Story direction is a little...political/ideological (spoilers) - returning player

[Mykhel.6532]

3 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

We don’t know the exact amounts, yes Mordremoth got Zhaitan’s magic but so did Kralkatorrik, so did Jormag, Primordus, they all got Zhaitan’s magic. It also to went to Soo-Won, but was taken out via Jade tech.

You're proving my point.  If he got a larger amount in ANY way, the balance was tipped in his favor. The dragon balance means they all had equal power. They didn't when Zhaitan died. Mordremoth took the majority. That's why his orb consumed the all with vines.

[Tyson.5160]

28 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

You're proving my point.  If he got a larger amount in ANY way, the balance was tipped in his favor. The dragon balance means they all had equal power. They didn't when Zhaitan died. Mordremoth took the majority. That's why his orb consumed the all with vines.

Zhaitan’s orb entering Tyria orb was his magic entering the ley lines, thus causing the collapse of the balance and fast tracking the dragons becoming more powerful and dangerous. 
 

It makes absolutely no sense on why Mordremoth’s orb entered the Tyria orb unless he died and at the time he hadn’t yet. At this stage of the story, only Zhaitan died.

[Mykhel.6532]

6 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

It makes absolutely no sense on why Mordremoth’s orb entered the Tyria orb unless he died and at the time he hadn’t yet. At this stage of the story, only Zhaitan died.

Wrong. It makes perfect sense. No orb was ever meant to enter the center. Mordremoths entering showed his dominance... which is the whole kitten reason the pact targeted him and why ALL OF TYRIA began sprouting vines. His expansion LITERALLY altered several zones across Tyria as a result. It was the ENTIRE premise of Heart of Thorns. Go look at "The Dragon's Reach pt. 2 description. The very last line says this: "It's my mission to decipher the vision and stop the dragon before it consumes everything." This is literally a DIRECT reference to MORDREMOTH entering the orb and the vines consume the all.

You are wrong.

[Tyson.5160]

43 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Wrong. It makes perfect sense. No orb was ever meant to enter the center. Mordremoths entering showed his dominance... which is the whole kitten reason the pact targeted him and why ALL OF TYRIA began sprouting vines. His expansion LITERALLY altered several zones across Tyria as a result. It was the ENTIRE premise of Heart of Thorns. Go look at "The Dragon's Reach pt. 2 description. The very last line says this: "It's my mission to decipher the vision and stop the dragon before it consumes everything." This is literally a DIRECT reference to MORDREMOTH entering the orb and the vines consume the all.

You are wrong.

The line that says it’s my mission to decipher the vision and stop the dragon are two separate things. At the time we did not know that Zhaitan’s magic had gone back into Tyria. We had hints such as Tequatl Rising but nothing concrete. During that episode we did not know that the other dragon could use the other dragon magics.

 

I get your passion with this interpretation, but It’s not representing what you think it is.

[Tyson.5160]

2 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

 

Edit: AND Soo-Won was 2nd in the vision, but she clearly states in EoD that she woke up right after Zhaitan did. Sorry, but you're making this up. Gonna need way more evidence than "The Durmond Priory picture says so..." when you, as the player SAW the ALL yourself.

To quote Kuunavang:

 

“ I felt it when she woke. All those of the sea did—a presence powerful enough to drive back the shadows in the depths.

Kuunavang: But it was not until Zhaitan that I sought her out. An act of desperation to save what was left of a land I loved.”

 

So this shows that Soo-Won was awake before Zhaitan and it was until Zhaitan woke up and caused the Tsunami that Kuunavang sought her out. There is also the order of the dragons being lit up in the machine vision, which is again mirrored in the order of minions showing up the City of Hope. Play the episode and tell me what order the minions show up in. 

[Mykhel.6532]

37 minutes ago, Tyson.5160 said:

“ I felt it when she woke. All those of the sea did—a presence powerful enough to drive back the shadows in the depths.

Kuunavang: But it was not until Zhaitan that I sought her out. An act of desperation to save what was left of a land I loved.”

Pure speculation. Even the Wiki speculates. This is the use of ad hoc characters to retcon established lore. It's liek you don't even realize how easy it is to use new characters to try and squeeze lore in for fixes and crap... it's crazy obvious and you're defending it. I'm done with this conversation. You're not changing my mind

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mykhel.6532

[Ghost Prince.9645]

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

2. There were no relationships in the players story--at all-- prior to Marjory and Kasmeer; hetero or otherwise.

There are multiple Sylvari NPCs shown to have relationships, both hetero and gay, during the Sylvari player story.

And Caithe's relationship with Faolain was a big focus of the Twilight Arbor story, so it's not even Sylvari player exclusive.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Maiden of Ghosts.2736

[Mykhel.6532]

Just now, Maiden of Ghosts.2736 said:

There are multiple Sylvari NPCs shown to have relationships, both hetero and gay, during the Sylvari player story.

And Caithe's relationship with Faolain was a big focus of the Twilight Arbor story, so it's not even Sylvari player exclusive.

Please read what I write. I said relationships in OUR story that we FOLLOW. I don't give a crap about random NPC relationships.

[Mykhel.6532]

3 minutes ago, Maiden of Ghosts.2736 said:

And Caithe's relationship with Faolain was a big focus of the Twilight Arbor story, so it's not even Sylvari player exclusive

And no. Sylvari were brand new. The firstborn had no point of reference with relationships. Caithe and Faolain were similar to sisters. I've read the books. It's a very complicated and almost innocent relationship.

