Your bad-guys are merely unpleasant

[Funky.4861]

I'm sorry Kalavier but you're putting words in my mouth now. I never said that Ihn was blackmailing Joon, only that she could and would if Joon didn't share what she was up to (at least to some extent).

 

Our whole experience of Cantha is that of visitors being managed, apart from the odd occasion where we see the cracks in the wall. It's very 1984 (the book by George Orwell) especially New Kaineng with the propaganda holograms.

[IvoryOwl.3275]

Personally, I'm more in favor of morally grey villains (and heroes).

Black and white characters are easier to write and they tend to shine in cartoonish settings but a more complex story requires equally complex characters to match. At the end of the day, GW2 is a power-fantasy game and the MC is always there to save the day... after a few tribulations. However, one of the problems with the consecutive "doomsday events" is that they they tend to lose their impact after a while. When every day is a major struggle, it becomes ordinary.

This is just my impression (I haven't finished the story yet) but I feel like, for all its lore, the story in GW2 is just middling level... It does the job but it's not a masterpiece of any kind. It's hard to write a good story for an MMO because you never known when the story actually ends. A new expansion means another chapter in the story and so you keep spinning that yarn to keep players engaged. Had the story ended with the defeat of Zhaitan, a lot of players would have left by now. The problem is this means you're liable to run out of 'cool' ideas eventually. 

Our culture has made it harder to write proper "evil" characters too. People prefer to erase or forget the darker parts of history than accepting it as part of our evolution. Everything we have today, everything we believe in was built on a foundation of trial and error, of learning. Mistakes and negative traits can enrichen a character but you also risk being persecuted for making a character that goes against modern societal norms. It's ironic, to see such intolerance in a society that pushes for tolerance and acceptance... especially in the arts and comedy.

Edited October 11, 2022 by IvoryOwl.3275

[Astralporing.1957]

On 9/23/2022 at 8:49 PM, Wolfb.7025 said:

By that point he has done much to just being antagonistic to the main character and very strict about rules, but it makes way more sense once you realize he's a purist, AKA a member of a xenophobic organization that outright hates anything that isn't a canthan human, yes, these are genuine concerns for Cantha, genuine xenophofic concerns btw. White Mantle was genuinely concerned about the Charr threat too!

I missed that last part the previous time, so now that the thread got active again, i'll respond to it.

Yes, White Mantle was genuinely concerned about the Charr threat. Their solution might have been significantly flawed (although they might not have known that at that point), and they might have turned out to be an evil cult organization, but there's one thing you have forgotten here. The charr were a real problem then, one that had to be removed.

What happens with minister Li however is like handwaving the whole charr invasion, because the defenders of Kryta turned out to be White Mantle.

I mean, Li may be presented as xenophobic, but the concerns he had about us, aetherblades, and Joon's technology being a danger to the Empire (ane being developed without enough safeguards) weren't exactly groundless, were they. Also, if him being a purist was not mentioned, every single action he made would have been perfectly justified. And if so, it means they were equally justified regardless of his political sympathies.

Instead, the game handwaved those concerns away without addressing them at all, just on the basis of political sympathies of who raised them. Which wasn't exactly a case of good writing.

(caveat: notice, that his actions being justified does not automatically mean they were right. But then some of our perfectly justified actions nearly brought the world to the brink of extinction, so we can hardly hold others to a higher standard)

[Animism.7530]

Bring back the Mursaat, the best villains of this game series. Genocidal, murderous, self-survivalist, and godly. Classic villains. 
Even the Charr used to be great villains... Now... Yeah. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Kulvar.1239]

On 9/23/2022 at 9:13 AM, Randulf.7614 said:

The problem is often down to a couple of issues

- a lot of people can’t separate the views of a character from the creator. A vile, bigoted character often offends someone to the point the writers get attacked for it and accused of being the same way. and the hate gets misdirected away from the villain. Getting people to trigger in the right way is very hard as our sensitivities have changed a great deal.

- the other issue is that it has become popular to find villains as “cool” - Joko in this case. There have been so many strong portrayals of villains like The Joker, Skeletor etc that people don’t like seeing them killed off. Good villains aren’t defined anymore by wanting to see them beaten, it’s quite the opposite.
 

