Strikes don't replace raids. We need Wing 8

[Einsof.1457]

1 hour ago, Renegated.4132 said:

They have, they added a buff that basically forces you to take down the boss sooner or later since for every wipe you get an increase on stats. The only thing you need to do is know the mechs, the rest will arrive.

 

Something they could do aswell it's the same as Lost Ark did, release a reduced version of the raids so people can train the mechs on a "safe environment" so when they go to the good one, they can defend themselves.

 

Wing 1 for example:

VG: Split at 50%, floor iluminates at 66% and 33%.

Gorseval: Spirits at 50%, explosion reduces 90% of the health instead of instakill.

Sabetha: Kernan appears at 66%, Knucles appears at 33%.

 

It will make the wing easier so people can learn most of the mechs of the bosses, so when they go in they'll have a good base to work with. Obviously it gives worse rewards or directly different ones that show how many training you've got and, once you take down the real boss, allows you to exchange the training KP for the real ones (x5 training -> 1 KP)

 

Ways to improve the raids exist, something else is that they don't give a kitten and consider it dead content, because the only thing they need to do is ask the community and they will recieve a rain of ideas.

It's already insanely easy. There is almost no enrage timers and when there are it is super forgiving. Let's not pretend non cm-raids are anything other than easy mode. The challenge people seem to have is finding like minded people to play with, not the encounters themselves. arena net is disconnected from reality on this after implementing emboldened when they should have implemented better group finding tools, instead. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[vares.8457]

34 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I'd rather have one raid wing a year than 4 strikes per year. It's completely doable. Stop making excuses. 

I prefer strike missions. I mainly play WvW but when I want to play PvE then it should be quick like strike missions. I don’t want to spend an evening doing raids. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by vares.8457

[Renegated.4132]

1 hour ago, vares.8457 said:

I prefer strike missions. I mainly play WvW but when I want to play PvE then it should be quick like strike missions. I don’t want to spend an evening doing raids. 

 

Both things don't need to be the opposite one from another, FF XIV has both without issue, Lost Ark has the Guardian Hunts and raids, i don't know if WoW has something similar...

 

They're not creating/incentivating raids just because they don't want to.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Players mostly play wings 1 to 4 nowadays, because these are a bit more forgiving and allow experienced players to carry a few less experienced players without too much risk to the raid. I'm still open for a raid wing 8, but I hope it will be at the accessibility level of wings 1-4 rather than wings 5-7.

[Renegated.4132]

26 minutes ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

Players mostly play wings 1 to 4 nowadays, because these are a bit more forgiving and allow experienced players to carry a few less experienced players without too much risk to the raid. I'm still open for a raid wing 8, but I hope it will be at the accessibility level of wings 1-4 rather than wings 5-7.

 

It's not that those are forgiving, in fact, to this day, Sabetha is BY FAR the most difficult boss on all the raids, what happens it's that they released specs more broken than the previous ones without balancing the current PvE activities, ¿Result? Wings 1-4 are a walk in the park due to how broken is everyone. On HoT taking down VG ultrafast was something only obtainable be qT or SnowCrows, now even with a comp full random you're capable of taking him down due to how much DPS everyone has.

[Bakeneko.5826]

9 hours ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

Both things don't need to be the opposite one from another, FF XIV has both without issue, Lost Ark has the Guardian Hunts and raids, i don't know if WoW has something similar...

 

They're not creating/incentivating raids just because they don't want to.

Go play those games?

[Yasai.3549]

I definitely don't mind more Wings but I think Strikes is how Anet intends to package their content in the future. 
 

Raids right now: 
It's more like a 10 man dungeon than anything. You clear the wing for the week, it's friggin cleared and you can't do it anymore lest you jump into an instance which someone who hasn't cleared. That means a static just does 1 clear per week andddd their content is locked out from the static. Fun. 

Strikes right now: 
You can do it as many times as you want for fun, even if you've already got the clear. You can keep running for Shards from dailies. Fast and bursty content to get that Boss-fight itch. This one is especially great for people who don't have alot of time to play daily, but want a burst of mechanics and fights and a suitable reward. 