[Ghost Prince.9645]

1 minute ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Please read what I write. I said relationships in OUR story that we FOLLOW. I don't give a crap about random NPC relationships.

Even if you don't consider the race specific personal story to be part of the player's story (which is cherry-picking at its finest imo), as I said, Caithe's relationship with Faolain is still present in the overarching personal story.

4 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

And no. Sylvari were brand new. The firstborn had no point of reference with relationships. Caithe and Faolain were similar to sisters. I've read the books. It's a very complicated and almost innocent relationship.

Riiiiight.... Anyway the wiki has the line "Over time, they established a deep bond and became lovers.", so I think you need to do a re-read of the books.

[Mykhel.6532]

Just now, Maiden of Ghosts.2736 said:

Even if you don't consider the race specific personal story to be part of the player's story (which is cherry-picking at its finest imo), as I said, Caithe's relationship with Faolain is still present in the overarching personal story

I don't care what you think of it. It's my opinion... because only the relationship that your character can interact with and see grow is theirs.

 

2 minutes ago, Maiden of Ghosts.2736 said:

Riiiiight.... Anyway the wiki has the line "Over time, they established a deep bond and became lovers.", so I think you need to do a re-read of the books.

Read Destiny's Edge. I don't care what the Wiki says. The wiki is so incredibly mismanaged these days, it's insane. Believe what you want.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

11 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

In the human personal story, the poor person path is essentially helping the law enforcement take down a violent gang who want to do terrorism for no apparent reason. This is within a class stratified city ruled by a queen (with some analog to a president, apparently she has some kind of ministers system too) and a secret police force (shining blade), as well as a not-secret police force (the seraph). The most representation the poor get, in other words, is doing senseless violence and helping law enforcement stop senseless violence. I doubt the writers saw it this way consciously (it's a lot like the plot of Batman Begins in broad strokes, so it's possible it was just inspired by other US media) but ultimately, what it comes out to is political messaging that says: "class stratified society is perfectly fine, and poor people are only good people if they work with cops to take down other poor people and otherwise are violent people who want to cause chaos." And you can draw a direct line there to the framework of a society like the US or UK.

And whether everyone will agree with that read of that particular plot thread in GW2 or not, the analog to modern society is undeniable. There is nothing substantively defined enough in its writing to distinguish it from modern society as something with vastly different conditions and structure.

 Or perhaps they intended Krayta to resemble a late Medieval/Renaissance kingdom and included this stratified society element to be more accurate to the source material, and perhaps as such any resemblance to modern society (particularly modern society 10 plus years ago) is in this specific regards is either incidental...or imagined.

And perhaps that's still political.  Debatable, but even if so its still better than whats become the norm now: giant companies making  judgements on regular people living today, making judgements on their paying customers, judgements that are some ninety odd percent of the time utterly kitten kitten.

[Mykhel.6532]

49 minutes ago, Maiden of Ghosts.2736 said:

Riiiiight.... Anyway the wiki has the line "Over time, they established a deep bond and became lovers.", so I think you need to do a re-read of the books

I'll correct this. I was wrong. Caithe lied to Destiny's Edge about her relationship saying they were just close only to be discovered later as lovers. I'll concede that point, but it doesn't negate the fact that you do not get to see any of this relationship. The only relationship that is present to the player throughout the story is Marjory and Kasmeer. In addition, it was stated early in the lore that Sylvari had no established societal norms. Any relationship was acceptable since Sylvari don't reproduce in the same way as the other races. Here's one of the original messages about this topic. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/17543-arenanet-the-sylvari-soul-–-angel-mccoy-on-writing-the-sylvari/page__st__30

Edited October 9, 2022 by Mykhel.6532
Link

[Teratus.2859]

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Is she a god or not? The "new" lore is that she created everything on Tyria. She foresaw her children's deaths. She didn't see that it would be by the hands of the life that resulted? This concept makes no sense whatsoever.

As I understand it she created Tyria but not the lifeforms that would come to inhabit it.

Simple fact is we do not know the origins of any mortal species that resides on Tyria with some exceptions to Humans which are in every sense of the word... Aliens to Tyria.

Virtually all the races we know of today, Charr, Asura, Skritt etc came into existence after the last Dragon cycle.
While a few specific ones most of which are extinct now or missing from the world, Jotuns, Mursaat, Seers, Forgotten existed during the previous one but did not exist for the one before it to my knowledge so they came into existence at some point before the previous cycle.

If Soo Won did create mortals it would have been tens of thousands of years ago and no evidence of the mortal species she created is left in the world.
And there is no evidence to my knowledge that Soo Won is the one responsible for "repopulating" Tyria with new Mortal species after a Dragon Cycle completes.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

But WHY!? We literally have gone from not knowing (and frankly, not needing to know) the true story of the creation of Tyria, to its creation being a result of loneliness...with the "god" that created it all, knowing the incredible suffering that her children would cause. We get no explanation on how a water dragon was able to produce offspring of other elements, how she was able to "draw" from the void, why the void didn't crush her or her children at the start since there was no balance to "push it back," or why she and void exist in the first place...

We do know some of those answers.

Firstly she isn't a "Water Dragon", Soo Won took the domain of Water for herself when she divided up the Void.

