defense spellbreaker overperforming unacceptably

[Dr Meta.3158]

Hammer spellbreaker isn't too bad if you can kite them the entire time. If you're melee with no stability then its awful. I find greatsword defense spellbreaker essentially impossible to fight because of their mobility and extra evasion on top of the regen, resistance, CC spam, full counter right after a stunbreak to punish counterplay, and still high damage for very defensive traitlines used. Though really it may be a less of a case of bringing them down and moreso giving out tools to deal with that to underperformed classes. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Dr Meta.3158

[Seneca.6319]

I find the spellbreakers obnoxious right now. The condi one is absolutely disgusting to play against. I play main mesmer, I've never had problems going against warriors. I know I need to kite them and that's fine, it's part of the way to handle the class. But all it takes for spellbreaker now is to land 1CC and mind you, they have more CC than I can stunbreak even if all my 3 utilities are stunbreaks. After that you're done, you simply have no way of fighting back. Between 2 dodges and 3 stun breaks they will land that 1 CC because they have the durability to absorb a LOT of damage so the longer they stay in the fight the worse it is for you. With my Virtuoso I can take down a friggin Reaper even if he has full shroud. But I can't take down a spellbreaker. I don't consider myself a PRO to have a strong opinion about what should be done but all I can say is that I do not stand a chance against a spellbreaker. In fact, I don't think any class can stand a chance against it right now. I've seen a spellbreaker do a 3v1 and win. That's just insane! And, like others have mentioned here, trying to make your build counter 1 member of the opposing team is nuts, you basically lose all other encounters with the rest of their team. And there's condi cleanse too you need to figure out, can't just take all stunbreaks. Please do not give me the counter argument that mesmers have clones and they can trick melee classes with that. Clones can be distinguished from the main so that's that. In higher leagues everyone knows how to pick out the mesmer from the clones.

 

[Peter.3901]

Fun how they defend spellbreaker while every time i see one he's holding 3 in a spot, and if you try to fight one he will CC you until death, picking spellbreaker is a free win now, every match you see at least one.

[Alabastrum.9361]

Spellbreaker had been strong before the latest buffs, now it even stronger.

Core warrior is in a good spot now as well.

Still there are some warriors that think we are still underperforming. I even saw ppl on war forum and in this post claiming spb to be on the weaker side.

 

Wake up kitten.

Spellbreaker has always been problematic because of the FC mechanic and how hard it is to balance it. Thus wheter it is really overperforming or not is very hard to make out. What is certain is that Spellbreakerbuilds are viable or more throuht all skilllevels at the moment.

 

Stalwart strength (stab + dmg on stab trait) is ridiculously strong.

Why does it even have bonus dmg on it too?

 

All I would hope for is to see adjustment to the newer traits and spb rather than on core skills. There are some core skills you could adjust.

You could also reverse adrenal health to nerf spb. If you wanted you could keep the stacks the way they are now and remove the extra stack that way spn gets 2 on double burst. Core war T3 into T1 gets all 4.

 

War has enough stab acces as is. If the balance team wants to see more stab on warriors they can buff the utilities with stab.

On that note the new banner of tactics is already an excelent utility that i personally like.

 

PS:

I play axe/shield Hammer core def war.

no stab trait. Stop whispering me that I play a broken build etc. ... your embarassing yourselfs.

[noiwk.2760]

spell breaker is a very toxic class right now. . hammer  kitten really 

[Kodama.6453]

While I like that hammer gets some spotlight, it really seems too strong and oppressive right now. Other builds got nerfed for being noob stompers, which this build at least also seems to be, but also seems more potent in general use.

It's not fun for players to get hit once by a CC and then spending an eternity lying on the ground in permanent stunlock.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[freakcoco.4287]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

While I like that hammer gets some spotlight, it really seems too strong and oppressive right now. Other builds got nerfed for being noob stompers, which this build at least also seems to be, but also seems more potent in general use.

It's not fun for players to get hit once by a CC and then spending an eternity lying on the ground in permanent stunlock.

 

For CC, yeah, but there has not much problem for hammer berserker or hammer core war, hammer are too slow that are hard to actually land the skill , also have zero defence on the weaopn ,  and if you miss it you don't have enough adrenaline.

