
better wording

[the krytan assassin.9235]

As someone who has been complaining for a long time about the status of scrapper: defense field, stealth gyro and purge gyro definitely needed a big nerf in WvW. I wouldn't mind if the scrappers kept their moving gyros aslong as they severely nerfed the skills.

Purge gyro should be fine on 3 condi cleanse, defense field should have 40 sec cd 3 sec shield duration with a maximum of 10 projectile blocks, stealth gyros should have a cd increased to atleast 75 sec and duration decreased abit. 

Honestly both gyro "wells" and gyro nerfs would've resulted in a massive protest from the engi community since they've gotten used to being basically the WvW Gods for the last couple years. Scrapper is still in a very good position in wvw post nerfs. They have the monopoly on superspeed and condi->boon conversion (both still deserve a big nerf) and still have access to stability, projectile blocks, low cd group stealth etc. 

I dont understand why Anet would want to change gyros to 'wells' outside of WvW, no need to nerf something that is not broken to begin with. 

[UNOwen.7132]

4 hours ago, ImBach.9013 said:

Idk what elo you're in but its already really strong currently. Its not just me who is saying that. Literally some of the top pvpers in the community have been saying it and it just got stronger with the recent nerfs. Naru was talking about it yesterday on stream, I think. 

 

Big issue is that a lot of peeps here are giving opinions that just don't know what the meta actually is. 

Its "strong" in the way that its the second-best thief build. In a gamemode that naturally favours thief. But strong as in has potential to be dominant? Nah. Itll just be the new D/P Thief at best, a 1-of per team, if even that. Its good at +1s, rubbish in teamfight, rubbish in 1v1s. 

[Hidden.5946]

Great changes to condi rev. Right on the money.