Projectile Immunty

[Malus.2184]

Nerf this hard in both PvP and WvW, I just played an unranked match and my team got shut down hard because the opposing team could stack reflects and projectile blocks. Having any one thing completely nullify another style of gameplay is bad balance. If one aspect is too good then rebalance that instead of creating hard counters. It's disgusting! And yes, Revealed as a thing that everyone can get in WvW is also disgusting. Reduce how often a player can enter Stealth instead.

[Downstate.4697]

You play dead eye dont you

[Malus.2184]

2 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

You play dead eye dont you

I could play any Profession/Spec and it would still be the same. Counters are okay. Hard counters like these are bad for everyone since pretty much everyone has something ranged that this completely shuts down.

Think of your own Spec. How many choices do you have that are projectiles that you can never use because of these anti-projectile abilities

Edited October 15, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Stalima.5490]

I think the worst one is the necromancer projectile block because it is not clear at all that the ability is even active nevermind blocking projectiles, being a flat zone rather than big bubble like most.

[Malus.2184]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

I think the worst one is the necromancer projectile block because it is not clear at all that the ability is even active nevermind blocking projectiles, being a flat zone rather than big bubble like most.

Definitely. The pug I faced was a Weaver, a Scrapper, a Necro, a Guardian, and something else. My team had almost all of their abilities at range. It was the definition of unfun and two people were able to rip five people apart as they could completely shut them down for 10 seconds. Had the Weaver completely ROFL-stomping five people at one point as we could do nothing what-so-ever to stop her while she was free to unload on us.

The only way projectile imunities are fair in PvP and WvW are if they're channelled abilities that only persists for as long as the user does nothing else. Right now, they're just free damage abilities.

P. S. And now I expect everyone with ranged immunities to go "L2P noob," or something in those viens since to them it's perfectly fair, hard counters are just a reflection of their skill. An experiment where two people played Monopoly and one side had completely unfair rules advantages and won with ease was in the vast majority of cases interpreted by them as their skill only.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Malus.2184

[ASP.8093]

This is why most Deadeyes end up running Dagger/Pistol for their other set. (The teleport-and-blind portion of Shadow Shot is unblockable so you can use it to engage or chase even if the opponent has projectile blocks up.)

[JunkJunk.8971]

So match loads. You see all that reflect change your load out to include melee.  Problem solved.    This is a you issue and not adjusting to the game match up

[Malus.2184]

And I see people running defense for bad design because they're used to it. No hard counters should ever exist to anything, it's severely unbalanced in PvP and WvW. One thing if they were like Block mechanics that only protected themselves so you could switch targets and/or they would eventually run out, and the reality is the opposite. A Weaver can run 15+ seconds of AoE Projectile Immunty, followed by the Scrapper doing 5 seconds, followed by the Necro doing five, then the Guardian doing five, and finally the Weaver can use add some more. This is at the least 30 seconds of total immunity to ranged damage while they can freely just run in a group and murk whoever is in front of them.

You would scream your head off if any team could present 30+ seconds of AoE block while they still pounded on you since the ranged options for some Specs is poor, and of the same concept the melee option for some ranged specs is poor. Mesmer never even have a solid melee option aside from a few skills as almost all of their direct damage abilities are classified as range.

[Downstate.4697]

I do think this game has evolved enough to no longer need full ranged denial. Mostly mag aura though.

[Malus.2184]

9 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

I do think this game has evolved enough to no longer need full ranged denial. Mostly mag aura though.

Indeed, and if there still should be, since those abilities would need to be replaced with something then Reflect should be a personal effect only and channelled while AoE fields should be stationary and unable to stop projectiles created within the field.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Malus.2184

[saerni.2584]

As mobility has increased across professions the "ranged has an unfair advantage to attack me while I can't hit them" has become less and less relevant. There is also the fact that projectiles can generally be obstructed by terrain or objects while melee effects can go through walls, which is to say that projectiles are relatively more subject to counter play via environment. But that doesn't mean all projectile immunity needs to go away either because it does add complexity and choices (we should be wary of removing things that counter our specific niche just because we refuse to play differently).
 

Projectile immunity fields are generally fine because they have limited area, duration, etc. Visibility is an issue for some of these fields though so it wouldn't be a bad idea to advocate for some changes in that area.
 

