Hot Take: Remove 2v2 Duo

[Zombiesbum.3502]

Obviously, this tittle is sort of click bait. While I won't complain about the removal of duo queueing in ranked 2v2, I'm not going to expect it or suggest that as the only solution. But I do think something needs to change in the current 2v2 landscape. Some suggestions:

• Give players that have played over a threshold (like 90%) of games as a solo player a separate tittle like "Solo 2v2" and "Solo 2v2 Elite".
• Remove the ability to pick the same class. Generally speaking, problems arise when 2 players are able to pick 2 of the same thing, and it's not just this game. If you've ever played Minion Masters, 2 players picking the same hero was a major problem, then they made it so you can't, and it actually made the matches far more enjoyable. This should probably happen here too. It's not elementalists that are the problem (though they are very strong), but duo elementalists. Have you ever played against duo druid? You don't want to.
• Give the duo team some sort of handicap.
• And obviously the last suggestion is to just remove the ability to duo queue in 2v2.
• EDIT: Of course, another obvious solution to this could be to just remove the ability to solo queue. As bad as that sounds, it solves the issue to some degree.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Zombiesbum.3502

[Morwath.9817]

• 2v2 should allowed whole year during each season same time as Conquest;
• 2v2 should be only premade Q.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

2v2 is exactly where the DuoQs(2 person teams) should be though

How about removing them from 5v5 where they are objectively boring and unfair?

[Ruisenior.6342]

And add a 1v1 qeue

[jdawgie.1835]

Lmao... Remove the duos from actual 2v2? Has this entire game lost its mind? Listen man... Arenas are for teams. Point blank period. Not only should we not remove people partying up in a team game to play on a team we should be:

• Adding 2v2 all year round
• Adding 3v3 all year round
• Adding 5v5 (Where an actual team can que together in 5v5) All year round. 
• And... And a 1v1 que for Solo Players.

5v5 Conquest is a game mode designed around communication and teamwork. It WAS DESIGNED to be fully partied into as it was at launch and only allowing duos in a 5v5 match is the most backwards laughable solution that was ever created.

Competitive Team Based Games are meant for exactly that. Teams. Actual Teams. 

If you want to que into pvp solo that's anyone's prerogative to do so - but thats your choice.

I cant believe we are at the point where we are suggesting that Duos be removed from actual 2v2. Its the twilight zone.  I will agree that class stacking gets absurd. So there's that.

Edited December 4, 2022 by jdawgie.1835

[Zombiesbum.3502]

8 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Lmao... Remove the duos from actual 2v2? Has this entire game lost its mind? Listen man... Arenas are for teams. Point blank period. Not only should we not remove people partying up in a team game to play on a team we should be:

 

Adding 2v2 all year round

Adding 3v3 all year round

Adding 5v5 (Where an actual team can que together in 5v5) All year round. 

And... And a 1v1 que for Solo Players.

 

5v5 Conquest is a game mode designed around communication and teamwork. It WAS DESIGNED to be fully partied into as it was at launch and only allowing duos in a 5v5 match is the most backwards laughable solution that was ever created.

 

Competitive Team Based Games are meant for exactly that. Teams. Actual Teams. 

 

If you want to que into pvp solo that's anyone's prerogative to do so - but thats your choice.

 

I cant believe we are at the point where we are suggesting that Duos be removed from actual 2v2. Its the twilight zone.  

Like I said in my post, one of the solutions to this problem is to remove the ability to queue into 2v2 as a solo player. The issue with 2v2 is that if you are playing duo (and serious about, ei have compatible builds and using voip) then that provides you with a huge advantage over other players that do play solo queue. This artificially increases your rank, it's like a lesser form of win trading, though more accepting by the community. It is absolutely game-manipulation to play in a premade against none premades, and this goes for all ranked modes too (but 2v2 is the most "damaging", for lack of a better word).

