Endgame points acquisition is awful

[Positropic.3956]

Hey,

I'm a newish player, recently hit level 80.  The journey to 80 is great, with the game having a lot going on for it. The combat, animations, and art are all well done. The dye system is excellent, and the monetization seems more than fair. I've been happy to spend some cash along the way.

Unfortunately, after hitting 80,  my gameplay experience has gone downhill. You've locked both character progression and story progression behind points systems (hero and mastery points). In a vacuum, this is fine -- it would just be a bit of a grind to advance through the endgame. I've played games with experience loss on death and 8+ hours needed just to grind out a single level, so I'm okay with grinding. 

What I have an issue with, though, is the points (particularly the mastery points) being located in areas that aren't necessarily accessible to the player, with the player not immediately knowing whether or not it's something that can be obtained at that moment. For example, I'll see a mastery point on the map, try to ride over to that location, inevitably end up encountering terrain that I can't manage to successfully navigate, begin to wonder whether that point-node is something I can even obtain with the travel forms that I currently have unlocked, get frustrated, and end up heading to YouTube for more information. This gameplay loop is now eating up the majority of my playing time. It provides greater friction than literally anything else I've encountered in the game, and it's a bigger obstacle than even the toughest enemies the game has thrown at me. I'm beginning to feel like YouTube is the end boss of GW2. Alphabet Company is currently making more revenue off of me than you are. 

I'm okay with heavily relying on third-party resources for in-game information (I play a lot of Path of Exile), but typically this information involves items such as combat mechanics, character building, and proper skill use. Needing to look at a second screen constantly to determine whether I can climb up a hill or make a jump has grown really tiresome. My character is currently unable to progress in both HoT & PoF without more mastery points, and I unfortunately ran out of motivation to keep YouTubing them (particularly when I often discover they require unlocking something I haven't unlocked yet -- which would also require obtaining more mastery points). 

The game itself is great. Hard-locking players out of progress with this system that was obviously going to have them constantly relying on YouTube or a Wiki -- that seems like a poor choice for an endgame. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Positropic.3956

[Smurfiness.3714]

Get Taco overlay with Tekkit addon. It's legal and helps with map completion. Even help with JP.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

So I'll explain why this happens.

 

From level 1-80, the game is designed to be soloed outside of dungeons. However, after lv80, you're expected to do most content in the game with at least one other player. If your skill level is low, this can even include some story missions. As you continue playing and get further into the game you'll encounter more and more group content, including open-world maps that revolve entirely around groups (like in Heart of Thorns).

 

This culminates with there being certain maps that are entirely dedicated to the open-world equivalent of raids, like Dragon's Stand, Dragonfall and Dragon's End. That's to say nothing of instanced content.

 

The simplest solution is to join a guild, just like you would've in every MMO for the last 20 years. You're still new at the game, and you're still very, very early in the game (maxing level is less than 10%), You have new horizons to go to far beyond what you've experienced so far, and you'll undoubtedly need help.

 

If nothing else, ask in map chat. Usually Mesmers or Thieves will port you directly to the location.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Zyreva.1078]

You don't need all masteries to progress the story, only a few, and there are more easily accessible mastery points than needed, so it should be impossible to get stuck due to a lack of mastery points (even without looking up external information).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Positropic.3956 said:

You've locked both character progression and story progression behind points systems (hero and mastery points). In a vacuum, this is fine -- it would just be a bit of a grind to advance through the endgame. I've played games with experience loss on death and 8+ hours needed just to grind out a single level, so I'm okay with grinding. 

Hero points are not hard to get at all - the hardest are HoT hero points which are mostly designed as group content. PoF and EoD reward the same amount (10 per) and are much easier. You can also get hero points from WvW.

As to masteries - very few are actually needed for story progression. You just need:

* Gliding 2 (HoT)

* Exalted 1 (HoT)

* Nuhoch 1 (HoT)

* Ancient Magic 1 (S3)

* Raptor 3 (PoF)

* Raven 2 (IBS)

And that's it out of the entire story. Masteries are designed to be a long-term goal, not something you get in your very first playthrough.

13 hours ago, Positropic.3956 said:

For example, I'll see a mastery point on the map, try to ride over to that location, inevitably end up encountering terrain that I can't manage to successfully navigate, begin to wonder whether that point-node is something I can even obtain with the travel forms that I currently have unlocked, get frustrated, and end up heading to YouTube for more information.

You need to understand that the insights are slightly metroidvania - you're not meant to get every single one on your very first entry into the map. Several of them are intentionally designed to return to after you've gotten some masteries unlocked. And you do not need all of them for maxing out mastery lines - there's a good dozen or so extra points for every line (smallest amount of leeway is for IBS, in all honesty).

There is typically zero need to go to youtube or wiki for information - if you cannot easily reach it as you are now, that means it's meant to be something you return to later. It sounds like you're seeing a brick wall and intentionally bashing your head against it until you tire out, rather than ignoring it and using the doorway that's 30 feet away.