Strikes definitely seem influenced by how other mmos these days package their endgame content, which is fast, intense and engaging. Normal Strikes are very accessible and CMs are very tight and structured. Definitely easier to consume, and thus more welcoming as an endgame staple. 

 

[Renegated.4132]

2 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Go play those games?

 

I know they have this kind of content because I played them already maybe? Also, I don't know if it's usefull to ask people to leave when the game has already seen a huge decrease on players compared to previous years.

 

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I definitely don't mind more Wings but I think Strikes is how Anet intends to package their content in the future. 
 

Raids right now: 
It's more like a 10 man dungeon than anything. You clear the wing for the week, it's friggin cleared and you can't do it anymore lest you jump into an instance which someone who hasn't cleared. That means a static just does 1 clear per week andddd their content is locked out from the static. Fun. 

Strikes right now: 
You can do it as many times as you want for fun, even if you've already got the clear. You can keep running for Shards from dailies. Fast and bursty content to get that Boss-fight itch. This one is especially great for people who don't have alot of time to play daily, but want a burst of mechanics and fights and a suitable reward. 

Strikes definitely seem influenced by how other mmos these days package their endgame content, which is fast, intense and engaging. Normal Strikes are very accessible and CMs are very tight and structured. Definitely easier to consume, and thus more welcoming as an endgame staple. 

 

 

The issue with the raids is that, NORMALLY, those tell you about the lore of the world, Wings 1 to 3 show you that how something as simple as taking down a group of random bandits can end up on raiding  one operational base of the most dangerous organization of the human society, and we started with that, taking down random bandits that were there just a disguise, the first time I saw the White Mantle on the second wing it was like "WTF are these assholes doing here?", and Wing 4 shows that not everything is history it's what it seems, since Saul, despite being stupid, tried to clean himself while on exile to be able to return as someone new, only to discover he had been used all the time and imprisoned due to refusing to obey once he discovered the truth.

 

Strikes don't have this kind of magic, since those are mostly the same content you already played on the main storyline, but adapted for a 10-man squad.

 

With wing 8-9 they can deep a bit on the origin of the Djinns, to maybe discover that Zommoros acts kinda like the dragons and djinns are his minions in order to do a certain task. We discovered how the Forge of Zommoros works, we discovered where the city of the djinns was located, why not look a bit deep on the city and it's history?

We've been told since min 1 that Elder Dragons are a bunch of assholes that only destroy to end up discovering that it was the opposite, they were the filter that prevented the world to go boum. If they can do this kind of backflips with the main story, they can do it with the lore they have in general.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Renegated.4132

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Renegated.4132 said:

when the game has already seen a huge decrease on players compared to previous years.

citation needed

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

I know they have this kind of content because I played them already maybe? Also, I don't know if it's usefull to ask people to leave when the game has already seen a huge decrease on players compared to previous years.

 

Hold on here. I'm actually going to say that if there are people who play this game that aren't getting the content they want that exists in other games ... then it is extremely useful to remind them they should be playing games that suit their particular gaming needs because Anet making a decision to provide new content is a business decision based on how the market is interacting with their services and products. 

I mean, if the business is doing well with it's current offerings, then the idea to change or add new offerings is not likely to be based on negative business results. Flip that around ... why would Anet do things like cancel raid development if that content was good for business? They wouldn't ... which makes it really easy to conclude Anet doesn't do things that would intentionally harm it's business. People are ignoring the history here to push their agenda ... as normal. 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on here. I'm actually going to say that if there are people who play this game that aren't getting the content they want that exists in other games ... then it is extremely useful to remind them they should be playing games that suit their particular gaming needs because Anet making a decision to provide new content is a business decision based on how the market is interacting with their services and products. 

I mean, if the business is doing well with it's current offerings, then the idea to change or add new offerings is not likely to be based on negative business results. Flip that around ... why would Anet do things like cancel raid development if that content was good for business? They wouldn't ... which makes it really easy to conclude Anet doesn't do things that would intentionally harm it's business. People are ignoring the history here to push their agenda ... as normal. 