The issue with other suggestions of allowing 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, all year round is that is just going to further dilute the already tiny PvP community. Win trading is a huge problem in PvP, and like it or not, that's a big problem that only gets worse with more mode choices. I would love to see modes like this added permanently, but not at the expense of extremely long wait times and even more rampant cheating. 

Note: Before you try to insult people by referring to the twilight zone, maybe you should look at the issues of your own ideas and how flawed they actually are. I'm not going to insult you for a bad idea, but I will point it out and why it's a bad idea. Please show me the same curtesy.  

Which brings me to the next issue I have with the argument in your post (as others have made the same argument too); Why. Why should 2v2 remain as a duo queue? I mean really, why? "It's a team game" isn't an objective "why" here, it's an assumption that because you are working with other players, then you should automatically be allowed an advantage over other players of being in a premade group. I don't see any reason for why, only an opinion that many other players do not share. What are the benefits of allowing players to play as a premade group and play against non-premade groups? And I mean benefit to the mode and community, not to an individual player's artificially inflated rank.

[jdawgie.1835]

8 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

This artificially increases your rank, it's like a lesser form of win trading, though more accepting by the community. It is absolutely game-manipulation to play in a premade against none premades,

• I'll address one at a time - Lets start here. 
• No its not. Solo queing into a 2v2 arena is a personal and unwise choice made by the solo player. Its not match manipulation to make a choice to do something unwise. 2v2 arenas are not meant to be played solo - thus 2v2. 

8 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

The issue with other suggestions of allowing 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, all year round is that is just going to further dilute the already tiny PvP community.

• This is a straw man argument - and it always has been. The PvP community is divided because WE divided it when we removed team ques from a team based game. It was further decayed by the ongoing ambivalence of win trading and other nonsensical behaviors that continue to go unregulated. Adding these ques in would bring people into pvp. Not remove more. 

8 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Before you try to insult people by referring to the twilight zone, maybe you should look at the issues of your own ideas and how flawed they actually are.

• Its not an insult - playing arenas solo is an oxymoron. I am highlighting this. 

8 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Why should 2v2 remain as a duo queue? I mean really, why? "It's a team game" isn't an objective "why" here, it's an assumption that because you are working with other players, then you should automatically be allowed an advantage over other players of being in a premade group. I don't see any reason for why, only an opinion that many other players do not share. What are the benefits of allowing players to play as a premade group and play against non-premade groups? And I mean benefit to the mode and community, not to an individual player's artificially inflated rank.

• Solo play does not belong in arenas. Solo players are being allowed to do something they have no business doing and then they are complaining about it. You are loosing in solo que because you are going into a team event with no team. Essentially - you think its the duos that are given the extras, what I am saying is the solo players are the ones being given extras, by being allowed to que alone at all when they shouldnt be. 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by jdawgie.1835

[Zombiesbum.3502]

43 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

• I'll address one at a time - Lets start here. 
• No its not. Solo queing into a 2v2 arena is a personal and unwise choice made by the solo player. Its not match manipulation to make a choice to do something unwise. 2v2 arenas are not meant to be played solo - thus 2v2. 

• This is a straw man argument - and it always has been. The PvP community is divided because WE divided it when we removed team ques from a team based game. It was further decayed by the ongoing ambivalence of win trading and other nonsensical behaviors that continue to go unregulated. Adding these ques in would bring people into pvp. Not remove more. 

• Its not an insult - playing arenas solo is an oxymoron. I am highlighting this. 

• Solo play does not belong in arenas. Solo players are being allowed to do something they have no business doing and then they are complaining about it. You are loosing in solo que because you are going into a team event with no team. Essentially - you think its the duos that are given the extras, what I am saying is the solo players are the ones being given extras, by being allowed to que alone at all when they shouldnt be. 

