Mechanist is dividing the Community

[cyberzombie.7348]

Better idea, how about how instead of a flat damage nerf, they reduce the range on jade bot's more powerful abilities. Or give them range thresholds like the blunderbuss skill. Because what makes them so strong is that ranged AI typically function better than melee due to the lack of repositioning and mapping required that kept powerful pets like the ranger's tiger in check.

Edited October 30, 2022 by cyberzombie.7348

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You can't do that on a heal temp AFAIK ... but that's irrelevant to the discussion anyways. The point I'm making is that if people want to be rewarded with complex rotations, those builds exist. They never went away. They aren't going away. The existence of not-complex builds doesn't change how people are rewarded for their good execution of complex builds.

What other people play doesn't impact someone's ability to choose to play these still-existing complex builds if playing complex builds is what they want to be rewarded from.

Seems to me your complaint has little to do with mech at all. Just seems like a convenient place to hang your flag to complain about healtempest, even though heal tempest is extremely good at what it does ... provided you can play it properly. 

 

You really don't understand what i mean ...

Just , what is the reward for you playing a complex build ? for me ( and i think a lot of ppl playing the game) is to be more efficient than 3 apm builds , i understand that you dont care about metrics or numbers and the reward for you is the fun playing this or this build , but for a lot of people the reward is translated into efficiency .

You talking about healtempest being really good at what it does ? just tell me what does he do better than the others ? might generator ? it's on a holy freaking 180 aoe range , not talking about warhorn 4 fire here . Alacrity ? same , you have to succeed an overload , who are 3 sec cast time and not able to dodge or anything if you want alacrity . Fury ? what the hell , you have to play air to generate fury . Healing ? while it have really good heals with staff in water , the rest is garbage , all the heal are on a fairly +- high cd , running out of water , what do you have , soothing water ? bugged passiv with a 10 -7 sec duration depending of the timer you go out of water , wahs the pain and the heal signet , tahts all . Ahh i forgot the best the ice bow , a spam heal , once it's done on a 60 sec cd , do i need to say more ? If it is so good why dont we see it played more ? 

There is a real problem in the balance of a game , not all classes can be played at top levels pvp pve wvw , but starngely one class ... no 1 e-spec is played at 25% rate in endgame content pve , why ? is it becasue it is designed for ppl with disabilities ? so 25% of the ppl playing endgame have disabilities ? dont think so ....

And again anet stated builds LI and complex for each class of the game with a gap between Li and complex who is translated into efficiency (dps , boon uptime , heals , ...) , ty to say everything , not only the part that interest you . thats basically what a lot of us asked for , mechanist pew pew doenst need to be nerfed but complex build should reach at least +25% , 33 more efficiency than him then.

The better you are at a game the more efficient the game have you to feel

Edited October 30, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[zeyeti.8347]

7 hours ago, Frayze.4620 said:

I don’t think anyone anywhere on this thread has said that “ele is in a good spot” or anything like like. I fail to see what you ranting about ele issues has to do with this threads topic?

i get it, you want people who can mash more buttons more quickly to have more. More dps, more heals, more boons, whatever. As long as it’s more. And not just a little more. A LOT more. 
Well thankfully, not everybody agrees with you, and thankfully those people seem to include Anet. There’s already been a substantial drop off in any serious content of mechanist users, showing that the recent nerfs has the desired effect. It doesn’t need to be nerfed  into irrelevance, ruining higher level gameplay for a substantial portion of the player base, to pander to the minority who seem to equate a bigger damage number on a computer game to their own self worth.

 Seriously, try to stop caring so much about what others are doing and just look at your own performance. It could be rather liberating for you. We all know that she is in a rough spot, so if you can hit near the bench on an actual boss, well kitten done you! You rightly deserve to feel a sense of accomplishment and pride in your performance. If someone else, on a completely different class, pressing completely different buttons, has a completely different number on a damage meter, how does that affect that? If you want the same damage numbers, you can play that class as well? Or are you saying you will only be content when all numbers are balanced to what? The nearest 5dps? The nearest 100dps? The nearest 1000? What is the acceptable cut off to you? Because unless you want every class to have exactly the same damage, with exactly the same abilities with the only difference being flavour text, there are always going to be classes that have their time in the sun. 
You are getting yourself into a frothy rage over a class you ABSOLUTELY HAVE THE CHOICE TO PLAY. Now consider ele in its heyday. It had a famously difficult “piano rotation” to output its substantial dps. So would any player with a physical difficulty or limitation be able to do that rotation? Very doubtful indeed. So is it right or fair? No. 
Even worse, power mech is by far the strongest class now. Go look at the holy realm of snowcrows. Look at their benchmark section. Scroll down…. Keep scrolling down…..a bit more…. There. There’s power mech. See how far down it is? So all of those specs above it do exactly what you want. They put out more damage for pressing more things. You can play any of those and know that you should be able to put that noob-casual-mech-fotm-ltp kitten in their place with your uber-pro complex 500 step rotation. If you can’t, then that ain’t on the mech player or the balance situation.