Wrestling has the same problem. In what used to be a clear cut good guy vs bad guy, has become harder to find a way to get the bad guy booed. Often the trick is focus on making the hero the one to cheer for instead or keeping the villain off screen enough so as not to over develop the character, but see their effects - eg Sauron

Why kill a good villain if he's popular ? Just have him retreat to prepare the next big plan, and while away a new villain take the spot to keep things going. Gives you a perfectly good villain to reuse later.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

5 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Why kill a good villain if he's popular ? Just have him retreat to prepare the next big plan, and while away a new villain take the spot to keep things going. Gives you a perfectly good villain to reuse later.

Because this just leads to "I'll get you next time Gadget!" writing, which can ruin any good villain.

Its always better to kill a villain off at its prime then let it stay around and decay.

[Kulvar.1239]

10 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Because this just leads to "I'll get you next time Gadget!" writing, which can ruin any good villain.

Its always better to kill a villain off at its prime then let it stay around and decay.

Depends how many times you allow the villain to flee before catching him.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 10/12/2022 at 5:58 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

I mean, Li may be presented as xenophobic, but the concerns he had about us, aetherblades, and Joon's technology being a danger to the Empire (ane being developed without enough safeguards) weren't exactly groundless, were they. Also, if him being a purist was not mentioned, every single action he made would have been perfectly justified. And if so, it means they were equally justified regardless of his political sympathies.

Instead, the game handwaved those concerns away without addressing them at all, just on the basis of political sympathies of who raised them. Which wasn't exactly a case of good writing.

(caveat: notice, that his actions being justified does not automatically mean they were right. But then some of our perfectly justified actions nearly brought the world to the brink of extinction, so we can hardly hold others to a higher standard)

I don't think the "tech being a danger" or being made without safeguards is and actual point of his, but he's more against Joon because she wants to open the borders as well as using the mechs to possibly replace security staff. The Ministry of Security uses a lot of jade tech so that's kinda a weird angle if so.

The thing is he was lumping us, and everybody else with the Aetherblades (despite everybody agreeing the Aetherblades were the issue and not representing the rest of Tyria) He was messing with evidence involved in the investigation because he wanted to have the commander be responsible for the reactor's attack, and thus having a major reason to deport every non-canthan. The fact he was Purity, and a high ranking one apparently just added charges to him after the arrest.

Being honest, if he simply had accepted the evidence and let the commander go, there wouldn't have even been a reveal or arrest of him. He pulled out the Purity mask alongside his hit-squad and went "Yeah you have evidence proving you are completely innocent, but I'm arresting you anyway and ignoring it. If you don't accept the handcuffs I'm going to attack you."

So it isn't that his concerns were handwaved away, because the key one (aetherblades) had been mostly dealt with by then, and everybody else knew the commander wasn't maliciously harming cantha.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I don't think the "tech being a danger" or being made without safeguards is and actual point of his, but he's more against Joon because she wants to open the borders as well as using the mechs to possibly replace security staff. The Ministry of Security uses a lot of jade tech so that's kinda a weird angle if so.

He raises the fact that the "testing" was a sham basically as one of the first things we hear from him. Ministry of Security still uses the tech, but probably uses older models - and it's not like he has a lot of choice anyway, seeing as the tech is everywhere. Which it is because Joon happens to be a sister of the current Empress. Or at the very least it can seem like it to Li.

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The thing is he was lumping us, and everybody else with the Aetherblades (despite everybody agreeing the Aetherblades were the issue and not representing the rest of Tyria)

He was messing with evidence involved in the investigation because he wanted to have the commander be responsible for the reactor's attack, and thus having a major reason to deport every non-canthan. The fact he was Purity, and a high ranking one apparently just added charges to him after the arrest.

Being honest, if he simply had accepted the evidence and let the commander go, there wouldn't have even been a reveal or arrest of him. He pulled out the Purity mask alongside his hit-squad and went "Yeah you have evidence proving you are completely innocent, but I'm arresting you anyway and ignoring it. If you don't accept the handcuffs I'm going to attack you."

So it isn't that his concerns were handwaved away, because the key one (aetherblades) had been mostly dealt with by then, and everybody else knew the commander wasn't maliciously harming cantha.

It's way more complicated like that. For one, he really doesn't know all that much about us. Mistrust in us is quite normal for someone dealing with the Empire's security - especially when said Empire ends up in existential crisis that (not so) accidentally starts around the time we arrive. And if he went the distance and did learn more about us, he might have realized we're in fact directly responsible for either causing, or at least accelerating the whole world-ending issue. Because we are responsible - it is a direct consequence of our killing elder dragons. Some of which we have killed after we've already learned it can cause destruction of the world. If someone knows more about us, we are clearly a high-risk factor that brings it a lot of world-changing instability. Something you;d really, really not want in an empire like Cantha.