 

You can solo queue in 2v2, and people do solo queue in 2v2. I am talking about how the mode currently works, not the ideal of "it should only be 2v2 premade". Something being a personal choice or not is not the point I am making here. When you are playing 2v2 premade versus a 2v2 non-premade, then you have made the choice of increasing your odds of winning by playing as a premade. You cannot say that someone chooses to play solo without also saying that they choose to play premade. And so far I haven't seen any real reasons why this mode should allow premades. Again, I have listed other suggestions too.

I don't think you know what staw man argument means. That is not a straw man argument. What you mean to say is it's a fallacious argument. However, I could also argue the same with your logic here, because you don't truly know the reason the causation for the PvP community being "divided" though that in itself is a loaded statement as you'd also have to show evidence for the community being "divided", though you mean could something else than what I'm thinking when you say divided.

It is an insult though. Something being true from your perspective (I'm assuming you think it's true) doesn't make something not an insult. Otherwise, I could say something like; "you are a monkey", if I believe you to be a monkey then by your definition (from what I can see at least) then I didn't insult you. Can you see how ludicrous that is?

Why doesn't solo play belong in arena? And if it doesn't belong, then why include solo play? This only creates artificial rankings (arguably far more than duo 5v5). I haven't seen any reason or argument to keep premade 2v2 as premade AND solo.

[Cuks.8241]

I've played a moba where you were able to queue ranked as any number of players in a party, 1-5.

What the game did, it attributed the grouped players higher rating that they actually had. 

Was it perfect? No and players still complained (they always do anyway). It was still better than nothing and imo worked very well, at least at middle to semi high ratings where I played. And at least it alowed frinds and competitive teams to play together. 

[jdawgie.1835]

1 hour ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Something being a personal choice or not is not the point I am making here.

• That may not be your point... However it is the point. Solo Que Players are not intended to be there. They are allowed their as a result of whinning and crying on the forums. The orignal game design literally did not allow people not in a party to que. Back then solo players had hotjoin servers for that. 

1 hour ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

You cannot say that someone chooses to play solo without also saying that they choose to play premade.

• Both parties are making choices. One (Team Que) is choosing to play inline with the design of the system. The other (Solo-Player) is choosing to go into a team orientated match with out all of the things offered to them to create the best circumstances for their team. Being upset about the results or happy about them is a direct result of the choices made. 

1 hour ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

And so far I haven't seen any real reasons why this mode should allow premades.

• I answered this twice already - See Below: 

11 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Competitive Team Based Games are meant for exactly that. Teams. Actual Teams. 

 

11 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

5v5 Conquest is a game mode designed around communication and teamwork. It WAS DESIGNED to be fully partied into as it was at launch and only allowing duos in a 5v5 match is the most backwards laughable solution that was ever created.

Next Topic: 

1 hour ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

I don't think you know what staw man argument means.

•  A form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

1 hour ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

It is an insult though. Something being true from your perspective (I'm assuming you think it's true) doesn't make something not an insult

• It is not an oppioin that team based games are designed to be played with teams. 
• It not my oppinion that sPvP is this game was infact designed to be played with full parties.

Insisting otherwise is ---> informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument; and as a result  ----> the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

Edited December 4, 2022 by jdawgie.1835

[Zombiesbum.3502]

12 minutes ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

• That may not be your point... However it is the point. Solo Que Players are not intended to be there. They are allowed their as a result of whinning and crying on the forums. The orignal game design literally did not allow people not in a party to que. Back then solo players had hotjoin servers for that. 

• Both parties are making choices. One (Team Que) is choosing to play inline with the design of the system. The other (Solo-Player) is choosing to go into a team orientated match with out all of the things offered to them to create the best circumstances for their team. Being upset about the results or happy about them is a direct result of the choices made. 

• I answered this twice already - See Below: 

Next Topic: 

•  A form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

• It is not an oppioin that team based games are designed to be played with teams. 
• It not my oppinion that sPvP is this game was infact designed to be played with full parties.