But spellbreaker don't have adrenaline problem , Full Counter is a great defence, that make hammer power.

 

 

[noiwk.2760]

7 hours ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

 

For CC, yeah, but there has not much problem for hammer berserker or hammer core war, hammer are too slow that are hard to actually land the skill , also have zero defence on the weaopn ,  and if you miss it you don't have enough adrenaline.

But spellbreaker don't have adrenaline problem , Full Counter is a great defence, that make hammer power.

 

 

def traitline is busted and its all the def warrior ever gonna need..  adrenal health is insane passive resustain. . they get weakness on burst with basically permanent uptime. .  passive condi clean 1 every time you use burst +1 for each bar of adrenaline thats 2 conditions every burst for spell breaker and  he can easily cast them none stop with FC reset cd on burst and also gaining 7 adrenaline when you disable enemy on def traitline you do hammer burst + FC + hammer burst+GS/any weapon on other hand burst  thats already 4 in a blink..    each clean 2 conditions 

also CC = def..  when you CC enemy he cant attack and you live longer. .  the perma CC on hammer is toxic and disgusting to play normally when a spell breaker catch me i just dont waste anything and let him just kill me..  skills are not hard to land they have decent aoe now and with enemy being CCed its easy to hit anything.. .  on top of that dmg is insane

[Myror.7521]

@noiwk.2760 i mean i would complane actually more about mes when it comes to cc. Like okay warr get many ccs but at least every single one of them is somewhat dodge able. When it comes to mes. Have fun dodge a 0 telegraphed f3 shatter staff 5 and daze mantra xd. (Pistol 5 might be also a cc but this one is at least telegraphed).

 

Just warrior is  a noob slayer if you make a mistake you get punished hard by a warr but if you play right you should be able to kill him pretty ezy^^ this comes when a class got many ccs that could be comb together. All I say is if you dont spam you stunbrakes headless you should be totaly fine against a warr in 1v1 ^^

[Terrorhuz.4695]

2 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@noiwk.2760 When it comes to mes. Have fun dodge a 0 telegraphed f3 shatter staff 5 and daze mantra xd. (Pistol 5 might be also a cc but this one is at least telegraphed)

I'm sure you noticed the common theme about all of these CC you mentioned:
1) They're soft CC; you can dodge
2) They have a very low duration (1s for F3 and mantra of distraction, 0.5s for staff5 and chrono F3) as they're intended to rupt a single skill, rather than being hard CC you can combo into.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[noiwk.2760]

5 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@noiwk.2760 i mean i would complane actually more about mes when it comes to cc. Like okay warr get many ccs but at least every single one of them is somewhat dodge able. When it comes to mes. Have fun dodge a 0 telegraphed f3 shatter staff 5 and daze mantra xd. (Pistol 5 might be also a cc but this one is at least telegraphed).

 

Just warrior is  a noob slayer if you make a mistake you get punished hard by a warr but if you play right you should be able to kill him pretty ezy^^ this comes when a class got many ccs that could be comb together. All I say is if you dont spam you stunbrakes headless you should be totaly fine against a warr in 1v1 ^^

both mesmer and warrior are toxic and bad for the game balance right now. . 

saying warrior die if it makes mistakes its a big lie thoi.. . this class is insanely tanky with crazy life regen passivly decent mobility amazing stability from def traitline  sorry warrior is unacceptavbly op and toxic right now 

[noiwk.2760]

5 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I'm sure you noticed the common theme about all of these CC you mentioned:
1) They're soft CC; you can dodge
2) They have a very low duration (1s for F3 and mantra of distraction, 0.5s for staff5 and chrono F3) as they're intended to rupt a single skill, rather than being hard CC you can combo into.

 false.. once a spell breaker catch you you can not do anything 

[Myror.7521]

@Terrorhuz.4695 hmm yea fair points ^^. Buut also instead of as most hard ccs of warr they actually deal some dmg. Thats just also a point. But still they are dodge able if your not Immob at that time thats true^^. Still tho I myself dont have that hard issues agsinst most warr builds ever while im just on a build with only 1 cc Brake^^. So for me its still a skill issue not a build issue or something like that xd

[Myror.7521]

