Unofficial 2/3/2023 Balance Patch Preview For Thief Discussion!

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Keep it civil! NERFS will be UNDERLINED

Thief

Rifle saw some improvements in the last balance update, but it's still outshined by dagger in most power deadeye builds. We do want rifle to be a viable pick, and we're bumping up the damage a bit more. We've also made a usability improvement to Deadeye's Mark, which will no longer be lost when entering the downed state.

Specter is another support build in PvE that struggles with might generation compared to some other options. We've shifted the self-only might from Shadow Sap into area-of-effect might and bumped up the might on Well of Bounty with the goal of making alacrity-focused specter builds more competitive.

Core

• Signets of Power: This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated.
• Signet of Malice: Reduced cooldown from 15 seconds to 12 seconds.
• Signet of Shadows: Reduced cooldown from 20 seconds to 16 seconds.
• Infiltrator's Signet: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Trickster: This trait no longer reduces the cooldown of trick skills. Increased the number of conditions removed from 1 to 2.
• Caltrops: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds.
• Haste: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 24 seconds in PvE, and from 45 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Roll for Initiative: Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvE, and from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced initiative gain from 6 to 4 in PvP and WvW.
• Skelk Venom: Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds.
• Keen Observer: Reduced health threshold requirement from 90% to 75% in PvE only.

Daredevil

• Steal is no longer replaced by Swipe when the daredevil specialization is equipped.
• Impairing Daggers: Reduced cooldown from 25 seconds to 18 seconds.
• Impact Strike: Reduced cooldown from 40 seconds to 30 seconds.

Deadeye

• Deadeye's Mark is no longer removed when the deadeye goes into the downed state.
• Brutal Aim: Increased power coefficient from 0.6 to 0.75 in PvE only.
• Deadly Aim: Increased power coefficient from 1.0 to 1.1 in PvE only.
• Skirmisher's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 0.8 to 1.0 in PvE only.
• Spotter's Shot: Increased power coefficient from 1.15 to 1.3 in PvE only.
• Double Tap: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.65 to 0.8 in PvE only.
• Three Round Burst: Increased power coefficient per hit from 0.75 to 0.85 in PvE only.
• Shadow Meld: This skill no longer removes revealed in PvP and WvW.
  .................................................HUGE.......................................................................................................

Specter

• Shadow Sap: The enemy-targeted version of this skill now grants might in an area around the specter. The ally-targeted version of this skill now grants protection.
• Well of Silence: This skill has been reworked. It now dazes enemies on the initial strike, then removes conditions from allies in the area on each pulse. Gain shadow force for each condition removed. Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.
• Well of Bounty: Increased might stacks from 6 to 8 in PvE only.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Infusion.7149]

Haha so quick. It's mostly cooldown decreases. Minor rifle coefficient buffs for PVE deadeye.

Also swipe no longer has shorter range.

PVP/WVW Shadow meld no longer removes reveal is big though (for WVW).

Minor might generation improvement for scepter on specter (shadow sap).

Edited February 3, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Haha so quick. It's mostly cooldown decreases. Minor rifle coefficient buffs for PVE deadeye.

Also swipe no longer has shorter range.

PVP/WVW Shadow meld no longer removes reveal is big though (for WVW).

Minor might generation improvement for scepter on specter (shadow sap).

Shadow Meld is not worthy of elite skill now...needs more ammo....why the heck?!

 

[Doggie.3184]

Nothing too exciting. Thief needs more AoE damage so our weapons aren't only useful against PvE bosses with no adds and the two people who play it to 1v1 in Spvp. We'll never have a WvW Zerg build or get to use anything that isn't a shortbow in general PvE.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

4 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Nothing too exciting. Thief needs more AoE damage so our weapons aren't only useful against PvE bosses with no adds and the two people who play it to 1v1 in Spvp. We'll never have a WvW Zerg build or get to use anything that isn't a shortbow in general PvE.

zerg support on specter MAYBE with spammy prot and well cleanses but they still didnt address utility, at least in the stream. still have to spam wells for the alacrity.

im still peeved about Shadow Meld, its still not worth taking in wvw/pvp now.