Insisting otherwise is ---> informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument; and as a result  ----> the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

A straw man in layman's terms is to argue an argument the other person is not making. Your original accusation of my apparent strawman is not what a strawman argument is. And by saying that I am strawmaning as part of your argument, that would in fact be a strawman in itself. 

Anyway, back on topic. A team game does not mean it is designed with the intent that all parties should previously have known each other. You don't know the intent of the design. You can only guess the intent. And by asserting your guess as a bases for your argument, then that turns your argument into a fallacious one. Hence why I have asked for a reason even after you think you've given a good enough answer.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

14 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Like I said in my post, one of the solutions to this problem is to remove the ability to queue into 2v2 as a solo player. The issue with 2v2 is that if you are playing duo (and serious about, ei have compatible builds and using voip) then that provides you with a huge advantage over other players that do play solo queue. This artificially increases your rank, it's like a lesser form of win trading, though more accepting by the community. It is absolutely game-manipulation to play in a premade against none premades, and this goes for all ranked modes too (but 2v2 is the most "damaging", for lack of a better word).

100% right in saying its match manipulation and that its worse during 2v2. Its not uncommon for Rank 1 & 2 to win literally 100% of games played in 2v2.

Merged solo/duo in 2v2 was just a dumb idea, just like it was in 5v5. The only difference is DuoQ would actually be fair in 2v2, compared to 5v5 where its always broken.

Its also a perfect chance to quarantine the DuoQs to one gamemode, because nobody is going to play it anyway. 2v2 solo/duoQ is a joke. The wintraders would have to pay me a cut to get me to boost them in that joke of an arena.

14 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

The issue with other suggestions of allowing 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, all year round is that is just going to further dilute the already tiny PvP community. Win trading is a huge problem in PvP, and like it or not, that's a big problem that only gets worse with more mode choices. I would love to see modes like this added permanently, but not at the expense of extremely long wait times and even more rampant cheating. 

50% right on this.

Having more, at least 2 ranked gamemodes is the best action that could possibly be taken against wintraders.

It doesn't need to be all this 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, crap dividing the populations in like 4 different directions. Those are best kept as miniseasons because the game is not balanced for these modes. Rather, they should just take whatever gamemode is active at the time and split it into solos/teams as separate queues.

Keeping it to only 2 different and separate queues; Solos and Teams, will divide the already low population a lot less, and there wouldn't have to be any concern about population for the soloQs because they already make up like upwards of 80% of the game's population anyway. Teams would be waiting forever in queue for imbalanced games, and they know they would. That's why they refuse to let us have a true SoloQ. Because without us, they have nobody to farm to artificially boost their ratings, and they probably wouldn't even be able to play at all really. 

They hate us, yet we made them and they need us. That's why they'll never free us. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Multicolorhipster.9751

[jdawgie.1835]

3 hours ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

You don't know the intent of the design

I do know the intent of the design lol. I was there for it at launch. 5v5 ESL was the original intent of sPvP. Structured PvP was 100% in fact designed for Team Ques/Partied play. 

 

The Structured PvP envoirment (5v5 Conquest) has not been updated since their ESL hopes were abandoned. 

Here is some footage of the orignal design intent: 

 

[Eddbopkins.2630]

2v2 should have an unranked mode.  It allows new commers to learn the class and not a silly game mode or other map objectives like bell.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

As stated before, the problem isn't duo Q. The problem is matchmaking. This is true for both Ranked conquest and 2v2 Arena.

-Duo Q rating in matchmaking should look at the highest rated player +10.

-Duo Q should almost never be matched against solo Q. Never ever period in platinum+.

 

Fix those two issues, and the vast majority of complaints are addressed.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

2 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

As stated before, the problem isn't duo Q. The problem is matchmaking. This is true for both Ranked conquest and 2v2 Arena.

The problem is DuoQ in Ranked conquest. Its baffling how you can play for so long and not see that.

