How to actually nerf Mesmer invuln/block/whatever

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

In this thread I want to bring up realizable nerfs to tanky Mesmer builds (I've already advocated for all of these in the past but let's collect them in one post).

• Remove Distortion from Virtuoso. What Virtuoso needs is mainly trait reworks, utility/elite reworks, and most importantly quality of life (see my video), not F5 Distortion. Blade Renewal on 40s cd is also a bit iffy.
• Remove or hard nerf the instant 3 stacks of 5s of confusion on Staff #4. In return, rework Phantasmal Warlock so as to not be useless (and preferably less fire-and-forget). And fix the bugged tracking on Winds of Chaos.
• Remove the Distortion on Blurred Inscriptions (Signets).
• Rework Bladeturn Refrain (Aegis on every Bladesong) to something else. This block-spam is unfun, similar to the old blind on every shatter. In return, reduce cast time on Bladesong Harmony and fix the tracking on Bladesong Dissonance (see video).
• Remove the passive 2 condition cleanse when you are disabled from Auspicious Anguish. Increase the number of Conditions converted with Distortion to 4, to compensate.

This will be fine as a start. Note: don't criticize these on the grounds of "Virtuoso is already too weak", I agree that it is weak, there should be buffs/reworks to accompany these nerfs as I mentioned. For one, dagger #3 needs an overhaul.

Edited December 15, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[viquing.8254]

Good summary.

Apart concerning blurred who is currently the only reason to take inspiration.

Mean if you change it, you will have a 100% dead traitline. (And few dead utility too.)

Auspicious anguish should better condi clear on active than create boons to not be pigeon holded in 1 or 2 condiclear options like it was in the past.

Edited December 15, 2022 by viquing.8254

[Sahne.6950]

8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

In this thread I want to bring up realizable nerfs to tanky Mesmer builds (I've already advocated for all of these in the past but let's collect them in one post).

• Remove Distortion from Virtuoso. What Virtuoso needs is mainly trait reworks, utility/elite reworks, and most importantly quality of life (see my video), not F5 Distortion. Blade Renewal on 40s cd is also a bit iffy.
• Remove or hard nerf the instant 3 stacks of 5s of confusion on Staff #4. In return, rework Phantasmal Warlock so as to not be useless (and preferably less fire-and-forget). And fix the bugged tracking on Winds of Chaos.
• Remove the Distortion on Blurred Inscriptions (Signets).
• Rework Bladeturn Refrain (Aegis on every Bladesong) to something else. This block-spam is unfun, similar to the old blind on every shatter. In return, reduce cast time on Bladesong Harmony and fix the tracking on Bladesong Dissonance (see video).
• Remove the passive 2 condition cleanse when you are disabled from Auspicious Anguish. Increase the number of Conditions converted with Distortion to 4, to compensate.

This will be fine as a start. Note: don't criticize these on the grounds of "Virtuoso is already too weak", I agree that it is weak, there should be buffs/reworks to accompany these nerfs as I mentioned. For one, dagger #3 needs an overhaul.

Most of those are solid suggestions, that i can get behind.

i actually "like" it. ❤️

Edited December 15, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

3 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

Good summary.

Apart concerning blurred who is currently the only reason to take inspiration.

Mean if you change it, you will have a 100% dead traitline. (And few dead utility too.)

Auspicious anguish should better condi clear on active than create boons to not be pigeon holded in 1 or 2 condiclear options like it was in the past.

Thanks. Yeah they need to do some work on Inspiration for sure, especially the issue of Restorative Illusions and Blurred Inscriptions typically overshadowing any other options in their tier. For example, it is never ever worth it to take the Focus trait.

Edited December 15, 2022 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Hederrain.9207]

11 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

In this thread I want to bring up realizable nerfs to tanky Mesmer builds (I've already advocated for all of these in the past but let's collect them in one post).