[Nomad.4301]

14 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Also swipe no longer has shorter range.

The change is more of a nerf to the unblockable nature of Swipe, which was way better in PvP/WvW than having extra range.

[Doggie.3184]

8 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

zerg support on specter MAYBE with spammy prot and well cleanses but they still didnt address utility, at least in the stream. still have to spam wells for the alacrity.

im still peeved about Shadow Meld, its still not worth taking in wvw/pvp now.

It's just not and still wont be after the patch. These changes are just to buff us for Strike Missions rather than letting us have fun in other areas. And WvW has sooooooo much revealed spam to the point of shutting us completely out of entire zones cuz of Radar and how easy groups can spam it nonstop~ Shadow Meld removing revealed was it's main purpose and basically the only reason to even use Deadeye most of the time, the spec is awful. I can't build a Radar on a tower that prevents people from spamming block and invulnerability back to back. 

And I'll say it for the 100th time: Why is Pistol/Pistol and Rifle the same weapon set? Gimme back Ricochet.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

8 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

It's just not and still wont be after the patch. These changes are just to buff us for Strike Missions rather than letting us have fun in other areas. And WvW has sooooooo much revealed spam to the point of shutting us completely out of entire zones cuz of Radar and how easy groups can spam it nonstop~ Shadow Meld removing revealed was it's main purpose and basically the only reason to even use Deadeye most of the time, the spec is awful. I can't build a Radar on a tower that prevents people from spamming block and invulnerability back to back. 

And I'll say it for the 100th time: Why is Pistol/Pistol and Rifle the same weapon set? Gimme back Ricochet.

yes Ricochet!

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

The issue with revealed being removed as well wasnt just defensive but also helped us chain and switch targets to Deadeye's Mark with Mercy to regain stealth Attack ability AFTER revealing ourselves...it makes no sense and was NOT thought out at all.

[SehferViega.8725]

I can only see nerf for thieves in PvP / WvW:

1) Trickster won't reduce Tricks skills cooldown anymore , but Withdraw doesn't get a base cooldown reduction and Dagger Storm neither. The +1 condition removed is quite useless on a class that has no problems on condi cleaning.

 

2) Roll for Initiative will regenarete 4 initiative instead of 6.

 

3) Swipe/Steal: Daredevil will lost unblockable steal, that's a huge nerf, and one of its core mechanics: it will be a thief with just different dodges.

 

4) Shadow Meld: it won't remove Revealed anymore, becoming basically a Blinding Powder that doesn't blind. Deadeyes will play Dagger Storm or Basilisk Venom. Another core mechanics killed.
 

In the meanwhile without Shadow Arts and Trickery thieves really struggle with initiative costs and Pulmonary Impact is still a joke (and it will be even worse without unblockable Swipe).

[Doggie.3184]

Also they're giving our Single Target Healing mechanic to another class, Ele Water Staff 1, but like Druid it's AoE and their specs already has AoE heals so again, why are they so anti-AoE with us? They basically take every request we have and give it to other classes.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Nomad.4301]

Well of Silence: This skill has been reworked. It now dazes enemies on the initial strike, then removes conditions from allies in the area on each pulse. Gain shadow force for each condition removed. Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.

I guess Anet missed the memo on this one because thieves don't have the luxury of using our wells as actual utilities when playing support, and using a condi-cleanse on CD instead of situationally makes it near worthless, while nerfing it big time in PvP/WvW, going to throw this one in the closet with "Well of Blood" now.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

Regarding the wells as utility DarkstarChimaera already posted somewhere a build and gear combo that allows you to have room to use wells more reactive so it is somewhat viable.

But (big but) re-gearing for everyone that does not have full legendary armory and still needs to put in a lot of time and effort to be efficient while you could provide better support with HAM while being semi afk and technically no designated gear requirement is like the pinnacle of a joke.