Any problems that exist with matchmaking are made 200% worse with the the inclusion of DuoQ. On their own, matchmaking concerns are usually trivial and a result of people thinking that a lot more people play this game than what actually does.

2 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

-Duo Q rating in matchmaking should look at the highest rated player +10.

That still would not work, it would only be marginally better than what we're stuck with now. The upper tiers are so empty and dead that it is physically impossible to find an even matchup for a high-rated DuoQ even if it didn't use an average of their ratings, which it does, and that's bs so easy to exploit.

2 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

-Duo Q should almost never be matched against solo Q. Never ever period in platinum+.

This is also physically impossible to avoid because ranked conquest is 5v5. DuoQ is 2 people. The most people that can be duoq'd on one team is 4 when teams are 5 players. And that's if the stars align and you get 4 different DuoQs in one game, which isn't all that common.

See the problem here?

2 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Fix those two issues, and the vast majority of complaints are addressed.

The real issue is DuoQ. Get rid of it and you fix those 2 issues by default. 👍

[Zombiesbum.3502]

10 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

I do know the intent of the design lol. I was there for it at launch. 5v5 ESL was the original intent of sPvP. Structured PvP was 100% in fact designed for Team Ques/Partied play. 

 

The Structured PvP envoirment (5v5 Conquest) has not been updated since their ESL hopes were abandoned. 

Here is some footage of the orignal design intent: 

 

You are talking about an E-sport scene, not a game mechanic intent for the average player. You don't actually know, you think you know.

[Jumpel.3972]

1 hour ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

You are talking about an E-sport scene, not a game mechanic intent for the average player. You don't actually know, you think you know.

PVP was designed for E-sport scene at his origin, not for average player (which is probably why it's failed)

[Zombiesbum.3502]

2 hours ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

PVP was designed for E-sport scene at his origin, not for average player (which is probably why it's failed)

Did you design the game back before 2012?

[Jumpel.3972]

27 minutes ago, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Did you design the game back before 2012?

Not me but i was following what they said during developpement back then

[jdawgie.1835]

On 12/5/2022 at 3:07 AM, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

You are talking about an E-sport scene, not a game mechanic intent for the average player. You don't actually know, you think you know

Lmao. Your strawman is showing. 

On 12/5/2022 at 4:21 AM, Jumpel.3972 said:

PVP was designed for E-sport scene at his origin, not for average player (which is probably why it's failed)

Boom. And it is why it failed. Its no longer played as intended. 

On 12/5/2022 at 7:01 AM, Zombiesbum.3502 said:

Did you design the game back before 2012?

He doesnt need to be the designer to have comprehension of the designers intent my guy lol. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by jdawgie.1835

[Luthan.5236]

While in 5 vs 5. duo queue is not a big deal (only 40 percent of the max team size) and even a full team queue would not be that troublesome (can still be balanced if the other team gets a good mix of different professions in the team) ... in 2 vs. 2 it is a big thing. They even allow 3 queue in the 3 vs. 3. But I think it is just a way to say "hey this is not real PvP" (which I already knew before).

I take it leasurely. Going for the pips. When it seems lost - quickly surrendering. (Getting killed can end the mach faster cause the other team only needs to kill you.)

If they want to us to at least take it a bit serously they'd allow onyly 1 person to queue in the mini seasons. Or allowing the 100 percent queue (5 man queuing together) in the normal season as well. Now allowing more where it has a bigger impact when it got restricted in the 5 vs. 5 where it has less of an impact.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

14 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

While in 5 vs 5. duo queue is not a big deal (only 40 percent of the max team size) and even a full team queue would not be that troublesome (can still be balanced if the other team gets a good mix of different professions in the team) ... in 2 vs. 2 it is a big thing. They even allow 3 queue in the 3 vs. 3. But I think it is just a way to say "hey this is not real PvP" (which I already knew before).