 

 

 

Raids didn't die because they were bad per se, they died, aside of some elitism flooding them that made a lot of people flee, because the step from the highest difficulty content towards raids was descomunal (said by Anet, that's why strikes were born), it was moving from playing with dirt to build a building, no learning whatsover on the middle. BY ANET WORDS strikes were meant to minimaze that, being an in-between fractals and raids so people could have somewhere to get experience instead of jumping directly into the frey, so we decided to wait. What's the point of creating a bridge to a certain content if then you are not gonna fill up that content? You want people to play it? Keep updating it and giving it resources/reasons to the players to go doing that content, people will not play a content they know ANet will not update or give more content than the one it's already existent, if not look at the dungeons.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Renegated.4132

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

Raids didn't die because ...

I'm not here to discuss why raids died ... it has nothing to do with the reply I made to you. My reply to you is simple ... there isn't anything unreasonable about telling people that they should play the games that have the things they want. There is nothing good that comes out of a game trying to retain or clawback players that aren't happy with existing content or players that hang on playing a game they don't like the content of with wishful thinking it will change to give them what they want. Those players likely won't spend money on the game, or even be happy with the state of the game either. Anyone that doesn't understand this kind of fundamental customer/business interaction needs only to do a simple google search. 

GW2 getting more raids is a business decision. Business decisions (at least with competent businesses) involve using data about customer behaviours and interaction with the business. There was obviously a previous decision to stop making new raids, likely due to these customer behaviours and interaction. What's changed? Introduction of strikes ... Does it make sense to think the introduction of strikes as the focus on endgame content is a reason to bring raids back?

It's pretty simple here: Strikes don't replace raids? For players who believe that and want new raids who haven't got a new one for 3 years, the path forward should be PRETTY OBVIOUS. The REAL answer to that question is with the statistics related to how players interact with the game, not crafted to sound like the truth by a biased forum poster who insists the game cater to things they want. 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not here to discuss why raids died ... it has nothing to do with the reply I made to you. My reply to you is simple ... people should choose games that have content that appeals to them. No one should believe that the game will change to give them what they want, especially if the thing they want was previously removed for reasons that are still relevant. 

Therefore, there isn't anything unreasonable about telling people that they should play the games that have the things they want  that GW2 doesn't deliver in a satisfying way to them. There is nothing good that comes out of a game trying to claw back players that aren't happy with the content that are unlikely spending money on the game in the first place. 

 

 

We will be arguing in circles, I enjoy the PvE that GW2 has, but as a veteran I find extremely sad the fact that they create a ladder to a content that they consider dead because "It doesn't attract people" and that it could be a lot more than now if only they listened the community/putted it a bit of effort, I don't know, maybe fight toxicity (found 3 right now that they've atleast being polite when saying "kitten you noobs"), maybe give better rewards, maybe revamp it so it becomes more accessible... There are options 1000 to make raids an attractive content, and for now, from all those 1000, they've choosen to add a buff that just increases your stats.

 

And as I said, I've been on other games and, AS THEY ARE NOW, raids and strikes can coexist perfectly fine, the only thing they need to do is make raids more attractive, and the only way to do that it's to keep adding wings or revamp them, because otherwise it will happen the same it happened with the dungeons, they look great, but not even Peter wants to touch them, plus they give us no real reason to do so aside of the main campaign. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Renegated.4132

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

We will be arguing in circles, I enjoy the PvE that GW2 has, but as a veteran I find extremely sad the fact that they create a ladder to a content that they consider dead because "It doesn't attract people". I don't know, maybe fight toxicity (found 3 that they've atleast being polite when saying "kitten you noobs"), maybe give better rewards, maybe revamp it so it becomes more accessible... There are options 1000 to make raids an attractive content, and for now, from all those 1000, they've choosen to add a buff that just increases your stats.

 

And as I said, I've been on other games and, AS THEY ARE NOW, raids and strikes can coexist perfectly fine, the only thing they need to do is make raids more attractive, and the only way to do that it's to keep adding wings or revamp them, because otherwise it will happen the same it happened with the dungeons, they look great, but not even Peter wants to touch them, plus they give us no real reason to do so aside of the main campaign. 

You might find it sad but that's reality and no amount of fashioning clever messages or arguments on the forums will change that.

What can change that? The very thing you said we shouldn't be doing ... encouraging people to make better choices in what games they spend their time/money on.  They more accurate Anet's data is about their customers and what their customers are and are not doing, the better they can serve them or try to appeal to a wider audience.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You might find it sad but that's reality and no amount of fashioning clever messages or arguments on the forums will change that.