• Remove Distortion from Virtuoso. What Virtuoso needs is mainly trait reworks, utility/elite reworks, and most importantly quality of life (see my video), not F5 Distortion. Blade Renewal on 40s cd is also a bit iffy.
• Remove or hard nerf the instant 3 stacks of 5s of confusion on Staff #4. In return, rework Phantasmal Warlock so as to not be useless (and preferably less fire-and-forget). And fix the bugged tracking on Winds of Chaos.
• Remove the Distortion on Blurred Inscriptions (Signets).
• Rework Bladeturn Refrain (Aegis on every Bladesong) to something else. This block-spam is unfun, similar to the old blind on every shatter. In return, reduce cast time on Bladesong Harmony and fix the tracking on Bladesong Dissonance (see video).
• Remove the passive 2 condition cleanse when you are disabled from Auspicious Anguish. Increase the number of Conditions converted with Distortion to 4, to compensate.

This will be fine as a start. Note: don't criticize these on the grounds of "Virtuoso is already too weak", I agree that it is weak, there should be buffs/reworks to accompany these nerfs as I mentioned. For one, dagger #3 needs an overhaul.

Why wouldnt you ask them to delete virtuoso instead?

Because :  

1.  After your suggestions its gonna be so trash that ppl who never seen the game will farm you.
2.  Its really terrible spec that shoulndt exist

Edited December 15, 2022 by Hederrain.9207

[Mik.3401]

Whilst I see these mechanics are problematic, just look at Vindicator, earth shield ele, any ranger etc. It is toxic mechanic but the whole meta is stupid like that.

These changes would be good while accompanied with almost all other classes receiving similar nerfs. And is it happening? Never.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Morwath.9817]

Turn Distortion into Barrier, done.

 

  

3 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

Whilst I see these mechanics are problematic, just look at Vindicator, earth shield ele, any ranger etc. It is toxic mechanic but the whole meta is stupid like that.

These changes would be good while accompanied with almost all other classes receiving similar nerfs. And is it happening? Never.

Typical Power Ranger has just Block on GS and sometimes Signet of Stone.

[Jobber.6348]

Inb4 Anet be like: Understood, we hear what the player want. 

Removes all dodges from Mesmer and adds more Distortion.

[viquing.8254]

7 hours ago, Hederrain.9207 said:

Why wouldnt you ask them to delete virtuoso instead?

Because :  

1.  After your suggestions its gonna be so trash that ppl who never seen the game will farm you.
2.  Its really terrible spec that shoulndt exist

To be fair virtuoso was never designed to PvP and they ignore 95% of feedback since beta so yeah it's better to rework from scratch with PvP in mind this time.

It was only after release when they see nobody uses it in PvP that they overbuff sustain randomly... Until it was cheesy enough...

Mean look at dagger : 3 damage skills, all useless. Look at overall meta weapons : damage + cc + evade + mobility + (buff) etc. I will not list every flaws already reported on mesmer forums about virtuoso but you get the idea.

Btw It's my opinion and some mes too. You can of course disagree.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

20 hours ago, Hederrain.9207 said:

Why wouldnt you ask them to delete virtuoso instead?

It would be a great insult to the VFX team, which is actually the only professionals that actually made something remarkable about that spec.

[Pengu.7481]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:06 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

• Remove Distortion from Virtuoso. What Virtuoso needs is mainly trait reworks, utility/elite reworks, and most importantly quality of life (see my video), not F5 Distortion. Blade Renewal on 40s cd is also a bit iffy.
• Remove the Distortion on Blurred Inscriptions (Signets).
• Remove the passive 2 condition cleanse when you are disabled from Auspicious Anguish. Increase the number of Conditions converted with Distortion to 4, to compensate.

so to summarize, remove distort, remove cleanse and put more cleanse on distort which we just removed ?

personally id want some more mobility and dmg on virtu instead of the defense bloat, so we agree on that. 

dagger as a wep in pvp is completely redundant, needs a hard rework, some mobility/conditions/non projectile skill. 

the whole profession needs something drastic if its ever gonna work in pvp, slight changes wont cut it

Edited December 16, 2022 by Pengu.7481

[Morwath.9817]

53 minutes ago, Pengu.7481 said:

so to summarize, remove distort, remove cleanse and put more cleanse on distort which we just removed ?

personally id want some more mobility and dmg on virtu instead of the defense bloat, so we agree on that. 

dagger as a wep in pvp is completely redundant, needs a hard rework, some mobility/conditions/non projectile skill. 

the whole profession needs something drastic if its ever gonna work in pvp, slight changes wont cut it

Dagger seems to be hated weapon by Anet, if you think about Ranger, Memer and Necro...

