Research Notes are antagonistic to players

[Gehenna.3625]

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

As a very casual player, I have never had an ascended drop.  So, this method gate-keeps players like me from really gaining any research notes.

Did you ever get any of these weapons? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Specialization_Collections

[Silent.6137]

53 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Those rushing to online guides and the like, doing research to play a game, are a tiny portion of the total population. I am not saying that players, some, dont research efficiencies in game play. I am saying that when considering the playerbase as a whole such is not generally the case. If the playerbase as a whole was doing so then those efficient farms would not work.

Ah, you're arguing something by just focusing on just a part of what I said. You ignored the next sentence "You'll hear it being discussed or asked constantly in big guilds." and make it sounds like I said online guides were the only way players kept themselves informed.

It's everything together. Infos about the best, easiest, fastest, cheapest, etc., are spread through all medium. Nothing stays hidden for long.

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

As a very casual player, I have never had an ascended drop.  So, this method gate-keeps players like me from really gaining any research notes.

You kept stressing that you're a Casual Player. Does that means you don't do any Instanced Contents or do any achievements collections whatsoever? There are many story achievements that reward Ascended items as well.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Ah, you're arguing something by just focusing on just a part of what I said. You ignored the next sentence "You'll hear it being discussed or asked constantly in big guilds." and make it sounds like I said online guides were the only way players kept themselves informed.

It's everything together. Infos about the best, easiest, fastest, cheapest, etc., are spread through all medium. Nothing stays hidden for long.

Suuure. The same way how meta builds spread easily throughout many media... and yet we still have a majority of players doing 4k dps not because they want to, but because they genuinely have no idea they have to improve (and how to improve).

Most players do not read third party sites. They do not look for information on reddit etc. They do not even read forums. And they are not part of major guilds either. And a large part of people that do know of those methods do not actually use them, because it's simply not how they play the game.

As such, most players are really, really bad at efficiently gaining gold, And that's the primary reason why those methods do still work.

On the other hand, the whole process of gaining research notes from Ascended gear (with stat conversion method) is in no way less convoluted than many methods of obtaining value from skill points. If you can do one, you can do the other. And, of course, if you are in need of Research notes in the first place, you're likely aiming for legendaries or other endgame stuff, so you are quite likely to be well informed (or at least have the knowledge and habits that let you get informed if you so choose). This does not meah you have to use all those the opportunities, but refusing to use them it does not make them stop existing.

In short, you're right - if everyone was using those opportunities, they would cease to exist. Which is why by ignoring them and pretending they do not work you are actually making them work. So, i guess i have to thank you for that.

 

 

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Suuure. The same way how meta builds spread easily throughout many media... and yet we still have a majority of players doing 4k dps not because they want to, but because they genuinely have no idea they have to improve (and how to improve).

Equating meta build with Fast and Easy ways to make gold? Those that use those sites often don't even understand the builds. They just copy the template and mash keys.

Infos about making newfound quick and easy gold spread through game chats as well, not just external media. That's why they become less lucrative very fast. Stop ignoring that part which I kept repeating.

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Which is why by ignoring them and pretending they do not work you are actually making them work.

Was there anywhere in my comments that indicated I ignored and pretended that they do not work? My stance has always been that they are not worth as much as you claimed. And that there are better and cheaper ways to get the Notes. You're welcome to get rich and be a TP Baron from that. And I'll stick to my methods.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Equating meta build with Fast and Easy ways to make gold? Those that use those sites often don't even understand the builds. They just copy the template and mash keys.

Yes. And that alone results in massive dps increases. And yet most people still do 4k.

12 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Infos about making newfound quick and easy gold spread through game chats as well, not just external media. That's why they become less lucrative very fast. Stop ignoring that part which I kept repeating.

Oh, i know. Some of the most outrageous and easiest methods do spread indeed. But you are the best example of how that does not work as well as you think it does - you know of one method of gaining gold, and yet keep ignoring it because "it cannot work", "it's not as much gains as people claim" (or because "it's too much bother").

