Power vs. Condition Builds... the Major imbalances

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Yasai.3549 said:

phase breaking also affects power

I *know* you are maximal bad faith pretending not to understand this right now, so I will explain for the benefit of the audience.
Power build attacks, hits, deals damage, bam, done. 
Condi build attacks, hits, applies condition, condition starts ticking, it trickles in damage, and then, half a minute later, done.
When a boss breaks phase, *all* of the power damage done to it is done. It's still there. 
Condi damage, however, gets shafted in one of two ways: Boss is invulnerable to everything for a while, and the conditions just tick away harmlessly, or the conditions are entirely wiped off.
I hope, kindly reader, that you can understand now how this behaviour uniquely affects condi builds and the mechanisms that condi builds use to inflict damage.

4 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

All you're doing is coming off as someone who has extreme bias toward Condition damage.

That's rich, coming from the guy that wants toughness and weakness to hamper condition damage.

[Jobber.6348]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Condi damage, however, gets shafted in one of two ways: Boss is invulnerable to everything for a while, and the conditions just tick away harmlessly, or the conditions are entirely wiped off.
I hope, kindly reader, that you can understand now how this behaviour uniquely affects condi builds and the mechanisms that condi builds use to inflict damage.

Pre-stack Condi = my stacks are ready to go once phase begins.
Power = does 0 damage while phase is prepping/breakbar to begin phase

Phase starts: Pre-stack gets an instantly boost in DPS and continues to stack. 

And since you already acknowledged toughness, some bosses have more toughness than others. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

That's rich, coming from the guy that wants toughness and weakness to hamper condition damage.

I find it an enjoyable past time to annoy Condi lovers. In case you didn't catch my earlier post which was dripping with sarcasm, I even announced it was "time to make some Condi players mad" 

I'm having a good ol time from this thread. 

 

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Pre-stack Condi = my stacks are ready to go once phase begins.
Power = does 0 damage while phase is prepping/breakbar to begin phase

jfc, you...
Wait, I am having difficulty actually accepting the fact that you think this.
A boss is invulnerable but targetable, meaning you can attack it and deal 0 damage, and inflict conditions that inflict 0 damage, but once he becomes harmable, the conditions already on him, which have lost damage due to ticks on invul state, now actually getting to deal their damage... is an advantage of condition damage builds?

4 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

some bosses have more toughness than others. 

Some have less. The aforementioned KC, for example, who is a boss that is *so heavily biased* for power damage it's not even funny.

5 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I find it an enjoyable past time to annoy Condi lovers. In case you didn't catch my earlier post which was dripping with sarcasm, I even announced it was "time to make some Condi players mad" 

I'm having a good ol time from this thread. 

Oh god, dude, no, you're... you're being the meme now. 
Just...
Yeah, sure, okay, good job. High marks. Bravo. 

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid being rude to other players.
Regards.

[solemn.9670]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I *know* you are maximal bad faith pretending not to understand this right now, so I will explain for the benefit of the audience.
Power build attacks, hits, deals damage, bam, done. 
Condi build attacks, hits, applies condition, condition starts ticking, it trickles in damage, and then, half a minute later, done.
When a boss breaks phase, *all* of the power damage done to it is done. It's still there. 
Condi damage, however, gets shafted in one of two ways: Boss is invulnerable to everything for a while, and the conditions just tick away harmlessly, or the conditions are entirely wiped off.
I hope, kindly reader, that you can understand now how this behaviour uniquely affects condi builds and the mechanisms that condi builds use to inflict damage.

That's rich, coming from the guy that wants toughness and weakness to hamper condition damage.

You're describing PvE.

Who cares about PvE 😹

Anyway on the actual points being made above my post here, if the condition is easily spammed/stackable i.e. use some low cooldown weapon skills followed by autoattacks then I can see how that's slightly better. But yeah power damage is more easily capitalized on.

Seriously condi vs power as a conversation only makes sense in a pvp/WvW context. PvE it's just damage and you're not dying stupidly to some guy facerolling their keyboard on Necro etc. So lol

Edited January 31, 2023 by solemn.9670

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

You're describing PvE.

Who cares about PvE

Hello.
Welcome to the thread.
I hope you find it nice and comfortable.
Once you get situated and get your bearings, please take the time to realize that WE HAVE ALREADY GONE THROUGH THE PVP SIDE OF THINGS, AND PEOPLE BITCHED ABOUT THIS BEING ABOUT PVE
Enjoy your stay 😉

[solemn.9670]

15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Hello.
Welcome to the thread.
I hope you find it nice and comfortable.
Once you get situated and get your bearings, please take the time to realize that WE HAVE ALREADY GONE THROUGH THE PVP SIDE OF THINGS, AND PEOPLE BITCHED ABOUT THIS BEING ABOUT PVE
Enjoy your stay 😉

Lmao sorry

[Cuks.8241]

Its balanced, scepter catalyst works great on either condi (well hybrid) or power. 