Her Children were likely created and not birthed from an egg or something.
It stands to reason that if Soo Won could reproduce alone like Glint and assumingly Kralkatorrik could then she would never have had the need to divide the Void in the first place to cure her loneliness issue.

I would think she lacked that ability which is why she broke up the void, likely using the magic she gained from it to create her children from the individual domains.. that would certainly explain why every domain had it's own dragon and why there were no more or less than the exact amount of Dragons needed for each magical domain.

I am not sure if she Drew from the void.. or Consumed it.. but following what we know about dragons i'd say the latter is likely as we know Dragons consume and absorb magic.
I speculate that originally she consumed the void to get the power she needed to create which is likely also how she knew she could not handle all that power alone and that's why she had to divide it up into multiple domains and share the load by creating her children to manage the others.

As for the void, it had no consciousness in the past, it was nothing but chaotic primal magic in it's true natural form.
It could not fight back in any way other than it's own natural push to be in it's natural state.
What we encounter in End of Dragons is The Dragonvoid, this is a consciousness entity with it's own will.. this is the void with a consciousness mind that was created and evolved over thousands of years from the Elder Dragons as their Torment.
When we killed an Elder Dragon this consciousness.. the Dragonvoid was part of the energy the magic that exploded out and was absorbed by the other Dragons, further corrupting them and with every dragon evolving into a more conscious and more powerful entity.

By End of Dragons the Dravonvoid possessed the abilities, intelligence and power of every dead Elder Dragon and Soo Won.
It was an entity that we unknowingly released onto the world when We first Killed Zhaitan, and further empowered with every Elder Dragon we killed throughout our adventure in Gw2.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

No. That is the concept of a god... you CANNOT put yourself into their shoes. It's exactly why trying to humanize a god is a ridiculous venture and why the human gods story line made sense. They were quite IMPERFECT because they weren't real gods. In fact, now that I think of it... I would be pretty disheartened knowing that the being that created everything is now dead. Pretty pathetic gods on Tyria. Ugh. It's seriously so disappointing.

Never meet your Heroes 😛

Works for Gods too.

While you can't put yourself in the shoes of an all powerful God.. you can put yourself in the shoes of a single being trapped eternally in a void in absolute solitude.. knowing there is a way out of it if you're willing to accept the consequences for taking it.

Real humans.. well most of them at least are very social animals, they do not function well in solitary situations.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This can just as easily be described as "We didn't have anywhere else to go so we wrote it this way." I do not believe this was the original direction of what the void was... The corruption was originally the conflicting of dragon power. Kralkatorrik even talked about how the energy warred within him, causing untold pain in the final scenes of his story in LWS4. He mentioned nothing of the void... and again I bring up how he was able to speak and show affection to Aurene when he was literally created as a "mindless tool." In addition, why did Soo-Won make them able to reproduce? What did they reproduce with? does that mean Soo-Won mated with an unseen dragon? It's bad writing.

I doubt they had the void concept in mind back then, this was just an evolution of the writing a way to merge things together.

The Void concept probably came around somewhere in Season 4 or maybe PoF but probably didn't get finalized in the hows and whys until early IBS.
But i'm speculating there, I don't know for sure only Anet does.

As i said before though the dragons probably were mindeless upon creation and like all offspring including humans, developed over the years they were alive.
It's clear that the dragons we know all had some level of intelligence to them.. even Primordus who was the most mindless of them still had some evidence of a basic level intelligence.

As far as reproduction goes it's well known that dragons in the Gw2 universe are all non binery beings.
They reproduce solo no need for a partner and as far as we know they all produce eggs.

That said Glint is the only Dragon we've observed this capability with though, we do not know the specifics of Glint's birth/creation nor do we know if Aurene possess this ability either.

Another interesting thing of note though are the origins of Skyscales.
Skyscales were born from the mists thanks to Kralktorrik and Aurene's actions there.. we don't know how or why they came into existence only that they did which is the only instance in the franchise of a Lesser Dragon species creation being observed and documented.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

It's ridiculous what you're asking here. You're asking a naturally mortal being, playing a mortal character (conceptually), to understand plights from an immortal being. Don't you understand how stupid this is from a writing standpoint? Not only can we not understand or even relate to what this is, but you are asking me to sympathize and/or justify the mass murder of billions of Tyrians because "she was lonely, bro." Insane.

I'm asking a naturally mortal being, playing a fictional mortal character in a world created by naturally mortal beings to try an understand a fictional scenario of being in an endless void for all time all alone.. and what they would do if there was a way out that came with horrible consequences.

It's really not a hard thing to think about.
Again I advise watching the movie Passengers, that provides a similar dilemma and scenario in it's story.
Do I accept my fate.. live my life in misery and solitude or do I ruin another's life so I don't have to be alone anymore..
It's a great movie.. highly recommend ^^

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This makes NO sense. She existed with the void before her children existed. How did she combat the void then? How was she able to create and grow 5 children in the midst of the void before they had the ability to do so? you have no answer for this, because there isn't one. It's bad writing.

That's a chicken and egg scenario.. or God and universe scenario... Who Created God? 
You know what i'm getting at there.

As I said above though I expect she created her Children during the same process that involved creating Tyria and spitting the domains.
Everything happened more or less as once giant act of creation not a long process of we need this I make this next kinda thing.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Dude... stop acting like our characters are the bad guys for fighting for their friends and family's lives.