13 hours ago, Positropic.3956 said:

My character is currently unable to progress in both HoT & PoF without more mastery points,

This should be physically impossible. Even if you put points in masteries you don't need, it should be impossible to actually run out within the expansion itself.

Have you tried going to the next map, have you looked at non-insight achievements for mastery points in the maps you are in?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

So I'll explain why this happens.

 

From level 1-80, the game is designed to be soloed outside of dungeons. However, after lv80, you're expected to do most content in the game with at least one other player. If your skill level is low, this can even include some story missions. As you continue playing and get further into the game you'll encounter more and more group content, including open-world maps that revolve entirely around groups (like in Heart of Thorns).

 

This culminates with there being certain maps that are entirely dedicated to the open-world equivalent of raids, like Dragon's Stand, Dragonfall and Dragon's End. That's to say nothing of instanced content.

 

The simplest solution is to join a guild, just like you would've in every MMO for the last 20 years. You're still new at the game, and you're still very, very early in the game (maxing level is less than 10%), You have new horizons to go to far beyond what you've experienced so far, and you'll undoubtedly need help.

 

If nothing else, ask in map chat. Usually Mesmers or Thieves will port you directly to the location.

With exception of group events (such as meta events), every map's open world is fully capable of being solo'd. While Heart of Thorns is more difficult, it is not designed with the intention of a buddy system. Also, the open world does not get "more and more group content" - it's very much leveled out even with core, which has several group events and world bosses in almost every map. Core has lower difficulty overall because ArenaNet didn't know the average skill level of the playerbase and went with "better easier than too hard" approach, but HoT and certain S3 maps are the peak of difficulty in the game - PoF onward levels out immensely, and even meta maps like Dragonfall or Dragon's End allows for a lot of solo progression.

I do agree with the guild bit though, but I wouldn't go claiming that the game is "increasingly harder" or "revolve entirely around groups".

[Cyninja.2954]

14 hours ago, Positropic.3956 said:

snip

and at no point in time did you consider looking up a guide? If you are not enjoying the metroidvania style process of exploration and discovery, then maybe realize that this is in part multiple years old content and there are dozens if not more guides available to follow.

I get that venting from frustration is a thing on the forums, but come on, the solution is not that hard.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Fueki.4753]

There also are twelve Mastery Points that are tied to the Dragon Response Missions that appear on the map but aren't actually available in the open world.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

With exception of group events (such as meta events), every map's open world is fully capable of being solo'd. While Heart of Thorns is more difficult, it is not designed with the intention of a buddy system. Also, the open world does not get "more and more group content" - it's very much leveled out even with core, which has several group events and world bosses in almost every map. Core has lower difficulty overall because ArenaNet didn't know the average skill level of the playerbase and went with "better easier than too hard" approach, but HoT and certain S3 maps are the peak of difficulty in the game - PoF onward levels out immensely, and even meta maps like Dragonfall or Dragon's End allows for a lot of solo progression.

I do agree with the guild bit though, but I wouldn't go claiming that the game is "increasingly harder" or "revolve entirely around groups".

I'm not sure why you made this reply but new players definitely don't go into HoT soloing champion HPs and group events. Veteran players need to remember that they're doing 5x+ the damage of newer players.

 

Your average experienced player can't even handle an elite mob from End of Dragons.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Chyro.1462]

In HoT, even just following the story rewards you with mastery points. Could also do the story achievements for extra mastery points, though that's a bit harder. There's the ones on the map, but as you found out some of them may require you to already have certain masteries to reach them. If you try to reach one and notice its not working, it's easiest to just move on and try again later when you have more masteries - maybe take note of what in the area seems to let you reach it eventually (like if there's a gliding updraft nearby, or a burrowing hole or some jump mushroom). Also you can get some more mastery points from doing the 'adventures' (the little mini-games also shown on the map, like burning vines with a flame-thrower or the shooting gallery for example).

 

Usually you can just focus on the masteries required for story first (they're even marked with the green story star) and continue going through the story, while spending excess masteries on whatever seems most convenient to have. I think in HoT it's quite generous with how many mastery points are available to you - later on in icebrood and EoD I felt like its a bit more of a struggle to get the necessary points to max out masteries.

[Okhu.7948]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:53 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Your average experienced player can't even handle an elite mob from End of Dragons.

What "experienced" players are you playing with?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

5 hours ago, Okhu.7948 said:

What "experienced" players are you playing with?

We collect data on players in various ways, through ArcDPS, and through GW2Efficiency. There'es a massive gap in skill in the player base, which the devs claim is 10x in damage alone. Because of this, there's many different levels of experience, and a player can both be many times stronger than a casual or new player, but also far weaker than a veteran player who runs hardcore content like raids.

 

For example, having a really good build and knowing how to play it doesn't teach you animation cancelling (which is, technically, an exploit), and thus halves your damage automatically.

 

Its a spectrum, basically, and the majority of players are on the <5k DPS end of it (real world, not golem). This is why the devs seem to consistently make content too easy, because they can already see in their analytics that much of the player base just doesn't have the required skill to handle even open-world content solo.

