Why Mesmer is a joke

[bethekey.8314]

3 minutes ago, Koensol.5860 said:

Gotta love people defending a horribly designed class like virtuoso with bloated defences making for extremely uninteractive encounters. Instead of criticizing the OP, why don't you guys explain to us why virtuoso and specifically this build is such a healthy class for the game? Why not explain to us how you think this kind of build is fun to play against? Because I think some of you don't see the difference between overperforming on a meta level, or just having a toxic and uninteractive design that just creates frustration. 

Don't bring logic into this. Mesmers operate on illusion.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

So, if it has no skill ceiling you most be top 100 with mesmer every season? Virtuoso is one the easier side, but Mesmer has never been. You have to work harder to achieve the same results you can get with classes like Necro or Guardian. Yes, more work for same results, not more work for better results.

It's been a running theme with Mesmer for 10 years now. People who complain about Mesmer cannot play it.

 

You do get better results though, as mesmer historically has been taken care of very well.  You can fit pretty much any role in the game and high skill mesmers are up there with high skill eles, just not really touchable.  

Both ele and mesmer players have mad history with complaining though.  

Anyway, from a ranger perspective, more work for same or worse results would be Untamed atm.  

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

@Ixl Super Eu Ixl.3259

So be passive aggressive all you want, I'm loving it. Many, many people watched me have a full on conversation while surviving your 30k game mesmer "skill".

If your thesis is that the build is really strong and requires no skill you cannot use this argument/insult. It is self-defeating.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You do get better results though, as mesmer historically has been taken care of very well.  You can fit pretty much any role in the game and high skill mesmers are up there with high skill eles, just not really touchable.  

Both ele and mesmer players have mad history with complaining though.  

Anyway, from a ranger perspective, more work for same or worse results would be Untamed atm.  

 

Virtuoso is the *only* eod spec that has never been meta. Mesmer hasn't been meta for upwards of 3 years.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, Koensol.5860 said:

Gotta love people defending a horribly designed class like virtuoso with bloated defences making for extremely uninteractive encounters. Instead of criticizing the OP, why don't you guys explain to us why virtuoso and specifically this build is such a healthy class for the game? Why not explain to us how you think this kind of build is fun to play against? Because I think some of you don't see the difference between overperforming on a meta level, or just having a toxic and uninteractive design that just creates frustration. 

For me personally, I'm arguing that this build isn't good and doesn't really do much, and against statements like "tell me again why Mesmer requires skill". This position alone seems to greatly offend OP. I don't care for  or about the build itself, in fact I have made multiple nerf suggestions for tankier Mesmer builds (while OP hasn't really made any legitimate suggestion at all as far as I can tell).

Also basically no PvP Mesner is happy with the state of Virtuoso. It is the only EoD spec that has never been meta.

[Leonidrex.5649]

14 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Care to prove me wrong?

Because I'm here to show you even pre-rifle nerf mech was an absolute joke:

 

Yes, I understand this is WvW and not PvP, but it's the only 2v1 mech fight I readily have available.  Can also just say the mech would be about half as powerful in sPvP anyway due to how the modes work--so my point still stands.

Mechs are free.

I knew wvw players were terrible but this is another level.
you legit think it was 2v1 XD

EDIT
Also you missed the point.
How can you complain about mech being stupid while clones/phantasms are exactly the same if not kittening worse  🤣

Edited December 10, 2022 by Leonidrex.5649

[Terrorhuz.4695]

12 hours ago, Koensol.5860 said:

Gotta love people defending a horribly designed class like virtuoso

Nobody defended virtuoso. I hate virtuoso so much I specifically did not buy EoD and changed my IGN to "unsummonANetS***r" (S***r being the guy who designed virtuoso, mechanist, harbinger and the recent mirage staff\chronomancer well changes)

It's trash class and a garbage design. I'm really happy S****r left the studio, there's nothing positive he ever did for the game. But virtuoso has a series of shortcomings that prevents it from being succesful. It's obnoxious, but nothing else.

And I'm thankful for these shortcomings, don't get me wrong, because if they were ever fixed virtuoso would be the most busted thing ever.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Gotejjeken.1267]

9 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

 

Virtuoso is the *only* eod spec that has never been meta. Mesmer hasn't been meta for upwards of 3 years.