What will change that? The very thing you said we shouldn't be doing ... encouraging people to make better choices in what games they spend their time/money on. 

 

We are not asking for an impossible, we are asking them to what any MMO would do, give endgame content. They made a mistake, releasing the raids with no in-between between them and the fractals, resulting on a lot of people not touching the raids because of the hard difficulty it had, they learned from the mistake and from that strikes are born, filling that gap between fractals and raids. If strikes were something you needed to program aside of the main story I would understand that they move resources from the raids to strikes, but strikes right now are just a 10-man version of a story instance on it's base, and the CM version of them it's not something the community finds "urgent", aside of speedrunners.

 

The only thing they need to do is ask the community what they expect to find on a raid, if a challenge, if tough mechs, surprising bosses... GW2 along with FF XIV has one of the most collaborative communities the world of gaming has.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Renegated.4132

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

We are not asking for an impossible, we are asking them to what any MMO would do, give endgame content.

OK ... again, I'm not arguing with you what you are asking for or if you think if Anet makes mistakes. I'm telling you that you are wrong when you say we shouldn't be telling people to play other games that give them what they want. I also told you why you are wrong as well.

Customers speaking with their time/money is MUCH more meaningful to how a business decides what it offers than random asks from random people. If that customer data is inaccurate (because they continue to patronize the game), then the messaging here doesn't match the reality. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... again, I'm not arguing with you what you are asking for or if you think if Anet makes mistakes. I'm telling you that you are wrong when you say we shouldn't be telling people to play other games that give them what they want and I told you why.

Customers speaking with their time/money is MUCH more meaningful to how a business decides what it offers than random asks from random people. 

I find wrong to say people to leave because I hate to see a game I like lose people because of a stupid decision, "People don't like raids, let's just not invest on them", excuse me but no, if ON ANY OTHER MMO THAT HAS RAIDS people keeps playing them it's for a reason, the logic thing to do it's asking why on the other games people keeps going to the raids and on yours no, not just say "It's a failure, let's move on". They need to give people a reason to go there, a player that has his roster full ascended has no real reason to go in aside of going cause yolo since the best rewards, that are the ascended items, are no longer a need for him, and the gold it's not a reason, you can do more gold with bounties or leather farm than by raiding.

 

Right now this is the strongest flaw raids have in GW2, they're not appealing enough for people to say "I want to do that content". For the veterans the issue is kinda fine, but for someone who is building a character he sees the raids and thinks "Why should I go to a harder content to get the same I can get on an easier way?" and they just remain on fractals or strikes.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Renegated.4132

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

I find wrong to say people to leave because I hate to see a game I like lose people because of a stupid decision, "People don't like raids, let's just not invest on them", excuse me but no, if ON ANY OTHER MMO THAT HAS RAIDS people keeps playing them it's for a reason, the logic thing to do it's asking why on the other games people keeps going to the raids and on yours no, not just say "It's a failure, let's move on". They need to give people a reason to go there, a player that has his roster full ascended has no real reason to go in aside of going cause yolo since the best rewards, that are the ascended items, are no longer a need for him, and the gold it's not a reason, you can do more gold with bounties or leather farm than by raiding.

 

Right now this is the strongest flaw raids have in GW2, they're not appealing enough for people to say "I want to do that content".

Whether you hate it or not is irrelevant. It's the correct answer, for the reason I gave you. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Whether you hate it or not is irrelevant. It's the correct answer, for the reason I gave you. 

Sadly no, here the one who's wrong it's you, telling people to leave a game they probably like because the company has thrown the towel instead of asking the community what's the issue that makes them not playing a certain piece of content.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

Sadly no, here the one who's wrong it's you, telling people to leave a game they probably like because the company has thrown the towel instead of asking the community what's the issue that makes them not playing a certain piece of content.

No I'm not wrong. I'm certain that Anet is basing business decisions on data and information, not the rhetoric of biased forum posters. If how people act is not reflecting how they feel about the game, then it's the players giving Anet the wrong data/information about what they think of the game. 