 

 It’s on you.

Same , Up . Complex build should wreck easy builds , if not , why playing complex builds ? And no ,  i like efficiency , just like at my job , ain't doing the work , well it's bad , hup , to the garbage can , if you dont care about efficiency , it's your matter , but i care ,  i really care (and not the only one as you can see in the forum) , and if nothing is done in terms of balance they are classes you will never see again in endgame , in pve OW as i said you can play with a broomstick and jello shield it is still meta .

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Just , what is the reward for you playing a complex build ?

According to various people: "a fun and engaging gameplay experience" as opposed to the "boring gameplay which almost puts them to sleep" provided by some of the more simplistic LI builds which in and of itself sounds like a pretty good deal.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

 

You really don't understand what i mean ...

Just , what is the reward for you playing a complex build ? for me ( and i think a lot of ppl playing the game) is to be more efficient than 3 apm builds , i understand that you dont care about metrics or numbers and the reward for you is the fun playing this or this build , but for a lot of people the reward is translated into efficiency .

You talking about healtempest being really good at what it does ? just tell me what does he do better than the others ?

In PvE, it gets held back by Ele's genreally weak utility skills, and it's cumbersome alacrity generation method. It's perfectly viable in difficult end game content. It works just fine in Raids, Fractal CMs, Strike CMs, but so long as its utilities remain weak and its boon application remains cumbersome, it will maintain a low play rate regardless of its strength. Which, to be clear, it is a very good (albiet flawed) build, even if painful to pilot at times. 

In PvP It's the single best support bar none. In fact, Ele  is arguably the best class in PvP right now. It has two top tier meta builds. Tempest for support, and Catalyst for Sidenoding and Teamfight DPS. The reward for mastering Tempest in PvP is that you become a god of CC, healing, Projectile denial, surviving pressure with Earth shield, with good damage on the side even with a supportive build. 

 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

There is a real problem in the balance of a game , not all classes can be played at top levels pvp pve wvw , but starngely one class ... no 1 e-spec is played at 25% rate in endgame content pve , why ? is it becasue it is designed for ppl with disabilities ? so 25% of the ppl playing endgame have disabilities ? dont think so ....

The only content where you might have to play remotely sweaty to win is Harvest Temple CM. Everything else can and has been cleared with every elite spec. PvE really isn't that hard. If players are struggling, they can opt for a more safe teamcomp with Specter, Scourge, Heal Brand, HAM, and easier DPS or Dps builds with built in utility like Condi Scourge, Rifle Mech, Virtuoso, or Condi FBrand, or Herald, but this is not necessary to succeed.

Trying to play High difficulty, low utility, or glass canon builds is generally what gets inexperienced players in hot water when they're still learning a fight. These builds are very rewarding once someone is experienced, but it takes longer to see results playing these builds. Some interpret this learning process as a sign that these builds are not rewarding at all compared to something easier, but that is not the case. 

WvW is kind of a mess and has been for a long time. 

PvP at the moment is at the most balanced it's been in a long time. Every class has at least one meta build. Even Mesmer has been brought out of the depths of unviability ever since Virutoso and Chrono gained distortion. 