 

Mesmer hasn't been meta where for upwards of 3 years?  Because chrono and mirage are still meta picks--chronobunker for sPvP and mirage in endgame PvE.  

 

9 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I knew wvw players were terrible but this is another level.
you legit think it was 2v1 XD

EDIT
Also you missed the point.
How can you complain about mech being stupid while clones/phantasms are exactly the same if not kittening worse  🤣

 

Reading is your friend.  I never said mesmer was 'stupid' or OP, I said there is no skill cap for it.  It's too technically mechanical for that.

I wouldn't be bagging on WvW players when you can't even properly read 😂.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

12 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

 

Mesmer hasn't been meta for upwards of 3 years.

it's meta now, and almost. The competitive split that took a dodge off of mirage was in 2020. 
Coming up on three though. 2 years, 9 months is close enough I reckon. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

17 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

things

You can and should remove chronobunker out of the equation. No shape of bunker mesmer should ever be allowed to exist imho.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

You can and should remove chronobunker out of the equation. No shape of bunker mesmer should ever be allowed to exist imho.

 

14 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I have made multiple nerf suggestions for tankier Mesmer builds (while OP hasn't really made any legitimate suggestion at all as far as I can tell).

Also basically no PvP Mesner is happy with the state of Virtuoso. It is the only EoD spec that has never been meta.

Just an opinion post, disregard if tl;dr

These both come off to me as power mes players that are consistently having to deal with people pissed off at the last bunker/condi ver they ran into, which I can understand and respect if so. 

I know I don't need to say this, but  continue to specify what you don't approve of and what you want/don't want, because I'm sure a large majority of the people who have issue with mes are not mad they got blown up by a glass chrono or core, but are mad because Andy the Magician can run like 5 signets and staff, or virt with a scepter and be invulnerable to all manner of damage for extremely long periods of time, and there are mesmer players actively asking what the problem with that is when they voice that concern.

 

This isn't a jab at anyone in particular (yet) just that:

 

1.) Power mes is fine and should be usable/viable as it requires skillful play.

2.) Some Condi mes variants will continue to be considered/focused when talking about mes balance because they are obnoxious, effective, and easy to use and thus you will encounter them often.

3.) Nobody runs into power mesmers unless they are cracked, and usually in that situation the skill gap is apparent and defendable. (Just like most people don't run into, say, power zerker unless the zerker knows what they are doing, and so are forming their opinions about warrior based on the performance of spellbreaker)

4.) consider the above when someone here says "mes is X" and specify what variant you are referring to (even if you do this often in the case of Terrorhuz). People here are talking over each other regarding two different things. I'm against you if you're justifying bunker condi builds that fit the role of current virt, but I am potentially for you if you're having issues with power variants because classes are getting buffed to deal with the former, and are starting to counter the latter as a result. There's going to need to be a solution that doesn't send either class to the shadow realm via nerfs at the end of that, but we need to make sure we're speaking the same language, so-to-speak, first. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Eddbopkins.2630]

It creates to much clutter on the screen with clones, specially if there's more then one. I wouldn't mind having a clone limit on the map of some kind to prevent the clutter mess.

[Nezekan.2671]

1 hour ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

It creates to much clutter on the screen with clones, specially if there's more then one. I wouldn't mind having a clone limit on the map of some kind to prevent the clutter mess.

That depends on who you fight or if clones are ranged or melee. This is rare problem. A minor cleave will pretty much prevent melee clones from spawning. If you want to try this yourself, try fighting a spellbreaker with axe clones, see if you can ever get to 3 clones.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

16 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Mesmer hasn't been meta where for upwards of 3 years?  Because chrono and mirage are still meta picks--chronobunker for sPvP and mirage in endgame PvE.  

 

 

Reading is your friend.  I never said mesmer was 'stupid' or OP, I said there is no skill cap for it.  It's too technically mechanical for that.

I wouldn't be bagging on WvW players when you can't even properly read 😂.

Sir this is the PvP forum

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

13 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

it's meta now, and almost. The competitive split that took a dodge off of mirage was in 2020. 
Coming up on three though. 2 years, 9 months is close enough I reckon. 