I'm not telling anyone to leave if they like the game ... that's just nonsense. I don't know what you're talking about. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No I'm not wrong. I'm certain that Anet is more likely to base business decisions on data and information, not the rhetoric of baias forum posters

So, you find unnecessary to ask THE ONES WHO ARE KEEPING YOUR BUSINESS ALIVE how to improve it? Amazing.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

So, you find unnecessary to ask THE ONES WHO ARE KEEPING YOUR BUSINESS ALIVE how to improve it? Amazing.

I never said that ... this is just something you invented to deflect from the truth of what I'm saying. 

Again, Anet stopping raid development was a business decision. Something about the information they had from GW2 and it's customers resulted in that. Seems to me any claims about 'the ones' that keep the business alive being the people that wanis probably an exaggeration. If raiders were 'the ones' in this case, it would be reflected in how successful the game is 3 years after the decision to stop making them. 

I mean, at this point, you are going to argue that people that want new raids are the ones 'keeping the business alive' ... I'm just going to point out that we haven't had a new raid for 3 years and the business is still here. So ... the game needs these people and new raids to 'be alive'? No, it doesn't. 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I never said that ... this is just something you invented to deflect from the truth of what I'm saying. 

 

"I'm certain that Anet is more likely to base business decisions on data and information, not the rhetoric of baias forum posters"

 

This forum exists for various reasons, and one of those reasons it's to let devs and Anet people in general the opinion on the current state of the game, i'm not gonna deny you the fact that data and info are important, but ignoring the ones who are putting money on your business it's equaly a failure as ignoring said data and info.

 

It would not be that hard to make a poll asking the community in general what makes them not want to play raids, either being time, rewards not being enough attractive, they seem to hard, requisites too high... To know how the terrain is and act based on that + the rest of data and info they get.

Right now the raiding community is on it's lows, not because raids are bad, but because the last time we had something to celebrate was on 2019. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Renegated.4132

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Renegated.4132 said:

 

"I'm certain that Anet is more likely to base business decisions on data and information, not the rhetoric of baias forum posters"

 

This forum exists for various reasons, and one of those reasons it's to let devs and Anet people in general the opinion on the current state of the game, i'm not gonna deny you the fact that data and info are important, but ignoring the ones who are putting money on your business it's equaly a failure as ignoring said data and info.

 

It would not be that hard to make a poll asking the community in general what makes them not want to play raids, either being time, rewards not being enough attractive, they seem to hard, requisites too high... To know how the terrain is and act based on that + the rest of data and info they get.

Sure, the forum exists for various reasons ... I'm not debating why the forum exists or talk about any of this other stuff you are saying in most of your posts.

I'm just here to ensure that you understand it's not wrong to tell people to play other games that give them what they want, especially if you want changes to the game of kind we are talking about here, because that affects the data that Anet is likely using to make strategic content decisions. The argument for Anet to change their content strategy is not one lightly taken based on how many posts biased forum posters make.

I'm just going to throw this out there ... what is your aversion to acknowledging GW2 is part of a business and its content is determined by that fact? 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Renegated.4132]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, the forum exists for various reasons ... I'm not debating why the forum exists or talk about any of this other stuff you are saying in most of your posts.

I'm just here to ensure that you understand it's not wrong to tell people to play other games that give them what they want, especially if you want changes to the game of kind we are talking about here. The argument for Anet to change their content strategy is not one lightly taken based on biased forum posters.

I'm just going to throw this out there ... what is your aversion to acknowledging GW2 is part of a business and it's content is determined by that fact? 

 

It's not aversion per se, it's the fact that instead of atleast bothering a bit to ask themselves what went wrong they simply decided to throw the towel and move forward. What have the other MMO that make raids attractive to players GW2 doesn't have? Simple, rewards. What raids offer can be obtained by any other means, to the point of not even needing to do PvE at all. Why should you bother to achieve something the hard way when you can obtain the same via PvP or WvW, that it's a 1000 times easier? ¿Legendary Armor? There's a WvW and a PvP version of it, you just leave the trinkets and weapons ascended and you're good to go. Right now raids offer no reason to the player to go in, since everything that can be obtained there, can be obtained on the other games modes, it won't be the same armor, but the effect will be the same.

 

What makes raids attractive on the other MMO it's the fact of being able to obtain rewards that can only be obtained there,