[Stx.4857]

Honestly this topic got more attention than I thought it would.  Here are a few points after reading through it.

 

1)  This is talking about taking PvE builds and going into Open World with them, this has nothing to do with PvP (although it is fine to discuss the effects of any suggested changes in PvP as that is relevant).

2)  A number of people have mentioned that precision is already an important stat for Condi builds.  I will counter with this:  Not all specs have a trait at all that applies condis from crits, and also my argument is that Power builds lose MUCH MORE damage from losing Fury than condi builds do.  This is relevant because there are mobs in EoD and PoF that strip boons.

3)  The reason I didn't mention Resolution is because Protection exists, meaning the counters to both types of builds have counters.  Maybe I should list here as well that FAR MORE mobs in the world have protection than resolution (another imbalance).

4)  Someone raised the point that a large source of this imbalance is Rune set bonuses, sigils, and modifiers from traits.  This is an excellent point and something I forgot to mention in the OP.

5)  Not everyone cares about the Open world, I get that.  But its a huge portion of the content of this game and content that many players enjoy (dare I say the majority) and contrary to popular statement, its not all easy especially when there aren't lots of players on the map.

6) A number of people have mentioned Hybrid or celestial builds being effective and this isn't the same as Condi.  I would argue otherwise, my proof being that if you take celestial gear and make a power build, it will ALWAYS perform worse than a condi based celestial build of the same class.  Most celestial builds I have seen are built as condi being the main source of damage due to this.  This actually strengthens my argument..  as far as condi needing less stats to deal good damage.

7) Several people have mentioned cleanses as a huge counter to condi that power has no equivalent of.  Fair enough!  But as I mentioned, mobs in PvE very rarely cleanse conditions.  I can't even think of any off the top of my head although I'm sure some do.  You know what I can remember off the top of my head?  Mobs that strip boons and apply weakness...  because that trashes power build damage.  

8 ) A few people have mentioned that Power builds are better in the Open world and condition builds take longer to kill things.  I would completely disagree, and as I mentioned already, Power builds outperform Condi builds when fighting packs of weak enemies, and even veterans.  But #1, Condi Builds can burst too, dealing 10k-20k burning ticks in small amounts of time, and #2, why play a build that is only good at killing weak enemies?  Condi builds are superior in situations where you actually may die, and against harder to kill mobs like champions, meta bosses, multiple elites, etc.  

 

Thats the point of the thread.  Power Builds are simply punished harder when leaving a group and trying to play solo.  Which doesn't make sense and can be frustrating.

 

Thank you to all who are participating and being constructive (which is most)

Edited February 1, 2023 by Stx.4857
Apparently 8 with a parenthesis is a sunglasses emoji - I'm old

[The Boz.2038]

8 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

But #1, Condi Builds can burst too, dealing 10k-20k burning ticks

Lol.
Rofl, even.
The hardest bursting condi builds still take several seconds to get to their "high tick", and that "high tick" is still ~half to two-thirds of what a power build generates.

[Dadnir.5038]

Why bother with:

10 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

3)  The reason I didn't mention Resolution is because Protection exists, meaning the counters to both types of builds have counters.  Maybe I should list here as well that FAR MORE mobs in the world have protection than resolution (another imbalance).

If you say:

10 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

1)  This is talking about taking PvE builds and going into Open World

?

Consideration about protection and resolution only matter in competitive modes.

11 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

Condi Builds can burst too, dealing 10k-20k burning ticks in small amounts of time

You realize that this amount of damage can be done by almost any "Power" build AA (at a faster rate without needing any ramp up)? In open world you can't really call 10k-20k a "burst". 

[Asum.4960]

On 2/1/2023 at 2:31 AM, Stx.4857 said:

4)  Someone raised the point that a large source of this imbalance is Rune set bonuses, sigils, and modifiers from traits.  This is an excellent point and something I forgot to mention in the OP.

6) A number of people have mentioned Hybrid or celestial builds being effective and this isn't the same as Condi.  I would argue otherwise, my proof being that if you take celestial gear and make a power build, it will ALWAYS perform worse than a condi based celestial build of the same class.  Most celestial builds I have seen are built as condi being the main source of damage due to this.  This actually strengthens my argument..  as far as condi needing less stats to deal good damage.

