How can I take this universe seriously when the writers can't?

[Dib.4612]

In the story there are too many jokes. Take 'Pantheon of the Wild' for example. My norn character even disrespects the eagle spirit completely by calling it 'at least the 28th all powerful entity to ask me x'. Too much of it plays out like a comedy sketch rather than an engaging fantasy story.
This is why I really liked Darkrime Delves, none of that nonsense. There are of course more moments in the story that don't feature that nonsense, but too much of it does.

[zeyeti.8347]

Matter of taste i would say , i personnaly enjoy puns : taimi stating that rox and braham equall many marjorys and kasmeer , just for weight safety on a bridge , politely saying rox and braham are fat or chuncky.

I think the game is taking it too seriously as opposed. 

"I am The commander , i killed an army , a dragon , a god , and whatever evil entity is in front of me , i ...."

"hey commander my chamber pot is dirty can you clean it ? " (veijhin palace for those who knows).

Always make me giggle when i think about it.

Edited October 23, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Fueki.4753]

If you can't take the story seriously, don't force yourself to try doing so.

I haven't taken it seriously since Season 3 due to the absolute disrespect that was done to Balthazar and the Shining Blade.

There have been a few highlights here and there, like the Be my Guest instance in season 4, episode three, but most of the story hasn't been too good since season 3. It's been mostly spectacular, overly shiny, visual fluff.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Kalavier.1097]

Fail to see how that's disrespecting eagle, but instead just being fed up with having to prove to each individual spirit they are capable enough.

This is a remarkably subjective question, as plenty of people are able to take this universe seriously, and I'm sure that includes the writers. Just because a certain chapter doesn't click with you doesn't change how anybody approaches the setting.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Plenty of the early stuff was pretty goofy too. 

[Farohna.6247]

I liked that line.  It conveyed how world weary and exasperated with having to play games and jump through hoops to save the world the commander is at this point.  World's on fire...oh here can you pick some flowers and fold some towels before I give you the information you need.  It's a poke at the menial tasks and lectures that heroes are often given.  You've never had an ok let's just get on with it moment?

[Fueki.4753]

18 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

I liked that line.  It conveyed how world weary and exasperated with having to play games and jump through hoops to save the world the commander is at this point.  World's on fire...oh here can you pick some flowers and fold some towels before I give you the information you need.  It's a poke at the menial tasks and lectures that heroes are often given.  You've never had an ok let's just get on with it moment?

I liked that part as well.

But given the call from Rytlock during the adventure and the resulting annoyed bird screech of the commander, I believe that whole part with Eagle was supposed to be a small comedic interlude though.

 

[Farohna.6247]

Just now, Fueki.4753 said:

I liked that part as well.

But given the call from Rytlock during the adventure and the resulting annoyed bird screech of the commander, I believe that whole part with Eagle was supposed to be a small comedic interlude though.

 

True, there is a pause there for a little more levity.  I personally didn't find it over the top though, and less cringe than some of parts of the personal story.  I agree that the story sometimes makes odd choices in when to interject humor or not taking a situation seriously enough (this is a common problem in films and other story medium at this time, don't always need a witty comeback).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

An issue that GW2 has is that it has, what some in the internet has lately been calling "the MCU writing" (or "the Marvel writing"), where jokes are constantly shoved into serious moments. Makes it hard to treat even the most dramatic and worrisome moments seriously, since it'll soon be interrupted with a quip from a character making light of the situation, as you often see done in MCU movies.

It has been in the GW writing since, well, Nightfall really. But it's only slowly and steadily gotten far more frequent. Nightfall at least kept it to just a couple main cast (Koss, Norgu, Goren mainly) and side quests, Eye of the North and Beyond was mostly the same, keeping the quips to a small portion of the main cast and side content. Core GW2 has such a large and constantly changing cast that nearly everyone quips because the cast swaps out next chapter, but within an isolated chapter you're usually with only a handful of quippers. But with Season 2 onward, pretty much the whole main cast are quippers who make jokes like "your hair is standing up!" during The Machine when the PC just came out of the machine that drove Scarlet insane while ranting and raving about dragons looking at them - still among the worst writing moments in the game for me (more so for sylvari who don't have hair...).

Edited October 24, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[anninke.7469]

I like the one with standing hair. To me it sounds very much like a slightly awkward joke you say when you feel greatly relieved. And as a sylvari main I've never considered it nowhere near as disturbing as Kasmeer having to arrange a meeting with my own mother... Like what the kitten, I don't remember having been cast out. And that one was meant seriously which makes it even worse.

But overall the puns have run out of control over time and I'd prefer Anet to use them with a little more care. Or maybe I'm just getting old.

[Fueki.4753]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

more so for sylvari who don't have hair...