BTW, you know what easy to use method exists that is of significant help, is extremely easy to use, is being mentioned everywhere, and yet is being used only by a relatively minor part of the game population? Using sell orders when selling and buy orders when buying. Majority of players still do it the other way around.

12 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Was there anywhere in my comments that indicated I ignored and pretended that they do not work? My stance has always been that they are not worth as much as you claimed.

Indeed. And yet they are.

12 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

And that there are better and cheaper ways to get the Notes. You're welcome to get rich and be a TP Baron from that. And I'll stick to my methods.

Cool.

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, i know. Some of the most outrageous and easiest methods do spread indeed. But you are the best example of how that does not work as well as you think it does - you know of one method of gaining gold, and yet keep ignoring it because "it cannot work", "it's not as much gains as people claim" (or because "it's too much bother").

He does have a point though. If gold gain depends on selling stuff on the TP, then the more people do it, the less it nets because supply increases massively. So they work as long as not too many people do it.

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

BTW, you know what easy to use method exists that is of significant help, is extremely easy to use, is being mentioned everywhere, and yet is being used only by a relatively minor part of the game population? Using sell orders when selling and buy orders when buying. Majority of players still do it the other way around.

There are downsides to this though. Of course, there is the time factor as well as over-cutting and under-cutting. So you can't rely on this. If something is priced at 10g on the buying side and  you post your buying order it at 10g 1c and the next person set's it at 10g 2c and the next 10g 3c to the point that there are many orders, well, your buying order may have to wait a long, long time if it ever gets resolved at the price you set.

Same thing on the selling side. So beyond instant gratification, there are issues with what you say. It's not as straightforward, and as the point was, the more people do this the less effective it becomes. And you do have to pay a listing fee every time that you don't get back.

You really have to be aware of the ebb and flow of item prices to make this work well. I think all in all what you suggest is true but it's not as easy as you suggest. And like I said above, if everybody started doing this the prices difference between buying and selling orders will eventually even out, as is the case already with a lot of items on the TP.

[Gibson.4036]

Jumping in to point out that people sitting on valuable mats but still complaining they are poor is partly a function of the complexity of the game ten years in. GW2 Efficiency tells me I’m sitting on a couple thousand gold in my material storage.

I’ve been working on my ascended trinkets, The Ascension is next, and I’ve still got quite a bit stored for a gen 3 weapon. But some of my mats are worth money and I’ll probably never use them.

The problem is it’d take a good amount of research and note-taking to confidently identify what I can safely sell. I read guides, visit meta build sites, watch streamers, but charting out materials is a bit too much homework too be fun for me.

More than once I’ve sold off something only to find later it was needed for something I didn’t realize was in the game and later found I wanted. So I sit on a chunk of gold I could otherwise use.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Gibson.4036]

On 10/22/2022 at 11:30 PM, Smurfiness.3714 said:

After bread what's the cheapest way to get notes?

This site lists cost/note of various items and dynamically updates based on TP prices.

https://fast.farming-community.eu/open-world/salvageable-research-note

[Silent.6137]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

But you are the best example of how that does not work as well as you think it does - you know of one method of gaining gold, and yet keep ignoring it because "it cannot work", "it's not as much gains as people claim" (or because "it's too much bother").

It works darn well. You kept ignoring the fact that I said that's not the easiest and fastest way. It is a way to make gold but definitely not the best way. Although I do use them when circumstances dictate, why would I want to focus on a lesser method?

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

BTW, you know what easy to use method exists that is of significant help, is extremely easy to use, is being mentioned everywhere, and yet is being used only by a relatively minor part of the game population? Using sell orders when selling and buy orders when buying. Majority of players still do it the other way around.

Asked and answered countless times. Reasons are not even remotely mysterious. I had even mentioned it in one of my previous comments in this thread. Gehenna.3625 above, also gave you pretty much similar answers, which I suspect you already knew.

[Astralporing.1957]

40 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

It works darn well. You kept ignoring the fact that I said that's not the easiest and fastest way. It is a way to make gold but definitely not the best way. Although I do use them when circumstances dictate, why would I want to focus on a lesser method?

Because it would let you get 3-4 times more research notes?

