Fervent Force isn't the problem

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Levetty.1279 said:

That isn't what whataboutism means.

How about I write it out for you then?
Instead of positing a conjecture that Arenanet will change spirit's alacrity which they never stated they would, you should focus on what they stated they will actually change which is Fervent Force.

[Kodama.6453]

24 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

That isn't what whataboutism means.

He meant "that's alot of ifs". There is nothing indicating that we will see a rework for spirits and a quickness support for ranger in the future, working with that assumption isn't probable.

[Levetty.1279]

Except they have stated that they want every class to have access to a quickness and alacrity support spec which is why spirits got alacrity in the first place. You would know this if you spent less time bitching about classes online in an attempt to ruin people's fun in a PvE game and spent more time playing it.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

49 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There is no indication that there will be a quickness sharing build for ranger nor an alacrity warrior.
That's a lot of whataboutism.

There absolutely is an indication- every other profession has one of each boon provider currently, excluding Thief (who got screwed with the "no supports" thing until Spectre), Warrior (who was given a baseline "rare boon" in quickness), and Ranger (who as we know has alac on spirits). There is no reason for them not to rework it as having alacrity on spirits both locks the potential for a quickness spec while also creating a huge balancing issue of "what if the ranger provides their own alac?". Saying "well there's alacrity already so no reason to give ranger quickness whatsoever" makes 0 sense.

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Except they have stated that they want every class to have access to a quickness and alacrity support spec which is why spirits got alacrity in the first place. You would know this if you spent less time bitching about classes online in an attempt to ruin people's fun in a PvE game and spent more time playing it.

Can you provide a source for that statement? I never heard a dev saying they want all classes to have both, alacrity and quickness support. I only recall them saying they want all classes to have access to at least one of these high impact boons.

So if you can provide a link as proof, please do.

[Levetty.1279]

Quote

We want to ensure that every player feels like they’re able to play the profession they like or identify with the most and bring valuable contributions to the group. This means roles should be determined by your build and gear rather than your profession.

 Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Strike Missions, Balance, and Rewards – GuildWars2.com

 

I'm not digging through anet employees reddit posts to provide proof to people who don't actually play the game so you can make do with this.

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

 Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Strike Missions, Balance, and Rewards – GuildWars2.com

 

I'm not digging through anet employees reddit posts to provide proof to people who don't actually play the game so you can make do with this.

Apparently reading reddit is "playing the game".

If you read the patch notes it clearly states Fervent Force is being reevaluated.
 

Quote

Fervent Force is a trait that we're likely to bring down in a future update, but we want to improve other options for untamed before doing so.

Alacrity is a role, a "valuable contribution" as stated in that dev post.

[Kodama.6453]

3 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

 Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons Strike Missions, Balance, and Rewards – GuildWars2.com

 

I'm not digging through anet employees reddit posts to provide proof to people who don't actually play the game so you can make do with this.

That quote says nothing about all classes being able to provide both boons.
In the link you provided, they specifically mentioned "just ranger and warrior are not able to fill the boon support role". Not "unable to fill the quickness and alacrity support roles", they say "the boon support role".

And they don't mention that thief also can't provide quickness.

This tells me that they see "boon support" as the role they want all classes to be able to fill, but not necessarily that you must be able to fill both variants, quickness support and alacrity support, in the same class.

So there is no evidence from what you gave here and you are unwilling to provide any more.... so as I thought, no actual proof.

No clue why you think I don't play the game, btw. But you are very very wrong.

[Levetty.1279]

Oh yeah sorry I forgot the second part of the paragraph which is 

Quote

 Unless that class is Ranger and Warrior then we will never add the second support role because 2 trolls on our forums are upset Fervent Force exists, so go play another class.

 

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How about I write it out for you then?
Instead of positing a conjecture that Arenanet will change spirit's alacrity which they never stated they would, you should focus on what they stated they will actually change which is Fervent Force.

Both can be true. 

The easier fix for Fervent Force is reduce the cooldowns reduction to 3 seconds. I don't think anyone is bold enough to change Path of Scars or prevent FF from trigger its skills own cooldown. 

Ranger will see Quickness but it will most likely be a cheesy way like the utility bar being removed once the Elite has been equipped, maybe we see a Ranger Revenant mix.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Infusion.7149]

13 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Both can be true. 

The easier fix for Fervent Force is reduce the cooldowns reduction to 3 seconds. I don't think anyone is bold enough to change Path of Scars or prevent FF from trigger its skills own cooldown. 

Ranger will see Quickness but it will most likely be a cheesy way like the utility bar being removed once the Elite has been equipped, maybe we see a Ranger Revenant mix.

They aren't going to nerf core skills that have never had an issue just because of Untamed. If they do they will repeat past mistakes.

[Mell.4873]

48 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

They aren't going to nerf core skills that have never had an issue just because of Untamed. If they do they will repeat past mistakes.

I said they wouldn't......? 

The most likely nerf is change FF to 3 seconds. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Mell.4873

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 12/5/2022 at 9:58 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I feel like at this point Untamed identity especially in PvE is tied to Fervent Force. It is the entire reason to play it over Soulbeast, both other grandmaster traits are directly worse than any Soulbeast build. 

I think they don't really understand this, at the very least they could split the trait up and offer a cooldown reduction somewhere else in the traitline so it requires more investment to get back to the power of current Fervent Force. 

This is precisely why it needs to change.

[wolfyrik.2017]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

They aren't going to nerf core skills that have never had an issue just because of Untamed. If they do they will repeat past mistakes.