Second, sure, Aetherblades were responsible, and there's proof of it. But then, we have entered the reactor together with a leader of said Aetherblades. And noone really knows what exactly happened inside. And remember, that Aetherblades gained access to the reactor basically only because Joon first trusted abovementioned Aetherblade leader (and her crew) with access to her technology first.

The only thing our proof has really shown is that an Aetherblade device could have been used instead of Aurene's magic. Who used that device, for what purpose, or with collusion with whom? That is unknown, and any our claims about this are completely unproven.

And even if he actually believed that we have nohing to do with aetherblades (which, again, would have to be taken on faith, because we really can't prove that to him), we're back to the point made before. We're a potentially unstable element that is known to "solve" issues by blowing them up and causing even more problems in our wake. And as if one elder dragon running loose and causing major issues was not enough, we've just happened to bring another one to Cantha.

Frankly, at that point, in his place anyone should want us gone from the Empire as fast as possible. Trusting us to not make things worse would require either immense levels of preexisting personal trust (which he doesn't have, for obvious reasons) or a level of naivety someone of his responsibilities really should not be known for.

Him being a Purist sympathizer just adds a few more reasons to not trust us to a pile of other ones that are already there. With most of those other reasons being completely logical and justified ones.

[Kalavier.1097]

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

He raises the fact that the "testing" was a sham basically as one of the first things we hear from him. Ministry of Security still uses the tech, but probably uses older models - and it's not like he has a lot of choice anyway, seeing as the tech is everywhere. Which it is because Joon happens to be a sister of the current Empress. Or at the very least it can seem like it to Li.

It's way more complicated like that. For one, he really doesn't know all that much about us. Mistrust in us is quite normal for someone dealing with the Empire's security - especially when said Empire ends up in existential crisis that (not so) accidentally starts around the time we arrive. And if he went the distance and did learn more about us, he might have realized we're in fact directly responsible for either causing, or at least accelerating the whole world-ending issue. Because we are responsible - it is a direct consequence of our killing elder dragons. Some of which we have killed after we've already learned it can cause destruction of the world. If someone knows more about us, we are clearly a high-risk factor that brings it a lot of world-changing instability. Something you;d really, really not want in an empire like Cantha.

Doing that would also include learning about the good we've done or the attempts to fix those issues.

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Second, sure, Aetherblades were responsible, and there's proof of it. But then, we have entered the reactor together with a leader of said Aetherblades. And noone really knows what exactly happened inside. And remember, that Aetherblades gained access to the reactor basically only because Joon first trusted abovementioned Aetherblade leader (and her crew) with access to her technology first.

Actually, there isn't any proof the Aetherblades were there at all. The reports literally just have the Commander and crew entering, security going wonky, then the response team going in. They know Mai Trin is not an aetherblade at that point and the official reports/communication between Joon and Li include theorizing that the Commander attacked the reactor and Mai Trin died in the control room trying to stop them. Which is why they are hunting down the Commander as being the culprit. Marjory and Gorrik got warrants for being there + being seen wandering with Ivan at some point.

 

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The only thing our proof has really shown is that an Aetherblade device could have been used instead of Aurene's magic. Who used that device, for what purpose, or with collusion with whom? That is unknown, and any our claims about this are completely unproven.

And even if he actually believed that we have nohing to do with aetherblades (which, again, would have to be taken on faith, because we really can't prove that to him), we're back to the point made before. We're a potentially unstable element that is known to "solve" issues by blowing them up and causing even more problems in our wake. And as if one elder dragon running loose and causing major issues was not enough, we've just happened to bring another one to Cantha.

Actually, we were holding a device that has the exact same magic readings as the one in the reactor, meaning it had to be there.

Li outright says the story is far-fetched, but then goes to arrest us. Re-reading the dialogue on the instance, Min actually pops in and says she figured out the identity of the white mantle case and she didn't want Rama alone with Li, which makes Rama realize Li is a purist.

So before we actually fight Li, his involvement with the Purists is revealed and he's ready to attack us when his rooftop is exposed.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/In_the_Name_of_the_Law#Ministry_of_Security_Headquarters

He doesn't know that we are an unstable element known to blow up things while solving issues. He blames us for the reactor incident and wants us arrested for that, as it's an easy nail in the border opening discussion. The thing is, his true alignment is found out during that instance, as well as trying to arrest the PC right infront of Rama who has seen the evidence and believes it, and wants to pursue justice and truth.