Anet: „Hey we are giving thief a support spec that doesn’t play like a thief anymore (and nobody asked for at least not in this design) in EoD and by the way we gonna make it so bad nobody wants it“

Edited February 3, 2023 by Felices Bladewing.3914

[Crab Fear.8623]

Dang, lol.

Seems like straight nerfs for all thief specs.

 

[kash.9213]

I would have liked a reason for getting rid of swipe. Maybe they gave one on the stream.

Shadow Meld really didn't need Revealed removal. I think that change was for the better in the long run, for lack of changing the Elite to something more signature.

I like the Shadow Sap changes so far, will have to see how it plays out but that sounds a lot more useable and effective. 

13 minutes ago, Nomad.4301 said:

Well of Silence: This skill has been reworked. It now dazes enemies on the initial strike, then removes conditions from allies in the area on each pulse. Gain shadow force for each condition removed. Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.

I guess Anet missed the memo on this one because thieves don't have the luxury of using our wells as actual utilities when playing support, and using a condi-cleanse on CD instead of situationally makes it near worthless, while nerfing it big time in PvP/WvW, going to throw this one in the closet with "Well of Blood" now.

I kind of agree on Well of Silence. I like that change, but I also would like Alacrity to be fed through something else because it's hard to be clutch with Well modifiers if they're being used off cooldown straight through most of the time.

[SehferViega.8725]

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

 

• Signets of Power: This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated.

 

Please, specifie that Signets of Power will grant 1 initiative when a signet skill will be activated.

And Steal will have 25 seconds cooldown.

[SehferViega.8725]

28 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

I would have liked a reason for getting rid of swipe. Maybe they gave one on the stream.

 

"We think it's too powerful", that's the reason.

[Zacchary.6183]

From an initial go-over of the list, these sweeping increases are small but the choices they made could help round out build choices. I don't expect them to make too much of an impact, however.

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Signets of Power: This trait has been reworked. It now causes signet skills to grant initiative when activated.

More initiative generation, combined with the reduced cooldowns, is nice. But I don't think it'll provide much impact to build diversity, only round it out. Signets are good for new thieves starting out and those who know how to utilize them. It may be a good choice to take SoP over the others if you plan on playing a passive build, but I personally like my Assassin's Fury a little more. But we'll see.

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Trickster: This trait no longer reduces the cooldown of trick skills. Increased the number of conditions removed from 1 to 2.

With this one, they essentially made the CD reduction baseline and increased the amount of condition cleanse it brings. Decent boost to help take cleanse burden off the profession for those slotting tricks.

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Roll for Initiative: Reduced cooldown from 35 seconds to 28 seconds in PvE, and from 50 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW. Reduced initiative gain from 6 to 4 in PvP and WvW.

Mathematically, this is a slight nerf in initiative gain and a slight buff in usage. Instead of getting 2 evasions/stun breaks and 12 initiative every 100 seconds, you get 3 evasions/stun breaks and 12 initiative every 105 seconds. Take that for what its worth. Personally think it's still worth the slot.

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Keen Observer: Reduced health threshold requirement from 90% to 75% in PvE only.

Good buff for glass cannons slotting CS, imho. While it translates to an extra ~1-2k hp for this trait, its enough to keep it from deactivating from chip damage better.

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Steal is no longer replaced by Swipe when the daredevil specialization is equipped.

This is a definite nerf. While the range is returned to 1200 units, it loses unblockable and has a longer cooldown, meaning the staple opener of thief can get easily countered with aegis. Thief would have to live with it, regardless, because steal can't be swapped out. 

As for the cooldown reductions of impairing daggers and impact strike, this is a plus for interrupt builds. Maybe we'll see more of them being played. They are pretty fun when you know what you're doing.

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Shadow Meld: This skill no longer removes revealed in PvP and WvW.

If I were to gleam anything positive from this, it would encourage non-thieves to add anti-stealth to their builds because now they don't have an excuse. So while this screws over thieves who use it, "git gud/stop sucking" retorts against thief complaints got a buff. Otherwise, this really only hurts deadeye. I don't think the ~20% buff in rifle skills is really going to help it that much if its just in PvE, but we'll see.