 

Currently the meta specs for each class include

Ele: Support Tempest, Catalyst Sidenoder

Mesmer: Bunker Chrono, Bloc spam Virtuoso (distortion buff really helped)

Necromancer: The Hamburgler

Ranger: Untamed, Soulbeast

Thief: Specter (nerfed but still viable), SA Deadeye

Engineer: Nade Holo, Rifle Mech (Low Gold and below)

Warrior: Bladesworn, Spellbreaker sidenode (making it's return)

Guardian: Willbender, Core support (Not as good as Tempest but still viable)

Revenant: Sidenode Vindicator (arguably most OP build atm), Herald (arguably best roamer)

 

 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And again anet stated builds LI and complex for each class of the game with a gap between Li and complex who is translated into efficiency (dps , boon uptime , heals , ...) , ty to say everything , not only the part that interest you . thats basically what a lot of us asked for , mechanist pew pew doenst need to be nerfed but complex build should reach at least +25% , 33 more efficiency than him then.

The better you are at a game the more efficient the game have you to feel

Not sure what you mean by efficiency. Do you mean raw output?

LI builds are built to be more efficient by design. You are minimizing input and maximizing output. What should be lower than the average is the amount of output that LI builds get. Not their efficiency. 

That currently seems to be the case with Mechanist pulling 33.8k DPS. Just on the cusp of what boon supports dish out. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

 

You really don't understand what i mean ...

Just , what is the reward for you playing a complex build ? for me ( and i think a lot of ppl playing the game) is to be more efficient than 3 apm builds , i understand that you dont care about metrics or numbers and the reward for you is the fun playing this or this build , but for a lot of people the reward is translated into efficiency .

 

OK, what you feel rewarded by has nothing to do with the fact that there are builds that reward people for complex gameplay, even with the existence of low APM builds that do the same. 

Again, the existence of these LI builds, regardless of their 'efficiency' or whatever you want to label it, has no impact on why people choose to play whatever builds they get enjoyment from for whatever their reasons are. I'm just going to call it for what it is: people are jealous they are outperformed on builds almost anyone can play. The game isn't about massaging people's pride; that's a bad business model and Anet knows it. These people have imposed their own ideas of 'fairness' and 'equality' on how classes are balanced. I didn't see that section in Anet's philosophy. What I did see this though:

Fundamentally, our goal is to ensure that the moment-to-moment gameplay in Guild Wars 2 is enjoyable for as many players as possible

Does that sound to you like Anet is going to maintain a strict relationship between APM and 'efficiency'? Not to me it doesn't. In fact, maintaining that strict relationship would do the OPPOSITE of what they state their goal is because the average player doesn't care about how many buttons they press. Another fact ... APM is a a ridiculous measure of gameplay skill in the first place. It's a pretty absurd thing to fly your flag on. 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, what you feel rewarded by has nothing to do with the fact that there are builds that reward people for complex gameplay, even with the existence of low APM builds that do the same. 

Again, the existence of these LI builds, regardless of their 'efficiency' or whatever you want to label it, has no impact on why people choose to play whatever builds they get enjoyment from for whatever their reasons are. I'm just going to call it for what it is: people are jealous they are outperformed on builds almost anyone can play. The game isn't about massaging people's pride; that's a bad business model and Anet knows it. These people have imposed their own ideas of 'fairness' and 'equality' on how classes are balanced. I didn't see that section in Anet's philosophy. What I did see this though:

Fundamentally, our goal is to ensure that the moment-to-moment gameplay in Guild Wars 2 is enjoyable for as many players as possible

Does that sound to you like Anet is going to maintain a strict relationship between APM and 'efficiency'? Not to me it doesn't. In fact, maintaining that strict relationship would do the OPPOSITE of what they state their goal is because the average player doesn't care about how many buttons they press. Another fact ... APM is a a ridiculous measure of gameplay skill in the first place. It's a pretty absurd thing to fly your flag on. 

 

 

I think a fundamental disconnect here is this:

It's fine for a build to be easy to play and efficient enough to get through content. In fact, it's desirable for such builds to exist, as they give players an opportunity to learn mechanics without having to learn a complex rotation at the same time.

It's also fine for such a build to outperform a more complex build while the player of the latter is still learning.

But it's not fine for the easy build to be outperforming the complex build even when the latter is being played optimally. Because then the easy build just ends up being the obviously best option regardless of skill level.

[Frayze.4620]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm pretty sure that's not what they were saying.

The problem is, though... well let's go with a hypothetical.