23 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Frankly, at that point, in his place anyone should want us gone from the Empire as fast as possible. Trusting us to not make things worse would require either immense levels of preexisting personal trust (which he doesn't have, for obvious reasons) or a level of naivety someone of his responsibilities really should not be known for.

Him being a Purist sympathizer just adds a few more reasons to not trust us to a pile of other ones that are already there. With most of those other reasons being completely logical and justified ones.

None of his concerns are actually swept under the rug though. The real ones at least are the Aetherblades and related instances, which by that point are all dealt with.

The commander he's approaching from a biased angle, and works against evidence making them look more innocent. Joon outright looks at the device and goes "Oh. yeah. you are innocent." The person he was working with to investigate the reactor incident agreed with the innocent conclusion.

He doesn't have a history of the commander, good or bad. At least a full one. Approaching it as if he knows everything we've accidentally blown up to save the day is skewed, as it ignores his own bias and lack of intelligence because of his Purist alignment.

[Funky.4861]

The idea of the minister of security not knowing about a person/party who has killed 5 elder dragons, a god and a lich before landing on the shore of his nation whereupon we are implicated in things going wrong is frankly naive beyond belief. If the order of whispers and the order of shadows know our movements before we even show up, why in tyria would minister Li not know? Every empire has a network of spies and informants to keep them abreast of what the other nations are doing- Cantha is no different.

Minister Li is rightfully suspicious of us and there is (i would suggest) not enough time/events in game to prove our innocence to him before his concerns are dismissed. The story is just poorly written and rushed, and it's obvious.

[stormemperor.3745]

On 9/23/2022 at 9:43 AM, Zebulous.2934 said:

 I do find it odd, that the writing team keeps pulling punches when it comes to antagonists.  If the bad guy is raciest the racism is mentioned, but isn't portrayed well.  We are supposed to dislike the bad guy, they are supposed to offend us.  If they are going to be an -ist of some sort, show them being unfair, rude, and mean to that group of people. Do this multiple times as well.  Give us plenty of opportunity to connect that unpleasant character with unpleasant feelings. One demonstration of cruelty isn't enough.
 I need the villain to make me mad because of how he treats people.  I need to feel the injustice.  Don't simply have members of the target group tell me that the bad guy has done bad things to them.
I thought the whole point of a villain was to "trigger" people? That way we get a corresponding sense of satisfaction when they are defeated.  

Wdym, we are the antagonist. We came to Tyria to destroy everything in existence. Just coming to Tyria kittened up balance. We are the sole reason Tyria is like this in first place. Take out Humans and its just charrs being charr, rats being rats norns norny. We decimated so many races took their land and claimed as ours.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

54 minutes ago, Funky.4861 said:

The idea of the minister of security not knowing about a person/party who has killed 5 elder dragons, a god and a lich before landing on the shore of his nation whereupon we are implicated in things going wrong is frankly naive beyond belief. If the order of whispers and the order of shadows know our movements before we even show up, why in tyria would minister Li not know? Every empire has a network of spies and informants to keep them abreast of what the other nations are doing- Cantha is no different.

Minister Li is rightfully suspicious of us and there is (i would suggest) not enough time/events in game to prove our innocence to him before his concerns are dismissed. The story is just poorly written and rushed, and it's obvious.

I mean, I agree with the last part about the story being rushed, but how would Li and the Ministry of Security have any idea who we are, Cantha has an ocean between it and Tyria/Elona (as well as the possibility of remnants of Zhaitan's fleets in between), how is he going to get any of this info?

[Animism.7530]

32 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I mean, I agree with the last part about the story being rushed, but how would Li and the Ministry of Security have any idea who we are, Cantha has an ocean between it and Tyria/Elona (as well as the possibility of remnants of Zhaitan's fleets in between), how is he going to get any of this info?

Scouts... 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

36 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

Scouts... 

What scouts? Again: an ocean, with possible remnants of Zhatain's fleet. The powers that be in Tyria had a massive gap in their knowledge about Elona, a land connected to Tyria. Why would Cantha be better at that, especially after generations of isolation?

 

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Funky.4861 said:

The idea of the minister of security not knowing about a person/party who has killed 5 elder dragons, a god and a lich before landing on the shore of his nation whereupon we are implicated in things going wrong is frankly naive beyond belief. If the order of whispers and the order of shadows know our movements before we even show up, why in tyria would minister Li not know? Every empire has a network of spies and informants to keep them abreast of what the other nations are doing- Cantha is no different.