@noiwk.2760 well he meant mes not warrior on his list. Tho wouldnt say mes or warrior are toxic for the games balance. Its more like they are get some builds that are (mace/mace/hammer warrior or condi spell as an example for warrior). But all (or most) of this toxic builds are not meta just for a reason xd^^

 

[noiwk.2760]

1 minute ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 hmm yea fair points ^^. Buut also instead of as most hard ccs of warr they actually deal some dmg. Thats just also a point. But still they are dodge able if your not Immob at that time thats true^^. Still tho I myself dont have that hard issues agsinst most warr builds ever while im just on a build with only 1 cc Brake^^. So for me its still a skill issue not a build issue or something like that xd

you can not dodge if you are CCed  once you get CC;ed by a spell breaker you can never get free or dodge the hits..   its a chain of CC that make sure to keep you locked in CC and thats the main problem. .   FC apply immobalize +slow and cripple.   hammer have so many stuns and the damage on hammer 2 is insane.     warrior have plenty of amazing stun breaks infact the best ones..  30 seconds shake it off with 5 condition cleans and cc break. .   and plenty more. . they chose not to use more CC breks..  
but a weapon like hammer that have endless amount of CC should not have dmg at all.  
warrior with defense traitline  and hammer  especially a Spell breaker with FC to add more cc  is simply OP right now and very toxic ..   its not only a noob crusher but its also top meta in competitive..  its a generally over performing class..    defense traitline offer too much of everything ..   too much free regen too much condi clean if chosen too much stability if chosen..  too much weakness aplication  and it deserve to be nerfed .. . now i dont want Anet to delete defense traitline but tune it down alittle bit and then tune down hammer as a weapon and this will do the job 

[noiwk.2760]

4 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@noiwk.2760 well he meant mes not warrior on his list. Tho wouldnt say mes or warrior are toxic for the games balance. Its more like they are get some builds that are (mace/mace/hammer warrior or condi spell as an example for warrior). But all (or most) of this toxic builds are not meta just for a reason xd^^

 

they are the meta actually..  hammer and defense traitline is the meta for warrior. . its meta for core its meta for berzeker and its meta on spell breaker..   defense traitline is so strong and this also enable the option for condition spell breaker.. .   spell breaker isnt a condi class but defense traitline with its insane survive enable that 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

1) They're soft CC; you can dodge
2) They have a very low duration

They're also instant cast and can be used while CC'd. Very big thing missing there.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Defense traitline and warrior are honestly fine. Its full counter, and full counter alone that takes it significantly over the top. Full counter by itself is the core reason why warrior can't have nice things. If you had a day where the spellbreaker elite spec was impossible to select. You'd see the bandwagon warriors dropping off from play in pvp that entire day and swapping to catalyst.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Defense traitline and warrior are honestly fine. Its full counter, and full counter alone that takes it significantly over the top. Full counter by itself is the core reason why warrior can't have nice things. If you had a day where the spellbreaker elite spec was impossible to select. You'd see the bandwagon warriors dropping off from play in pvp that entire day and swapping to catalyst.

Give it the proper CD reduction from Versatile Power and see what happens. Currently It reduces the CD by too much.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

7 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

Defense traitline and warrior are honestly fine. Its full counter, and full counter alone that takes it significantly over the top. Full counter by itself is the core reason why warrior can't have nice things. If you had a day where the spellbreaker elite spec was impossible to select. You'd see the bandwagon warriors dropping off from play in pvp that entire day and swapping to catalyst.

You're right, but how to tone down FC without ruining it?

Well, either do that or buff Serk / Bladesworn mechanics. They could use it.

Then core buffs/nerfs should be more balanced between all the specs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You're right, but how to tone down FC without ruining it?

There is a long running bug where Versatile Power reduces the CD by an extra 12%, basically with Discipline it is available every 8.75 seconds, when it is supposed to be every 10.2 seconds. You address the bug first before anything else. With BSW they nerfed TR properly, and fixed the bugs properly, but then nerfed DSD with the stab removal which was over the top.

Take care of the bug, then evaluate things from there.

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Well, either do that or buff Serk / Bladesworn mechanics. They could use it.

For Berserker, reworking Blood Reaction to be like Pure Strike, giving half the damage boost from Bloody Roar out of Berserk Mode, and having Berserk either grant Burst related traits or not cost Adrenaline would help it.