Auras are where it becomes more difficult because there is no direct counter play (strips should remove auras even if not giving the stripping player a boon) and visibility is a struggle (I'm color blind and have some difficulty distinguishing certain auras without looking at the boon bar, which is not fun). Auras move with the player so there is nothing to do positionally (unlike fields). Aura share means there may not be an option to switch targets because everyone is personally immune until the aura drops.

 

I'd say that ranged should never have a clear advantage over melee. Projectile blocking helps with that. But, with certain combinations (like auras) on top of everything else, melee doesn't just *not* have a disadvantage it has an advantage over ranged builds that is significantly one sided. I'd acknowledge that there *is* counter play in swapping to melee when projectile immunity is active. However, I'd also point out that "just don't use ranged" feels very limiting for a number of professions/specializations (not just Deadeye) when melee never has to think about swapping to even be inherently capable of doing damage (can still do damage even if standing on an AoE is going to hurt).

 

Not that I'd expect much attention to this (larger issues to address with profession balance) but that's my 2c on the subject for what it's worth.

[Downstate.4697]

Im a fan of removing the aura share trait if they made shouts all provide an aura and gave them all ammo. Pve players would never let that happen though.

[ZoXLike.9073]

23 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

I could play any Profession/Spec and it would still be the same. Counters are okay. Hard counters like these are bad for everyone since pretty much everyone has something ranged that this completely shuts down.

Think of your own Spec. How many choices do you have that are projectiles that you can never use because of these anti-projectile abilities

As condi Weaver i see no problem there. Power Specter same, nearly no projectiles.
Then play this Specs xD

[Ferus.3165]

8 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Indeed, and if there still should be, since those abilities would need to be replaced with something then Reflect should be a personal effect only and channelled while AoE fields should be stationary and unable to stop projectiles created within the field.

engineer shield 4 is a good example for how such a skills should look like. And imo even magnetic aura is far to strong for how often tempest can use it AND give it to 4 allies around them.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Don't have a team where you got 4-5 projectile users. You need stacks and stack of anti projectile just to play the game at all as is. 

 

And it's not "immunity," unblockable attacks make it useless. Or you can wait 10 seconds and go to other objectives. It's not like we have multiple game modes where you can't just do that at the moment.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Eddbopkins.2630

[Kuma.1503]

I am fully in support of turning Corrosive poison cloud into a fart dome.

I want to see my projectiles evaporate into a cloud of last night's taco bell. 

[stormemperor.3745]

A well timed magnetic aura kittens the other team so bad, they won't even bother to attack anymore.

I love it when support tempest focus l4, e4 and magnetic aura utility, where they proceed to overload afterwards to give projectile reflect for good 20 seconds.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Maybe anet shouldn't have removed unblockable from certain traits, ex unstoppable union iirc.

[Malus.2184]

15 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

Don't have a team where you got 4-5 projectile users. You need stacks and stack of anti projectile just to play the game at all as is. 

In pugs for unranked you have no choice. And doing the absudum ad reductio on your arguments it.

"Don't have a team where you got 4-5 melees. You need stacks of AoE blocks just to play the game at all as it is." If there was melee version of reflect and AoE block.

If there was then you'd be screaming your head off about how unfair it was, which I agree with and it would be a similar hypothetical scenario as the objectively real one that exists right now for ranged.

If ranged is an issue then do something about ranged. I have suggested that when dealing damage on ranged over a contextual range trshold have them deal reduced damage. It's fair that they deal full  damage in melee else melee would objectively be better. Issue mostly solved and projectile immunities can be given the pink slip as it is.

[Ragnar.4257]

48 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

In pugs for unranked you have no choice. And doing the absudum ad reductio on your arguments it.

"Don't have a team where you got 4-5 melees. You need stacks of AoE blocks just to play the game at all as it is." If there was melee version of reflect and AoE block.

If there was then you'd be screaming your head off about how unfair it was, which I agree with and it would be a similar hypothetical scenario as the objectively real one that exists right now for ranged.

If ranged is an issue then do something about ranged. I have suggested that when dealing damage on ranged over a contextual range trshold have them deal reduced damage. It's fair that they deal full  damage in melee else melee would objectively be better. Issue mostly solved and projectile immunities can be given the pink slip as it is.

????????

There is a huge long list of stuff that effectively denies melee and which doesn't affect ranged.

Shocking Aura

General pulsing ground-targeted AoE. Good luck melee'ing a target which is sat in a few necro/spectre wells.