I'm not, and that's not what I was implying.

I'm just explaining to you things are not so black and white and our actions regardless of our reasons and intent had consequences. 

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

There's no evidence of this statement prior to EoD.

Irrelevant, that's how it was written in EoD to connect them.
Doesn't matter that we didn't know the truth of it then, we do know now and that's the direction the writers took to tie it together.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Incorrect. Zhaitain is depicted as a blemished white/black orb. The vision is in a cutscene with "The Machine" Living world question. The vision shows Mordremoth (Green orb) consuming the other dragons as a result of him becoming too strong.

Sorry dude you're wrong here.

The Dark Green orb is a colour usually associated with Death and Necromancy represents Zhaitan, this is the one clashing with the central orb which represents Tyria.
This is depicting Zhaitans magic being unleashed unto the world upon his death and disturbing the balance.

The lighter Green Orb, the last to awaken in the sequence is Mordremoth's Orb.

You can find this information on the Wiki as well in the same link Tyson shared.

Mordremoth becoming "too strong" also doesn't make much sense since Mordremoth was asleep when Zhaitan died and other Dragons were much closer to Orr than Mordremoth was.
Mordrmeoth was woken in LWS1, and the main reason he became a primary threat is because he became the most active Dragon, not because he was the most powerful.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This is wrong. Taimi created her machine to subdue Primordus. Balthazar repurposed it to drain the dragon's power. I literally just redid the quest line the other day.

Sorry dude that's wrong.
Taimi's machine was specifically designed to destroy both Jormag and Primordus at the same time by manipulating their energy in the All.

We pulled the plug on that plan after Taimi realized the consequences would be catastrophic, that's why we had to destroy it when Balthazar stole it and tried to kill them both anyway.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This contradicts what Soo-Won said her children were.

Were when they were created.

We know for a fact that the Dragons were not Mindless when we went up against them.
Jormag herself clearly stated her intentions for Primordus and her frustration at being bound to him.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Again, this makes no sense. What made Primordus different from the other Dragons? Why did Jormag need to be free? What "bound" them? These are huge events with little to no explanation...

It was largely covered in the Ice Brood Saga.

They were bound because they were Twins and of opposing elements.
Jormag wanted to be free from the balance because she hated being linked to a being that was her complete opposite and her only weakness.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

NO! How are you viewing it this way? We RESPOND to the problems being caused! Name 1 thing we CAUSED in Cantha. Meaning, our character's actions had a direct consequence on Cantha that was not caused by the actions of another character.

We killed the Elder Dragons,  thus causing the Void outbreak in the first place.
We brought Aurene to Cantha resulting in her power being stolen and used to destroy the Canthan Reactor effectively destroying their way of life.

Yes we respond to problems but that doesn't mean our decisions are not at least in some part responsible for some of them.
Collateral damage, is the word I'm looking for.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

This is incorrect as well. We literally go through their legal system multiple times to go about it the right way. The Canthans that assist us in the story are literally the ones who either go lawless themselves (Minister Yi and Joon), or assist us in breaking the laws (Detective Hama). I'm sorry, please provide an example if you think I'm wrong.

The entire EoD storyline disagrees with you. Please provide me an example where our character or someone from our group BLATANTLY disregarded the laws/rules of an established country.

Yes, that's true but it in no way changes the fact that we go against the law in that situation in order to prove ourselves innocent.

We were wanted criminals after the reactor incident and we did flee from a crime scene and resist arrest.
Even if we were innocent of the original accusation, those two actions were and are still crimes.. and they only made us look guilty.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Is giving someone eternal life not a good intention? Can you be evil but still do something good?

When that eternal life comes with enslavement then hell no it's not a good intention lol.

But yes it's possible for evil people to do good things, even if their intentions are entirely self serving.

"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions", probably an apt thing to drop here as well since it goes both ways.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

You have a warped view of reality, my friend. We "decided to trap him and attack him instead of talk to him?" You mean the god who was using Lyssa's mirror to disguise himself as Lazarus, of which we didn't know until we trapped him and broke the mirror? Which then proceeded to destroy the lab, steal the machine, and threaten us with death if we pursued him. Yeah, I can really see where we had the time to sit down and talk to Balthazar. It was probably because we didn't offer him tea.

Agree or not he was playing ball with us until that point, even if he had his own agenda.

We took the first move against him, even if we had good reason to we still struck first.
We didn't even try the diplomatic approach after learning that Lazarus wasn't who he said he was.
We just trapped him, attacked him and then learned we had literally picked a fight with a God.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Dude... almost every story event in PoF leading up to Kralk had our character or others trying to reason with Balthazar and tell him about the destruction of the dragons. Did you even play Path of Fire?

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we struck first and pleaded later.

We attacked a God of War.. there was no going back from that.
Balthazar is neither forgiving nor merciful, what little chance there was for diplomacy was destroyed the second we attacked him.

22 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

You mean we had no effing choice but to kill them. You either stop them by all means necessary or you and millions of others die. In no way is that the same thing.

Stopping and killing are two different things.

Sometimes killing is unavoidable but not always, plenty of enemies turned allies prove that.
For most enemies we don't even attempt to capture them, they're on the bad faction so they're all fair game.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[Kalavier.1097]

Honestly, the whole aspect of "Knowing they'd cause suffering" or such is... an interesting but weird idea.

