Scale the life of Bosses with the DPS of the group

[Dayra.7405]

44 minutes ago, Urud.4925 said:

Why should someone care to have a decent build and put some effort, if the boss' HP would scale down using autoattack?

If you would apply that to every oponent in the game you are right, but this is to make a few bosses harder not to scale every monster. And if the boss scales to your general performance (on opponents not affected by this) and not your actual performance on this boss, you would need longer with just auto-attacks, than with your normal play.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[PzTnT.7198]

Ah, damage attenuation. 

Warframe does this and its terrible since it turns the game from actually performing better to trying to find exploits and cheesy ways to bypass the scaling. Please don't add it here.

Instead of trying to do the most DPS you'd likely have a meta where you have a DPS target for where the scaling and damage meet up with the quickest time to kill possible.

Edited December 1, 2022 by PzTnT.7198

[Dayra.7405]

1 hour ago, PzTnT.7198 said:

it turns the game from actually performing better

I think "actually performing better" is currently to DPS-focussed, some relativation (not total negation) of DPS would be good for the game. There are other "betters" like movement, evasion, ... that you currently cannot even do as every thing focusses on DPS.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Dayra.7405

[Dyllethia.5786]

9 minutes ago, Dayra.7405 said:

I think "actually performing better" is currently to DPS-focussed, some relativation (not total negation) of DPS would be good for the game. There are other "betters" like movement, evasion, ... that you currently cannot even do as every thing focusses on DPS.

Again: you start your post with "what pro raiders want". Pro raiders don't want to be slowed down for no reason. Give us reasons to slow down or a challenge if we want to go faster. We have bosses that slow us down and people HATE them because it's a none option. It's just slow down because..... you have to....

Slowing down because of some sort of dmg mitigation or invuln or HP increase is only increasing the time it takes with no option of trying to get better and faster at it. That's what pro's want; to get faster at difficult content. Slowing us down for no reason other than "casuals can't keep up" or "they're skipping mechanics" is not challenge.

"... movement and evasion that you can't do as everything is dps focused." Movement and evasion that we've gotten used to over multiple runs and are able to do them without thinking about them. If we can avoid them by pushing dps; even better. The bigger problem is not that we need to slow encounters down, it's that pro's get too good at content at a faster rate than the casual community can keep up with so it isn't a challenge to us while remaining relevant to casuals. You increase the time it takes or mechanics or anything about it to challenge pro's and your casual community suffers. 

The content we want to be challenging also isn't open world in the first place. We live for our instanced content that scares casuals. 50 man blobs pecking at the ankles of some giant training golem isn't interesting in any way. A boss that charges your small squad with seven different mechanics out the gate, half of which will down you if you don't evade them, is what we want. This is why challenge motes are put into raids, fractals, and strikes. Once we learn the base modes we can up the difficulty. You know where challenge modes are not? Open world. Because it would separate the community and scare off casuals from wanting to attempt it.

[Sobx.1758]

19 minutes ago, Vyriis.6258 said:

Again: you start your post with "what pro raiders want". Pro raiders don't want to be slowed down for no reason.

Yup, OP's posts are so backwards (not to say just dishonest). The claim about people wanting to improve to then have their actions be rendered meaningless is just nonsense.

Not only that, but some time ago OP said something along the lines of he'll stay away from raids as long as dps matters, so he's not even talking from his perspective, he just wants to change the content into being more "succeed no matter what you press" type of deal. This is obviously far from somehow being concerned about "delivering more challenge", he wants the encounters to scale down, but instead presents it from the perspective of them scaling up to make it, I don't know, sound more well intended? 🙄

Edited December 1, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[SuavePuppy.2809]

Is it me or are these recent threads more out to lunch than usual?

[Radiancee.6537]

What we pro raiders want? Deeper mechanics.

You are just talking about DPS and it seems like you don't have a clue how Raids really work. There is a lot more to focus on instead of just high DPS. I prefer someone in my static doing 80-90% of the benchmark but playing all mechanics clean incl. solid movement instead of someone doing 100% benchmark and failing at everything else.

Even a relatively new raid squad with ~ 70% of the benchmarks can clear the content if they focus on the mechanics.

Don't talk about what we want if you actually lie. Your idea is just flawed and we don't want HP sponges that just extend the fight we already know how to play. This won't raise up the difficulty. It just makes the fight longer. A CM+ with new mechanics instead would give us new challenges. Or a new Wing.

So, talking about a CM+, here is an actually working idea:

• Emboldened Mode (kinda integrated) for new raiders
• Normal Mode (already integrated) for normal raiders
• Challenge Mode (already integrated) with extended mechanics for experienced raiders
• Hard Mode for elite raiders with new mechanics
• Wing 8 😛

Everyone could choose a mode they want to raid with, higher tiers could give more or better loot and/or special rewards, titles and so on. This is just my (!) idea but sth to build on. Instead of braindead HP sponges.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Radiancee.6537

[Wolfshade.9251]

Wouldn't that just conpletely destroy players' motivation to improve their damage? I mean, why bother gearing a character, learning a rotation, perfecting your understanding of the encouner - when you can get together some bear-bow rangers in blue/green gear and autoattack your way to victory?

[Wolfshade.9251]

5 hours ago, Radiancee.6537 said:

What we pro raiders want? Deeper mechanics.