I tried to explain both of those in the same post before.

 

To give some backround for those who haven't been here since launch, since I think it's important to not just understand the how it is, but also the why:

Strike Damage/Power was really the only way to do DPS proper at launch - Conditions were more just ancillary effects on some skills, and prior to the big Condi rework in 2015 only stacked to 25 stacks (now 1500), so they were pretty bad to build around (and a pain to progress through the original game with, given how much things were immune to some or even all Conditions), as even just one "condi build" would reach that stack limit, let alone two condi players or a mass of them in something like an OW zerg. 

If you wanted to do damage, especially in a group setting, you were using what is now referred to as Strike Damage - for the first years of GW2 it didn't even have a distinction/name, Power was just what dealing Damage was.

 

With the game originally being designed around Damage being Power, when Condi then became an actually (somewhat) viable way of doing DPS as well with the big 2015 patch/rework, it got layered on top of the original Power/Strike Damage framework, becoming hybrid by nature. 

Power was still pure Power +Precision and Ferocity, Condi was Conditions + Power +Expertise, Precision, Ferocity. 

So really, there are just Power builds and Hybrid Builds in GW2. There is not a single "Pure Condi Build" in the game that is as purely Condition Damage as pretty much all Strike Damage builds are pure Power (Condi Scourge might be the closest to an exception, doing almost 92% Condition Damage on even Viper's - one of the few builds that might actually get a noticeable damage boost if a pure Condi stat set existed).

 

Now ofc much has changed over the last 7+ years since, and Conditions came to be more and more their own thing, with more dedicated stat sets, dedicated condi traits/reworks/rebalances, new Runes, Sigils etc., in an attempt to make them a thing after the fact - but it's still nowhere near the same or "as pure" as Strike Damage. 

It's no accident that Viper's, the Meta Condi DPS stat set, is the definition of a hybrid set, featuring both Power and Condition Damage, and Precision and Expertise equally - while the pure Power Berserkers has remained meta for Strike Damage builds since launch (and a hybridised set with a Power focus, like Grieving, has seen relatively little success/use instead).

 

So keeping that in mind, it's not at all surprising which of Power or Hybrid (Condi) is more flexiable in terms of Traits  or would scale better with an all stat set (the ultimate hybrid set) like Celestial. 

The builds that scale with Condition Damage, Expertise, Precision, Power, Ferocity and in some cases even Vitality - or the builds that just scale in Damage with Power, Precision and Ferocity? 

 

So when you are using a stat set like Celestials which provides all stats (and a combined greater amount of them, but less specialised in particular stats), of course builds that scale of off more different stats, see Condi builds which really are hybrid, will pretty much always fare better with that than the far more pure Power Builds - using Weapons with skillsets that largely just inflict Strike Damage and Traits that largely just multiply Strike Damage.

 

So the conclusion of "condi needing less stats to deal good damage" is kind of on it's head, at least in relation to why they scale better with Celestial - Condi builds, due to how they came to be layered onto the existing massively Power focused vanilla framework, scale with more stats (and are dependant on less multipliers) - rather than that they need less stats (although otherwise that conclusion isn't technically untrue, at least for some builds).

Pretty much all skills in the game inflict at least some Strike Damage, only some skills inflict Conditions - ergo, builds with a Condition focus/kit as baseline hybridise better with sets like Celestial, since they utilize more of those stats to much greater extend. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

19 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Lol.
Rofl, even.
The hardest bursting condi builds still take several seconds to get to their "high tick", and that "high tick" is still ~half to two-thirds of what a power build generates.

That's part of what I was thinking.  Point 8 is where I decided that there's not much point to this thread.  Anyone who's played the game knows that there's a lot of subtleties to how builds do their damage, and it is impossible to make blanket assertions that condi has burst.  The fastest burst condi spec, firebrand, requires additional allies for Ashes of the Just, and it requires enemies stand around in Purging Flames + Scorched Earth for their entire durations to get those damage numbers out.  While firebrand waits for all those conditions to be applied then tick away, Dragonhunter could use Symbol of Resolution, Procession of Blades, and Whirling Wrath to hit for somewhere between 100k to 150k damage with no waiting for conditions to tick down.  

If I wanted to be really annoying, I would've brought up pre-charging Dragon Trigger on Bladesworn.  That hits enemies for over 100k damage for the first strike of the fight.  It's enough to instantly kill anything below a silver.  I've been using that strategy to delete enemy waves as they spawn.  Sure, there's the whole pre-charging ritual, but in the right circumstances the time spent getting that charge can effectively be ignored.  So I wonder how someone can say that condi has burst damage while also watching a Bladesworn decapitate an entire group of enemies in one shot.  