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Dagger seems to be hated weapon by Anet, if you think about Ranger, Memer and Necro...

Then there's thieves and warriors where it's the best weapon in slot

[Morwath.9817]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Then there's thieves and warriors where it's the best weapon in slot

While Spellbreaker dagger is dream weapon, I'd argue that GS is same level due to how much mobility it provides.

For Thief I agree, but we need to remember that dagger being the best weapon is effect of constant nerfing other weapon choices, as in the past we had builds based on other weapons as well, but they were all hit with nerf hammer promoting most annoying weapon.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:06 PM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

In this thread I want to bring up realizable nerfs to tanky Mesmer builds (I've already advocated for all of these in the past but let's collect them in one post).

• Remove Distortion from Virtuoso. What Virtuoso needs is mainly trait reworks, utility/elite reworks, and most importantly quality of life (see my video), not F5 Distortion. Blade Renewal on 40s cd is also a bit iffy.
• Remove or hard nerf the instant 3 stacks of 5s of confusion on Staff #4. In return, rework Phantasmal Warlock so as to not be useless (and preferably less fire-and-forget). And fix the bugged tracking on Winds of Chaos.
• Remove the Distortion on Blurred Inscriptions (Signets).
• Rework Bladeturn Refrain (Aegis on every Bladesong) to something else. This block-spam is unfun, similar to the old blind on every shatter. In return, reduce cast time on Bladesong Harmony and fix the tracking on Bladesong Dissonance (see video).
• Remove the passive 2 condition cleanse when you are disabled from Auspicious Anguish. Increase the number of Conditions converted with Distortion to 4, to compensate.

This will be fine as a start. Note: don't criticize these on the grounds of "Virtuoso is already too weak", I agree that it is weak, there should be buffs/reworks to accompany these nerfs as I mentioned. For one, dagger #3 needs an overhaul.

 

What kind of direction do you want virtuoso/condi mes to go in, in exchange for the tanky iteration it has right now? 

The tracking issues should be dealt with, but as you mentioned that is hardly fair recompense on its own. Do you want something mobile/thiefy, or do you want something skirmish/duel-y? 

[Hotride.2187]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:46 PM, Mik.3401 said:

Whilst I see these mechanics are problematic, just look at Vindicator, earth shield ele, any ranger etc. It is toxic mechanic but the whole meta is stupid like that.

And on other threads/comments requesting nerfs to abilities/traits of other professions, you see the same answers. The meta will stay stupid if that is the argument against changing anything. But oh well.

[viquing.8254]

If it's role is supposed to be long range damaging, maybe look at something more like sniper.

Aka something mobile who damage you from range. With some CC/out of combat options.

 

Talking about gameplay and not how viable it is :

- We already have point holding in core/chrono/mirage.

- Team fight on chrono.

- Roaming on mirage.

 

Currently, what is lacking IMO is long range damage (mirage did it in the past by spamming GS ambushes...) and support gameplay. But actually virtuoso isn't suited at all for support which leave long range damage.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

Now, I'll address the elephant in the room and say that all mesmer abilities has always been balanced about generating 3 "resources"; if your e-spec has to generate 5 "resources", of course you're going to be starved out of things to do; the game gives you about half as much of what you'd actually need. The only way to cope with that are GM traits, but expecting a single trait to rebalance an entire specialization is not going well.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Morwath.9817]

Despite all the flaws, Virtuoso is probably the best designed Mesmer spec, whos not Minionmancer in disguise.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Despite all the flaws, Virtuoso is probably the best designed Mesmer spec, whos not Minionmancer in disguise.