As she never had any real connection to mortal races, and seemed to react to save Cantha based on another dragon's plead, not the plight of the people.

Like how Jormag was described as not caring what the Svanir cult did, as they were ants to it. It's even brought up with Vlast, how his growing up in isolation made him resent the duty Glint had placed upon him, and he fought the branded out of revenge for her death more then actually wishing to truly protect mortals. Aurene grew up connected to mortals, surrounded by them, and thus cared about the damage and danger.

[Teratus.2859]

10 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Honestly, the whole aspect of "Knowing they'd cause suffering" or such is... an interesting but weird idea.

As she never had any real connection to mortal races, and seemed to react to save Cantha based on another dragon's plead, not the plight of the people.

Like how Jormag was described as not caring what the Svanir cult did, as they were ants to it. It's even brought up with Vlast, how his growing up in isolation made him resent the duty Glint had placed upon him, and he fought the branded out of revenge for her death more then actually wishing to truly protect mortals. Aurene grew up connected to mortals, surrounded by them, and thus cared about the damage and danger.

All good points.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

There's no IBS in Ba Sing Se.

[Mykhel.6532]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Firstly she isn't a "Water Dragon", Soo Won took the domain of Water for herself when she divided up the Void.

Still doesn't make sense. How was she able to take a domain from the void if she couldn't resist it now?

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Her Children were likely created and not birthed from an egg or something

Which is the exact opposite for Aurene. Doesn't make sense.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I speculate that originally she consumed the void to get the power she needed to create which is likely also how she knew she could not handle all that power alone and that's why she had to divide it up into multiple domains and share the load by creating her children to manage the others.

But it didn't corrupt her then...only now? Ok...

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

What we encounter in End of Dragons is The Dragonvoid, this is a consciousness entity with it's own will.. this is the void with a consciousness mind that was created and evolved over thousands of years from the Elder Dragons as their Torment.

Now somehow "Nothing," the void, is evolving... right...

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

While you can't put yourself in the shoes of an all powerful God.. you can put yourself in the shoes of a single being trapped eternally in a void in absolute solitude..

No. You can't. When you say "Eternally," you cannot relate.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

It's really not a hard thing to think about.

Yes, it is. You are a mortal being that cannot grasp the concept of eternal life.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I doubt they had the void concept in mind back then, this was just an evolution of the writing a way to merge things together.

Finally. Something we can agree on. This definitely was not the original direction of the writing.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

As far as reproduction goes it's well known that dragons in the Gw2 universe are all non binery beings.

"Well-known?" No it isn't.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

They reproduce solo no need for a partner and as far as we know they all produce eggs.

Where? Where the hell does it say this?

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Again I advise watching the movie Passengers, that provides a similar dilemma and scenario in it's story.
Do I accept my fate.. live my life in misery and solitude or do I ruin another's life so I don't have to be alone anymore..
It's a great movie.. highly recommend

I've seen it. It's a good movie... but Chris Pratt's character is a monster. He condemned her to death before reaching her destination because he become obsessed. It is a similar concept. They painted a good ending on it, but I can assure you it wouldn't have been a good ending.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Sorry dude that's wrong.
Taimi's machine was specifically designed to destroy both Jormag and Primordus at the same time by manipulating their energy in the All.

Yup. You're right. I was confusing it with the Dwarven machine in Ember Bay.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Collateral damage, is the word I'm looking for.

Consequential or collateral damage from a result that would've been 100x worse if the other end played out is NOT the fault of the heroes. If you seriously view it the other way, we have nothing to talk about and I would advise you to take a good, hard look at your morality in this world. That's like saying someone comes into a neighbor's home with a gun, they have a gun in their house, they kill the intruder and you think the neighbor should be charged with murder because "well, I mean there's consequences for killing someone." Insane.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

They were bound because they were Twins and of opposing elements.

Twins? Lol. What a joke. The same could've been said about Soo-Won/Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Water/Lightning and Life/Death. Yet nothing is ever mentioned about being "bound" to the other half. It's bad writing.

 

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yes, that's true but it in no way changes the fact that we go against the law in that situation in order to prove ourselves innocent.

And? All that did was show the Canthans part of their justice system was seriously flawed.

 

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

We were wanted criminals after the reactor incident and we did flee from a crime scene and resist arrest.

I really didn't like this spin on the story. Very disjointed and out of place.

 

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

When that eternal life comes with enslavement then hell no it's not a good intention lol.

Exactly my point. Some would disagree with you and I though... What if that person was  so terrified to die, they would rather work as a slave but stay alive? I'm saying it's not impossible for good intentions to exist within the concept.

 

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Agree or not he was playing ball with us until that point, even if he had his own agenda.

Playing ball and waiting for a moment to steal Taimi's machine are the same thing. Sorry, you're not going to convince me otherwise on this.

 

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we struck first and pleaded later.

Again, your view on reality is twisted. You say "Struck" but all the mirrors did was trap him. It trapped him so they could identify and then talk. It's ridiculous to think we were anywhere in the wrong in that scenario. I'll say this, I'd never want you on my team if that's the case.

 

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Balthazar is neither forgiving nor merciful, what little chance there was for diplomacy was destroyed the second we attacked him.

No. There was no chance for diplomacy. Period. It's literally the reason the other gods trapped him in the mists.