You have two builds, of different professions, each of which is the top DPS build of their profession. One is full ranged, has a 'press a small number of buttons on recharge' rotation making it virtually immune to being disrupted by mechanics or having to do mechanics, and has a teleport that allows it to more quickly respond to movement based mechanics, had moderate base health and armour, and has CC available pretty much whenever it needs it. The other is melee, has three separate rotations to learn with a total of over a hundred steps making it complex to learn as well as being easily disrupted by mechanics, has relatively little mobility and in fact some of its damage is lost if the target moves, has low base health and armour, and its ability to CC depends on where it happens to be in the rotation.

Both have the same DPS in ideal circumstances, and neither brings much in the way of utility beyond what's described above.

Now, you're setting up a squad. Which would you rather see someone bring? Build 1 is almost idiotproof - if someone rocks up with that, then all they really need is a basic understanding of the fight mechanics to give reliable DPS. While, if you get someone rocking up with Build 2... sure, if they're an elite player, and the fight doesn't involve a lot of movement, and you can stay in melee for the entire fight, and they never get their rotation disrupted, then they might get about the same performance as a mediocre player using Build 2. But that's a lot of ifs. Maybe they haven't quite got the rotation down, so their DPS is going to be lower. Maybe they'll eat a hit and get downed when Build 1 with a higher base health and damage would have stayed standing. Maybe at least one of the fights you're forming the squad to fight will require moving to follow the boss or even to get out of melee for a bit. And even the best player might be caught out by having to dodge at an inconvenient time, thereby disrupting their rotation and reducing their DPS.

You might not be willing to appear toxic and kick the player playing Build 2, but you'd rather see someone playing Build 1, wouldn't you? This creates pressure, whether spoken or unspoken, for players to move away from Build 2 and towards Build 1 in order to more reliably clear content. Which is a bit of a pain for people who really like the profession for whom Build 2 is their best DPS option. Sure, technically they can still play the profession they enjoy, but both they and the people they play with know that they'd probably be having more success if they just moved to Build 1 instead. This is a problem that can be solved by nerfing Build 1 or buffing Build 2, but in the meantime, the mere existence of Build 1 has a suppressive effect on any build that is more difficult to play and/or more susceptible to mechanics unless that build brings something to the table that Build 1 doesn't.

Do you see the problem now? Do you see why balancing everything based on a theoretical maximum potential that maybe only a few dozen players out of the entire player base can actually reach was a bad approach?

And, as you might have already realised...

This was never actually a hypothetical.

Build 1 was pre-nerf rifle mechanist, and Build 2 is condi weaver which benches at the same ballpark of 38k.

Yes. PRE nerf. It has been nerfed, quite rightly I agree. Yet even with that nerf, which increases the gap between those with an easier rotation and those with a harder one, it apparently still isn’t enough. It must be nerfed more and more. So my repeated question is…until when? Until a set percentage of “hardcore” players are 100% sure that a mech player can never even attempt to “beat” them on dps? Until it puts out so little damage that it literally isn’t viable anywhere except open world? Where’s the magic line that these “elites “ will be happy with?

[Frayze.4620]

55 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think a fundamental disconnect here is this:

It's fine for a build to be easy to play and efficient enough to get through content. In fact, it's desirable for such builds to exist, as they give players an opportunity to learn mechanics without having to learn a complex rotation at the same time.

It's also fine for such a build to outperform a more complex build while the player of the latter is still learning.

But it's not fine for the easy build to be outperforming the complex build even when the latter is being played optimally. Because then the easy build just ends up being the obviously best option regardless of skill level.

Let me give my own opinion as to where another disconnect is. People massively overestimate their own skill level. They do not want to assume they stuck, or even need to improve. How many times, whether it be in a raid boss, or in pvp or in WvW, have you seen someone blaming another for something which is obviously their own kitten fault?

 

 Yes, the way build in your example is easier to do does with. That’s the point really isn’t it. Are you telling me then that I, as a slightly-above-average player, could go into a raid on mech and challenge for top dps with snowcrows? Or any other high level raiding guild? I doubt it very very much. They fight the same bosses we do, and so if their melee range dps can do more damage than a mech player, so can you. 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

12 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Just , what is the reward for you playing a complex build ? for me ( and i think a lot of ppl playing the game) is to be more efficient than 3 apm builds , i understand that you dont care about metrics or numbers and the reward for you is the fun playing this or this build , but for a lot of people the reward is translated into efficiency .

 

The reality is any hard piano build outDPS pre nerf Mechanist (by extension these build still outDPS post nerf Mechanist).