Minister Li is rightfully suspicious of us and there is (i would suggest) not enough time/events in game to prove our innocence to him before his concerns are dismissed. The story is just poorly written and rushed, and it's obvious.

They literally don't even know what an Asura or Sylvari is. Hell, they don't know what Dolyaks are in places in Cantha. We wash up on the shore in the middle of a pirate fleet falling out of the sky and causing chaos.

How would they have detailed information on the commander? Li's information comes from the meetings where Kasmeer negotiates their release. He knows the commander as a "Protector of the realm" for Tyria, not much else.

10 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

What scouts? Again: an ocean, with possible remnants of Zhatain's fleet. The powers that be in Tyria had a massive gap in their knowledge about Elona, a land connected to Tyria. Why would Cantha be better at that, especially after generations of isolation?

 

Also explicit statements on how Cantha's been isolated until now.

 

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I mean, I agree with the last part about the story being rushed, but how would Li and the Ministry of Security have any idea who we are, Cantha has an ocean between it and Tyria/Elona (as well as the possibility of remnants of Zhaitan's fleets in between), how is he going to get any of this info?

Also the fact that until GW2 PS finish, the dead fleets of zhaitan were coordinated and hunted down ships. So deep sea travel simply didn't exist. Even their journey over by airship is described in EoD as requiring moving around the uncoordinated clusters of risen ships, and using mesmer magic to disguise/cloak the ship.

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I mean, I agree with the last part about the story being rushed, but how would Li and the Ministry of Security have any idea who we are, Cantha has an ocean between it and Tyria/Elona (as well as the possibility of remnants of Zhaitan's fleets in between), how is he going to get any of this info?

Joon can manage to get her hands Asuran science magazines subscription. Empress apparently had a red phone line to Kryta working that she used immediately after a foreign ship crashed on their land, asking for explanations and a diplomatic emmisary. That the Cantha as a whole is very isolated and common canthans have no idea about the world outside does not mean that powerful individuals have no communication channels of their own.

[Animism.7530]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

They literally don't even know what an Asura or Sylvari is. Hell, they don't know what Dolyaks are in places in Cantha. We wash up on the shore in the middle of a pirate fleet falling out of the sky and causing chaos.

How would they have detailed information on the commander? Li's information comes from the meetings where Kasmeer negotiates their release. He knows the commander as a "Protector of the realm" for Tyria, not much else.

Also explicit statements on how Cantha's been isolated until now.

 

Also the fact that until GW2 PS finish, the dead fleets of zhaitan were coordinated and hunted down ships. So deep sea travel simply didn't exist. Even their journey over by airship is described in EoD as requiring moving around the uncoordinated clusters of risen ships, and using mesmer magic to disguise/cloak the ship.

Unless there's something in GW2 lore that suggests nobody on Cantha knows what an Asura is, you should assume they do seeing as GW1 was a thing... And if it is mentioned; it is nonsensical. 

It's like asking how would they know about Balthazar or the Dragons. You either don't know what you're talking about or leaping to conclusions in attempt to defend something which goes against common sense. 

Isolated does not mean a secret society and an "intelligence agency" does not have scouts... 

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Animism.7530 said:

Unless there's something in GW2 lore that suggests nobody on Cantha knows what an Asura is, you should assume they do seeing as GW1 was a thing... And if it is mentioned; it is nonsensical. 

It's like asking how would they know about Balthazar or the Dragons. You either don't know what you're talking about or leaping to conclusions in attempt to defend something which goes against common sense. 

Isolated does not mean a secret society and an "intelligence agency" does not have scouts... 

During recovery in the prison cell

Unknown: I think he's/she's stabilizing...

Unknown: Last thing we need is a dead mainlander. Probably stick us on morgue detail...

(If asura):

Unknown: The hell are they, anyway?

Otherwise:

Unknown: The hell is that one, anyway?

Unknown: Search me. Those teeth—those ears... (shiver/eugh)

Gorrik: Those ears can HEAR you.

Unknown: I said I don't know! The detective'll have an update when it's all sorted out. Sit tight.

Gorrik: Unacceptable! I want my comms call. We have a right to counsel!

Unknown: Not here, you don't.

"What the hell are they?" to Gorrik, while treating the commander at Shing Jea. Hell, Rama and the government officials think Quaggans are made up term if you fudge the paperwork.

It's been quite official that Cantha has not ventured past their borders for a very, very long time.

Same instance.

Detective Rama: Cantha. Come for the waters, stay for the hospitality. Been a while; 'ja miss us?