[Tyson.5160]

12 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Pure speculation. Even the Wiki speculates. This is the use of ad hoc characters to retcon established lore. It's liek you don't even realize how easy it is to use new characters to try and squeeze lore in for fixes and crap... it's crazy obvious and you're defending it. I'm done with this conversation. You're not changing my mind

I’m providing evidence that is from the game as in the very expansion that you claim Soo-Won said she woke up after Zhaitan, (which you still haven’t sourced yet btw).
 

You have been provided evidence by myself and others regarding the dragon diagram, the order from which the dragon awakening including the vision, as well as this same pattern showing up in Heart of Thorns missions and yet you still continue to argue, making me realize that you don’t have a firm grasp on the lore in this game. You have made countless mistakes in the posts above.

 

You are cherry picking what lore you are choosing to follow and frankly there no point in having a discussion with you.

[Mykhel.6532]

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

I’m providing evidence that is from the game as in the very expansion that you claim Soo-Won said she woke up after Zhaitan, (which you still haven’t sourced yet btw).

It's irrelevant. I don't care what order they woke up in. It literally doesn't matter to the point I made in that Mordremoth is dark green, entered the center to consume Tyria. A diagram that the Priory made up, never once viewing The All vs. your character seeing The All in person...I know which one I'm believing.

 

2 hours ago, Tyson.5160 said:

You are cherry picking what lore you are choosing to follow and frankly there no point in having a discussion with you.

Cool. I think the same of you. See ya.

[Tyson.5160]

7 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

 

Sorry dude you're wrong here.

The Dark Green orb is a colour usually associated with Death and Necromancy represents Zhaitan, this is the one clashing with the central orb which represents Tyria.
This is depicting Zhaitans magic being unleashed unto the world upon his death and disturbing the balance.

The lighter Green Orb, the last to awaken in the sequence is Mordremoth's Orb.

You can find this information on the Wiki as well in the same link Tyson shared.

Mordremoth becoming "too strong" also doesn't make much sense since Mordremoth was asleep when Zhaitan died and other Dragons were much closer to Orr than Mordremoth was.
Mordrmeoth was woken in LWS1, and the main reason he became a primary threat is because he became the most active Dragon, not because he was the most powerful.

 

 

100% agree.

[Teratus.2859]

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Still doesn't make sense. How was she able to take a domain from the void if she couldn't resist it now?

Well I don't know the science of it.. that's never specifically detailed but she fragmented the void into the several individual domains of magic and somehow attached those domains to her children.. I would assume she used the same ability to attach the water domain to herself... her power or life force something.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Which is the exact opposite for Aurene. Doesn't make sense.

Aurene was born a non Elder Dragon from a Non Elder Dragon.. Soo Won as far as we know was always a different kind of being, the primordial Elder Dragon.

The confusing element of this is Glint's Origins which we have yet to get the specifics of.
We simply do not know if Elder Dragons can produce living offspring or if they must be created through magic.

Primordus maybe the closest we really get to answering that question, he creates destroyers from rock and lava but Destroyers can create more Destroyers by laying Eggs.
Kralkatorrik who produced Glint we know also has the ability to create Draconic beings.. The Shatterer as well as the other identical Crystal Dragons like it are known to be constructs, not natural creatures born and corrupted but rather artificial creatures that Kralkatorrick created with his power.

It's quite possible that Kralkatorrik a very long time ago prior to falling to corruption desired to create his own family but being an Elder Dragon was incapable of doing so, so he Created Glint in a similar manor he did with the Shatterer only he created Glint to be a true individual being with free will and all the other essentials.
And because Glint was not an Elder Dragon she was able to produce living offspring thus eventually Vlast and Aurene.

This is all highly speculative though since we simply do not know exactly how this all happened.
Kralkatorrick may very well have had the ability to produce living offspring.. but if he did then we have to ask why he never made more than one?.. and if he can then why have we never seen any other living offspring of the other Dragons?.
It begs more questions than answers.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

But it didn't corrupt her then...only now? Ok...

As I explained before the Void had no mind of it's own then, no will or desire.. it wasn't a conscious entity like the Dragonvoid we fought in Cantha.
It was raw primal magic in it's purest form when Soo Won broke it into the several domains.

If she did absorb it, she likely could only handle it's power for a short period of time, long enough to create her children and create the balance needed to sustain the world.

Much like we saw in End of Dragons, she was able to resist the Dragonvoid for brief periods of time but she could not resist it indefinitely.. Even with the Reactor siphoning the void from her she could not have stayed there forever.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Now somehow "Nothing," the void, is evolving... right...

Yes exactly, because of the Elder Dragons.

The Elder Dragons themselves went through the same thing, starting off as mindless children and developing into intelligent, individual beings.

The Void Magic within each one goes through the same process with the Dragons, it is this process that leads to their corruption in the first place manifesting as their torment which we saw directly with Kralkatorrik.
With each dragons death their magic pours back into the world and is consumed by the other Dragons the void corruption with it merging and evolving with every dragon until there was only Soo Won left, by that point all the evolving fragments of the void had merged into a single fully sentient being of it's own, The Dragonvoid and was more powerful than ever because of all the Dragons it had corrupted.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

No. You can't. When you say "Eternally," you cannot relate.

Yes, it is. You are a mortal being that cannot grasp the concept of eternal life.

Disagree, and probably the easiest real world example I could give you to relate to this would be the recent pandemic.