 

And if you enjoy playing complex build nothing prevents you to keep playing the said build. People who cry that Mechanist replaced every DPS is straight up just wrong. People who played a build because they like the build keep playing the same build. 

 

What you're saying isnt you liking playing piano build. You're saying you want to play high DPS build because in the end, the only thing you look is just the DPS number. And if that number is being beaten by a spec with a lower APM then according to you something is wrong.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Alcatraznc.3869

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

5 hours ago, Frayze.4620 said:

Let me give my own opinion as to where another disconnect is. People massively overestimate their own skill level. They do not want to assume they stuck, or even need to improve. How many times, whether it be in a raid boss, or in pvp or in WvW, have you seen someone blaming another for something which is obviously their own kitten fault?

 

 Yes, the way build in your example is easier to do does with. That’s the point really isn’t it. Are you telling me then that I, as a slightly-above-average player, could go into a raid on mech and challenge for top dps with snowcrows? Or any other high level raiding guild? I doubt it very very much. They fight the same bosses we do, and so if their melee range dps can do more damage than a mech player, so can you. 

This hit the home. People suck and they don't want to admit it. Even scourage, virtuoso, fb can outdps power mech by good margin.

How I know this? I play those classes when I feel like it and I pull much better number than Pmech and I am not even that good of a player.

[zeyeti.8347]

 

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think a fundamental disconnect here is this:

It's fine for a build to be easy to play and efficient enough to get through content. In fact, it's desirable for such builds to exist, as they give players an opportunity to learn mechanics without having to learn a complex rotation at the same time.

It's also fine for such a build to outperform a more complex build while the player of the latter is still learning.

But it's not fine for the easy build to be outperforming the complex build even when the latter is being played optimally. Because then the easy build just ends up being the obviously best option regardless of skill level.

Ty , thats what i said but you said it more clearly .

The text above quoted is exactly what is happenign right now , mechanist is overplayed because :

-it's an easy efficient support build , bumping boons with almost no interactions needed from the player.

-Easy and efficient dps build , due to literall 90% damage effectiveness at 1200 range , having a bot  who still deal 8-9 k no matter what is happening on the fight (except for some very few mechanics).

-And for the support/dps alac it's the same as the two "-" above

yes we still can play those complex build , but those are irrelevant to a bunch of us , because why playing a class who has some complexity if it is to be less efficient than an easy class , thats the all matter.

1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

The reality is any hard piano build outDPS pre nerf Mechanist (by extension these build still outDPS post nerf Mechanist).

 

And if you enjoy playing complex build nothing prevents you to keep playing the said build. People who cry that Mechanist replaced every DPS is straight up just wrong. People who played a build because they like the build keep playing the same build. 

 

What you're saying isnt you liking playing piano build. You're saying you want to play high DPS build because in the end, the only thing you look is just the DPS number. And if that number is being beaten by a spec with a lower APM then according to you something is wrong.

I played a lot of piano builds , i used to play weaver in fractals , catalyst quickness in raids , but now i dont want to play those , i am very in the "role" meta a dps must try dps the highest possible , and supports have to try reach near 100% boonuptime , i said "try".  It is just not normal a sole e-specs is played at 25% , i take what is the most efficient , not what i like to play , cause the way the game is fun for me is being efficient. And yes it is wrong an oyster apm build goes near a high apm build , cause people look at arcdps a lot more than  you think , how do you think the emch pew pew meta was spread ? People just tried rifle because they just were curious ? no a lot of people saw crazy numbers on a spec who literally stood in place AA almost afk and saw amazing numbers with no effort , it is the same for me , when i see a build wrecking high numbers i ask the player what he is playing and try it out , i know what you gonna say their are a lot builds who performs better than mech , and thats true ... on the golem raid , because just tell me which class can reach almost 30k standing at 1200 range with literally 1 or 2 button press ? just look at the numbers 27% playing mech versus the whole ele class (3e-specs) at 4% , there is no problem at all yes ofc ...

the mech can stay as he is , (shift signet still freaking op, ...) but other classes need to be lifted up.

Edited October 31, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[zeyeti.8347]

12 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

According to various people: "a fun and engaging gameplay experience" as opposed to the "boring gameplay which almost puts them to sleep" provided by some of the more simplistic LI builds which in and of itself sounds like a pretty good deal.