You are just talking about DPS and it seems like you don't have a clue how Raids really work. There is a lot more to focus on instead of just high DPS. I prefer someone in my static doing 80-90% of the benchmark but playing all mechanics clean incl. solid movement instead of someone doing 100% benchmark and failing at everything else.

Even a relatively new raid squad with ~ 70% of the benchmarks can clear the content if they focus on the mechanics.

Don't talk about what we want if you actually lie. Your idea is just flawed and we don't want HP sponges that just extend the fight we already know how to play. This won't raise up the difficulty. It just makes the fight longer. A CM+ with new mechanics instead would give us new challenges. Or a new Wing.

So, talking about a CM+, here is an actually working idea:

• Emboldened Mode (kinda integrated) for new raiders
• Normal Mode (already integrated) for normal raiders
• Challenge Mode (already integrated) with extended mechanics for experienced raiders
• Hard Mode for elite raiders with new mechanics
• Wing 8 😛

Everyone could choose a mode they want to raid with, higher tiers could give more or better loot and/or special rewards, titles and so on. This is just my (!) idea but sth to build on. Instead of braindead HP sponges.

Hp sponges really sounds like a worst-case scenario for a CM.

Imagine if there was a raid equivalent of Mists Convergence. Xera with SH walls, MO with Cairn teleports, Largos with Dhuum's echo...

[Bakeneko.5826]

That would actually be interesting CM mechanic, where damage doesn't matter, but mechanics - do. Like squad can run full soldiers but if mechanics fail - gg

[Nephalem.8921]

On 12/1/2022 at 11:43 AM, PzTnT.7198 said:

Ah, damage attenuation. 

Warframe does this and its terrible since it turns the game from actually performing better to trying to find exploits and cheesy ways to bypass the scaling. Please don't add it here.

Instead of trying to do the most DPS you'd likely have a meta where you have a DPS target for where the scaling and damage meet up with the quickest time to kill possible.

Damage attenuation works differently. Isnt it just taking your stats and calculates theoretical dps used for scaling? Basically level up or downscaling but based on stats and not level. The idea is to prevent late game players from oneshotting bosses while mid level players cant even scratch them.

All raidbosses or open world bosses should be scaled for ascended so this makes no sense here.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

That would actually be interesting CM mechanic, where damage doesn't matter, but mechanics - do. Like squad can run full soldiers but if mechanics fail - gg

No it would be boring af. Cold war works like this. Its just a timegate. Nobody likes timegate bosses.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

No it would be boring af. Cold war works like this. Its just a timegate. Nobody likes timegate bosses.

This.

It's also completely unnecessary. If so desired, fights can be split up into phases, forcing players to deal with mechanics. Something which is already in the game and seeing use in multiple fights.

Unnecessarily making players wait while actively discouraging improvement of performance is some of the most discouraging content design possible. You just sit there and know, no matter how much work/effort/practice/etc you put in, you have to wait it out.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

That would actually be interesting CM mechanic, where damage doesn't matter, but mechanics - do. Like squad can run full soldiers but if mechanics fail - gg

Or, you know, you can have those mechanics (fail = ded) while at the same time not punishimg players for improving their understanding -and its practical implementation- of the game? 🤔

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Outside of raids it literally only takes one DPS to carry the whole group (two in strikes), because the numbers have become so inflated over time. Its possible for a 5man party to do the same damage as a 10man squad from 2015, and that's after repeated nerfs and the removal of banners and spirits on top of it.

 

Damage just isn't a problem anymore, and we don't need any kind of system to work around it.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Warscythes.9307]

5 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

That would actually be interesting CM mechanic, where damage doesn't matter, but mechanics - do. Like squad can run full soldiers but if mechanics fail - gg

Have you done the most recent CM? DPS check is so low that the check practically does not matter. The most important thing is actually CC with mobility to get to do the CC quickly and do mechanics. It works fine, but there is still a bare minimal of dps required.

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:34 PM, Warscythes.9307 said:

Have you done the most recent CM? DPS check is so low that the check practically does not matter. The most important thing is actually CC with mobility to get to do the CC quickly and do mechanics. It works fine, but there is still a bare minimal of dps required.

I have done it, yes. And it's cool design tbh

 

On 12/3/2022 at 4:00 PM, Nephalem.8921 said:

No it would be boring af. Cold war works like this. Its just a timegate. Nobody likes timegate bosses.

Cold war i trash fight. I'm thinking more in a way of - you fight the boss, at some point mechanics spawns in, players run to do non cheeseable mechanic (be it add, interact with green, something else), then you return for second phase with different encounter mechanics set and so on. It doesn't mean do no DPS and it's OK, just group needs to do ok-ish dmg and not mess up mechanics. Kinda like HT CM Lite

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/7/2022 at 10:52 AM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

I have done it, yes. And it's cool design tbh

 

Cold war i trash fight. I'm thinking more in a way of - you fight the boss, at some point mechanics spawns in, players run to do non cheeseable mechanic (be it add, interact with green, something else), then you return for second phase with different encounter mechanics set and so on. It doesn't mean do no DPS and it's OK, just group needs to do ok-ish dmg and not mess up mechanics. Kinda like HT CM Lite

So that's just a simple job for invuln state instead of whatever weird "every dps is the same now" mechanism is being propose here.

[The Boz.2038]

On 12/1/2022 at 9:44 AM, Urud.4925 said:

Maybe the OP could elaborate/explain better

Doubt it.
He invented the thing, now it's up to ANet to implement it and deal with the details. 😛