I don't know where you're from or how your country dealt with it but if you had to deal with the long lockdowns that many did and struggled with being in that situation like many people did, then I would say simply remember what that was like for you and imagine that you had to spend the rest of your life living like that.
Then take away whatever comfort the prospect of an ending gives you.

I can do this as can others.. it's not that hard to relate to the scenario Soo Won was in.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Finally. Something we can agree on. This definitely was not the original direction of the writing.

 At least there's one thing 😄 

Still i'm enjoying the conversation. ^^

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

"Well-known?" No it isn't.

Where? Where the hell does it say this?

I guess that depends on how interested you are in Gw2 lore.

But within the Gw2 lore community this is well known and often brought up regarding Dragon lore, gender and procreation discussions.

All Dragons in Gw2 are defined as Non-Binery or Asexual creatures and we've seen clear evidence of that with Glint who produced a lot of Eggs back in Guildwars 1 without a companion Dragon, if memory serves she was the only living higher Dragon on Tyria as well.. thus no mate was even possible.
We also know Glint is the child of Kralkatorrik who is clearly defined as male, although we do not know how Glint came to be as I talked about earlier.. it's possible she was created and not birthed but there is no evidence for this either way.. only that she exists and that she only had one parent.. a father.

We also have clear evidence that many if not all lesser dragon species such as Skyscales, Saltspray Dragons and Drakes are also birthed from Eggs.
The standing theory to my knowledge is that this asexual dragon reproduction is possible through a process called Parthenogenesis which is a real thing documented in the real world in some very real animal species.. so you can look that up if you're interested.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I've seen it. It's a good movie... but Chris Pratt's character is a monster. He condemned her to death before reaching her destination because he become obsessed. It is a similar concept. They painted a good ending on it, but I can assure you it wouldn't have been a good ending.

Quite possibly ^^

Although had he not done it they would have all died because of other circumstances.
But that's besides the point.. you are correct that things could have gone differently without other circumstances affecting the outcome.

That you have seen the movie though is good, means you have a good reference from a more human perspective on the situation.
So you can consider what you would do in the same situation/circumstances if you found yourself in them.

I know what I would do.. though it wouldn't be the solitude that would drive me to it, it would eventually be the boredom.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Yup. You're right. I was confusing it with the Dwarven machine in Ember Bay.

No worries, I get lore mixed up all the time as well.
So much to remember, and my memory is not the best >.<

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Consequential or collateral damage from a result that would've been 100x worse if the other end played out is NOT the fault of the heroes. If you seriously view it the other way, we have nothing to talk about and I would advise you to take a good, hard look at your morality in this world. That's like saying someone comes into a neighbor's home with a gun, they have a gun in their house, they kill the intruder and you think the neighbor should be charged with murder because "well, I mean there's consequences for killing someone." Insane.

Bit of an extreme example you give there but no need to worry, I am very much pro that kind of self defence, and I believe it to be an absolute human right to protect your home and family from intruders by any means necessary.

The fact is hindsight though.. it's very easy for people to look back on events that have happened and not consider the alternatives had they not happened.

This is very much a human thing to do and this is why our characters get labelled as a trouble maker or in some cases the bad guy.
I very much agree we are the Heroes of the story, the good guys just trying to do the right thing.. because I have played the story.. i've been the hero.
But I am also looking at things from other perspectives and I can understand why some characters would not see us that way, disagree with the decisions we make and not consider the alternatives had we not made them because of the consequences that have happened because of our actions.
In their eyes.. they are also the hero trying to stop a troublemaker who from their perspective doesn't seem to care what their actions lead to.

Basically, It's easy to judge others when you don't have to walk in their shoes.. and it's easy to say "I'd do things differently" when the choice was never presented to you.. or was taken from you by someone you don't trust.

A good example of this would be in EoD where Joon was trying to find a way to save Soo Won, her friend and in some ways mentor.. but we some random foreigner who came to her country illegally and uninvited and has betrayed her trust since then only seems interested in killing her and not even considering an alternative.
Sure we were right at the end of the day and she had to die.. but that in no way diminishes how justified Joon felt in trying to stop us and save her friend either.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Twins? Lol. What a joke. The same could've been said about Soo-Won/Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Water/Lightning and Life/Death. Yet nothing is ever mentioned about being "bound" to the other half. It's bad writing.

There was something regarding Mordremoth and Zhaitan but I don't recall it too well atm.
Suffice to say they were not each others weaknesses though where as Jormag and Primordus are.

But Kralkatorrik was a Crystal Dragon, not a lightning Dragon.
Sure he had some zappy powers and all that but he was the Dragon of Crystal and Fury not lightning or thunder.
My guess would be those elements came as a by-product of the Fury side of him, his Brandstorms.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

And? All that did was show the Canthans part of their justice system was seriously flawed.

Arguably all systems are in some way.. but going against them willingly still makes us a criminal, even if we believe it's the right thing to do.
And in doing so it means accepting the consequences if caught.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I really didn't like this spin on the story. Very disjointed and out of place.

I quite enjoyed it.. although I wish more people had been out to get us.
It wasn't done as well as it could have been and it would have been great to have had Rama and a few others chasing us for a while as well until we won them over.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Exactly my point. Some would disagree with you and I though... What if that person was  so terrified to die, they would rather work as a slave but stay alive? I'm saying it's not impossible for good intentions to exist within the concept.

There's more than likely some who would take that deal for sure.