 

That's why Dragon's End was such a high risk for them, as maps like Dragon's Stand (most of HoT in general) were already seen as excessive in difficulty by an overwhelming portion of the player base. The release of Heart of Thorns was originally seen as the death of the game, and difficulty in open-world and in story has been gradually pulled back to prevent that from happening again, only just recently being tuned back up.

 

End of Dragons is still a bit of a step up compared to Path of Fire, at least.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Mell.4873]

On 12/17/2022 at 7:54 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

We collect data on players in various ways, through ArcDPS, and through GW2Efficiency. There'es a massive gap in skill in the player base, which the devs claim is 10x in damage alone. Because of this, there's many different levels of experience, and a player can both be many times stronger than a casual or new player, but also far weaker than a veteran player who runs hardcore content like raids.

 

For example, having a really good build and knowing how to play it doesn't teach you animation cancelling (which is, technically, an exploit), and thus halves your damage automatically.

 

Its a spectrum, basically, and the majority of players are on the <5k DPS end of it (real world, not golem). This is why the devs seem to consistently make content too easy, because they can already see in their analytics that much of the player base just doesn't have the required skill to handle even open-world content solo.

 

That's why Dragon's End was such a high risk for them, as maps like Dragon's Stand (most of HoT in general) were already seen as excessive in difficulty by an overwhelming portion of the player base. The release of Heart of Thorns was originally seen as the death of the game, and difficulty in open-world and in story has been gradually pulled back to prevent that from happening again, only just recently being tuned back up.

 

End of Dragons is still a bit of a step up compared to Path of Fire, at least.

Yeah you go it.

I also think this is why Mechanist became so prevalent in the end game. It provided most new players a foundation to improve there gameplay with really high benchmarks. 

I have advicated for tutorials for a while but honestly there are a tone of good guilds out there that can help new players.

 

I will say most end game build are so convoluted that even I have a hard time playing them, like the 41k Untamed. 

[Migraine.5810]

I had a similar issue as the OP, as when I finally reached HoT (doing the story chronologically) I messed up with the special ability unlocks starting from that point. I kept unlocking the wrong things, and later realized I needed Itzel language for this, Updraft Use for that, Exalted Markings etc.
It's not the end of the world though, and I don't necessarily think they should change much (if anything, actually - just sharing my experience), but it made the game slightly more into a grindfest and I noticed that I played less on that character and decided to play on an alt in the vanilla zones instead.
It also didn't help that without bouncing on mushrooms, using wallows/thermal vents or PoF mounts I often couldn't reach events in time when there were super geared veteran players killing things really fast.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Migraine.5810

[PsychoSomatic.6728]

Starting the game in October of this year I completely get the feeling of being overwhelmed by the mastery system both first at core trying to get the masteries filled I had a hard time getting points (until I discovered fractals).  Honestly in core the experience needed for unlocks really wasn't a problem because so much counted toward it.  

 

Reaching HoT there were so many differences that can lead to being overwhelmed.  The verticality, difficulty of navigating/exploring the map, mob density, and a variety of smaller things.

 

What helped was that there are kind people that do hero point and mastery point runs through HoT.  This was a god send.  I truly appreciate everyone that helps groups of new players get around especially when they don't have mounts like others.

 

Unfortunately HoT the experience is the drag here.  Especially as the Mastery line goes deeper it takes forever for you to get it finished.

 

My tip to anyone trying to get masteries done in HoT and hero points is to go into LFG and you will find these Trains going fairly frequently.

 

[Mantis.6102]

Another option is to use looking for group (LFG) to find an HP train on a map that has the points you need.  Typically a person will lead you around the entire map and port you to points you can't reach and you will have all the hero and mastery points for the whole map unlocked in 20 minutes. The people that do this usually will ask for a tip for payment for their time. If you find yourself wanting to advance quicker than you can solo, it is a viable way to go.

[Luthan.5236]

You litereally complain about certain stuff ... while on the other hand saying it is fine/not too bad: If you even can grind for 8 hours for one level ... a bit of info gatherin on YouTube should be not a problem.

The only problem would be if this was the only game that did it like this. But all major MMORPG have just tons of content and rely on external sources to get information. Or asking ingame. And for a lot of mastery points it actually is not that hard to unterstand ingame by trying out.

The achievements mastery point ... have their own achievement - you can see that in the hero tab in the panel for the achievements. Hero challenges and the mastery insights ... have a location on the map. Most - except the  HoT ones - can be soloead easily. (The other ones ... you can just gather a few people.) For some obscure/harder collections - the wiki is pretty helpful. (You can also check that for the mastery points needed for certain story steps that might have a lock until you get a certain mastery. Mainly in HoT I think. PoF only stuff like Raptor the longer jump I think.)

Certain stuff ... like the mastery insights in a location with poision (needs another mastery to not die there) ... one should be able to figure this out. Or at least as in map chat "i try to go to the mastery point at <location> why do I keep dying instantly there?".

Edited January 3, 2023 by Luthan.5236