[Stx.4857]

Bladesworn is one of the only Power specs in the game that can perform at the same level in the open world as condi builds.  Vindicator is another.  Mainly because their damage stays high outside of a group moreso than other power builds and also because their kit is nice defensively.  

 

My point wasn't that condi can burst as fast as power... please try to understand the point.  The point is that the ONLY advantage power has in bursting weaker enemies..  condi doesn't struggle to kill those enemies either.  Also, I challenge you to find a clip of a power build bursting as hard as the previously linked trailblazer weaver killing balthazar HP.  

[The Boz.2038]

35 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

Bladesworn is one of the only Power specs in the game that can perform at the same level in the open world as condi builds

OK, thank you for this.
Now we know what reality you are coming from.
We don't seem to share it.

[Asum.4960]

On 2/2/2023 at 8:36 AM, Stx.4857 said:

Bladesworn is one of the only Power specs in the game that can perform at the same level in the open world as condi builds.  Vindicator is another.  Mainly because their damage stays high outside of a group moreso than other power builds and also because their kit is nice defensively.  

 

My point wasn't that condi can burst as fast as power... please try to understand the point.  The point is that the ONLY advantage power has in bursting weaker enemies..  condi doesn't struggle to kill those enemies either.  Also, I challenge you to find a clip of a power build bursting as hard as the previously linked trailblazer weaver killing balthazar HP.  

I think a primary issue with your points/conclusions is that you are glossing over a vast amount of subtleties, and most importantly, it's not quite clear if we are talking about Power- vs. Condition Damage itself, or the design of the "average" Power- vs. Condition Damage Build - and what that average even is.

Besides minutiae like Power Renegade having been the king of OW/solo play for years before the Battle Scar nerfs, Power Reaper being a fantastic solo/OW build right now since the GS/LF and Shroud Degen buffs, or Vindicator, while a fantastic pDPS, in my experience actually not being a great solo spec (at least on Power, ironically Celestial Condi Vindicator is pretty good solo though), etc., it's also a bit silly to say that Power builds "just" have the advantage of bursting weaker enemies from an OW PoV (which isn't entirely true), when those enemies make up >95% of the gamemode. 

 

Everything has it's pros and cons (which if anything is indicative of balance) - as elaborated on before, since Strike/Instant Damage is inherently superior to Condition/Delayed Damage (for various reasons, as also stated before), Condition Builds often get compensation in form of things like better DPS-Uptime (such as range), which allows them to catch the Burst of Power Builds in extended fights. 

DPS-Uptime/Range in turn is a big advantage in niche endeavours like soloing really tough encounters, through increased DPS while avoiding mechanics solely focused on that one player, and/or ability to avoid damage through kiting. 

So from a purely Open World point of view, what's "better" - builds (generally power) that clear >95% of the content that's easier much faster, or builds (usually Condi/Hybrid) that have an easier time with the harder <5%?

 

As for finding a power build that bursts as hard as that Trailblazer Weaver - that would be about almost every single power build in existence, multiplied by some. If I was savvy with video making, I'd make you some. 

 

Anyway, at this stage of the discussion I feel we run the risk of just talking past each other, with people coming in from different viewpoints (gamemodes, specific builds) using the same words with different understandings of their definitions (Condi/Power as damage types and their implications, Condi/Power Builds and their general design conventions), etc. 

It has just become too broad of a conversation to make accurate statements, as there are too many subtleties at play in a game this vast.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Asum.4960

[Jobber.6348]

16 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Pretty much all skills in the game inflict at least some Strike Damage, only some skills inflict Conditions - ergo, builds with a Condition focus/kit as baseline hybridise better with sets like Celestial, since they utilize more of those stats to much greater extend.

Soooo Condi builds use stats much better with the stat spread than Power builds do using all its stats split into 3. Kinda sucks for Power tbh, to be fundamentally inefficient in the build game. 

I also want to mention the Might boon, which gives both Power and Condition damage, and large amounts at that when stacked to 25. While a Condi build will actually fully utilize both Power and Condition from the boon due to the Strike nature of their Condi application, the Condi stat is wasted entirely on Power builds who do not apply Conditions. Maybe the solution here is to give Power dedicated traitlines a much much stronger "Might converter".

Some traits already exhibit this sort of effect, with Necro Spite's Awaken the Pain or Rev Deva's Notoriety. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

10 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

Bladesworn is one of the only Power specs in the game that can perform at the same level in the open world as condi builds.  Vindicator is another.  Mainly because their damage stays high outside of a group moreso than other power builds and also because their kit is nice defensively.  