If they want to us to at least take it a bit serously they'd allow onyly 1 person to queue in the mini seasons. Or allowing the 100 percent queue (5 man queuing together) in the normal season as well. Now allowing more where it has a bigger impact when it got restricted in the 5 vs. 5 where it has less of an impact.

Its got more of an impact on 5v5 where DuoQ is imbalanced regardless.

In 2v2/3v3 a premade can go against another premade. In 5v5 the advantage is always with the DuoQ.

There is also more people that play 5v5 than there is 2v2/3v3. Like you said there is a lot of people that don't consider 2v2/3v3 to be real PvP. Not uncommon for them to treat the miniseasons like the off-season that they replaced.

The impact is greater in 5v5 by default, even if the actual winrates in 2v2/3v3 are higher. Solos should not be matched with or against teams in any gamemode besides unranked.

14 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I take it leasurely. Going for the pips. When it seems lost - quickly surrendering. (Getting killed can end the mach faster cause the other team only needs to kill you.)

🤢👎Heresy

This a game, not a 9 to 5

[Luthan.5236]

Of course ... if the 2 duo queue fights vs. another premade duo of 2 ... it is balanced. But on the other hand: If they fight vs 2 randoms (both queued solo) ... the win is almost guarantueed for the duo queue. In 2 vs. 2. Unless the duo makes big mistaks or queus just for fun/trolling with a bad class combination.

On the other hand: In 5 vs. 5 if both teams have a duo ... it also is balanced. But if only one has a duo the one has an advandage ... that is smaller than in 2 vs. 2 since the other 3 can balance it. The remaining 3 vs. 3 of the other team in that match of 5 vs. 5 ... could have classes/professions where the team without the duo might be better + better players there. This also taking into account that the matchmaker tries to generate teams where the mean score is similar for both.

I certainly got - at least in gold rating - pretty often the case that the duo seemed to overconfident ... team with the duo queue losing. (They also tend to try to "command" other players ... getting angry if not the remaining players of the team play according to their strategy.)

So ... therefore the impact naturally is stronger in a 2 vs. 2.

Edit: And I'd still prefer them removing the queue restrictions completely. I have not played from end 2013 until June 2019. But I still remember the very start in 2012-13. And when it was possiblt to queue with 3, 4, 5 as well ... does not seem a big deal to me if it is 5 vs. 4+1 (one random here the other 5 queued as party of 5). One additional guy can work well - if he/she knows how to look at the minimap and see what the others are doing. (Something that is ... a problem in general. Really depends on the match. Sometimes people are very good at it. Sometimes they just look for their fights to show they can fight in 1 vs. x - ignoring everything else.)

Edit2: They should allow for the "real" PvP to have ranked permanently. I never knew why they had to take breaks between the seasons. (+ the annoying soft resets of the rating). At least let the next real season start immediately. And move the 2 vs. 2 and 3 vs. 3 to a separate queue where they can alternate. Maybe even randomly with both available or one day 2 vs. 2 next day 3 vs. 3. Without seasons. Just for queueing. (Like the normal unranked has normal maps + the stronghold available as well. Checkbox for people to decide whether they want 2 vs. 2 or 3 vs. 3 or both and taking the first one that is ready.)

Edited December 6, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Zombiesbum.3502]

2 hours ago, jdawgie.1835 said:

Lmao. Your strawman is showing. 

Boom. And it is why it failed. Its no longer played as intended. 

He doesnt need to be the designer to have comprehension of the designers intent my guy lol. 

1. That is not a strawman, the video of "evidence" was literally an advert for a 5v5 tournament by the looks of it. It doesn't say anything about design intent.

2. Assertions aren't facts.

3. He needs evidence of the actual design intent from the creator's mouth(s) in order to assert it as a fact. Of course, if he had such evidence, he would have posted it, I'm sure. Additionally, I don't remember anything about the design intent of structured PvP even being stated when I played gw2 in 2012, and I am doubtful this poster is being trueful about what he says.