But that doesn't mean the intentions of the one offering it are "good"

You could use Davy Jones from the Pirates of the Caribbean movies as another example of this.
He doesn't "help" people prolong their lives and avoid death, he prays on them, on their fears, on their very will to live so he can enslave them and twist them into monsters to do his bidding.

Joko is much the same, an evil, predatory man who abuses others living and dead for his own goals.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Playing ball and waiting for a moment to steal Taimi's machine are the same thing. Sorry, you're not going to convince me otherwise on this.

Fair enough ^^

We still struck first though 😛 hahaha XD

I do wish we had more actual Lazarus though, would have been intersting to have an actual Mursaat storyline in Gw2.

 

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Again, your view on reality is twisted. You say "Struck" but all the mirrors did was trap him. It trapped him so they could identify and then talk. It's ridiculous to think we were anywhere in the wrong in that scenario. I'll say this, I'd never want you on my team if that's the case.

By struck I'm merely referring to taking the first hostile action against him.

Trapping him was an act of hostility against someone who was claiming to be our ally.
I think he still mentions in Path of Fire that he wanted us to be allies, even after we attacked him but it's been a while since I played PoF.. so might be wrong.

19 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

No. There was no chance for diplomacy. Period. It's literally the reason the other gods trapped him in the mists.

We did not know that at the time, nor that Balthazar had been stripped of his rank and power.

That's something we learned in Path of Fire, a good while after we made him our enemy.

[Mykhel.6532]

9 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Well I don't know the science of it.. that's never specifically detailed but she fragmented the void into the several individual domains of magic and somehow attached those domains to her children.. I would assume she used the same ability to attach the water domain to herself... her power or life force something.

With no explanation. The Cycle ended with more questions than answers. In my opinion, this was a horrendous direction for them to go.

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

As I explained before the Void had no mind of it's own then, no will or desire.. it wasn't a conscious entity like the Dragonvoid we fought in Cantha.
It was raw primal magic in it's purest form when Soo Won broke it into the several domains.

This makes literally no sense. If it wasn't a threat... why break it up?

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

The Elder Dragons themselves went through the same thing, starting off as mindless children and developing into intelligent, individual beings.

Except for Zhaitan and Primordus.

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

But within the Gw2 lore community this is well known and often brought up regarding Dragon lore, gender and procreation discussions.

If there isn't a book you can point me to, a dev blog, or somewhere in game, it isn't lore.

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

We also have clear evidence that many if not all lesser dragon species such as Skyscales, Saltspray Dragons and Drakes are also birthed from Eggs.

Correct me if I'm wrong though... I'm pretty sure this had to do with them coming from the Mists. At least the Skyscales.

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

A good example of this would be in EoD where Joon was trying to find a way to save Soo Won, her friend and in some ways mentor.. but we some random foreigner who came to her country illegally and uninvited and has betrayed her trust since then only seems interested in killing her and not even considering an alternative.

Joon was a terrible, spoiled, and entitled brat to me. She was using Soo-Won for her own personal gains. Her prejudices against foreigners is what lost her the dragon.

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Joko is much the same, an evil, predatory man who abuses others living and dead for his own goals

Tell that to those who view Joko as a savior.

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

By struck I'm merely referring to taking the first hostile action against him

Wrong. The first hostile action was him hiding his identity from the group.

 

10 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

We did not know that at the time, nor that Balthazar had been stripped of his rank and power.

That's something we learned in Path of Fire, a good while after we made him our enemy.

This makes the argument moot then. Arguing that we should've used diplomacy at some point when finding out later there was never a chance for diplomacy... is a silly argument.

[Tyson.5160]

15 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

 

I guess that depends on how interested you are in Gw2 lore.

But within the Gw2 lore community this is well known and often brought up regarding Dragon lore, gender and procreation discussions.

All Dragons in Gw2 are defined as Non-Binery or Asexual creatures and we've seen clear evidence of that with Glint who produced a lot of Eggs back in Guildwars 1 without a companion Dragon, if memory serves she was the only living higher Dragon on Tyria as well.. thus no mate was even possible.
We also know Glint is the child of Kralkatorrik who is clearly defined as male, although we do not know how Glint came to be as I talked about earlier.. it's possible she was created and not birthed but there is no evidence for this either way.. only that she exists and that she only had one parent.. a father.

We also have clear evidence that many if not all lesser dragon species such as Skyscales, Saltspray Dragons and Drakes are also birthed from Eggs.
The standing theory to my knowledge is that this asexual dragon reproduction is possible through a process called Parthenogenesis which is a real thing documented in the real world in some very real animal species.. so you can look that up if you're interested.

 

 

Here is the link to Tom Abernathy advising that Jormag doesn’t identify with a gender.

 

An article regarding questions about non-binary.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Dragons:_Notes_from_the_Field#/media/File%3AElder_Dragons-_Notes_from_the_Field.jpg

Also a link that Kralkatorrik created Glint.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Tyson.5160
New info

[Dib.4612]

Yes.

I think Anet has been a 'progressive' company for a long time and they develop in the same direction as that ideology. Meaning, they use the game as a platform for their activism more and more as using any power you have for activism is the 'progressive' trend.  

Honestly I liked the lore from the first Guild Wars. And the base lore of GW2 I liked too. But pretty much from Season 1 onward it's been mostly either uninspired or squeezed into an activists mold, with some exceptions of course.