So about Cantha and Zhaitan...

[cyberzombie.7348]

Since Zhaitan destroyed much of old Cantha, shouldn't both the empress and locals be given an update on that dragon, while letting them know the Pact and I were responsible for it?

Or is there something that I missed because that would've been perfect for political leverage and a word of caution of the prowess outside of Cantha. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Since Zhaitan destroyed much of old Cantha, shouldn't both the empress and locals be given an update on that dragon, while letting them know the Pact and I were responsible for it?

Or is there something that I missed because that would've been perfect for political leverage and a word of caution of the prowess outside of Cantha. 

Threatening the local empire with the fact you killed Zhaitan isn't exactly a great first impression to make after 200 years of isolation. That's the exact opposite tact one would take in that situation.

[cyberzombie.7348]

I'm not saying threaten or do any glamorous boasting, just giving them an update like something along the line of "Zhaitan was the one responsible for the destruction of Cantha right? You should know that it's dead for good, and the entity that brought it down is known as the Pact." Then let the court make their judgment off of that.

Or be put under further investigation by Rama, accompanied by a stenographer/reporter. With the information given and discrepancies sorted out it would be put on official records that neither you nor anyone affiliated with you is not there for malicious reasons. But also serves as an eye-opener to what the outside has to offer. Then by the time you reach NKC, news would come out about Zhaitan's death and a foreigner washed up on shore. 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Feel like it's implied she already knew when she mentioned knowing about the formation of the pact. 

[Kalavier.1097]

20 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Feel like it's implied she already knew when she mentioned knowing about the formation of the pact. 

It's not like there was what.. a week? couple weeks of negotiations while you were recovering and out of it.

You know, plenty of time for them to be informed by the actual diplomats that Zhaitan was dead.

 

On 1/13/2023 at 2:05 PM, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Since Zhaitan destroyed much of old Cantha, shouldn't both the empress and locals be given an update on that dragon, while letting them know the Pact and I were responsible for it?

Or is there something that I missed because that would've been perfect for political leverage and a word of caution of the prowess outside of Cantha. 

Zhaitan's wave wrecked the city. It wasn't like he purposefully targeted Cantha, and by all indications we are given the Risen presence is simply local that continued to stick around/corrupt corpses, and Zhaitan never directly sent more risen/attacked Cantha.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

SPOILERS FOR PERSONAL STORY, PATH OF FIRE, LIVING WORLD SEASON 4 AND END OF DRAGONS

They already know, it was confirmed a long time ago the Order of Whispers still had contact with both Cantha and Elona, though cooperation with Elona was strained due to the Order of Shadows' origin.

 

Its just people in general didn't visit these regions because the best transport method was by water and traversing the waters to other continents was extremely dangerous with the elder dragons around. Many still did, however, like the Olmakahn. The only reason it became safer is because of airships and a general thinning-out of dragon minions  (few of which are aerial to begin with).

 

That said, Joon implies updated knowledge was hard to get, and her collection is quite outdated.
 

Furthermore, keep in mind Cantha was extremely far from Zhaitan's territory, and it never directly threatened it except sending minions to its coast. Most of its battles were fight in the areas directly surrounding Orr, including a never ending battle with other undead on the landbridge to Elona that we never see in game. On top of this, just one Eye of the Ocean (blue water orb) was enough to grant the Pact victory over Zhaitan, and Keining had dozens of them so it would've been an extremely bad idea to attack it drectly.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Mariyuuna.6508

[maxwelgm.4315]

The lore justifications were already given. The practical justification really is: the writers wanted to move away from the dragon lore and all plots related to elder dragons and the result is burying as much as they could as fast as they could.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

The lore justifications were already given. The practical justification really is: the writers wanted to move away from the dragon lore and all plots related to elder dragons and the result is burying as much as they could as fast as they could.

Okay?

I'm not sure what that really adds to it, as the lore reasons are more then enough. Cantha was far away from Orr and thus not directly or actively attacked, the whole "Zhaitan dead" is undoubtedly brought up by the delegation while your are knocked out, and wouldn't really mean a huge boost in the PC's favor.

I do find it odd when people just put in "The writers were ending the dragon story so Zhaitan plays no major role in EoD". Obviously the writers chose to move away from the elder dragons by killing off the last, and all the related plots to the elder dragons aren't buried and gone, especially when they so heavily laced kaineng with references and mentions of the Risen nest in the old Imperial palace.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 1/13/2023 at 2:05 PM, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Since Zhaitan destroyed much of old Cantha, shouldn't both the empress and locals be given an update on that dragon, while letting them know the Pact and I were responsible for it?

Or is there something that I missed because that would've been perfect for political leverage and a word of caution of the prowess outside of Cantha. 