 

I agree with this, but that only makes it more annoying that it's not suitable for conquest (unless you play unlimited tank works and bore both yourself and the opponent to death)

7 hours ago, viquing.8254 said:

If it's role is supposed to be long range damaging, maybe look at something more like sniper.

Aka something mobile who damage you from range. With some CC/out of combat options.

 

Talking about gameplay and not how viable it is :

- We already have point holding in core/chrono/mirage.

- Team fight on chrono.

- Roaming on mirage.

 

Currently, what is lacking IMO is long range damage (mirage did it in the past by spamming GS ambushes...) and support gameplay. But actually virtuoso isn't suited at all for support which leave long range damage.

 

what are your thoughts on, in keeping with this, some bladesongs reflecting projectiles, with bladeturn retaining its up close blocking? 

 

Perhaps you could address the outrange problem by making it sorf of a parry system? 

[Mik.3401]

11 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

And on other threads/comments requesting nerfs to abilities/traits of other professions, you see the same answers. The meta will stay stupid if that is the argument against changing anything. But oh well.

Mesmer has been the worst off as a class for almost all the time since hot or so. The only time it works kind of viableis either distort+condi spam and one-shot power.

What does it say about the class in itself? It is so weak it needs bending/abusing the game to work. Whereas other classes have a little bit of everything in different builds which is always superior.

oh and the devs don’t really follow the Mesmer discussion too closely, it is a common knowledge now they don’t understand the class

[viquing.8254]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

what are your thoughts on, in keeping with this, some bladesongs reflecting projectiles, with bladeturn retaining its up close blocking? 

 

Perhaps you could address the outrange problem by making it sorf of a parry system? 

In the case of  long range damage, what make sniper more viable than virtuoso (if nerfed like op.) is his ability to go out of range with movement/stealth skills combined with strong pressure and few CC to burst opponent. So I think that reflect will not be enough.

[freakcoco.4287]

On 12/15/2022 at 9:06 AM, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

In this thread I want to bring up realizable nerfs to tanky Mesmer builds (I've already advocated for all of these in the past but let's collect them in one post).

• Remove Distortion from Virtuoso. What Virtuoso needs is mainly trait reworks, utility/elite reworks, and most importantly quality of life (see my video), not F5 Distortion. Blade Renewal on 40s cd is also a bit iffy.
• Remove or hard nerf the instant 3 stacks of 5s of confusion on Staff #4. In return, rework Phantasmal Warlock so as to not be useless (and preferably less fire-and-forget). And fix the bugged tracking on Winds of Chaos.
• Remove the Distortion on Blurred Inscriptions (Signets).
• Rework Bladeturn Refrain (Aegis on every Bladesong) to something else. This block-spam is unfun, similar to the old blind on every shatter. In return, reduce cast time on Bladesong Harmony and fix the tracking on Bladesong Dissonance (see video).
• Remove the passive 2 condition cleanse when you are disabled from Auspicious Anguish. Increase the number of Conditions converted with Distortion to 4, to compensate.

This will be fine as a start. Note: don't criticize these on the grounds of "Virtuoso is already too weak", I agree that it is weak, there should be buffs/reworks to accompany these nerfs as I mentioned. For one, dagger #3 needs an overhaul.

I think they need to give mes more substain and less defence skill,  most of heal by mes like nothing.

[apharma.3741]

On 12/28/2022 at 6:11 AM, freakcoco.4287 said:

I think they need to give mes more substain and less defence skill,  most of heal by mes like nothing.

The devs have stated they want mesmer healing/sustain to be weak and intend for mesmers to not be hit in the first place.

I can get behind a lot of these changes but with the devs vision in mind, I guess you would buff it's mobility (shadowsteps and returns) or detarget options if it's not to get hit in the first place. Thing is that's what I would have said for mirage.

 

Would be nice to have a shadowstep on all weapon choices like what they did with Illusionary Leap, but make the return 50% further than the initial leap.

[Jagdtiger.2517]

I think mirage and virtuoso both need an overhaul. Mirage needs two dodges and needs to be balance accordingly, one dodge just feels terrible.