 

My point wasn't that condi can burst as fast as power... please try to understand the point.  The point is that the ONLY advantage power has in bursting weaker enemies..  condi doesn't struggle to kill those enemies either.  Also, I challenge you to find a clip of a power build bursting as hard as the previously linked trailblazer weaver killing balthazar HP.  

I once saw a power chrono do that HP in 38 seconds.  Pretty close.

[Stx.4857]

16 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

OK, thank you for this.
Now we know what reality you are coming from.
We don't seem to share it.

That's fine, we can share different realities.  

Edited February 3, 2023 by Stx.4857

[Dawdler.8521]

On 2/1/2023 at 2:31 AM, Stx.4857 said:

7) Several people have mentioned cleanses as a huge counter to condi that power has no equivalent of.  Fair enough!  But as I mentioned, mobs in PvE very rarely cleanse conditions.  I can't even think of any off the top of my head although I'm sure some do.  You know what I can remember off the top of my head?  Mobs that strip boons and apply weakness...  because that trashes power build damage.  

Power has no counter eqvivalent to condi cleanse?

Pushes heal button.

[The Boz.2038]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:08 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Power has no counter eqvivalent to condi cleanse?

Pushes heal button.

Oh. Right.

People do froget that you can't heal condition damage.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Oh. Right.

People do froget that you can't heal condition damage.

Now there's a condition that people would really complain about!

[Kuma.1503]

The balance between power and condi is in a good spot in PvE. 

Power builds have less ramp, and pull ahead on fights with short phases, fights with many squishy mobs, and in high end comps where players can co-ordinate their burst. 

Condi builds have more ramp, but feature more build variety, being able to take Cele, Plaguedoctor, and Ritualist stats for more bulk/support with less of a trade-off compared to power builds. They shine in less experienced groups due to longer phases, and require less co-ordination to get value out of break bars. 

 

In PvP, the pendulum swings back and forth. Currently we're in a power heavy meta. Fresh Air Cata, Hammer SpB, Power Vindi, Power Herald, Untamed, Tools/Nade Holosmith, and the occasional Willbender are all popular picks. All are power focused. 

WvW is where the balance breaks, and the majority of the problem comes from Cele stats. If you play a build/class that can take advantage of all the stats (E.g. Druid, Harbinger, Willbender) you will stat check someone building for pure power. The closest thing power builds have is Marauder with durabilty runes. 

Trailblazer is also strong, but the complete lack of power stats and concentration is a bigger trade-off than Cele for most builds. 

 

We could make this better by introducing more power stat sets. Power/Precision/Toughness/Ferocity is one that immediately comes to mind. Another is Diviner stats, but with weighted Precision/Ferocity instead of Concentration. 

Reducing the amount of stats Cele gives in WvW only would also go a long way toward making power more satisfying to play again. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[coro.3176]

16 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

We could make this better by introducing more power stat sets. Power/Precision/Toughness/Ferocity is one that immediately comes to mind. Another is Diviner stats, but with weighted Precision/Ferocity instead of Concentration. 

Reducing the amount of stats Cele gives in WvW only would also go a long way toward making power more satisfying to play again. 

This always comes off as strange to me, because outside of roaming builds, most WvW players already run power. Condi is pretty useless in large fights with the exception of ranger's repeating immobilize. If you hit someone with power damage in a big fight, you'll probably land at least half of it (losing some from armor & protection). If you hit someone with a condition in a big fight, you'll be lucky if it lasts for more than a single tick. You won't even get 10% of a condition's value most times.

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

This always comes off as strange to me, because outside of roaming builds, most WvW players already run power. Condi is pretty useless in large fights with the exception of ranger's repeating immobilize. If you hit someone with power damage in a big fight, you'll probably land at least half of it (losing some from armor & protection). If you hit someone with a condition in a big fight, you'll be lucky if it lasts for more than a single tick. You won't even get 10% of a condition's value most times.

Exponential gains. Anything above 1v1... condi loose effectiveness. Power gain effectiveness. Even for roaming like 8 out of 10 meta builds are cele or power. It is competetive up to a point but once you start going into smallscale then power just roflstomps all over condi. Reinforcement from a +1 "glassy" judge willbender that can almost instakill 5 people at once will kind of beat a staff mirage that has barely begun attacking in the same time, even if the latter could outsustain it in a long fight. At anything above 5v5 of course everyone has their own personal pocket minstrel firebrand or aurashare tempest and individual condi damage become near useless.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Dawdler.8521