I always thought they were talking about Taimi's hair in that scene.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

3 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

I like the one with standing hair. To me it sounds very much like a slightly awkward joke you say when you feel greatly relieved. And as a sylvari main I've never considered it nowhere near as disturbing as Kasmeer having to arrange a meeting with my own mother... Like what the kitten, I don't remember having been cast out. And that one was meant seriously which makes it even worse.

But overall the puns have run out of control over time and I'd prefer Anet to use them with a little more care. Or maybe I'm just getting old.

To be fair, most Sylvari from the current generation have never spoken the Pale Tree directly. You're just one of thousands upon thousands of children who have begun to form at an alarmingly increasing rate, to the point by the time of HoT Sylvari can die in droves and apparently still maintain their civilisation.

 

Its the firstborn and secondborn that were close to the Pale Tree, and its heavily hinted the secondborn were neglected by her, at that, which is part of why the whole Nightmare Court an Ceera stuff happened.

 

Even during the Personal Story, it was Trahearne she was having an audience with, not you.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[anninke.7469]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

To be fair, most Sylvari from the current generation have never spoken the Pale Tree directly. You're just one of thousands upon thousands of children who have begun to form at an alarmingly increasing rate, to the point by the time of HoT Sylvari can die in droves and apparently still maintain their civilisation.

 

Its the firstborn and secondborn that were close to the Pale Tree, and its heavily hinted the secondborn were neglected by her, at that, which is part of why the whole Nightmare Court an Ceera stuff happened.

 

Even during the Personal Story, it was Trahearne she was having an audience with, not you.

That's the thing. You're NOT. By the time this happens you're the one who helped Trahearne with his Wyld Hunt and killed an elder dragon as part of your own WH (or at least were a quite important part of the killing) and talked with the Pale Tree several times during the PS.  You. Not only Trahearne. I don't think that qualifies as "just one of thousands".

Even if it did, I thought being able to talk to all her children was the main reason for creating the Avatar. So having to ask a foreign land fallen from grace ex-noble to get you in touch just feels bad.

Edited October 24, 2022 by anninke.7469

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

I like the one with standing hair. To me it sounds very much like a slightly awkward joke you say when you feel greatly relieved.

It didn't really come off as an "awkward joke when relieved" to me, more that they were just... ignoring the rantings and ravings of the Commander. If it was just one person making the joke (e.g., Braham's "Praise Joko!" in War Eternal), then it would feel more like as you say to me. But it was everyone getting in on poking fun at the Commander's state.

13 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

And as a sylvari main I've never considered it nowhere near as disturbing as Kasmeer having to arrange a meeting with my own mother... Like what the kitten, I don't remember having been cast out. And that one was meant seriously which makes it even worse.

Even for non-sylvari, you met her with Trahearne and she showed personal interest in the personal story. There's nothing really keeping the Pact Commander from sending the request personally.

Ultimately, the reason why Kasmeer does it is because it's the end of the episode. They can't give the PC yet another task when all tasks are supposed to be over. And since there's no Trahearne of Caithe, Kasmeer is the only one in the group with the connections to do this formal action. It's a contrivance born from the limitations of the episodic LW structure and the point of where they decided to end the episode's narrative.

 

In counter, if The Machine instance was the beginning of Episode 3, then the PC would have most likely just gone to the Grove themselves to request that audience.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Animism.7530]

Prophecies had the best story of the series. I'd probably put Nightfall next, then parts of IBS - I did like Jormag as a villain. Balthazar was a literal god of war and somehow was made into a trivial boss, like every other. 

Some of the worst parts of the story are Kas, Jory and Taimi (because the Asura have been made way too parodical). Rytlock also lost all his gravitas. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Ashantara.8731]

The portrayal of the Spirits of the Wild in the Icebrood Saga was plain awful. As was the voice acting for them.

ANet really knows how to ruin mythology and legend (see what they did to the Shining Blade during Season 3, or to the Fallen God Balthazar ... ugh).
 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Even for non-sylvari, you met her with Trahearne and she showed personal interest in the personal story. There's nothing really keeping the Pact Commander from sending the request personally.

Ultimately, the reason why Kasmeer does it is because it's the end of the episode. They can't give the PC yet another task when all tasks are supposed to be over. And since there's no Trahearne of Caithe, Kasmeer is the only one in the group with the connections to do this formal action. It's a contrivance born from the limitations of the episodic LW structure and the point of where they decided to end the episode's narrative.

Was that not also tied to setting up a formal meeting of world leaders, or did that come later? Cause having Kasmeer set it up could, in universe have it be clear that this is about something important vs just trying to meet up with the tree for advice.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Was that not also tied to setting up a formal meeting of world leaders, or did that come later? Cause having Kasmeer set it up could, in universe have it be clear that this is about something important vs just trying to meet up with the tree for advice.