<Character name>: Cantha... I don't know what to say.

Detective Rama: Only been a hundred and fourteen years. Not like you had time to prepare or something.

Gorrik: What the Alchemy is that?

Detective Rama: Security mech or something. Can't keep up with all the new tech...

Gorrik: Curiously reminiscent of our golems. Has Cantha been trading with Rata Sum?

Detective Rama: Which part of "we've been closed to the outside world for over a hundred years" did you not understand?

Why would a Security minister who is also an isolationist be sending people out to explore the world?

 

They only vaguely know about Charr, with some people studying the Ze Heltzer ruins commenting on how they are bigger then the pictures suggested. They just learned of Sylvari, there are lines where they shrug and go "I'm no familiar with what a dolyak is" There is plenty of lines to point at the borders being sealed tight. they even mention in "hush hush" tones that Zephyrites had to smuggle the springers/raptors into Cantha at first as I recall.

 

The other thing is, assuming Li had detailed information on us, then why wouldn't he mention any of it? "I know what you did in Elona, and I won't let you disrupt our government here like you did there." would be a fitting line. Likewise, who would waltz up to the Commander, champion of Aurene, dragon and god-slayer, commander of the pact, with a few guards and think he could just arrest us and take us into a cell to torture until we signed a confession?

That's like the skyrim meme of "See that dude who just ate two dragon's souls? Let's mug him!"

[Animism.7530]

19 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Why would a Security minister who is also an isolationist be sending people out to explore the world?

 

They only vaguely know about Charr, with some people studying the Ze Heltzer ruins commenting on how they are bigger then the pictures suggested. They just learned of Sylvari, there are lines where they shrug and go "I'm no familiar with what a dolyak is" There is plenty of lines to point at the borders being sealed tight. they even mention in "hush hush" tones that Zephyrites had to smuggle the springers/raptors into Cantha at first as I recall.

 

The other thing is, assuming Li had detailed information on us, then why wouldn't he mention any of it? "I know what you did in Elona, and I won't let you disrupt our government here like you did there." would be a fitting line. Likewise, who would waltz up to the Commander, champion of Aurene, dragon and god-slayer, commander of the pact, with a few guards and think he could just arrest us and take us into a cell to torture until we signed a confession?

That's like the skyrim meme of "See that dude who just ate two dragon's souls? Let's mug him!"

 

Because the events of GW1 happened and they are aware of the outside world and should be aware of the races involved all the way up until the end of those events. They were capable of writing history books and trading. This is just common sense and reading between the lines.

They aren't isolated, because they are clearly trading with Zephyrites through smuggling?...
A good point, although that surely infers even more that if smugglers can gain access to Cantha, their top intelligence organisations are surely capable of more (like sending out scouts, or even, secret teleportation). 

I understand what you are saying in terms of quotes; but I don't think these story elements make sense. They are just "grunts". If they are isolationist, they are isolated for a reason; and they would still likely be aware and keeping tabs on outside forces. 

I'd say it's important to remember, the Asura were setting up gates all over the place back in GW1. It seems beggars belief to me that there wouldn't be one in Cantha, deactivated, hidden, or otherwise. The only excuse I can give is that it would be irritating for the writers to constantly go;

"Oh, but why didn't you teleport? That's a thing right, do you not have Asuran gates in Cantha?".

"Well... yes, but the Ministry of Security disallowed anyone without the proper authority to use them. They're mostly a relic of our past". 
"But did you not require outside assistance when Shiro Tagachi corrupted the land?" 
"Hmm... I suppose you're right". 


Re: Why didn't Li do anything with such information? Simply the way the story was written, it makes more sense for him to know and try something more than what actually occurred. Same reason Balthazar didn't just outright kill us, multiple times over. He was clearly capable and it seems awful that he was defeated by us. 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Why would a Security minister who is also an isolationist be sending people out to explore the world?

Because it is his job? Because, if he is an isolationist, it's even more important for him to be  ready in case that outside world might try to be less "outside" than desired?

"isolationist" does not mean dumb and uneducated. At least not at his levels of power and influence.

Li may not have a detailed information about the events happening in outside world, and major people associated with them, but he should at least have some informations. Which makes my earlier point even stronger - he knows just enough to realize we're a potential danger, and an unstable element the empire would rather not have anything to do with, but not enough to think of us as something more than just that.