Unfortunately anet is the God-Emperor of repeating past mistakes. The existance of mechanist proves they have learned nothing in 10 years.

[Kuma.1503]

FF is what makes Untamed fun. They should make it a baseline trait and balance the spec around it. 

[Ashford.8540]

1 hour ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

This is precisely why it needs to change.

issue is, if that is changed, Untamed becomes garbage in PvE, which brings Ranger back to the same issue of only ever having 1 viable spec, and soulbeast is not a fun class considering it's entire existence depends on one wolf pack.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Ashford.8540 said:

issue is, if that is changed, Untamed becomes garbage in PvE

Why does that argument keep getting used when it makes no sense?

Anet already said that they will just touch fervent force once they have improved untamed! Yeah, currently untamed would not be very useful in PvE if they remove it, but they are not doing that. They will make untamed better, THEN deal with fervent force.

[Zaret.1450]

On 12/20/2022 at 11:49 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

This is the exact same problem many other bruiser elite specs are facing in PvE right now, tho.

If deadeye outdamages daredevil, what reason is there to play daredevil?
If spellbreaker isn't the highest dps spec for warrior, why pick it?

Some elite specs get to maneuver around that issue by being the only source of a high impact boon for their class (scrapper is the only way engineer can access quickness, so quickscrapper doesn't compete with any other elite spec in that class, same for willbender with alacrity).

But this is a general issue many bruiser elite specs had to deal with in the past. The point of bruiser specs is having built in defenses, but these defenses are not really valued in PvE because you have other players dedicated to keeping you alive. But generally, untamed does have a niche. It is the elite spec which increases the survivability of a ranger the most while being able to dish out damage. The problem is that this is a niche not really sought after in PvE, but it is useful in competitive modes.

I think you are misunderstanding what is meant wih "role" here.

I am talking about how it was described in Anet's balance manifesto. The concept "purity of purpose" means that every skill/trait/etc. should excel at some roles, while being unable to help in other roles.

The roles they mentioned were stuff like: damage, sustain, boon uptime, mobility, CC, etc.
Fervent force has an impact on all these roles. You get more damage, since your damage abilities have reduced cooldown. You have more sustain, because your sustain abilities have reduced cooldown (including the healing skill). You have more boon uptime, because your boon generating skills have reduced cooldown. You have more CC, because your CC skills have reduced cooldown. This goes on and in.

The trait fills every niche. You want your build to have more damage? Pick fervent force. You want to heal more? Pick fervent force. You want to increase your boon uptime? Pick fervent force.

Meanwhile a trait like ferocious symbiosis has a defined role. It increases your damage and (in fight) mobility. But the trait does not help you getting more sustain, or boon uptime, or CC, etc. There are 2 things this trait does, but it doesn't help with the other stuff. Fervent force does all of these things at once.

Good idea, imo.

FS has a huge problem, it depends on the pet completely, unless you and the pet are attacking an enemy it doesnt stack at all, it would be fine if pets were a bit better but as of now its just a hindrance, pets need a rework, at least in traits, stats and skills related to them.

As for the role on untamed, i think it is suposed to be a heavy cc bruiser, more focused on wvw zerg fights, at least that seems to be the desired idea, now... it doesnt work, i hope that with FF changes (i still think just nerfing it in pve so it reduces 3s instead of 4 it could be fine), it also modifies a couple things on untamed, you know already wich changes id like, as for others... i made a post, you can look there XD

[Ashford.8540]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why does that argument keep getting used when it makes no sense?

Issue is not many people trust Anet to make a better replacement considering their history.

[Zaret.1450]

I say we spam so anet only lowers the cdr to 3 seconds instead of 4 in pve, or just make it 3 secs cdr in every game mode, it could be interesting, i mean it would be just enought of a nerf probably and even if its a bit much they could finaly buff pets, they need it.

[Levetty.1279]

14 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why does that argument keep getting used when it makes no sense?

Anet already said that they will just touch fervent force once they have improved untamed! Yeah, currently untamed would not be very useful in PvE if they remove it, but they are not doing that. They will make untamed better, THEN deal with fervent force.

Because we know Anet and we saw the 'improvements' in the last patch.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

I say we spam so anet only lowers the cdr to 3 seconds instead of 4 in pve, or just make it 3 secs cdr in every game mode, it could be interesting, i mean it would be just enought of a nerf probably and even if its a bit much they could finaly buff pets, they need it.

They should also nerf the ability for stun skills to trigger there own cooldown due to the cast delay. 

Then go ahead an include pets in the FF stun mechanic along with the 3 second buff/nerf. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Zivhayr.3658]

I think munchuswewil said it best.

[Caid.4932]

I think Fervent Force Untamed is huge amounts of fun. The most fun elite spec of EoD. That would be my primary argument against nerfing it. Theres some tidying up to do around the edges with projectiles and axe but i hope they leave the trait more or less as is.

I think in perfect circumstances it gets pretty crazy but perfect circumstances just aren't that common and its merely good the overwhelming majority of the time if played well. Most players will perform better with soulbeast imo. I'm pretty sure i do most of the time.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

7 hours ago, Zivhayr.3658 said:

I think munchuswewil said it best.

I mean I don't think there's a way to reconcile the enjoyable aspects of FF and the fact that it doesn't mesh well with GW2 balance (sadly). Unless they nerf it into a quarter of a second cooled down, at which point most of the enjoyability from using your other skills beyond your weapons/Exploding Spores is going to end up being removed.