Cripple/Chill/Immobilize, Teleport/Shadowstep, Superspeed - can't melee a target if you can't reach it

The inherent higher risk of having to go into melee rather than pewpewing from a safe no-TP spot. If you're on low HP and an enemy reaper is going spin-to-win on the node or an enemy shiro/untamed/WB/DD is looking for a chance to port onto you, you basically have to just sit out until its safe to go back in. A ranged build can keep happily DPS'ing without pausing.

If you hadn't noticed, up to the last patch the meta was dominated by specs that were heavily (although not exclusively) projectile based. Ranged classes aren't struggling. Infact its because ranged classes have been dominating so much that people have been taking more and more projectile block/reflect in their builds.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Downstate.4697]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

????????

There is a huge long list of stuff that effectively denies melee and which doesn't affect ranged.

Shocking Aura

General pulsing ground-targeted AoE. Good luck melee'ing a target which is sat in a few necro/spectre wells.

Cripple/Chill/Immobilize, Teleport/Shadowstep, Superspeed - can't melee a target if you can't reach it

The inherent higher risk of having to go into melee rather than pewpewing from a safe no-TP spot. If you're on low HP and an enemy reaper is going spin-to-win on the node or an enemy shiro/untamed/WB/DD is looking for a chance to port onto you, you basically have to just sit out until its safe to go back in. A ranged build can keep happily DPS'ing without pausing.

If you hadn't noticed, up to the last patch the meta was dominated by specs that were heavily (although not exclusively) projectile based. Ranged classes aren't struggling. Infact its because ranged classes have been dominating so much that people have been taking more and more projectile block/reflect in their builds.

These are good points, I didnt consider before. Maybe adjustments to mag aura is the only thing that is needed or maybe anet thinks its fine if you consider the above

[Malus.2184]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:22 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

General pulsing ground-targeted AoE. Good luck melee'ing a target which is sat in a few necro/spectre wells.

You're encouraged to stop doing melee damage while they're up and if you use a general damage prevention you can still go into this and do your thing. While this is a counter it's highly different from being a hard counter as the fields themselves never prevents you from doing damage, it just gives you a penalty if you do.

On 10/17/2022 at 5:22 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

Cripple/Chill/Immobilize, Teleport/Shadowstep, Superspeed - can't melee a target if you can't reach it

None of those are counters, and you can use gap closers and immobilasations to shorten the distance as well as remove them with Condi removal, none of them are hard coutners as they can be dealt with.

On 10/17/2022 at 5:22 PM, Ragnar.4257 said:

If you hadn't noticed, up to the last patch the meta was dominated by specs that were heavily (although not exclusively) projectile based. Ranged classes aren't struggling. Infact its because ranged classes have been dominating so much that people have been taking more and more projectile block/reflect in their builds.

"And this makes it justified that one ability completely negates several others as the only thing in the game."

Edited October 20, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Malus.2184]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Shocking Aura

And  this specifically is only present on one Profession if they have a certain ability that should be looked at since it strips stab almost instantly and it still does nothing to justify that virtually everyone has Reflect bubbles.

To make it equal only one Profession should have it. Your analogy makes no sense if critical thinking is applied to it.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

In pugs for unranked you have no choice. 

 

Why on earth is unranked being mentioned? If you want people to listen to you, get into ranked...

Projectile block is only a thing if your entire team keeps dying at mid and doesn't actually play the game--which considering you mention unranked and PUG so much is kind of obvious that it's a L2P thing.

The point of a lot of those hate bubbles btw is so you don't get insta-deleted by something like a rifle engineer just pressing '1' at 1200.  Competent players will throw a projectile block up, close the gap, and get +5 points for their team.  

EDIT: Also, for melee--you aren't just discouraged from mindlessly jumping into traps/wells.  If you do jump into them it's almost certain death as you'd have to blow defenses to get out when avoidance is preferable in almost all situations.  

Edited October 17, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Malus.2184]

On 10/18/2022 at 12:15 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Why on earth is unranked being mentioned? If you want people to listen to you, get into ranked...

Because it still happens, and if you want more people in Ranked then they need to have significantly fewer unfun experiences in Unranked. I only keep going with even Unraked because I need the tracks. Just he knowledge that hard counters exist is enough to never even want to bother with Ranked. And this kind of opinion is more common than you'd think. The theory of the Zone of proximal control describes this kind of outcome specifically.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Malus.2184