Based on what he might know, wanting us (and our whole delegation) gone is a very rational decision, whether he is an isolationist and purist or not. From Canthan point of view we're a vigilante running loose without any supervision. And not just an uncontrolled vigilante, but an out-of-country one at that. Any government would want us gone, detained or at least strictly supervised (and by that point in story it can clearly be seen that the last choice is not really an option, because we have shown not even a shred of willingness to allow ourselves to be controlled and supervised). Nobody wants a loose cannon noone can control running around, especially if they are known to like playing apocalypse russian roulette.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I don't know what to tell you, other than it sounds a lot like the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing in the writers' room when they made this Xpack.

[Kalavier.1097]

Ever since Winds of Change, Cantha was isolated, only allowing Krytan ships to dock at the port and unload/load cargo there. Since Zhaitan rose, travel from Cantha to Tyria was cut off by the dead fleet, and Canthan's didn't travel much anyway in general.

Unlike Joko who kept an eye on/had easy access to news from his neighbors about what's going on with the dragons, Cantha did not. They closed the borders after winds of change, and kept them closed until now.

It's questionable if the EOTN gates under all three of the major cities is canon or not, as they reused the same map for all three campaigns.

 

On 10/17/2022 at 8:43 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Because it is his job? Because, if he is an isolationist, it's even more important for him to be  ready in case that outside world might try to be less "outside" than desired?

"isolationist" does not mean dumb and uneducated. At least not at his levels of power and influence.

Li may not have a detailed information about the events happening in outside world, and major people associated with them, but he should at least have some informations. Which makes my earlier point even stronger - he knows just enough to realize we're a potential danger, and an unstable element the empire would rather not have anything to do with, but not enough to think of us as something more than just that.

Based on what he might know, wanting us (and our whole delegation) gone is a very rational decision, whether he is an isolationist and purist or not. From Canthan point of view we're a vigilante running loose without any supervision. And not just an uncontrolled vigilante, but an out-of-country one at that. Any government would want us gone, detained or at least strictly supervised (and by that point in story it can clearly be seen that the last choice is not really an option, because we have shown not even a shred of willingness to allow ourselves to be controlled and supervised). Nobody wants a loose cannon noone can control running around, especially if they are known to like playing apocalypse russian roulette.

And the outside world would have to sail through a fleet of undead to do so, Cantha had a natural barrier in that regard.

Li knows we are a danger because he considers all outsiders a danger.

 

Also, amusingly enough from the Canthan point of view we haven't been running loose. We literally have Rama or Navan right with us for a chunk of the time. From the very start Rama has been watching our comms until we got them sealed. Navan traveled with us to Kaineng. The only blip is right after the reactor incident, but then we instantly met with Navan and Rama and worked with them. So officially yes, the Canthan government can say that the commander had somebody with them making sure they actually were not harming the country. And guess what, we were fine working with Rama! so that blasts the "Allowing ourselves to be supervised at all" away.

 

Overall, the thing is Li's biggest concern revolved around the Aetherblades, who were at that time reduced to a non-major threat again. Outsiders had to go through paperwork and registering to visit Cantha (you can find one Norn in the archives who was nearly arrested because his paperwork wasn't in order, until a Tengu helped get him sorted out). The Commander wasn't some wild loose cannon smashing their way through the empire, and has reasonable backing and character reference in Rama and Navan. And with Dragon's End/Arborstone having Navan reveal her true self, that's probably gotten out into the world too. "Hey, the legendary saltspray dragon who has helped protect Cantha said the commander was okay."

[Astralporing.1957]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

And the outside world would have to sail through a fleet of undead to do so, Cantha had a natural barrier in that regard.

Then can you explain how they managed to contact Queen Jenna and have the diplomatic delegation back there before we even managed to wake up after our crash? They obviously do have some channels of communication available, it's just they are not available to everyone (or even to most).

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Li knows we are a danger because he considers all outsiders a danger.

Him thinking outsiders are a danger does not make us not a danger. Because we are one. He is completely justified in being afraid.

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Also, amusingly enough from the Canthan point of view we haven't been running loose. We literally have Rama or Navan right with us for a chunk of the time.

Not when bad things happen, though. I mean, look at this from Li's point of view - the first moment we were unsupervised, a reactor blows up, and an elder dragon gets loose.

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Overall, the thing is Li's biggest concern revolved around the Aetherblades, who were at that time reduced to a non-major threat again.

Now pair that "non-major threat" with "reactor blows up, and elder dragon is on the loose" and our potential ties to aetherblades.