For Berserk, having it cost adrenaline while not counting as a Burst is wrong.

For BSW, they need to address some of it's clunk and streamline it.

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Then core buffs/nerfs should be more balanced between all the specs.

Arms still needs a rework, OH mace, OH Sword, and OH Dagger all need polishing. Tactic's needs its Marching Orders mechanic reworked.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 is right; the correct action to rein in SpB is to fix the bug on FC so that its CD is 10.2CD.  That represents a 16.5% nerf not only to FC, but also to all that FC provides/triggers.  A non-exhaustive list:

 

-An evade, source of Stab, and 1.5s daze on FC itself

-refreshes burst skills (a massive part of SpB's offense)

-triggers burst related traits, most notably Adrenal Healing and Cleansing Ire in the current meta

-applies weakness (cull the weak), immobilize (no escape), and slow and cripple (slow counter)

-Grants adrenaline if you are running Merciless Hammer

-Grants resistance (revenge counter) or applies magebane tether

 

So ALL of that is being nerfed by 16.5% with one simple change.

 

Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. Because. Of. One. E-spec.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 is right; the correct action to rein in SpB is to fix the bug on FC so that its CD is 10.2CD.  That represents a 16.5% nerf not only to FC, but also to all that FC provides/triggers.  A non-exhaustive list:

 

-An evade, source of Stab, and 1.5s daze on FC itself

-refreshes burst skills (a massive part of SpB's offense)

-triggers burst related traits, most notably Adrenal Healing and Cleansing Ire in the current meta

-applies weakness (cull the weak), immobilize (no escape), and slow and cripple (slow counter)

-Grants adrenaline if you are running Merciless Hammer

-Grants resistance (revenge counter) or applies magebane tether

 

So ALL of that is being nerfed by 16.5% with one simple change.

 

Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. Because. Of. One. E-spec.

^ Gestures at above ^

It is a long running bug, that has been openly discussed. That it is still present means one of two things:

1. Fixing it is known to Anet to break something else in the code
2. The know and have left it in because they felt Spellbreaker needed it to function
3. They know and did not care

Personally I think it is number 2, but with the buffs to Defense this is not longer valid I think.

[Seneca.6319]

I went and tried the hammer build in an unranked match. I have no idea how to play spellbreaker in PVP, or warrior for that matter. But I took every CC I could take coupled with Defense traitline and some cleansing. I was on Rampage the whole game. That should say something no ? The players weren't bad to be honest but the amount of CC I could deal in an AOE really changed the balance of the game. And with every CC I was getting quickness, boon rip and heal. Basically I would always get 3 peeps to focus on me while the rest of my team would clean them up. That is very unbalanced, I could survive while being focused long enough for my team to kill everyone else. 

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Give it the proper CD reduction from Versatile Power and see what happens. Currently It reduces the CD by too much.

That is true.

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You're right, but how to tone down FC without ruining it?

Well, either do that or buff Serk / Bladesworn mechanics. They could use it.

Then core buffs/nerfs should be more balanced between all the specs.

I would replace full counter with mage bane tether. Its far more thematic to the mage killer theme while just giving a personal amp vs melee vs cmfull counter which is more oppressive towards melee combatants than ranged combatants. The replacement of full counter also takes care of the visual bug where the animation constantly loops making it even harder to play around full counter.

14 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 is right; the correct action to rein in SpB is to fix the bug on FC so that its CD is 10.2CD.  That represents a 16.5% nerf not only to FC, but also to all that FC provides/triggers.  A non-exhaustive list:

 

-An evade, source of Stab, and 1.5s daze on FC itself

-refreshes burst skills (a massive part of SpB's offense)

-triggers burst related traits, most notably Adrenal Healing and Cleansing Ire in the current meta

-applies weakness (cull the weak), immobilize (no escape), and slow and cripple (slow counter)

-Grants adrenaline if you are running Merciless Hammer

-Grants resistance (revenge counter) or applies magebane tether

 

So ALL of that is being nerfed by 16.5% with one simple change.

 

Do. Not. Nerf. Core. Traits. Because. Of. One. E-spec.

I've been calling it for a while. Warrior as a whole is going to die because of spellbreaker and can never be good because of spellbreaker. Spellbreaker is the daredevil of warrior.