Sorry I didn't realize upwards of meant "in excess of", what I meant to say was "comping up to" then.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

10 hours ago, Eddbopkins.2630 said:

It creates to much clutter on the screen with clones, specially if there's more then one. I wouldn't mind having a clone limit on the map of some kind to prevent the clutter mess.

They made this worse back when they reworked phantasms so that you cannot shatter them in 2018

Edited December 11, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Sir this is the PvP forum

 

sPvP stands for structured PvP, No? 

[Waffles.5632]

I think what is getting at is probably something I agree with, and that is, if we assume every class is played perfectly, which one would consistently come out on top? And for that, yes my bias is Power Mirage, but yeah, that's still my choice, well Mesmer in general.

Mesmer wins all scenarios if we assume perfectly play. IMO. Specifically Mirage for me, but I can see case for Chrono as well. So this is what I think is meant by no skill ceiling and I hope I am not wrong.

But that scenario is not really realistic in any sense IMO because in reality we see Mirage as one of the weaker performing classes overall in context for pvp, it struggles greatly against organized beatdowns, so like if a thief+rev decide to bully, oh boy you are going to be in for a rough treatment that match unless your team can peel that aggro off of you.

Sure there are many scenarios, many "perfect plays", many theories, but I have found practice to be the best teacher here. Mirage is an extremely punishing and hard class to learn in pvp which is why I would bet it is the least played spec right now outside of firebrand (again just pvp only)  It takes a lot to know because not only do you need to know your class, you need to know and be familiar with every single other class as well, otherwise you're gonna get caught, and then get blown up, and you will keep getting blown up until you learn. That is the class, even if played with defensive traits it's still very much a you evade or you die type of feeling. This trickles down to Mesmer, but Mirage suffers exclusively because of one dodge.

 

I can only speak from personal experience but I've pvp'd awhile now and I have seen maybe 10-20 mirages over all that time. I am not making that up though I wish I was lol.

 

I think the fairest thing to say is that Mirage, and Mesmer in general has the most potential out of all the classes, but potential isn't ever 1:1 with reality and ultimately if Mirage was a strong pick, it would be picked up more and you would see it both in ranked and MAT's. It can never be equal with anything now as long as it remains with one dodge so mechanically it is always the inferior pick atm. Things can change, but one dodge coupled with one of the hardest classes to play means absolutely no new players are ever picking that class up and only seasoned vets will dabble in it.

 

For reference IMO top 3 hardest classes to learn in pvp, no order;

- Ele

- Mes

- Thief

 

I can see a case for chrono being meta atm, but I think more time is needed for me personally. I don't consider Virtu meta yet but time will tell on that too.

 

Just remember anything bunker/condi related to mes needs to die in pvp until Anet decides to actually look at it properly. Any version of mes that inherits those traits is always the same boring thing to fight as and fight against. I have dabbled myself in the dark arts of condi mirage and I was disgusted by what I found. Power is the proper play for PvP here, while Condi can remain fine and awesome in PvE, where it does do rather well all things considered. Even still, IMO condi Mirage needs a complete overhaul anyways so I'd rather see that.

So I am not against Condi, rather against Condi in it's current form. All IMO.

[satyricon.2981]

I have no idea how you're supposed to deal with them, they are basically immune to dying and cannot be stopped under any circumstances. The only way I see them die is to a lot of condi, but even then they seem to always win any engagement.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:52 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

it's meta now, and almost. The competitive split that took a dodge off of mirage was in 2020. 
Coming up on three though. 2 years, 9 months is close enough I reckon. 

why would chrono bunker be meta, it loses to 2 most popular side-noders, cata and untamed lol

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:34 AM, Vancho.8750 said:

but the showcase is really bad example since engi can circumvent the defenses on Mesmer

Really? That's news to me.

 

 

[freakcoco.4287]

On 12/3/2022 at 5:10 PM, bethekey.8314 said:

 

I not only don't list every defensive ability, but this also doesn't account for how long they last. Torch stealth lasts for multiple seconds, for example, rendering the use of other blocks/dodges etc pointless.

Regardless of duration, a new defensive every 2.5 seconds.

Tell me again why Mesmer Virtuoso requires skill. I could program a bot to do a set rotation better than this.

 

 

Mecha pretty much lost every match up.

It proof nothing.