Seriously, i do understand that the players always tend to see their own character in best light, and expect everyone else to see them the same way, but that's a complete black-and white type of thinking. Which this game is indeed full of. Everyone against us is bad and evil, because they are against us - even if they do have justification for that. If they aren't against us, but with us however, then they are paragons of good even when there are some significant signs showing that we probably should be wary about them and their intentions.

The case with Li is exactly this. He was made a purist, so we don't have to think all too deeply about how actually justified most of his actions are, and we won't feel bad for having to beat him up for fullilling his duties (even if he's doing it overzealously).

Notice, btw, that we had to equally fight against Joon, because she was still set to oppose us even after admitting we've had nothing to do with the reactor case. And the only reason why she ends up being a good character is because she changed her mind after we defeated her contraptions. Same with Mai Trin - apart from some snide remarks from Marjory all was being forgiven just because she decided to help us out after we defeated her. Now consider what would have happened if one of them actually won the confrontation. Would that have made them evil?

Personally i do not buy that. I feel like being treated as a little kid (and not a very bright one, at that), where the game has to explicitly tell me who is good and who is bad, so i won't meet too complex moral issues to overheat the all too few brain cells i'm expected to have.

[Kalavier.1097]

18 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Then can you explain how they managed to contact Queen Jenna and have the diplomatic delegation back there before we even managed to wake up after our crash? They obviously do have some channels of communication available, it's just they are not available to everyone (or even to most).

They sent a messenger up, using the fact the risen fleets are in disarray and uncoordinated meaning that you can sneak by them without being hunted down and swarmed. Li also makes reference to having transport on the roof of the security headquarters that "Should get us to joon quickly" so it's implied they do have some means of air travel. There are no attempts at communication between the nations in any form that we know of before that point.

18 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Him thinking outsiders are a danger does not make us not a danger. Because we are one. He is completely justified in being afraid.

And he is biased against us as well as does not actually work alongside us like Rama and others do, allowing them to get a better perspective on us.

18 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not when bad things happen, though. I mean, look at this from Li's point of view - the first moment we were unsupervised, a reactor blows up, and an elder dragon gets loose.

Now pair that "non-major threat" with "reactor blows up, and elder dragon is on the loose" and our potential ties to aetherblades.

By the time Li attempts to arrest us, which is "When his concerns are just swept aside." as implied here, the Aetherblade threat is dealt with.

And Li does blame us for the reactor. However, let's say he didn't attempt to arrest us, and we all go to Joon's house. Joon looked at the device we presented as evidence and then almost immediately went "Yeah, that supports your claim of innocence." Combo Joon clearing us with Ankka and the bulk of aetherblade leadership dead/defected, would his concerns of the aetherblade still be "Swept aside"?

18 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Seriously, i do understand that the players always tend to see their own character in best light, and expect everyone else to see them the same way, but that's a complete black-and white type of thinking. Which this game is indeed full of. Everyone against us is bad and evil, because they are against us - even if they do have justification for that. If they aren't against us, but with us however, then they are paragons of good even when there are some significant signs showing that we probably should be wary about them and their intentions.

The case with Li is exactly this. He was made a purist, so we don't have to think all too deeply about how actually justified most of his actions are, and we won't feel bad for having to beat him up for fullilling his duties (even if he's doing it overzealously).

Notice, btw, that we had to equally fight against Joon, because she was still set to oppose us even after admitting we've had nothing to do with the reactor case. And the only reason why she ends up being a good character is because she changed her mind after we defeated her contraptions. Same with Mai Trin - apart from some snide remarks from Marjory all was being forgiven just because she decided to help us out after we defeated her. Now consider what would have happened if one of them actually won the confrontation. Would that have made them evil?

The thing is Li's concerns were valid, but by the time he had us nearly in shackles, much of his concerns had been dealt with.

The Aetherblades? broken. Commander trying to destroy the government? Not true. Commander trying to destroy Cantha? Not true, has evidence for them not being responsible for the reactor, they simply were in the wrong place at wrong time.

Joon is made to finally understand that she messed up and was going down the wrong goal. Li, if  hadn't violently attacked the commander with his hit squad, could've ended up the same way.

Mai Trin was hardly "All is forgiven." And while in Cantha people may praise her for stopping the reactor from exploding entirely, in Tyria she's still an icon of pain and death for Lion's Arch. If you tell Kiel you thought she redeemed herself, Kiel immediately responds with "don't think I'll see eye to eye with you on that."

If you say Mai Trin can't make up for what she's done, Kiel agrees, though admits it's surprising Mai Trin died helping save a city.