It was the preparation before setting up formal meetings with the world leaders. It was basically "we need to talk to the Pale Tree about the vision I have, and then gather the other world leaders to combat Mordremoth".

Kasmeer: Can you explain more about what you saw? What do you think it means?
PC: It's hard to describe. The Pale Tree was in my vision, represented by the symbol we saw on the drawing in Scarlet's room. We have to go talk to her.
Kasmeer: In the Grove? Do you think she can help you make sense of your vision?
PC: She may be our greatest ally. It's time to make the world aware of Mordremoth.
Kasmeer: Yes, I see. We should talk to her. How do you think we should make the world aware? That sounds like a big job.
PC: We need to let leaders know. If we're lucky, they'll listen.
Kasmeer: So you don't just want to inform them. You want to get them to work together against Mordremoth?
PC: I can't imagine any greater or more urgent threat than Mordremoth.
Kasmeer: True. Between the endangered waypoints, the corrupted Mordrem, and the vines spreading underground as far as the Shiverpeaks toward our hoards of magical items, I don't see how they could disagree.
PC: We'll find a way. But first, we need to talk to the Pale Tree.
Kasmeer: You're reaching for the stars. How can we pull that off? You're well respected, but will that be enough?
PC: We'll take it one step at a time. And this journey begins with the Pale Tree.
Kasmeer: All right. You know we'd follow you anywhere. I'll send a request for an audience to the Grove. (sigh) But before I meet you there, I want to stop by the Reach and check on Jory.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Dib.4612]

On 10/23/2022 at 2:17 PM, Fueki.4753 said:

If you can't take the story seriously, don't force yourself to try doing so.

I haven't taken it seriously since Season 3 due to the absolute disrespect that was done to Balthazar and the Shining Blade.

There have been a few highlights here and there, like the Be my Guest instance in season 4, episode three, but most of the story hasn't been too good since season 3. It's been mostly spectacular, overly shiny, visual fluff.

I don't and I won't force myself to take it seriously. But there are some good parts that do give me an immersive feeling and make me realize how cool the story mode in this game could be. And also make me realize how much of it is some kind of comedy sketch (that I personally don't find very funny).

[Mount Mazama.2917]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:13 AM, Dib.4612 said:

In the story there are too many jokes. Take 'Pantheon of the Wild' for example. My norn character even disrespects the eagle spirit completely by calling it 'at least the 28th all powerful entity to ask me x'. Too much of it plays out like a comedy sketch rather than an engaging fantasy story.
This is why I really liked Darkrime Delves, none of that nonsense. There are of course more moments in the story that don't feature that nonsense, but too much of it does.

I think most people play this game for it's raw mechanics (combat system) and MMO-centric game modes and content offerings (endgame). If anyone bought this game primarily to play the story then I think they made a mistake. They make games that tell great fleshed out fantastic stories, these are the single player games that have their whole existence based in how good the story is. You can even play a visual novel game that is literally just a story. You can also read a book. There are AMAZING stories humans have told and continue to tell in many media formats. MMORPG games have never been nor claimed to be where you get an intense griping story line. Most are are here to play the MMO, I like that it doesn't take itself too seriously. Trying to act like the story is super serious and important while it is at best put together by B-tier writtters that never wrote a captivating novel or worked on the next big drama production. They could have spent 90% of the budget on the story and it still would be worse than something that exists only for the story. The reality is I skip all stories, I haven't done the main quest line for any of the expansions. I am here for rotations, PvP, WvW, Fractals, raids, getting gear to make builds I think sound fun and fashion wars. I think most people find their main insterest to exist in those options.

TLDR; They're not hiring world renown writers for this or any other MMORPG. If you really want a great story it is out there.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Libera Simio.1592

[Balor.8432]

I played gw2 just for the story I am not a fan of the melee stacking to get buffs/heals type of gameplay for grp content. I loved gw1 combat a lot more, was more flexible in types of playstyles  compared to dps/support only in gw2. Gw2 story is top 1 or 2 story for a mmo I played ties with SWTOR base game story. Though with end of dragons and IBS the story has gotten a little worse.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I personally believe - not wanting to invalidate how you feel about it, BUT - it might be more related to how there is no longer any worldbuilding rather than the fact that the story is delivered through jokes and punchlines. You can have irrevocably whacky/lunatic storylines (like Joko was in GW1 and to some extent in LS4) and still have it be delivered seriously through worldbuilding. Character development can happen in the most Seinfeld way imaginable and still occur within a serious, well established worldbuilding context. GW1 did a lot of this where you would have characters deliver "fun" lines and interesting interactions while the surroundings had plenty of lore and sidequests you could use to better understand the world - and a more rational, understandable world makes you naturally take it all more seriously.