They've known about Zhaitan's death, as its death caused the jade sea to glow a more toxic green rather than its original deep blue-green from GW1. There's a dialogue referencing that in Dragon's End.

Soo-Won likely knew the moment each of her children died, given she was in mental communication with Aurene.

And it seems from the NPCs referring to the Commander as the Pact Commander, they had learned of the Pact's and Commander's deeds during our time unconscious. Joon might have even found out quite a bit of stuff from the PS from Mai Trin, even.

16 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

SPOILERS FOR PERSONAL STORY, PATH OF FIRE, LIVING WORLD SEASON 4 AND END OF DRAGONS

They already know, it was confirmed a long time ago the Order of Whispers still had contact with both Cantha and Elona, though cooperation with Elona was strained due to the Order of Shadows' origin.

Unless I misremember, the Order of Whispers only had access to Elona - not Cantha. And even that access went away with the (PoF-led soft retcon) of the schism that created the Order of Shadows - the Whispers only recently got access again with PoF events as indicated in the book collections.

16 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Its just people in general didn't visit these regions because the best transport method was by water and traversing the waters to other continents was extremely dangerous with the elder dragons around. Many still did, however, like the Olmakahn. The only reason it became safer is because of airships and a general thinning-out of dragon minions  (few of which are aerial to begin with).

It's quite a bit more than that.

Tyrian nations officially outlawed travel to Elona after Joko's rise, and Joko himself outlawed anyone leaving (and even built a wall to keep his people in) while he was indoctrinating them. Cantha had not only their own Ministry of Purity-led isolation, but also the Black Fleet of Zhaitan (which is stated to still be an issue in EoD), but also the deep sea ~~dragon~~ horrors that prevented the few ships they sent north from reaching Tyria/Elona.

It's much, much more than "just people in general didn't visit these reasons because dragons". Zhaitan was a major factor, but there were political reasons why trade didn't immediately open up the moment Zhaitan was killed.

[Jimbru.6014]

Military intelligence works both ways. The Order of Whispers had contact with Cantha; no doubt Cantha also had  agents out in the larger world. It therefore seems reasonable to think that Cantha's leadership knew at least a little about the Elder Dragons and other major events outside Cantha. It also seems reasonable to think that incomplete knowledge influenced their decisions toward keeping Cantha isolated in the interest of national safety, for longer than they otherwise might have. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said:

Military intelligence works both ways. The Order of Whispers had contact with Cantha;

You're the second person in this thread to say this, but I have zero recollection of the Order of Whispers having contact with Cantha, and I cannot find it on either Cantha's or Order of Whispers' wiki pages. It's not mentioned in the Movement of the World either, which told us the Order of Whispers had contact with Elona - instead it states the sole source of "contact" with Cantha is the occasional dead or insane sailor washing ashore with wreckage, which was restated in the IBS magazine, as happening in Elona too.

 

So I have to ask: Got a source?

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 1/15/2023 at 11:36 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

They've known about Zhaitan's death, as its death caused the jade sea to glow a more toxic green rather than its original deep blue-green from GW1. There's a dialogue referencing that in Dragon's End.

Ah, I definitely missed that detail trying to rush the last chapters.

Edit: Also going through chapters 2 & 3 and yeah, they for sure know about the pact.

Edited January 18, 2023 by cyberzombie.7348

[Kalavier.1097]

14 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Ah, I definitely missed that detail trying to rush the last chapters.

Edit: Also going through chapters 2 & 3 and yeah, they for sure know about the pact.

Being fair, it's easy to miss. It's dialogue from an NPC on the southern end of Dragon's End, so you have to find them yourself vs being involved in a story instance.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Zhaitan didn't mean to destroy Kaineng and the coast of Cantha. He only woke up and rose Orr to the surface, not bothering about the consequences it had. Furthermore, the Canthans wanted to be in isolation and has been even before Orr rose from the bottom of the sea.  The ministries and empress had ways of getting info and knew this allready. Isolating doesn't mean you have to be blinded.

[EdwinLi.1284]

On 1/19/2023 at 7:05 AM, mercury ranique.2170 said:

Zhaitan didn't mean to destroy Kaineng and the coast of Cantha. He only woke up and rose Orr to the surface, not bothering about the consequences it had. Furthermore, the Canthans wanted to be in isolation and has been even before Orr rose from the bottom of the sea.  The ministries and empress had ways of getting info and knew this allready. Isolating doesn't mean you have to be blinded.

The Zephyrites, if I remember right, are mentioned to stop by Cantha once in a while so no doubt they got whatever news from outside of Cantha they can get during their yearly visits as well. 

The one time a year visits may have made it a bit difficult to keep up with what news the Zephyrites knew about though.

Edited January 21, 2023 by EdwinLi.1284