I mean, i get it, you'd rather overpay though a nose than be bothered to make a more efficient use of your resources. That's fine - a lot of players do that (which is why those more efficient methods still work). Just do not pretend the methods you decided on are so much better than they really are.

Edit: and on that comment i will end my participation in that derail.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 Just do not pretend the methods you decided on are so much better than they really are.

Question: Why do some of you on this forum kept using words such as pretend, lying, etc., if someone has a different viewpoint that yours? Can't debate topics without getting personal? And always the same few individuals. Look through your comments just in this thread alone, and you'll see you have used them several times because someone do not agree with your narratives.

My answers has not changed but yet you kept responding in different words as if I haven't addressed the exact same point you had made earlier.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Silent.6137

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 10/19/2022 at 6:09 PM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

So..I'm going to go even further than just the research notes. There is just a LOT of redundant loot in this game. Rewards that don't really serve a purpose other than to say, "Here ya go! Congratulations! (pat pat)"

Map currencies are the biggest culprit, imo. They're so redundant that a WALLET was needed just to keep track of them. Just an unnecessary middle layer between the player and the actual reward chest. Bags for "choosing" your own reward are another. Obsidian shards are another, although I admit they're more of a problem for pvp/wvw players. Select rewards for achievement chests are another(Are the Queen Jennah minis and repair kits really necessary?) This is just off the top of my head, I'm completely sure there's more...

The game just hands out so much loot that people have to actively manage it, lest they be completely inundated with it.

Sad part is that while the wallet was intended to support currencies for different game modes and other very specific barriers for new currencies as to not take inventory space (I.E.: Endgame dungeon content for us old folks), the original intent around Karma was exactly this, as to circumvent this silliness of having a ton of currencies which all invalidate past progress and play time as the new shinies roll in, and let players get loot  they actually want by just doing their favorite content, while providing incentive for players to populate and do the content in the old/completed core game maps.

Where'd it go truly bad?  Expansion content, or preparations thereof, and forsaking the core game.

I had a wall-o-text criticizing every facet of the announcement of an expansion in the old forums that outlined all of these likely problems, met with much contention about how "it won't ever be a big deal."

[Linken.6345]

25 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Sad part is that while the wallet was intended to support currencies for different game modes and other very specific barriers for new currencies as to not take inventory space (I.E.: Endgame dungeon content for us old folks), the original intent around Karma was exactly this, as to circumvent this silliness of having a ton of currencies which all invalidate past progress and play time as the new shinies roll in, and let players get loot  they actually want by just doing their favorite content, while providing incentive for players to populate and do the content in the old/completed core game maps.

Where'd it go truly bad?  Expansion content, or preparations thereof, and forsaking the core game.

I had a wall-o-text criticizing every facet of the announcement of an expansion in the old forums that outlined all of these likely problems, met with much contention about how "it won't ever be a big deal."

And it is not a big deal why would you not play the new content to get the new stuff?

The point tho research notes dont drop from new content like past currensies do

Edit

And yea Im saying this sitting on 77m karma.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Linken.6345

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

And it is not a big deal why would you not play the new content to get the new stuff?

One of the core design ideas was for old content to never become obsolete. Map/expansion specific currencies that stop being relevant after you leave said map/expansion go directly against that idea. They are a part of a new design direction, that revolves around planned obsolescence. That's a 180-degrees reversal of design direction on a feature that was from the beginning considered a major point - if that's not a big deal, then what is?

[kharmin.7683]

10 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

And yea Im saying this sitting on 77m karma.

And here I thought I had a lot with my measly 11m

[Linken.6345]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

One of the core design ideas was for old content to never become obsolete. Map/expansion specific currencies that stop being relevant after you leave said map/expansion go directly against that idea. They are a part of a new design direction, that revolves around planned obsolescence. That's a 180-degrees reversal of design direction on a feature that was from the beginning considered a major point - if that's not a big deal, then what is?

Dont you see how dead new content would be if old players like me could just buy what we wanted instead of playing them?

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

One of the core design ideas was for old content to never become obsolete.

And it didn't become obsolete just because you also need to play through new content to get some of the rewards.