 

This is how vanilla GW2 also was - I ensure you that you will find a lot of punchlines back there if you replay it, but I doubt you'd say Orr is anything but a tragic place that can actually convey its tragedy and is certainly not destroyed by humor. But the writing direction has gone towards reducing or, if required, nullifying worldbuilding in favor of character development (IBS: Champions being the ultimate testament to butchering previously established worldbuilding in favor of character growth). And that makes it harder for you to take the world seriously, because you are not being shown the world, only specific POVs from given characters, and their POV of course can and will be delivered in a light-hearted manner, this being a MMO and all that.

[anninke.7469]

2 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

I personally believe - not wanting to invalidate how you feel about it, BUT - it might be more related to how there is no longer any worldbuilding rather than the fact that the story is delivered through jokes and punchlines. You can have irrevocably whacky/lunatic storylines (like Joko was in GW1 and to some extent in LS4) and still have it be delivered seriously through worldbuilding. Character development can happen in the most Seinfeld way imaginable and still occur within a serious, well established worldbuilding context. GW1 did a lot of this where you would have characters deliver "fun" lines and interesting interactions while the surroundings had plenty of lore and sidequests you could use to better understand the world - and a more rational, understandable world makes you naturally take it all more seriously.

 

This is how vanilla GW2 also was - I ensure you that you will find a lot of punchlines back there if you replay it, but I doubt you'd say Orr is anything but a tragic place that can actually convey its tragedy and is certainly not destroyed by humor. But the writing direction has gone towards reducing or, if required, nullifying worldbuilding in favor of character development (IBS: Champions being the ultimate testament to butchering previously established worldbuilding in favor of character growth). And that makes it harder for you to take the world seriously, because you are not being shown the world, only specific POVs from given characters, and their POV of course can and will be delivered in a light-hearted manner, this being a MMO and all that.

I think I really like your take on this matter. A lot.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

I personally believe - not wanting to invalidate how you feel about it, BUT - it might be more related to how there is no longer any worldbuilding rather than the fact that the story is delivered through jokes and punchlines. You can have irrevocably whacky/lunatic storylines (like Joko was in GW1 and to some extent in LS4) and still have it be delivered seriously through worldbuilding. Character development can happen in the most Seinfeld way imaginable and still occur within a serious, well established worldbuilding context. GW1 did a lot of this where you would have characters deliver "fun" lines and interesting interactions while the surroundings had plenty of lore and sidequests you could use to better understand the world - and a more rational, understandable world makes you naturally take it all more seriously.

 

This is how vanilla GW2 also was - I ensure you that you will find a lot of punchlines back there if you replay it, but I doubt you'd say Orr is anything but a tragic place that can actually convey its tragedy and is certainly not destroyed by humor. But the writing direction has gone towards reducing or, if required, nullifying worldbuilding in favor of character development (IBS: Champions being the ultimate testament to butchering previously established worldbuilding in favor of character growth). And that makes it harder for you to take the world seriously, because you are not being shown the world, only specific POVs from given characters, and their POV of course can and will be delivered in a light-hearted manner, this being a MMO and all that.

I fully agree with you, which is why I have to disagree with Tom Abernathy, who was the lead narrative designer for Season 4 to End of Dragons. In an interview, he established that he felt that character story was more important than worldbuilding or narrative, and while in some settings that's fine or even great, it doesn't really work for settings like GW, which began with worldbuilding first. It's not a universally good writing style.

Hopefully, since Tom Abernathy left with End of Dragons, and Bobby Stein who's been around since Prophecies back when GW was more focused on worldbuilding than character, and who was behind the writing for Bastion of the Penitent (one of the most serious stories in GW2 that still isn't without a joke or two), we can get a higher focus on worldbuilding and take of storytelling that isn't shoved full of jokes.

I know it isn't all on the lead narrative designer though, so it's just my hope. I do hope Indigo reigns it in a bit with the innuendo - EoD was a bit too much in that department, as funny as it was the first few times.

[ugrakarma.9416]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Hopefully, since Tom Abernathy left with End of Dragons, and Bobby Stein who's been around since Prophecies back when GW was more focused on worldbuilding than character, and who was behind the writing for Bastion of the Penitent (one of the most serious stories in GW2 that still isn't without a joke or two), we can get a higher focus on worldbuilding and take of storytelling that isn't shoved full of jokes.

fully agree.

 

One my criticisms of EoD, its that makes me feel like I'm in a psychiatric office helping people with childhood trauma.

 

I miss very much LS3 atmosphere of mystery..., in EoD i feel more absence of mystery. Cantha is just feel like a fully revelead world.