Well maybe in OW , but in endgame , 25% of the people like "boring gameplay which almost puts them to sleep" it seems.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

It is just not normal a sole e-specs is played at 25% , i take what is the most efficient , not what i like to play , cause the way the game is fun for me is being efficient.

Ok then you shouldnt be complaining about Mechanist because its damage is below a lot of DPS class. Especially now after the nerf

3 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And yes it is wrong , cause people look at arcdps a lot more than  you think , how do you think the emch pew pew meta was spread ? People just tried rifle beacsue they just were curious ? no a lot of people saw carzy numbers on a spec who literally stood in place AA almost afk and saw amazing numbers with no effort , it is the same for me , when i see a build wrecking high numbers i ask the player what he is playing and try it out , i know what you gonna say their are a lot builds who performs better than mech , and thats true ... on the golem raid , because just tell me which class can reach almost 30k standing at 1200 range with literally 1 or 2 button press ? just look at the numbers 27% playing mech versus teh whole ele class (3e-specs) at 4% , there is no problem at all yes ofc ...

 

You talk about being 1200 range away but not once have I seen a Mechanist stand 1200 away from the group because he would be called out for that but also because that is just a big DPS loss. Being able to do some mechanic while maintaining DPS is a strenght sure. Saying you can just stay 1200 away from the fight is true but you wont reach the high number youre talking about because you have 0 boons. 

 

Also as I said in another topic people love discrediting benchmark number because its performed on a stationary golem. Thats fine by me but then why do you use the same benchmark as a reason to show Mechanist DPS is high ?  The answer is simple people just use the benchmark golem when it fits their narrative. 

[Hindenburg.3415]

Mechanist has obvious "We need to sell expansion" vibe.

It will be around for a year probably and then it will be nerfed.

It's pointless to discuss anything because they know what they did with it. 

[zeyeti.8347]

19 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Ok then you shouldnt be complaining about Mechanist because its damage is below a lot of DPS class. Especially now after the nerf

 

You talk about being 1200 range away but not once have I seen a Mechanist stand 1200 away from the group because he would be called out for that but also because that is just a big DPS loss. Being able to do some mechanic while maintaining DPS is a strenght sure. Saying you can just stay 1200 away from the fight is true but you wont reach the high number youre talking about because you have 0 boons. 

 

Also as I said in another topic people love discrediting benchmark number because its performed on a stationary golem. Thats fine by me but then why do you use the same benchmark as a reason to show Mechanist DPS is high ?  The answer is simple people just use the benchmark golem when it fits their narrative. 

Then just tell me why is it at 25% and we see no elementalist play at all , but i agree on your last sentence it's true i take the golem raid training numbers when it's suits me , can see it in a lot of my post .But still it's the class who is able to perform as well on the golem raid than in real fights cause of it's easiness , i am not for a further nerf , but then a lot of other classes need to be bumped up .It always make me laugh when people say , yes but ele is the best healer of the game the best boon giver , holy hell , tempest heal is never played it has a lot of flaws that i stated before , and what specially angers me is that anet know this class has a lot of flaws , but they are always afraid to buff it cause super elitist people are gonna make it work so good it will speedclear even the hardest content ... (aka MO in 45 sec ... yes very hard content indeed ...). I hope anet just look at whats is the less played and acknowledge there is a problem with this class , https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity if you look at the graphic in oct 2022 , every class has at least 1-especs a bit represented in endgame content , except 1 or 2 ... guess which ? 

Edited October 31, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Alcatraznc.3869]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Then just tell me why is it at 25% and we see no elementalist play at all

That wont answer everything but when I open profession section and all I see is people crying Elementalist is trash in all gamemode, as a new player I am not even tempted to try the class. On the other hand when every single person regardless of the thread says "Hur just play Mechanist" even when the person is asking for a quickness support, as a new player I'm very tempted to try the spec.

 

While Elementalist could receive some love in certain gamemode, crying everyday that it's the worst class in the game in all gamemode, that Anet hates Elementalist doesnt really encourage people to actually try the class. And because less people are encourage to try the class, less people will play Elementalist. And if less people play Elementalist and more Elementalist decides to reroll, the number of Ele player will drop. Then stats will say Elementalist is the least played profession, which will discourage even more player to try the class. Typical scenario of a self fulfilled prophecy.