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Map/expansion specific currencies that stop being relevant after you leave said map/expansion go directly against that idea

But if you no longer play those areas, you're no longer accumulating their respective currencies, so what's the issue here?

6 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

They are a part of a new design direction, that revolves around planned obsolescence. That's a 180-degrees reversal of design direction on a feature that was from the beginning considered a major point - if that's not a big deal, then what is?

No, that's not what it is. If there were no map/content-specific currencies, long term players would instantly buy out anything that comes out on-release. Meanwhile there are still more universal currencies to make sure you're still getting rewards for playing other content, including the old one you somehow claim is up for "planned obsolescence" when it's not.

[SlayerXX.7138]

7 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

One of the core design ideas was for old content to never become obsolete. Map/expansion specific currencies that stop being relevant after you leave said map/expansion go directly against that idea. They are a part of a new design direction, that revolves around planned obsolescence. That's a 180-degrees reversal of design direction on a feature that was from the beginning considered a major point - if that's not a big deal, then what is?

Did you think that one through? Map currencies are as old as HoT at the very least. In addition to that you should keep in mind a critical mass of players, play the game with almost perfect knowledge. If their weren't some "forced" way to split people up it would boil down which map gives that biggest reward. It does already, but removing the Map specific currencies would worsen that state by a lot.

Don't get me wrong research Notes are a annoying system, that didn't have enough thought put into it. Currencies can be good, Research notes specifically are not.

[Gibson.4036]

58 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

 If their weren't some "forced" way to split people up it would boil down which map gives that biggest reward. It does already, but removing the Map specific currencies would worsen that state by a lot.

Not entirely. Gold demonstrates it. People still spread out over a variety of different gold farms in spite of them giving different rates of return. People still regularly do RIBA even though it returns less than Drizzlewood or Dragonfall.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Dont you see how dead new content would be if old players like me could just buy what we wanted instead of playing them?

Oh, i know why they made that change. Whether good or bad however you can't really say it was not a 180 degrees change to one of the core ideas of the game, or that it was not a major thing. Because it definitely was both.

[Sobx.1758]

23 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Not entirely. Gold demonstrates it. People still spread out over a variety of different gold farms in spite of them giving different rates of return. People still regularly do RIBA even though it returns less than Drizzlewood or Dragonfall.

Sure people can still spread, but in this case... not everyone has drizzlewood/dragonfall and everyone has access to riba.

 

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Whether good or bad however you can't really say it was not a 180 degrees change to one of the core ideas of the game, or that it was not a major thing. Because it definitely was both.

It wasn't, seeing how content-specific currencies aren't really a new concept here.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 10/24/2022 at 8:14 PM, Linken.6345 said:

And it is not a big deal why would you not play the new content to get the new stuff?

The point tho research notes dont drop from new content like past currensies do

Edit

And yea Im saying this sitting on 77m karma.

Because players who don't play PvE like myself already don't do so.  So we sit in millions of dead currency (Karma) that literally provides absolutely no value.  At best, "playing" new content for us is setting a reward track in a UI menu.

Not like we're getting high-tier bags or anything, either, while being bombarded with inventory-clogging BS.

People will gravitate to playing the game in whatever ways they think is fun.

I mean just looking at core, for some people that meant spamming the Queensdale train, others went for the WBT, others for dungeons, others for Arah dynamic events, others doing Karkas, etc.

Churning through new content treadmills for loot isn't a very good defense of the gameplay being quality moreso as the arbitrary fear that fewer players will do the content if it isn't very popular or fun... which is kind of what my point is.

Edited October 26, 2022 by DeceiverX.8361

[zealex.9410]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:26 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

As a very casual player, I have never had an ascended drop.  So, this method gate-keeps players like me from really gaining any research notes.

I very casually play fractals and i get asc loot from the chests

[Gehenna.3625]

On 10/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

And here I thought I had a lot with my measly 11m

If it helps, I have 1.5m karma.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Research notes could be made less awful if you could salvage any exotic or ascended. That would make raid and strike drops feel worthwhile, many of the armors are only 30s now.