Quote

Shadow Sap: The enemy-targeted version of this skill now grants might in an area around the specter. The ally-targeted version of this skill now grants protection.

Now THAT will incentivize using ally-targeting on specter. Hopefully, they don't increase the CD of it. Can't wait to see how they handle it.

Quote

Well of Silence: This skill has been reworked. It now dazes enemies on the initial strike, then removes conditions from allies in the area on each pulse. Gain shadow force for each condition removed. Reduced cooldown from 50 seconds to 40 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Another good way to incentivize usage. For those using Traversing Dusk for shadow force gain, this will probably replace other utilities in some builds. Again, can't wait to try it out.

 

Overall, I give the notes a 7.5/10 for focusing on less appealing skills and traits and generally buffing them while simultaneously shaving off some strength of a select few others. Seems like more thought was put into them than usual and I appreciate that.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Zacchary.6183
forgot about specter buffs

[SehferViega.8725]

6 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

 

With this one, they essentially made the CD reduction baseline and increased the amount of condition cleanse it brings. Decent boost to help take cleanse burden off the profession for those slotting tricks.

 

They've made cooldowns reduction baseline, but not for Withdraw, Lesser Haste and Dagger Storm. That's a nerf of the trait.

 

6 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

This is a definite nerf. While the range is returned to 1200 units, it loses unblockable and has a longer cooldown.

 

Steal cooldown will be reduced from 30 sec to 25 seconds, so there won't be a longer cooldown.

 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Steal was always better than swipe because DP Daredevil. If you want unblockables, play sword.
 

This is probably the biggest change in the patch. It might bring back classic Daredevil gameplay…we will see

Edited February 3, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Vidit.7108]

They should split Steal/Swipe by game mode, it matters a lot that unblockable is lost in PvP/WvW and doesn't matter in PvE as much as getting the range back.

Well of Silence change is good for adding more condi cleanse to Specter but that's all that's really good about it and the rest is a wash. Shadow Sap doesn't have enough benefits versus it's cost so it will continue to not be used. They're really vague about how much might something should do but it seemed fine before. Overall in PvE these changes are so small and weak that it's another case of another balance patch without fixing any major issues with Thief or it's viability. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Vidit.7108

[SehferViega.8725]

17 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Steal was always better than swipe because DP Daredevil. If you want unblockables, play sword.
 

This is probably the biggest change in the patch. It might bring back classic Daredevil gameplay…we will see

 

One thing is good or bad depending on gameplay. 
1200 range was a thing when other classes were less mobile and daredevil used to have more mobility and a Backstab that hit 11-15k.. Now honestly I'd prefere by far 600range+unblockable Swipe, considering the amount of blocks and teleports.

"If you want 1200 range, play core" 

Edited February 3, 2023 by SehferViega.8725

[Doctor Hide.6345]

Will this really be enough for deadeye rifle though? I thought the problem was or more less the rooting down even with the change in the last patch.  The damage has always been good, but when most fights need you to move a lot, that is where the deadye becomes a pain the butt to play.

[Khlori.6209]

24 minutes ago, SehferViega.8725 said:

Steal cooldown will be reduced from 30 sec to 25 seconds, so there won't be a longer cooldown.

 

I hope you right, these few seconds can be quite big

Higher cd on F1 equals less initiative, less endurance, less reliable utility (some stolen skills in raids/strikes are amazing), less condis applied, just overall way less dps.

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Khlori.6209

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Just now, SehferViega.8725 said:

."If you want 1200 range, play core" 

 This is what people did post changes… playing core thief.

 

Something to consider is how 1200 range synergies a with all teleports and ranged weapons. 600 range swipe gimps thief to a staff range making it some weird 1v1 poser, when DP daredevil could win its 1v1s already by sheer mobility alone. 
 

You want an unblock-able 600 range opener…imagine my reaction seeing derpy thief hobble up to get in 600 range to get close enough to open on me. 
 

I’ve played thief for a long time at high level and sorry but ur swipe gets dodged just like steal. Ur gonna wish u could have opened from a longer range.