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

.But still it's the class who is able to perform as well on the golem raid than in real fights cause of it's easiness , i am not for a further nerf , but then a lot of other classes need to be bumped up .

That's something I can agree with

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

It always make me laugh when people say , yes but ele is the best healer of the game the best boon giver , holy hell , tempest heal is never played it has a lot of flaws that i stated before , and what specially angers me is that anet know this class has a lot of flaws , but they are always afraid to buff it cause super elitist people are gonna make it work so good it will speedclear even the hardest content ...

The best probably not. But people clearly underestimate its healing and support ability.  Heal tempest is good, HATempest is also good despite its flaw. Same for Druid heal and HADruid. 

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

(aka MO in 45 sec ... yes very hard content indeed ...). I hope anet just look at whats is the less played and acknowledge there is a problem with this class , https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity if you look at the graphic in oct 2022 , every class has at least 1-especs a bit represented in endgame content , except 1 ... guess which ? 

 

I'm pretty sure someone in Anet said wingman data is skewed. Cant be arsed to search in which post I saw that but anyway I'll leave it there.

[Animism.7530]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, what you feel rewarded by has nothing to do with the fact that there are builds that reward people for complex gameplay, even with the existence of low APM builds that do the same. 

 

Again, the existence of these LI builds, regardless of their 'efficiency' or whatever you want to label it, has no impact on why people choose to play whatever builds they get enjoyment from for whatever their reasons are. I'm just going to call it for what it is: people are jealous they are outperformed on builds almost anyone can play.

 

Stop telling other people what they think. 

The complex builds barely outperform the likes of Mechanist and it does impact why you choose to play builds. 
Efficiency is the whole reason we have meta builds to begin with. That is literally what it is. You trying to tell anyone here otherwise is completely disingenuous.

That involves everything from ease of use to damage numbers, to support capability. 

It's funny you bring up jealousy, and also deeply inappropriate and unfair; so I'll just swing a similar sentiment back towards you. You constantly give contrarian arguments that are devoid of logic and are mostly self obsession. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Frayze.4620]

7 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

 

Stop telling other people what they think. 

The complex builds barely outperform the likes of Mechanist and it does impact why you choose to play builds. 
Efficiency is the whole reason we have meta builds to begin with. That is literally what it is. You trying to tell anyone here otherwise is completely disingenuous.

That involves everything from ease of use to damage numbers, to support capability. 

It's funny you bring up jealousy, and also deeply inappropriate and unfair; I'd say I'd swing a similar sentiment back towards you, but what's the point? You constantly give contrarian arguments that are devoid of logic and are mostly self obsession. 

You are right. Meta builds exist for a reason, to push a certain spec to its absolute limits of performance (in the use case we are discussing in this thread at least). So again, go to snowcrows and look at their results for the absolute peak performance that per mech can do. Now see all those other classes that are above it??

There’s a near 7k difference between power mech and bladesworn…. I’m even ignoring the incredibly difficult to pull of untamed spec here.  So, power mech received a nerf which pulled down its damage by approximately 4-5k. I would argue that that nerf could be called fair, even if it made the players of said spec slightly upset. The gap between a low intensity build (power mech in this case) and a high one (bladesworn) is 7k. How much do you want it to be??

[Frayze.4620]

3 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

 

Ty , thats what i said but you said it more clearly .

The text above quoted is exactly what is happenign right now , mechanist is overplayed because :

-it's an easy efficient support build , bumping boons with almost no interactions needed from the player.

-Easy and efficient dps build , due to literall 90% damage effectiveness at 1200 range , having a bot  who still deal 8-9 k no matter what is happening on the fight (except for some very few mechanics).

-And for the support/dps alac it's the same as the two "-" above

yes we still can play those complex build , but those are irrelevant to a bunch of us , because why playing a class who has some complexity if it is to be less efficient than an easy class , thats the all matter.

I played a lot of piano builds , i used to play weaver in fractals , catalyst quickness in raids , but now i dont want to play those , i am very in the "role" meta a dps must try dps the highest possible , and supports have to try reach near 100% boonuptime , i said "try".  It is just not normal a sole e-specs is played at 25% , i take what is the most efficient , not what i like to play , cause the way the game is fun for me is being efficient. And yes it is wrong an oyster apm build goes near a high apm build , cause people look at arcdps a lot more than  you think , how do you think the emch pew pew meta was spread ? People just tried rifle because they just were curious ? no a lot of people saw crazy numbers on a spec who literally stood in place AA almost afk and saw amazing numbers with no effort , it is the same for me , when i see a build wrecking high numbers i ask the player what he is playing and try it out , i know what you gonna say their are a lot builds who performs better than mech , and thats true ... on the golem raid , because just tell me which class can reach almost 30k standing at 1200 range with literally 1 or 2 button press ? just look at the numbers 27% playing mech versus the whole ele class (3e-specs) at 4% , there is no problem at all yes ofc ...

the mech can stay as he is , (shift signet still freaking op, ...) but other classes need to be lifted up.

You are now deliberately spreading complete lies and misinformation. Nothing else you say can be taken even remotely seriously. 
 

Go to the golem. Record yourself standing at 1200 range (don’t forget…no buffs other than self given ones as you are way off your group now) and do a rotation that gives you “almost 30k with one or two button presses”. 
Either link that here to prove me wrong or admit that what you have said here is complete and utter hyperbole to prop up your already weak arguments.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Animism.7530 said:

The complex builds barely outperform the likes of Mechanist and it does impact why you choose to play builds. 
Efficiency is the whole reason we have meta builds to begin with. That is literally what it is. 

Right ... and you those choices didn't go away. They still exist. If performance is your primary factor, you simply choose the highest performing spec as the game changes. What's the problem? The problem is that people are contradicting themselves. 

I mean, if someone is actually using efficiency as the main factor to choose a spec/build/whatever, then why are people complaining something is more efficient? If efficiency is the goal, those people should ALREADY have the expectation they swap builds to whatever is the most efficient whenever Anet changes the game and meta shifts. 

So ... seems to me some people aren't being honest with themselves or us in these discussions. If people simply play something because "efficiency", they roll with the punches on meta changes. People that complain about something else being better then what they play ... they aren't using efficiency as the primary reason they play something. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Animism.7530]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, if someone is actually using efficiency as the main factor to choose a spec/build/whatever, then why are people complaining something is more efficient?

The answer to this is so obvious it's beggars belief you even ask it. 

Because people want to play what they are interested in, though simultaneously they don't want to feel it's functionally underwhelming. 

Listen - I want to play Elementalist, though I barely ever play it anymore due to other classes being far more efficient in every way. 
You can't argue with that unless you're just going to bring up "yer but, no but".

Like another commenter above - you should read my previous comment and point out that it's a subjective line between DPS, support or ease of use. This is where Mechanist is a problem, because it's so freakishly easy to play and undermines the value of other classes. It's also incredibly versatile. 

I don't need to be reminded of the benchmarks on the SC website - or the likes of a certain Condition Weaver benchmark that's so out of touch with reality that if you can't identify why it's irrelevant yourself, I'll simply think you're trying to derail conversation. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

The answer to this is so obvious it's beggars belief you even ask it. 

Because people want to play what they are interested in, though simultaneously they don't want to feel it's functionally underwhelming. 
 

That just means your conditions for choices are over-restrictive. It's unreasonable to think Anet can create a build space of hundreds of specs and build combos that meet everyone's expectations for all the requirements they impose on it. 

I mean, heal tempest is a good example ... it's HARDLY functionally underwhelming. Yet, here we are will posters complaining about mechanist and how heal tempest isn't as good. So no, there is some significant disconnect here between what is reasonable and real and what people are imposing from their imaginations. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Animism.7530]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That just means your conditions for choices are over-restrictive. It's unreasonable to think Anet can create a build space of hundreds of specs that meet everyone's expectations for all the requirements they impose on it. 

 

Then why are you here debating on a topic about balance and divisions in the community? 
If you don't think anything can be done, stop making contrarian denigrating arguments for the sake of it. It's no value to anyone. 

Let people give their opinion about why they'd play another class other than the ones that are propped up and promoted by Anet balance patch after balance patch... 

It's not as if Ele used to be the meta right?..... Right???? 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Animism.7530 said:

 

Then why are you here debating on a topic about balance and divisions in the community? 
 

That's a completely weird question. You don't think the fact that it's unreasonable to complain about balance because of unreasonable player expectations for satisfying  their overly constrained requirements  doesn't have a place in a discussion about what is reasonable for balance?

I think it does. It think it's core to the problem. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Obtena.7952